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Krazyjane
04-20-2006, 12:42 AM
My parents tried to raise me Japanese, which isn't going to work in America. I'm a red blooded American kid at heart, and I was also grounded 2/3 of my life. They're a lot easier on my siblings now, and encourage extracurricular activities. I get so mad, and when I go back home, I try to reimpose karma by screaming at the twins b/c they bitch about having to take out the trash when at their age, I was babysitting, running errands, doing dishes 3x a day, keeping my grades up, dealing with mom in her pre-Paxil days, etc.

Conflict occurs when people try to instill the "Good old-fashioned traditional values" into today. This is not to say that today is worse than those days (things were simply swept under the rug back then, IMHO, but it creates an anachronism.

francescadubois
04-20-2006, 12:45 AM
^^Jane, you're freaking me out. My mom has twins too...

Krazyjane
04-20-2006, 12:48 AM
SW: I'd like to announce that Francesca and I are actually the same person. Not really, but we're so much alike that it's scaring me...

sexysweet
04-20-2006, 04:53 AM
Wow! I am shocked at the anamosity being directed at this family.

None of us know that these children are in some way being neglected,and or traumatized because they are a large family.

My brother in law married a woman with 12 brothers and sisters who all get along incredibly well and if asked will tell you they could not imagine it any other way.

They are Catholic and my brother in law has 5 children of his own and I am sure will have a few more before it's all said and done.

His wife stays home,while he works but her brothers and sisters visit often and help with the kids.

I guess what I am getting at is the large family in this case workes to the advantage of the children. They are close to their grandparents,aunts uncles and cousins. They always have someone to play with, they are in sports, play instruments, do well in school and for the most part are very well behaved.

NoCoverLover
04-20-2006, 03:39 PM
The celebacy problem is easily fixed, since it only applies when you're not married. From the sounds of it, they'll probably just marry them all off early (maybe not at 14 like it was 200 yrs ago, but earlier than we would).

Then they can all get started on reeling off another 16 kids too!

ClaireBear84
05-20-2007, 03:02 PM
Just read that the mother is pregnant with baby number 17, just thought of that is crazy, but whatver floats the boat.

Lysondra
05-20-2007, 04:18 PM
^ I knew about that.

The truth is, if you've ever read about them - they're actually really well-adjusted children. They all take care of eachother. The mum sews all their clothing. Yeah, they're being raised very Christian and with silly outdated ideals - but they're probably the most polite children I've ever seen. Helpful and kind.

There's a lot worse people I can think to be having 17 children.

ClaireBear84
05-20-2007, 05:01 PM
Now that you metion that, your right, more power to the family. i've watched every TLC special show about the family.

Mastridonicus
05-20-2007, 05:31 PM
I'm the dad of number 8. shhhhhhhhh

Kaylinn
05-20-2007, 05:40 PM
I've seen this story. I watched it when it was raising 14 kids, and she was pregnant with the 15th. At the very end of the show..she got knocked up again with #16.
The family is loaded, somehow. The house they bult looked like a fuckin hotel. Complete with a restraunt quality kitchen and everything.
The kids don't go to school, she homeschools them...

Yeah..they are polite and well adjusted. But they are living like it's 100 years ago.
How will they survive in the real world when they grow up?
I can't see how they all will want to follow in their familys footsteps.

What if some of them actually want to go away for college? I highly doubt they are prepared for that. Unless they are only allowed to go to like, girls only Christian college.
I dont know. I don't like it.
17 kids? How many more to come?
I mean...this woman could reproduce for at least another 10 years. Not sure how old she is.

I just don't understand their Crhistian beliefs, I guess. I woudl say why can't they adopt some kids, instead of have that many naturally if they wanted an army. But they don't believe in birth control. I dont even think they use NFP, or else she would keep popping them out.
I guess I just don't understand. But I also highly disagree with certain Christian beliefs....

madmaxine
05-20-2007, 05:46 PM
It's sick and cruel to make a woman have that many children. My best friend (while growing up) came from a family of EIGHT kids & the doctor told her mom that she had damaged her body by having so many (they were very poor, she wasn't able to eat enough nutrients to replenish her body.) Their lives were horrible...for the majority of families with many children, resources get stretched thin.

My maternal grandmother had 16 children through her life but most of them died young & she was having them from her middle teens to mid-forties. This was in a Third World country.

Paintbaby
05-20-2007, 05:56 PM
This is just about their own vanity. I wonder if she'd be so eager to keep on popping them out if they didn't have their own TV show? Plus, no one's DNA is that bloody fabulous that they have to pass it on 17 times. Those girls are not going to have a chance at a regular life--they will become just more little breeders for "god's army" without ever being given an actual choice for a different life . So sad and sick.

Nothing would delight me more than if some of the daughters grow up to become lesbian, feminist, anarchistic strippers!:D

cherry_sin
05-20-2007, 06:02 PM
^^^^^ They'll have a great chance at what is a regular life for them.

Beleive it or not, just like you have "Little China" or "Little Mexico" where kids can grow up around people of their own culture, and, even grow up, never having to speak a word of English, or whatnot, there are plenty of opportunities for them to grow up as adults, date, marry, work, and play within what is acceptable to them.

We shouldn't be bigots about personal life choices when so many people do the same to us. Hypocritcal much?

Kaylinn
05-20-2007, 06:17 PM
But what if that isn't the life they want? What if they actually want a normal life like the rest of the world?

The Amish...when thoes kids come of age, they are sent out into the world for a few weeks. They have to CHOOSE to come back and live the Amish lifestyle, afer they have seen the rest of the world.
At lest they get a chance to see what the rest of the world lives like, and then they can choose their life.

This family..thoes kids have no clue what the real world is like. If they were sent out into it, for whatever reason, they would crash and burn. They have no survival skills in this world.
Plus...Im sure they wonder what they are missing They've never even been to school. They are completly secluded in the life their parents created. I am sur ethey are curious as to how things work. WHat if one of them rebelled and started sneaking out at night to see the world? They are to naive for their own good.

Kaylinn
05-20-2007, 06:20 PM
Then again...I'm gonna be the parent that says to her daughter, I know you'll do it anyway, so Im not gonna try to stop you, but lets be responsible and get some Birth control. And give her ALL the facts on STD's, pregnancy, and hwo to be responsible. I'll explain drugs to her, and WHY they are bad. I wont just say, it's bad, don't do it.

I don't believe in shielding children. Curiousity will draw them, and they will sneak and do it. Better to have them knowledgable abotu things to make good decisions.

Paintbaby
05-20-2007, 06:20 PM
^^^^ Which would be awesome if the fundamentalist Christian right wasn't systematically destroying constitutional and women's rights in your country, as it is at the moment, CherrySin. If they stayed within their "culture" and didn't try to run things for everyone else according to their own beliefs, I would agree with you. Last I checked, Chinatown or Little Mexico weren't trying to ensure abortion is recriminalized. I have a sister who lives in the US, and it makes me mighty cross to know that her choices as a woman, and her rights to her own bodily integrity are becoming severely limited due to Christian fundamentalists like these folks. This is why I find them, and their kind, so distasteful.

Lysondra
05-20-2007, 06:23 PM
^ Huh...? Last I checked this family was pretty good about not pushing their beliefs on others and were pretty 'this is how things work but if you decide on something else - that's okay' within their own family.

Paintbaby
05-20-2007, 06:28 PM
:thinking: I wonder what their stand on abortion or birth control is? :thinking:

flickad
05-20-2007, 06:31 PM
Ah, Full Quiver types. I read up a whole bunch about them a while back. In fact, I specifically remember the Duggar family being mentioned. I do pity them- I can't imagine raising ten kids plus is any picnic- but it's no business of mine (I won't, however, pretend that I'm not somewhat disgusted by that kind of excessive fecundity, for reasons mentioned by other posters).

jaizaine
05-20-2007, 06:35 PM
My mum is one of 9 but things were very diff in her day and I can't imagine anyone doing it these days. You would never have any time or money to spend on yourself. Could they send the kids off to do anything like sports, dancing, music etc? I doubt it. Those kids will miss out on things because there wont be enough money to invest in each individual child.

My mum had a very poor but also very happy childhood.
Being an only child myself I feel that I missed out by not having any siblings.

On a side note that woman's vagina would be a complete write-off LOL.

flickad
05-20-2007, 06:38 PM
:thinking: I wonder what their stand on abortion or birth control is? :thinking:

They're fundamentalist Christians. Hows about taking a wild guess? ;P

Paintbaby
05-20-2007, 06:43 PM
^^^^ Right. No abortion or birth control for them, and none for everyone else, either. The rage, it burns......>:(

cherry_sin
05-20-2007, 07:16 PM
That's not always true.

I'm from Oklahoma, and a lot of my extended family is soooo like what you guys are seeing on this documentary.

Not everyone who chooses to raise thier children by a different ethical code is stuffing things down anyones throat, and besides that, not everyone who is living this way is a member of the political fundy groups trying to recriminalize abortion. The majority of them don't get involved in it... Hell, they don't even get a paper besides what is printed within their own community. The furthest they go as far as big issues is petitioning to move the Memorial Day picnic to the side of the lake without all the mosquitoes.

You can't take a bunch of extremists as the majority.

Not all Muslims are suicide bombers.
Not all strippers are cokeheaded ten dollar whores.
Not all who live cloistered or within their own communities are members of the religious right.

I wish we, as intelligent people, could move past this kind of narrow mindedness. It saddens me to no end.

flickad
05-20-2007, 07:20 PM
That's not always true.

I'm from Oklahoma, and a lot of my extended family is soooo like what you guys are seeing on this documentary.

Not everyone who chooses to raise thier children by a different ethical code is stuffing things down anyones throat, and besides that, not everyone who is living this way is a member of the political fundy groups trying to recriminalize abortion. The majority of them don't get involved in it... Hell, they don't even get a paper besides what is printed within their own community. The furthest they go as far as big issues is petitioning to move the Memorial Day picnic to the side of the lake without all the mosquitoes.

You can't take a bunch of extremists as the majority.

Not all Muslims are suicide bombers.
Not all strippers are cokeheaded ten dollar whores.
Not all who live cloistered or within their own communities are members of the religious right.

I wish we, as intelligent people, could move past this kind of narrow mindedness. It saddens me to no end.

The Duggars are, in fact, politically conservative and anti birth control. Jim Duggar is also politically active in the conservative sphere. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar_family for starters.

In fact, the Quiverfull movement itself (of which the Duggars are part) is quite strenuously opposed to birth control, abortion and sterilisation (see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull).

AlexxaHex
05-20-2007, 07:21 PM
I find it ironic and hypocritical that so many people are bashing them for their reproductive choices when you know damn well you'd have a fit if someone tried to tell you that you couldn't have an abortion or give birth if you wanted to.
They're obviously raising decent human beings who aren't posing a threat to society. You can't tell them they are wrong for having a larger than normal family because they are Christian. Do I subscribe to their beliefs and practices? No. Is it a little extreme? Yes. But would I want someone telling me what to do with my body or spirituality? HELL NO!
So I choose not to judge.

cherry_sin
05-20-2007, 07:25 PM
^^^ Indeed.

flickad
05-20-2007, 07:33 PM
I find it ironic and hypocritical that so many people are bashing them for their reproductive choices when you know damn well you'd have a fit if someone tried to tell you that you couldn't have an abortion or give birth if you wanted to.
They're obviously raising decent human beings who aren't posing a threat to society. You can't tell them they are wrong for having a larger than normal family because they are Christian. Do I subscribe to their beliefs and practices? No. Is it a little extreme? Yes. But would I want someone telling me what to do with my body or spirituality? HELL NO!
So I choose not to judge.

There's a difference between judging someone's reproductive choices on a moral level (which is what's going on in much of this thread) and trying to limit those choices. Political conservatives, for example, lobby for legislative and common law change which would, in fact, prevent women from readily accessing birth control and abortion. This is a whole other kettle of fish than is simply being critical of the choices of others for environmental, ethical or personal reasons. Open disagreement with someone's choices is a function of free speech. Attempting to limit those choices, on the other hand, is the antithesis of liberty.

Paintbaby
05-20-2007, 07:36 PM
^^^ Christian fundamentalism is a threat to society. Women's rights are considered part of society, I would hope. Raising a "quiverfull" and indoctrinating the kids in those same dangerous beliefs about having the "right" to force their choices on others is what I find so offensive. While I think it is grossly irresponsible to have 17 kids in a first-world nation on an already distressed planet, she can treat her vagina as a clown car if she so chooses--I'm not telling her to do a damned thing, but I am certainly entitled to my opinion on the subject. People can have their spirituality--but they do NOT have the right to force it upon others, or to take away the choices of others in the name of their religion.

BrunetteGoddess
05-20-2007, 08:07 PM
I feel bad for the mother- she hasn't known what it is to NOT be pregnant in over a decade!

Kaylinn
05-20-2007, 09:32 PM
The LAST thing I want is for this to turn into another 22 page long fight over reporductive choices.
We have soo many threads on it right now. To much arguing. Me no like fighting. Espicially between people who I like and respect.

I think there's a difference between passing judgement and saying, enough is enough!

I don't judge people who have abortions, I am pro choice. But my mother had over 9 abortions. I don't judge, but really, enough is enough.

17 kids? enough is enough. Can she honestly say she gives each and every child personal attention every day? No way. I watched her show. Her kids go on a buddy system. Each older child "partners" with a younger one to care for. Her kids are raising her kids. She has so many kids she can't raise them all herself. Is that fair to the children to have to care for their sibligns cause mom had more than she can handle?

kittenkat
05-21-2007, 02:05 AM
double post , edited and elaborated below

Zabrina
05-21-2007, 02:15 AM
But the father has run for senate, you can bet damn well that they are going to be drones to force their religious looniness into the law.

I'm with paintbaby, Christian fundamentalism is a threat to society. The family is creating an army to echo thier beliefs, just like families who share thier beliefs are encouraged to do.

Whatever, as much as I disagree with it, I'm not going to hinder thier right to do so. Nobody who has expressed disapproval has even suggested that. But they damn sure will be voting to hinder my rights! You can bet your ass on that.

kittenkat
05-21-2007, 02:21 AM
The Quiverful movement DOES bother me- because a lot of the Quiverful adherents are also POLITICALLY active in many areas, from preventing sex ed in public schools, to the typical pro-life activities. In fact, one of the people locally against funding domestic violence shelters were several Quiverful men. They thought domestic violence shelters broke up families that should be dealt through god's counseling instead (which in their case, discourages women from leaving abusive relationships). The same men were active in getting schools to teach creationsim as science, among other things. *Snort*

Those that want to practice their religion peacefully and don't try to enforce their religion on nonbelievers through enacting laws are fine by me- but my support ends once they start working to limit MY rights and erode the separation of church and state. At that point, they are no longer just "practicing" their religion, but rather- disrespecting religious and reproductive freedom of OTHERS.

Lysondra
05-21-2007, 02:33 AM
I find it ironic and hypocritical that so many people are bashing them for their reproductive choices when you know damn well you'd have a fit if someone tried to tell you that you couldn't have an abortion or give birth if you wanted to.
They're obviously raising decent human beings who aren't posing a threat to society. You can't tell them they are wrong for having a larger than normal family because they are Christian. Do I subscribe to their beliefs and practices? No. Is it a little extreme? Yes. But would I want someone telling me what to do with my body or spirituality? HELL NO!
So I choose not to judge.

Hey... we agree here.

CupCake
05-21-2007, 02:35 AM
Yuck, thats all I can say when I hear of women having 16 damn kids!!!!My dad has like 9 bro/sisters in his family, I think it's selfish you cannot give all these children the time and love they deserve! Sorry but it's like a damn dog having a litter of puppys...Stearlization sounds like an awesome idea after 2 kids.just my PO. :no:

aussiepunkshocker
05-21-2007, 02:38 AM
I havent read the whole thread, but that woman who had 69 children is amazing. They were all twins and triplets or something which was really bizarre. She was going to be a Nun and then decided to get married. I forget which country she was from now, but when I saw a doco about her she was certainly very happy and her kids were great.

People can raise large families well even if we generally only hear about the ones who do it badly.



Seriously, this lady is rockin' a mullet, okay? Also, they pointed that the most children to be birthed by one woman is...hold your breath...69 children. Anyway, it's a wierd show and they are pretty fuckin' religious. Well, I guess you would be living in Arkansas. Dios mio.

kittenkat
05-21-2007, 02:42 AM
Andrea Yates was from a Quiver.

http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/quiverfullconvicted

Regarding Andrea, fellow quivers state:

"Andrea Yates is just another victim of the present-day apostate church," he says. "She had no strength in the Lord because she truly didn't know the Lord. A right relationship - truly worshipping Him in spirit and in truth - would have given her the overcoming power she needed to resist the Devil during her period of testing."

She had severe post-partum depression, it has nothing to do with Jesus. I've heard from a few former Quivers that
1- women are either heavily pressured or forbidden from terminating pregnancies, even if it means death or debilitation. Those that do are often divorced by their husbands or ostracized from the community.
2- they are very skeptical of the medical community and discourage psychiatric/psychological treatment of mental illness, such as post-partum depression. women that suffer post-partum depression are discouraged from seeking doctors and encouraged to seek more prayer. They're considered "not walking with God." They're really big on home births, and their suspicion over the scientific/medical community is one of the reasons.

Admittedly, THe ABOVE is part of what bothers me (aside from taking their belief into politics and trying to get us to follow their ways along the veins of Jerry Falwell), not the fact that they have a lot of kids.

aussiepunkshocker
05-21-2007, 02:42 AM
Perhaps she doesnt want to know what if feel like - some women love being pregnant. She'll find out what its like when menopause hits anyway... /:O



I feel bad for the mother- she hasn't known what it is to NOT be pregnant in over a decade!

kittenkat
05-21-2007, 02:50 AM
But would I want someone telling me what to do with my body or spirituality? HELL NO!
So I choose not to judge.

Not trying to be a pest- but a serious question. If you knew that they were trying to enact laws to strip people like you of your rights, would that change anything? The Duggar's father was a politician, and remain active in politics, for those that aren't aware.

That's where I draw the line- anyone is free to practice whatever religion they want as they don't actively try to infringe on other people's rights. I feel that they have the right to have as many kids as they want, but i am opposed to their political activities, which include stripping people like you and me of our rights.

In addition, Quiverfull women are discouraged against tubal ligation or birth control, even if there is a medical advice to do so for the mother's health after multiple miscarriages- but then, they don't believe in medical advice very much.

From here:
http://home.fuse.net/mac47/quiverfaq.html


You just had two miscarriages in the space of three months. Aren't you going to give your body a break?

I have been fortunate to have quick and easy recoveries from both miscarriages. I will be delighted if God allows me to conceive again immediately. He knows my physical needs far better than I do, and I have complete trust in His timing.

Waiting to conceive after a miscarriage is standard medical advice, but it is without basis in medical research. It is often suggested for "psychological" rather than physical reasons. Many women have concieved immediately after a miscarriage and gone on to have a healthy pregnancy and baby. Of course, marital relations should not resume until recovery is complete and there is no more discharge. It may also be advisable for a mother who has had a difficult miscarriage to take iron supplements and nourishing herbs such as red raspberry, red clover, and stinging nettle.


Do you believe that people who have small families are sinning, refusing God's blessings? Aren't you making having many children a standard of holiness?

Intentionally limiting family size -- whether by artificial or "natural" means (ie. unbiblical abstinence) -- is sinning and rejecting the blessings of God.

I have no issues with them believing any of the above for themselves, but to expect non-believers to follow the same- nope, I refuse to accept it.

I agree with Paintbaby here:

People can have their spirituality--but they do NOT have the right to force it upon others, or to take away the choices of others in the name of their religion.

Personally, I think it's important to FIGHT movements (like Quiverfull and Jerry Falwell) that tried to enforce a theocratic government. That's a very important part of maintaining religious freedom.

One of the movement's favorite quotes:

Ephesians 6:22-25 reads, Wives, submit yourselves to you own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

BTW, The Duggars are expecting their 17th child in July. some of my infertile friends would kill to have even a bit of her fertility!

pennygirl
05-21-2007, 11:59 AM
i saw the episode where they took a road trip.. i noticed the 3 little ones (the teenies was sitting by the parents) were all in car seats in the back next to each other .. this was just weird to me.. when id take my son in the car just across the street i was always reaching back touching his foot or talking to him when he was little..i couldnt have him sitting in the back of an rv while i sat in the front .... i guess what im getting at is if you are a touchy feely mom blah blah youd go insane having so many kids.. i think some people parent differently like pretty distant .. all needs are taken care of but like one on one time and stuff like that they just dont do ..not saying shes a bad parent but she seems kindof stand offish with her kids guess youd have to to have so many .. the older ones take care of the younger ones .. all a personal decision but MY OPINION id say just have a few that you could really dote on ... they all seem happy and well behaved but who knows i just cant relate to her parenting style

AlexxaHex
05-21-2007, 07:22 PM
I don't agree with their beliefs, but we can't go around putting a cap on the number of children born in America. It's not realistic in this day and age. If you want a limited number of children running around, the only place you're really going to see that is in China where they have legislation to control population. We don't have that here, so it's not fair to impose that on our citizens.
From a personal perspective, I can understand why you would have a problem with this (I'm not stupid!) but like I said it's just not realistic to think you're going to stop it.
If the father is a politician, then I can hope there are other politicians fighting against him. I still wouldn't object to the family having as many kids as they want. Hopefully one of those kids will grow up (and they probably will) and form a huge leftist movement in rebellion.

kittenkat
05-21-2007, 07:32 PM
I don't have an issue with them having all the kids they want either. I never said there should be a cap on the number of kids people are allowed to have. I disagree that there should be no caps on Quiverfulls or anyone having or not having kids. I think 17 kids is a bit much, but not my body, not my life.

I WILL however say- that the Quiverfull movement IS oppressive to women, and I object to their desire to enforce their views on others politically.

Incidentally, China is a completely different country with different circumstances. I don't agree with what they're doing, but they do unfortunately have a practical reason to do what they do- and the 1 child per family concept is grossly misunderstood in the states.