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fancygirl
06-15-2006, 02:03 AM
so, I've been turned onto YouTube.com by you guys showing different funny videos, but I ended up running across the 9/11 videos showing the various government conspiracy theories. I'd seen one a few years back about the pentagon plane not being an actual airline because the impact hole was too small.
These other videos...I mean, Bush isn't exactly popular here, but what do you guys truly think?

I'm now of the opinion that it was government engineered.
Funny how that viewpoint changed in just a few minutes. It's going to take me a few days to have it sink in.

Lord...save us from the Bush regime.
What are we going to do if the third election gets fucked up and his brother or someone equally bad for the US gets "elected"? We didn't do anything about the first or second shady election, and I keep thinking that we just have to make it through Bush's second term. But maybe we've got a lot more to worry about after that as well.

dlabtot
06-15-2006, 02:33 AM
What are we going to do if the third election gets fucked up and his brother or someone equally bad for the US gets "elected"?

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

fancygirl
06-15-2006, 03:00 AM
Yup...I hope so too. But it's not just Bush....or, it might not even BE Bush, but other people around him.

Jay Zeno
06-15-2006, 03:18 AM
Conspiracy theories are an anti-government conspiracy. They have so much commonality in manufactured evidence, ignorance or convenient reconstruction of facts, that I can reach no other conclusion.

;)

Casual Observer
06-15-2006, 06:46 AM
^ JZ is right. Moreover, tell the families of the dead that they weren't really on the airliner and that they're hidden in some secure location in VA--one of them was Ted Olsen's wife, Barbara. Ted Olsen was the then-Solicitor General of the US. If there were a conspiracy going on, he'd be in on it and his wife (writer and pundit) would be alive.


What are we going to do if the third election gets fucked up and his brother or someone equally bad for the US gets "elected"?

That's the irony. Jeb Bush would have been much more effective than his brother (he's actually pretty good as an executive given his experience in governing FL), but he's repeatedly said he has no national office ambitions. And I can't say I blame him, either.

lunchbox
06-15-2006, 06:53 AM
I read the other night that W and H.W. were both members of Skull and Bones at Yale (The Skulls was based on them).

Deogol
06-15-2006, 07:35 AM
These conspiracy videos are a crock. They say no planes crashed into the pentagon yet there are big ass jet engines lying around all over the place. The pentagon is a re-enforced structure to help against bombings so a jet isn't going to level the place. If one smashes anything at 600 miles an hour into a concrete wall it is going to be pulverized beyond recogniction.

I have a friend who is into all these kooky videos about everything and everyone - there is a whole market for this stuff - like comic books.

Casual Observer
06-15-2006, 07:45 AM
I read the other night that W and H.W. were both members of Skull and Bones at Yale (The Skulls was based on them).

So was Kerry. Not sure what that means.

Mastridonicus
06-15-2006, 08:03 AM
Seems the intelligent people really understand how bad moving to the oval office is a bad decision. Sucks, Jeb would have been much more effective.

Saying 9/11 attacks are government engineered based on such little information is obtuse.

Everyone understands that there are a level of secrets, and that coverups happen. We're all afraid as to the magnitude to which those methodes may have been used.

This topic has been discussed over and over again, but it seems the truth doesn't always get the attention it needs.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

# Review the facts
# Size of 757 matches the initial size of hole in the building - somewhere between 13 and 16 feet (757 is 13 feet wide/high)
# Rims found in building match those of a 757
# Small turbine engine outside is an APU
# Same engine has been clearly stated to not match a Global Hawk engine
# Blue seats from 757 laying on ground in photos
# Part of "American" fuselage logo visible in more than 1 photo
# Engine parts photographed inside match a Rolls-Royce RB211
# Structural components photographed in wreckage match Boeing paint primer schemes
# Large deisel generator in front of building hit by a large heavy object
# Large deisel engine outside is spun towards the building - could not be result of bomb blast or missile explosion
# Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner
# Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner hit the Pentagon
# 60+ bodies, matching the passenger list and flight crew roster identified and returned to families from Pentagon wreckage


"Conclusion
I highly doubt that local firefighters would be involved in any sort of a coverup. I highly doubt that local police officers would be involved in any sort of a government cover up. Cops and firemen are just average Joes like you and me, who go home to the wife and kids, and just try to make a living and have a good life for their families (I have many friends in both professions - of course the firemen are usually more stable marriage-wise because of their job but that doesn't make the cops any less human than you or I). The men and women who pulled over a hundred people (dead and alive) out of that building would more likely than not have noticed somebody carrying over 60 bodies into the middle of the fire they were fighting. To say that the plane that hit the Pentagon was not filled with every single person who died in this terrorist attack (not counting the unfortunate people inside the building) is one thing and one thing only - ignorant. "

Yekhefah
06-15-2006, 10:57 AM
I have long suspected the possibility - not saying I know, just the possibility - that the government was involved. But nothing was staged. Those planes did crash and those people did die. If the government was involved, it was probably something like Pearl Harbor, when FDR knew about the Japanese attack and let it happen so we would have a reason to go to war.

Notice that the one plane that didn't make its destination was the one headed for Washington.

fancygirl
06-15-2006, 11:54 AM
I'm not saying I KNOW this stuff...it's just wow. I think I do believe this now. I kind of wondered why the WTC towers fell directly downward, not listing to any side, like a demolition site.

Mastridonicus
06-15-2006, 12:07 PM
If you want to know why the towers fell that way after the plane hit, do some research on fluid dynamics. As mentioned in the link.

The towers fell straight downward because the impact wouldn't affect it in a way that would cause it to sway to either side.
"
In layman's terms the crash dynamics worked like so: A large hollow tube, with a belly full of luggage, a passenger bay with 60 people, and wings full of fuel smashed into the side of an almost solid object while moving at a tremendous speed (somewhere around 350-400mph). When the 225,000lb+ plane hit, it smashed apart with such force from the crash that it became like one massive column of liquid (no, the plane didn't melt or turn into liquid, it just acted like one physically - mountainslides act the same way, a million tons of rock acts like a large field of liquid during a landslide even if no water is present). All the small parts, luggage, people, seats, and all the tens of thousands of pounds of fuel acting like a massive river came crashing into the wall of the Pentagon"

In the WTC center's example, since the design of the building made to crumple downwards it would act much like a sensei would teach a student. Punch THROUGH the wood, do not PUNCH the wood. The truth here is when one end is mounted on the ground and you hit the wood breaking it at a high rate of speed, the severed top falls DOWNWARD not directionally away from the punch.

tampadancer
06-15-2006, 01:09 PM
this "theory" is a bunch of crap. seriously.

tampadancer
06-15-2006, 01:11 PM
Lord...save us from the Bush regime.
What are we going to do if the third election gets fucked up and his brother or someone equally bad for the US gets "elected"? We didn't do anything about the first or second shady election, and I keep thinking that we just have to make it through Bush's second term. But maybe we've got a lot more to worry about after that as well.

Are you honestly insinuating that the election was somehow "rigged"? I do hope Jeb runs. I'll vote for him.

Isn't this why political poo got closed?

~Nikki~
06-15-2006, 02:35 PM
If the government was involved, it was probably something like Pearl Harbor, when FDR knew about the Japanese attack and let it happen so we would have a reason to go to war.


Based on 3+ years of research that is what I have concluded happened. The Bush regime let 9/11 happen so they could use it as a reason to go to war.

A group of them know as The Project for a New American Century had been awaiting such an event even prior to the 2000 election. At one point their website even included language that made mention of them needing a new Pearl Harbor. But since it became more widely known and lots of people were reading their website they removed the comment along with other things. I saw it before it was removed though.

fancygirl
06-15-2006, 03:26 PM
Hey, I'm not asking you guys to believe it Tampa; I'm just saying that I saw these videos and now I think something that I didn't previously think. I'll be sure to read up on it, and I wouldn't think that it would be okay to cite it based on videos from people I don't know. Just as I wouldn't trust the info on crash dynamics or anything else offered by people on this site. It's something that I would have to go to primary docs to confirm facts on the burning temps of steel versus C4, or to look to see if the planes that hit the WTC towers had windows or not.

I think political poo got closed, Tampa Dancer, because people weren't willing to either agree or disagree with each other, but instead started getting antsy and rude.

Agree, or disagree, TD, but don't get your panties in a twist, because those that disagree MAY be right. heck, they probably are right, and I'm willing to see that. But as it stands, a can of worms got opened up for me last night, and FOR ME I currently believe something different than you.

And yes, if an election gets fucked up twice in a row, yes. I believe there's something wrong.

dlabtot
06-15-2006, 03:30 PM
Are you honestly insinuating that the election was somehow "rigged"?

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/NYT_Bob_Herbert_Kerry_almost_certainly_0612.html

For your consideration.

As far as poo being closed, this (member boards) is an unmoderated area where we are actually allowed to say whatever we want. No one is forcing you to read these threads. If it upsets you to read ideas and opinions you don't agree with, just don't read them.

fancygirl
06-15-2006, 03:47 PM
Here is what did it for me. I have yet to factcheck the easier things, but here's that can of worms I was talking about:











and,

~Nikki~
06-15-2006, 04:06 PM
Hey, I'm not asking you guys to believe it Tampa; I'm just saying that I saw these videos and now I think something that I didn't previously think. I'll be sure to read up on it, and I wouldn't think that it would be okay to cite it based on videos from people I don't know. Just as I wouldn't trust the info on crash dynamics or anything else offered by people on this site. It's something that I would have to go to primary docs to confirm facts on the burning temps of steel versus C4, or to look to see if the planes that hit the WTC towers had windows or not.

I think political poo got closed, Tampa Dancer, because people weren't willing to either agree or disagree with each other, but instead started getting antsy and rude.

Agree, or disagree, TD, but don't get your panties in a twist, because those that disagree MAY be right. heck, they probably are right, and I'm willing to see that. But as it stands, a can of worms got opened up for me last night, and FOR ME I currently believe something different than you.

And yes, if an election gets fucked up twice in a row, yes. I believe there's something wrong.

Right on. There will always be people who believe or don't believe regardless of the issue. Think about it there are people who still believe that Elvis lives and that the holocaust didn't happen. No amount of historical facts will change their minds just as there will always be those who believe that George Bush, Jr. was sent by God to save the USA. :O Just look at the opinion polls. That 20% or so of his supporters will never accept that things that may be different than he tells them.

I think when dealing with polar opposite points of view the best thing to do to agree to disagree. Ofcourse both sides have to agree to do it or it doesn't work.

Mastridonicus
06-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Just as I wouldn't trust the info on crash dynamics or anything else offered by people on this site.


Hahaha Kerslap.

Believe what you will. I fell for this years ago. There may be conspiracies, but that plane hit the pentagon IMO. You can look everywhere for the information on it. Or you can choose read someone who's not only compiled it, but has cited their sources...which is something the OP would strongly respect.

Everything I felt valuable to put into my posts where backed up with similar and more pictures and reviews from the same sources and photos used in the movies you saw.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

Everything I said, was cited sources in that link. At best it's proof, at worst it's referenced on youtube.com so equally valuable. Though I respect anyone's desire to find their answers on their own.




Right on. There will always be people who believe or don't believe regardless of the issue. Think about it there are people who still believe that Elvis lives and that the holocaust didn't happen. No amount of historical facts will change their minds just as there will always be those who believe that George Bush, Jr. was sent by God to save the USA. Just look at the opinion polls. That 20% or so of his supporters will never accept that things that may be different than he tells them.



Truer words...


If it didn't come across as such, and if this was, in fact, an attack on me personally, then I apologize for coming across as crass and want to formally state that I respect your difference in opinion. And I fully believe I lack the credentials to tell anyone here that their opinion is wrong.

I only know enough to know I know nothing at all.

kdogg247
06-15-2006, 06:09 PM
George W. Bush caused global warming too. Thought you should know.

fancygirl
06-15-2006, 06:16 PM
Everything I felt valuable to put into my posts where backed up with similar and more pictures and reviews from the same sources and photos used in the movies you saw.

I know the last place to cite sources is youtube, but it's a starting point for me. We always talk about on this site not to trust people's posts implicitly, and to go to licensed professionals for advice on taxes, jail time or even perms.

When I start looking into the primary documents (and I'll be starting with the 9/11 handbook) then I would sincerely HOPE to be believing in the wrong thing. It's somehow so much easier to believe that a foreign entity did such a monstrous thing than to believe that members of our government (and not the whole government, or even MOST of the government) either aided or sat by while this occured. It changed the direction our country was going.

Mostly, I get so sick of the propoganda and the violations of civil liberties that the US government is pushing in its war on terrorism. I hate how I may support the military, but if I don't agree with Bush and his cabinet's plan for what to do with the military's lives and the lives of foreigners that I'm somehow anti-america and anti-military.

I'm not saying that I've seen the light and that it is the one truth; truth is always much more complex than that. But what I can say is that something is WRONG here. There's something wrong with how the two elections went down. There's something wrong with the Bush presidency, and the war (that's out to prove what exactly?); finally, I came across those clips last night that made me conclude that this wrongness very likely envelops 9/11.

There may have truly been an airliner that hit the pentagon, but there's enough questions about the pilots, the passengers, the link between Bin Laden and the US, the collapse, and the investigation into the collapse. If it was just one question, yes, this would be absurd. But there's enough questions for me to consider that if a few turn out to be answered logically with what we've already been told, then there's still a few out there that need to be given that same due attention with better answers than we've been given thus far.


George W. Bush caused global warming too. Thought you should know.

Nah, Global Warming didn't happen with Bush. But it's a darn shame he weakened the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts for big business.

fancygirl
06-16-2006, 08:00 PM
Someone recommended this video, and I just finished watching it. It's online for free and runs about an hour and fifteen minutes.

It's available at:

Also, I went to the library today and picked up some books. For those who are interested in reading material related to this topic, they are:

The 9/11 Commission Report
The 9/11 Investigations: Staff reports of the 9/11 Commission
The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions
&
9/11 Revealed.

goo321
06-16-2006, 10:42 PM
Whenever anything of significance happens conspiracy theories follows, especially if it was caused by one or a small number of people. kennedy assassination, oswald assassination, lincoln assassination, pearl harbor, moon landing, many foreign incidents and political leaders deaths, im sure a few more. shit happens. people donít want to believe significant things can happen by relatively random, arbitrary things. and maybe people hate their government and dont want to trust anything it says. so utterly tired of ufos, ghosts, conspiracies, organic food,

fancygirl
06-17-2006, 01:20 AM
yeah, but it seems like there's not like one or two or three unanswered questions, there's a bunch. Watch the movie. Not an answer by any means but it just shows so many unanswered ones, even ones I hadn't even heard about (and still have to fact check.)

Deogol
06-17-2006, 02:28 PM
Whenever anything of significance happens conspiracy theories follows, especially if it was caused by one or a small number of people. kennedy assignation, oswald assignation, lincoln assignation, pearl harbor, moon landing, many foreign incidents and political leaders deaths, im sure a few more. shit happens. people donít want to believe significant things can happen by relatively random, arbitrary things. and maybe people hate their government and dont want to trust anything it says. so utterly tired of ufos, ghosts, conspiracies, organic food,


Ah - no man, ghosts are the real thing. 8)

Deogol
06-17-2006, 02:29 PM
yeah, but it seems like there's not like one or two or three unanswered questions, there's a bunch. Watch the movie. Not an answer by any means but it just shows so many unanswered ones, even ones I hadn't even heard about (and still have to fact check.)


This is how people are. If they don't have an answer for something - they make some shit up that sounds like it fills in the blanks.

For an example of this - check the gossip magazines (or the dressing room gossip.)

Wwanderer
06-18-2006, 08:29 AM
The most entertaining aspect of govt conspiracy theories, imo, is the idea that the US govt could, no matter how hard it tried, ever manage to keep anything of significance secret, especially something that would require the involvement of numerous people at many levels in many branches of the govt. They can't even keep the Pres getting a BJ secret; they can't even mistreat a few prisoners in a high security military prison on the far side of the planet without explicit color pics ending up in the newspapers; they can't keep the things the Pres discusses in confidence with his closest advisors out of best selling books; they can't keep hyper-secret spying operations by the NSA out of the headlines...on and on, endless examples. Leaking is the name of the game in DC, and the news media have become experts in using the Freedom of Information Act to dig out anything that no one bothers to leak. If Sept 11 had been a govt conspiracy, you would have seen it confirmed within a year for sure and maybe a month. Ditto almost any other govt conspiracy theory you ever heard.

-Ww

kikin
06-18-2006, 10:09 AM
Actually they have many secrets. We don't know about them because they are secret. Read "" by Ted Gup and you will find out about all the old secrets which have been declassified in part (many aspects of them still remain classified 40 years later).

As far as the NSA, there is even a more secret intelligence outfit known as the DIA and you will never hear leaks coming out of that place.

Deogol
06-18-2006, 11:48 AM
The DIA doesn't have to many interesting secrets. It is more like rumbling around on a battle field and determining who's ordinance was used. Ya hear Iran is supplying arms to insurgents? It's the DIA that determined that.

The juicy civilian gossip comes from civilian intelligence agencies - CIA and NSA.

The CIA is into know everything they can - weapons, culture, economics - anything that can be used by policy to manipulate our enemies (and friends!)

NSA is signals interception - who is talking to who and what is being said.

Deogol
06-18-2006, 11:59 AM
Well, here is what I think of the so called conspiracy theorists.

-- They want to believe that the government is behind all bad things - this is because basically we can influence the government (here) and so they can have influence and power also.

All we have to do is get the "bad" people out of government and put in the "good" people - you know, the ones that "think like you and me." How can those "bad" people get into power - it must be corruption and conspiracy!

They basically have a fundamental misunderstanding of government - that the US has in essence, a revolution every four years over who is in charge.

-- They are basically racist to an extent. They don't believe that other groups of people on the plant (which is mostly black, brown, or yellow) could come up with plans that can effect their white picket fences (or trailer homes - what have you.)

Oh my God - can a bunch of towel heads living in mud huts come and cause trouble in our sophisticated and complex society!?!? (Lotta stuff going on in Dubia that makes the US look ass backwards right now.)

They are like "Oh hey - we are king of the hill - how can someone from Sierra Leon hope to have influence here!"

-- It is nice to have a silver bullet. One place to go to eliminate the problem!
The problem is life isn't like that. There are plenty of people with thier own agenda's ready to fill in the void.

-- And just plain old ignorance of the rest of the world. Ask how many of these people have passports and where they have been? No where. To dangerous out there.

fancygirl
06-22-2006, 11:00 PM
^^^I had a hard time making sense of this post. Did you watch Loose Change? I don't think that the government is the big bad guy; I know that politicians are a mixed bag and you're never going to get a completely good one. I couldn't figure out if you were calling the US government racist or conspiracy theorists.
And I have used my passport, three times so far in fact.

Djoser
06-24-2006, 12:52 PM
Well one thing to remember is that the Pentagon was built in an entirely different fashion, and for an entirely different purpose, than the WTC. It is a military edifice, dedicated in very early 1943, when the possibility of long range bombers attacking the USA hadn't yet been dismissed (temporarily).

The architects no doubt were well aware of the need to design the building wherein the nation's defense was directed (therefore a nice big juicy target) for resilience in the face of physical attack.

The shape resembles the shape of many fortresses built over the millennia, with good reason--it is literally a fortress in more ways than one.

The WTC, on the other hand, was not designed to resist any sort of bombing attack, but for beauty and appeal to businesspeople seeking to lease offices. The large proportion of window area alone made it a much more vulnerable target for attack than the Pentagon.

So the amazing, seemingly unbelievable resilience of the Pentagon to an airliner being crashed into it isn't surprising to me at all. The strange flight path just prior to the explosion is bizarre, but who knows what the guy at the controls was thinking in those last moments?

All that being said, I'm inclined to believe that the guy in the CIA who supposedly said "they should have killed more people" about 9/11, did say it, and meant it. Not that everyone in the CIA is evil, and would gladly sacrifice civilians in order to get the country into a condition where domestic surveillance, curtailment of civil liberties, and use of military force was blithely accepted.

I certainly believe that there are people in power, in various capacities, who do not much care about the fates of common Americans, and that there are elements in play behind elections and military actions that the ordinary person has no idea of. Dwight D Eisenhower, a Republican president, tried to warn us about this half a century ago, and very few people ever listened to him.

I am pretty skeptical of the vast majority of conspiracy theories, but I do not automatically trust those in control of the reins of power, either.

If you want to believe nothing ever happens we're not supposed to know about, and everything always happens just like the PR men say it does, knock yourself out...

I've read enough history to where that notion seems every bit as naive as believing we crashed a plane into our own Pentagon.

And as for the Bush brothers--DELETED nasty vile abuse, lol...

As always, these are my views, and I really prefer not to alienate anyone who might disagree. I actually like arguing with close friends (and a few past lovers, lol) about politics, but it is best done in person, with some drinks, and a lot of humor--something thats impossible to pull off here, sadly...

DJ Maimed
06-24-2006, 01:47 PM
Fancygirl; There is a book by Robert Shea called the "Illuminatti Trilogy" which is supposedly making fun of conspiracy theories (albeit from a Vietnam era perspective) which I reread recently (tons of hilarious quotes and things to think about) and it's amazing how many things that were "jokingly"??? said have come true. There is a supposed technique to hiding secrets by surrounding the truth "with a bodyguard of lies" but I suppose when you think about it only certain people really know or do they only think they know because the people above them who really really know wanted them to think they really knew??? I now have a headache and must discontinue this response due to the strange men with sunglasses knocking on my door. By the way... I believe you.

Paris
06-26-2006, 05:33 PM
Admittedly, I didn't read through this whole thread, but I personally have a family member who witnessed the plane crash at the pentagon.

He was in a meeting (he is in insurance) and had a view of the pentagon from the building and the room he was in when it happened. Scary stuff, and not a nice situation to be in. On the up side, I believe he got the account. I guess having a catostrophe happening while trying to sell someone more insurance is helpful.

Although I did not personally witness this tragedy, I believe him. He has no reason to lie about it. To think of this person as a deep cover agent is laughable. He seemed fairly tramatized by the whole thing.

fancygirl
06-26-2006, 06:32 PM
^so he was sure that he saw a airliner and not a military type plane? It's odd because the hole is rather small and there's not broken off wings or pieces. -shrug- What exactly did he see? And while I'm not saying this is the case, I wonder how susceptible to suggestion a person in deep trauma is.

Here's a quotation from The 9/11 Commission Report: Ommissions and Distortions:

Where's the Boeing?
That hole was big enough for a part of the Boeing 757 to have
entered--its nose. But this fact creates another embarrassing
problem. If the nose of a Boeing 757 had gone inside, the rest of the
airplane--its wings, engines, fuselage, and tail--would have remained
outside. But not Boeing is visible in photographs taken immediately
after the strike, either the photograph credited to Corporal Jason
Ingersoll...or one taken even earlier--just after the firetrucks arrived--
by Tom Horan of the Associated Press (which is reprinted on the
cover of Thierry Meyssan's 9/11: The Big Lie and is also available on
Meyssan's website called "Hunt the Boeing"). From reading only the
Kean-Zelikow Report, hoaver, one would have no idea that these
problems exist. All these inconvenient facts are simply ommitted...
(Why were there) no remains of a Boeing 757...visible inside
the Pentagon(?)... According to this explanation, the fire
created with the Pentagon was so hot that it not only melted the
airplane, including the tempered steel engines, but even
vaporized it. This explanation, however, would bring us back to
the problem of the type of fire that would be needed to produce
such effects. A fire fed by jet fuel could at most rise to 1,700
degress Fahrenheit, we recall, but to melt steel a fire would have
to be 2,770 degrees. A fire that could completely vaporize steel
would have to be still hotter. Furthermore, the claim that the fire
was so hot as to melt or even vaporize the steel would not fit
well with another part of the official story--the claim that the
bodies of the passengers on Flight 77 were identified by their
fingerprints. How could a commission whose task was to try to
explain what really happened on 9/11 have failed to investigate any of
these contradictions? ([emphasis added] Griffin, 34-6).


The FBI supposedly confiscated a videotape from a gas station and possibly a hotel as well that viewed the event. Yet we don't have those, we only have two video views from the grounds of the pentagon that don't really show anything because they tape at one second increments. I would like to see the confiscated tape.

Also according to The 9/11 Commission Report: Ommission and Distortions:

The 9/11 Commission could have played an important role in
answering such questions and clearing up this controversy. It could
have subpoenaed all the videos taken by the Pentagon's outdoor
security camers during the relevant time period. It could have also
subpoenaed videos from the nearby Sheraton Hotel and Virginia's
Department of Transportation. The Commision could have also looked
into a story that the FBI confiscated a video from a nearby gas
station immediately after the strike on the Pentagon. According to
this story, published in the Richmond Times tend days later,

"an employee at a gas station across the street from the
Pentagon that services only military personnel says the gas
station's security camers should have recorded the moment of
impact. However, he says, "I've never seen what the pictures
looked like. The FBI was here within minutes and took the film."

The 9/11 Commission should have interviewed the gas station attendant, Jose' Velasquez, and the reporter who filed the story, Bill McKelway. But their names are not to be found in The 9/11 Commission Report. The Commission should also have interviewed the FBI agents, finding out when and from whom they received the order to confiscate the video. There is no sign, however, that the Kean-Zelikow Commission did any of these things (Griffin, 37-38.

Deogol
06-26-2006, 08:48 PM
Oh good lord.

Watch this:

It might lend you some understanding of what happens to something made out of beer cans hits bomb proof walls at 500 miles an hour.

Optimist
06-26-2006, 11:19 PM
Fancygirl, I live in Jersey City NJ. The World Trade Center complex was literally five blocks down the street in plain view. They, the media, are not lying to you. I used to take the PATH train through that complex to my job in NY and to shop in Chinatown. I knew the Hudson News clerks who worked graveyard in the sub-plaza area that no longer exists. There were pieces of planes pulled from the wreckage and shown on local NY and network news. Before the second building collapsed the firemen at the scene said on live TV that there was a massive amount of fuel spilling down the face of the building and inside the building. There were fires consuming whole floors and they heard people behind fire doors they could not get to because the fire had spread too quickly and completely. I saw people jumping from windows because the heat was on them and they couldn't wait. My boyfriend worked at Newark airport where one plane took off and saw the impact from the tarmac where he worked. We have no reason to lie to you. You could have and I tearfully did visit the crater left behind. You can buy a DVD from channel 13 WNET tracing the history of the construction and design of the two towers and they will show you step by step how they fell. There were some cost saving innovations that bit them in the ass on Sptember 11th. I didn't realize the program wasn't shown in other parts of the country but you can view it--it's not theory. The gas tanks on those 757s are freakin huge! That's why they were picked. We locals have seen the tape from NY1 and other channels run over and over ad nauseum and that's a commercial plane. I watched the whole thing with my mother in real time and I wouldn't bullshit you. I saw the ambulances full of bodies night and day laying people out at our state park. I saw the pictures of all those poor people listed as missing on phone poles all over Manhattan. It's really real and really bad. It truly wasn't a show. I can even post a picture of the Trade center taken from my house that August if you think I'm BSing you.

A government bureau might have had warnings but you see they can't cooperate even when it's in their interest. They can't interpret thraets to save their own lives. That's what fed-up workers inside the FBI and CIA have recently been saying.

fancygirl
06-27-2006, 01:52 AM
-shrug- just looking into it. And I'm not saying people didn't die, because they did. lots of them did. But I wonder about this, among other things (*# symbols denote footnoted sources):

Once again (forgive me, it's the first book I've been going through) The 9/11 Commission Report: Ommissions and Distortions:

A sixth problem is that the collapses of the Twin Towers and
WTC-7 had ten characteristics that are standard features of
"controlled demolition" collapses which are produced by explosives
placed through a building and set to go off in a particular order.
Namely:

1. Each collapse occured at virtually free-fall speed.
2. Each building collapsed straight down, for the most part into its
own footprint. *11
3. Virtually all the concrete was turned into very fine dust.
4. In the case of the Twin Towers, the dust was blown out
horizontally for 200 feet or more.*12
5. The collapses were total, leaving no steel columns sticking up
hundreds of feet into the air.
6. Videos of the collapses reveal "demolition waves," meaning
"confluent rows of small explosions." *13
7.Most of the steel beams and columns came down in sections that
were no more than 30 feet long. *14
8. According to many witnesses, explosions occured within the
building. *15
9. Each collapse was associated with detectable seismic vibrations
(suggestive of underground explosions.)
10. Each collapse produced molten steel (which would be produced by
explosives), resulting in "hot spots" that remained for months. *16

Although authors of The 9/11 Commission Report reportedly aspired
to make it "the fullest possible accound of the events surrounding
9/11," it does not explicitly acknowledge, let alone solve, any of these
problems" (Griffin, 26-27).

Footnotes:

11. This point is more true of Building 7, because of the fact mentioned in the fourth point.

12. On points 3 and 4, see Jim Hoffman, "The North Tower's Dust Cloud: Analysis of Energy Requirements for the Expansion of the Dust Cloud following the Collapse of 1 World Trade Center," Version 3.1, January 5, 2004 (
, discussed in NPH, 2nd ed., 177-79.

13.For visual evidence of these first six characteristics, see Eric Hufschmid's Painful Questions, his video "Painful Deceptions" (available at ) and several presentations on websites, such as Jeff King, "The World Trade Center Collapse: How Strong is the Evidence for a Controlled Demolition?" Plaguepuppy (
. The quoted phrase in point 6 is taken from King's article.

14. Therefore they, in the words of Jim Hoffman, "could be easily loaded onto the equipment that was cleaning up Ground Zero." See Jim Hoffman, "Your Eyes Don't Lie: Common Sense, Physics, and the World Trade Center Collapses," originally an interview on KPFA, January 21, 2004 (available at
), quoted in NPH, 2nd ed., 177. Coincidentally, the company given the job of cleaning up the rubble at the WTC--Controlled Demolition, Inc.--says in its publicity that its systems "segment steel components into pieces matching the lifting capacity of the available equipment" (quoted in Eric Hufschmid's video, "Painful Deceptions" and in NPH, 2nd., 178).

15. See NPH 179n74

16. For points 9 and 10, see NPH 19-20.

(NPH I believe refers to David Ray Griffin's earlier book:
The New Pearl Harbor.

fancygirl
06-27-2006, 01:59 AM
Oh good lord.

Watch this:

It might lend you some understanding of what happens to something made out of beer cans hits bomb proof walls at 500 miles an hour.


are you SERIOUSLY telling me that I should compare a Boeing 757 weighing in at over 60 tons with a wingspan of almost 125 feet and a tail that's almost 40 feet tall to something made out of BEER CANS???

You do realize that the plane in your video was called an F4 phantom jet; it was a military fighter jet. Once again, apples and oranges.

I found this site:


Let's compare:
A Boeing 757 is over 60 tons (a ton being 2,000 pounds we'll convert that number to 120,000 pounds)
An F4 Phantom is 30,919 pounds to 48,391 pounds (empty vs. max takeoff)

A Boeing 757 has a wingspan of almost 125 feet.
An F4 Phantom has a wingspan of about 38 feet.

A Boeing 757 has a height of almost forty feet.
An F4 Phantom has a height of 16.4 feet.

One source states that the Boeing 757 was going 480 miles an hour.
Your video puts the F4 Phantom at 500 miles an hour.

So, I would expect more damage to happen to something that's only a little larger than a third of a Boeing and going faster.

And after watching the video (I watched yours, you going to watch mine now?) I get your point about vaporizing, but I can't match up speeds or body type between a military fighter jet and a commercial airliner.. However, you could tell that the wall got affected by the wings, and not just the body of the plane...so why was there only an 18 foot diameter hole in the wall of the Pentagon? There should have been impact prints from the wings and tail section. And if the plane vaporized, then how did the government supposedly identify the bodies by fingerprints?

Here's another website for you re: the Pentagon:

Deogol
06-27-2006, 06:26 AM
You need to learn some physics. The size the 747 at 480 miles an hour means there was that much more kinetic energy in the blast.

This stuff you're falling into isn't based on truth or physics or physical evidence - it is obtuse rationalizing for those with a hatred of the current administration or the US in general. It is a chance for the REAL tin foil hats to say "See see! We got ya!"

Hopefully we won't be hearing from you about how we did NOT land on the moon. At that point I will have to put you on my entertainingly mad poster's list.

Jay Zeno
06-27-2006, 08:02 AM
I've seen the analysis of a 757 hitting the ground first and, as it disintegrates, ricocheting into the hardened structure of the Pentagon. The path of destruction is entirely consistent with the materials, the energy, and the angle.

Besides that, remains that were found in the building were identified through massive and thorough identification procedures, using hundreds of people, to almost all of the people on-board American Flight 77. Several people's remains were never found, and there were also remains that were too cooked to be identifiable. All the remains were claimed by the families except for the remains of the hijackers.

So that begs the question if the conspirators had time to take these people off the original flight, then hide the 757, kill the people on board, chop them up and flash-fry them, and then scatter those remains through the Pentagon immediately after the crash, avoiding the emergency teams swarming the area.

Paris
06-27-2006, 04:09 PM
^so he was sure that he saw a airliner and not a military type plane? It's odd because the hole is rather small and there's not broken off wings or pieces. -shrug- What exactly did he see? And while I'm not saying this is the case, I wonder how susceptible to suggestion a person in deep trauma is.


I trust him on this one. He did serve in the airforce during the first gulf war, as a pilot for troop/ cargo planes. So he isn't a completely uninformed observer.

But obviously, if you want to believe that our governtment attacked our own people as an excuse just to go to war, nothing anyone tells you to the contray will change your mind. There are plenty of people out there that believe the world is flat, too. Or that the moon missions were faked.

Don't allow yourself to be too guillible, but definatly keep you mind open to the possibility of conspiracy.

Did you attend the 9/11 convention in LA last week?

fancygirl
06-27-2006, 06:26 PM
I'm not a hundred percent convinced, mostly just reading and questioning.

MishaBliss
06-27-2006, 09:16 PM
this "theory" is a bunch of crap. seriously.

Agreed.


Maybe aliens did it? (Or insert other conspiracy theory here)

fancygirl
06-27-2006, 10:48 PM
::)Oh, Pan Duh, you big teaser.

you all keep acting like anything that comes my way I'm likely to believe as long as it's against the government. Not true; I honestly think this is the first thing that I've reacted to so strongly. But, I am enjoying reading the books and asking questions and trying to run down answers that may or may not ever be answered for me.

Jay Zeno
06-28-2006, 12:04 AM
you all keep acting like anything that comes my way I'm likely to believe as long as it's against the government. When you buy into such a fanciful theory that readily, and argue against contrary views, yeah, it does leave that impression.

~Nikki~
06-28-2006, 11:26 AM
Fancygirl,

Remember that knowledge is power. Don't let others who want to stop you from considering other possibilities beside those that have been pre approved by the RNC intimidate you into not looking into all the available information. At times like this maybe keep in mind the following proverb.

A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion.

fancygirl
06-28-2006, 11:33 AM
When you buy into such a fanciful theory that readily, and argue against contrary views, yeah, it does leave that impression.

hmmm, I guess in my mind I'm not arguing. I've already stated that, yeah, you guys are probably right, but at the moment, there's a lot of things that I'm reading that DO raise questions. If what's-his-face is right about kinetic energy, cool. I'm essentially fact-checking at the moment.

and as for leaving an impression, that's cool. But it's odd how some people depend more on teasing or on antagonism than really addressing the points, or by simply saying: I believe something different because of x, y, and z.


And thanks Nikki for the encouragement to continue to ask questions (which I emphasized because I'm not saying "You're wrong, read this list of facts" and yet people are treating me like that.) People bring up points, and because I continue to still believe something different I'm supporting WHY I think that way in the face of their points (thus the rather lengthy excerpts.) You can believe either point of view, or neither, but I'm trying to avoid "fanciful" vagueness in researching this, and when I bring tidbits to the table, Jay, I don't think of it as arguing that the other person is wrong; I'm showing WHY I think the way I do re: this topic. I'm trying to show that I didn't just wake up one morning and thing "fuck, the government is out to get me," yet it's been very popular so far to treat me with derision.

Responders can react any way that they want, but I think that this could be turned into a very good conversation where people discuss why they believe different things without turning it into an argument, or thinking in terms of a "you against me" mentality.

goo321
06-28-2006, 12:31 PM
There are things the more closely you look at something the more confusing it gets. watched too many jfk assassination stuff, and i remember it took a decade or more to figure out a sharp noise on a recording. They analyzed the location of the recorder, and other details. some things donít need to be analyzed so thoroughly to figure what happened.

Correct me if Iím wrong but osoma has admitted to the wtc and pentagon already. does this mean bush and al-qaeda are working together?

Fox had an hour long show a few years ago about the moon landing and its fakeness. Anyone with an open mind would have concluded the moon landing was faked. They brought up many points about the landing that made no sense. They would show a picture of the landing craft take off and the ground had no burn marks. They would question the shadows and had a bunch of other points.
You need to hear the other side to realize its intelligent nonsense. and a larger perspective and world view also.