View Full Version : Can it NOT be about Sex? (Please?)
mr_punk
07-01-2006, 04:48 PM
Are you talking about me? Or some other person? What is it I posted that you think is a knee slapper? We could all use a good laugh.gee, i don't recall specifically pointing anyone out. although, several names did come to mind. you must think the odds are pretty good you're on that list, huh?
Alright that's a sensible answer.So in what context would a dancer be genuine? And if you were present in the same context, why would it be ridiculous to expect genuineness?why, thank you. sorry, i can't say the same about your question. although, it looks like another knee slapper.
dlabtot
07-01-2006, 05:58 PM
gee, i don't recall specifically pointing anyone out. although, several names did come to mind. you must think the odds are pretty good you're on that list, huh?
in other words, you're completely full of it, you're accusing me of asking 'retarded questions', when actually you are just talking about other people. There's certainly no shortage of 'retarded' comments and questions around
why, thank you. sorry, i can't say the same about your question. although, it looks like another knee slapper.
Ha ha, gotcha }:D
mr_punk
07-01-2006, 10:10 PM
in other words, you're completely full of it, you're accusing me of asking 'retarded questions', when actually you are just talking about other people. There's certainly no shortage of 'retarded' comments and questions aroundIOW? now, how have you had this bizarre obsession for telling other people what they think, what they really meant, etc?
Phil-W
07-02-2006, 12:58 PM
sure, attitudes can change, but her attitude isn't the point. your attitude is the point. i mean, i've never seen an epidemic of posts from customers, describing how often they get hammered with various requests from strippers to become their friend. but hey, some guys just can't resist a challenge.
mr-punk,
We sort of wandered off the original topic, which was GenWar's question about the degree of sex people thought was involved in a lap dance.
My point was that it was possible to treat it as erotic entertainment, (with the emphasis on entertainment). I'd also further say that the attitude with which you go into a strip venue would colour your interaction with the dancer.
Go in looking for mileage, and you'll probably gravitate to those dancers that deal with that part of the spectrum. Go in with a more light hearted attitude and you probably end up more comfortable dealing with dancers at the "light-hearted" end of the spectrum.
Your expectations and attitude are probably going to predetermine what happens to you, (or me), inside a strip venue. To a degree, talking to a dancer is a bit like talking to any stranger we might meet in a bar/sports ground, etc - we feel more comfortable if they share our "world view".
I've heard it said that a strip venue is smoke and mirrors - how much do our personal attitudes distort the image we perceive and how closely does that image conform to the reality of what's happening?
Phil.
dlabtot
07-02-2006, 01:10 PM
IOW? now, how have you had this bizarre obsession for telling other people what they think, what they really meant, etc?
I don't know what you think ( or care, for that matter), I know what you said about me. And what you said was not true. LOL
dayzed
07-02-2006, 08:19 PM
Go in looking for mileage, and you'll probably gravitate to those dancers that deal with that part of the spectrum. Go in with a more light hearted attitude and you probably end up more comfortable dealing with dancers at the "light-hearted" end of the spectrum.
I couldn't disagree more w/ the dichotomy you are attempting to set up here -- as though the extras hound is somehow not as "light-hearted" as the customer who comes in to feed some other compulsion (say, the compulsion to create platonic OTC stripper "friendships"). I'm a burgeoning hound and I'm about as light-hearted as can be when I enter a club.
Re: larger thread... why even bother w/ trying to separate out the sexual from the SC experience? Some want to go all the way w/ extras -- others cut it off before it gets to that point. But, we are all operating along the same continuum here. Sexuality (along w/ $) is the essential lubricant of the SC machine.
Miss_Eliza
07-02-2006, 09:23 PM
This has been a great thread. I really enjoyed it.
I also thought the quote was very well writen. I agree entirely, but I have never said it so well. I would have to say that this type of customer is my favorite. He is the guy that I look for. We always enjoy each others company. He never minds that I only do no-touch dances, or that I'm engaged. Kinda not the point of the thread, but I ramble a lot.
evan_essence
07-02-2006, 10:38 PM
... why even bother w/ trying to separate out the sexual from the SC experience? Some want to go all the way w/ extras -- others cut it off before it gets to that point. But, we are all operating along the same continuum here. Sexuality (along w/ $) is the essential lubricant of the SC machine.The reason you would justifiably separate these things is not to pass moral judgment on different levels of desire, but so customers can find a club that meets their desires and so clubs can target their marketing to a chosen audience. You guys are NOT all after the same thing; I see that over and over. I believe you correctly state there's a continuum, or scale, you fall onto, but I contend the guys at the opposite ends of the scale are different enough that they are not going to be satisfied occupying the same establishment. (Look at the friction here over it.) Each customer has a range of satisfactory activities and each dancer has the same. I think a club should aim itself at a certain customer segment and let the other segments find venues aimed at them. I know, I'm pipe dreamin'.
-Ev
mr_punk
07-02-2006, 10:39 PM
We sort of wandered off the original topic, which was GenWar's question about the degree of sex people thought was involved in a lap dance.did we wander off-topic? i mean, you did hold yourself up as an example as did some others. after all, we are what we eat.
My point was that it was possible to treat it as erotic entertainment, (with the emphasis on entertainment). I'd also further say that the attitude with which you go into a strip venue would colour your interaction with the dancer.i disagree. i'd say his attitude would color the kind of services a customer would seek.
Go in looking for mileage, and you'll probably gravitate to those dancers that deal with that part of the spectrum. Go in with a more light hearted attitude and you probably end up more comfortable dealing with dancers at the "light-hearted" end of the spectrum.bzzzt wrong, Phil. neither dancer makes me uncomfortable. like i said, i'm not that insecure. they're both sex workers to me. i don't go around thinking one is a dirty slut and the other is a temple virgin.
I've heard it said that a strip venue is smoke and mirrors - how much do our personal attitudes distort the image we perceive and how closely does that image conform to the reality of what's happening?well, it shouldn't distort much at all. if you keep in mind, they're sex workers. however, when it comes down to customers actually following that piece of advice. it usually goes into one ear and right out the other. but hey, that just means more popcorn for me.
Re: larger thread... why even bother w/ trying to separate out the sexual from the SC experience? Some want to go all the way w/ extras -- others cut it off before it gets to that point. But, we are all operating along the same continuum here. Sexuality (along w/ $) is the essential lubricant of the SC machine.i agree. sex workers can satisfy all sorts of appetites. OTOH, some customers have insatiable appetites.
dayzed
07-02-2006, 11:10 PM
The reason you would justifiably separate these things is not to pass moral judgment on different levels of desire, but so customers can find a club that meets their desires and so clubs can target their marketing to a chosen audience.
Okay. But, unless I missed it, I don't think Gen (and the other prior responders) were approaching the question from that kind of pragmatic perspective.
The excerpt seems to suggest that there is some kind of authentic spiritual nourishment that can be found in the SC, and I just don't buy it. The validation that the sad-sack "protagonist" seeks (and believes he is receiving) is actually destructive, if for no other reason than it prolongs (via an artificial restoration of the spirit) the sad cycle of his life.
Come to think of it, Miller should have made Willy Loman a strip club junkie.
mr_punk
07-03-2006, 05:55 AM
The reason you would justifiably separate these things is not to pass moral judgment on different levels of desire, but so customers can find a club that meets their desires and so clubs can target their marketing to a chosen audience.okay, but in reality, sc do no such thing (not that i blame them). everything else has always been the customer's responsibility.
I believe you correctly state there's a continuum, or scale, you fall onto, but I contend the guys at the opposite ends of the scale are different enough that they are not going to be satisfied occupying the same establishment. (Look at the friction here over it.)that would be true, if the clubs did target to a chosen audience. however, like i said in another thread. all kinds of services (both official and unofficial) are for sale in a sc. it's like a large buffet. furthermore, a customer doesn't have to eat every dish he sees.
I think a club should aim itself at a certain customer segment and let the other segments find venues aimed at them. I know, I'm pipe dreamin'.big time.
Asbat
07-03-2006, 09:41 AM
the point is not all of us are after just sex. it's definitely in their on list but it isn't always number one.
for me it's a fringe beneift. and i've told them this. the ones that respond badly to this statement don't receive my business. if a dancer thinks of me as nothing more than a sadistic pervert. then that dancer also only thinks of herself as two tits a hole and a heartbeat. and that just ruins the whole thing for me.
i also only ever get 1 girl until she desides that i'm no longer worth it. and i'll find another that suits my fancy.
i also am not worth all that much to a dancer i fancy. i come in tip well and get just 1 dance. so i'm worth about 30-35 bucks a night if a dancer can keep me happy. which isn't alot for a dancer but when you consider i come in 2 times a week. that's an easy 250-300 bucks. from a guy who just wants to feel special not who thinks you need to be rescued or that i need to be your SO.
evan_essence
07-04-2006, 03:17 AM
Okay. But, unless I missed it, I don't think Gen (and the other prior responders) were approaching the question from that kind of pragmatic perspective.Perhaps it wasn't framed as a business transaction like I stated it, but the bottom line is that they want a club that fulfills what they're seeking.
The excerpt seems to suggest that there is some kind of authentic spiritual nourishment that can be found in the SC, and I just don't buy it. The validation that the sad-sack "protagonist" seeks (and believes he is receiving) is actually destructive, if for no other reason than it prolongs (via an artificial restoration of the spirit) the sad cycle of his life.I wouldn't give the SC interaction that much credit. To me, the excerpt is pointing out that it's escapism. There's nothing inherently harmful in that. For example, I engage in masturbatory fantasies all the time; it doesn't negatively impact sex with my girlfriend. I suppose it could if it meant I grew less attentive to her. On the other hand, I don't think it enhances our sex life either. I suppose it could if I felt I carried some extra energy derived from my fantasies into our reality. But I don't feel I do. Instead, it merely pleasures me at the time and is my private time. Thus, how harmful or beneficial escapism is depends on the individual's approach and attitude.
-Ev
evan_essence
07-04-2006, 03:43 AM
okay, but in reality, sc do no such thing (not that i blame them). everything else has always been the customer's responsibility.I fully realize a majority of SCs don't do that. My point is that the reason for a customer to delineate what he's seeking is to attempt to find a place that caters to that, or to complain that such a place doesn't yet exist.
that would be true, if the clubs did target to a chosen audience. however, like i said in another thread. all kinds of services (both official and unofficial) are for sale in a sc. it's like a large buffet.I understand that's the way it is, but I believe the points the excerpt make also make the case for an alternative, i.e., marketing to the customer it describes. Just as not all restaurants are large buffets, neither should all strip clubs be. Pizza Hut does well serving only pizza (or having only pizza on the buffet). That's a perfectly viable business model even if it's one not to your liking.
furthermore, a customer doesn't have to eat every dish he sees.Good, let's get at least 50 percent fat and ugly girls in every club. It shouldn't diminish yours or anyone else's experience much since you don't have to eat every dish you see. It won't diminish the customer base, will it? Likewise, a club becoming a sh*t hole doesn't chase customers away.
big time.Thanks for the confirmation. I look forward to your continued efforts to ensure these concepts stay out of reach.
-Ev
mr_punk
07-04-2006, 05:47 AM
Okay. But, unless I missed it, I don't think Gen (and the other prior responders) were approaching the question from that kind of pragmatic perspective.oh, that was totally evan's perspective. a stripper's perspective i might add. so, don't be fooled by her seemingly, selfless altruism. it's also about," getting-rid-of-those-nasty-bitches-cutting-into-my-money". the funny thing is that they'll just find another reason to claw at each other eyeballs.
The excerpt seems to suggest that there is some kind of authentic spiritual nourishment that can be found in the SC, and I just don't buy it.although, i don't think that was her point. however, i don't disagree with the statement. IMO, a customer is only buying a sex worker's expertise.
if a dancer thinks of me as nothing more than a sadistic pervert. then that dancer also only thinks of herself as two tits a hole and a heartbeat. and that just ruins the whole thing for me.a sadistic pervert? perhaps, you're overreacting. maybe, she only thinks of you as an ATM machine. surely, that won't ruin your day.
mr_punk
07-04-2006, 05:58 AM
I fully realize a majority of SCs don't do that. My point is that the reason for a customer to delineate what he's seeking is to attempt to find a place that caters to that, or to complain that such a place doesn't yet exist.yes, evan, but if even if such a thing did happen. do you really think the complaints would stop?
I understand that's the way it is, but I believe the points the excerpt make also make the case for an alternative, i.e., marketing to the customer it describes. Just as not all restaurants are large buffets, neither should all strip clubs be. Pizza Hut does well serving only pizza (or having only pizza on the buffet). That's a perfectly viable business model even if it's one not to your liking.it has nothing to do with my like or dislike, evan. officially, your industry already promotes clubs as classy entertainment with hot, but unattainable, girl scouts only meant for "fantasy". unofficially, it's a different story. so, the problem i see (which really isn't a problem for me) isn't with your model. the problem is the people within your industry.
Good, let's get at least 50 percent fat and ugly girls in every club. It shouldn't diminish yours or anyone else's experience much since you don't have to eat every dish you see. It won't diminish the customer base, will it? Likewise, a club becoming a sh*t hole doesn't chase customers away.are you telling me it isn't that way now? seriously, it won't diminish my experience that much because even if a sc was full of supermodels. in the end, it's always going to be the customer's responsibility to separate the chaff from the wheat.
Thanks for the confirmation. I look forward to your continued efforts to ensure these concepts stay out of reach.who me? you know, that accusatory tone of yours upsets me so much...i can barely finish my cup of coffee. And you know how much i need my coffee.
Perhaps it wasn't framed as a business transaction like I stated it, but the bottom line is that they want a club that fulfills what they're seeking.and we all know how widespread the people in your industry are interested in catering to their customer's wishes.
evan_essence
07-08-2006, 02:49 PM
yes, evan, but if even if such a thing did happen. do you really think the complaints would stop?In my experience, yes, a club that's well managed and upholds certain standards garners fewer complaints by dancers and customers alike.
it has nothing to do with my like or dislike, evan.I'm sorry I don't believe for a second that you're practicing objective analysis, so please forgive me for sticking to the conclusion that you're here promoting your own agenda.
officially, your industry already promotes clubs as classy entertainment with hot, but unattainable, girl scouts only meant for "fantasy". unofficially, it's a different story. so, the problem i see (which really isn't a problem for me) isn't with your model. the problem is the people within your industry.I would agree that the ones who don't reflect what you described as the official line are a problem.
are you telling me it isn't that way now? seriously, it won't diminish my experience that much because even if a sc was full of supermodels. in the end, it's always going to be the customer's responsibility to separate the chaff from the wheat.I think you've hit on a key reason for the downward spiral that strip clubs find themselves in. They feel it's not their job to do quality control; it's the customer's. Odd business philosophy for any business other than a monopoly, doncha think?
who me? you know, that accusatory tone of yours upsets me so much...i can barely finish my cup of coffee. And you know how much i need my coffee.How peculiar. You don't ever get to me at all. Well, not in a negative way. I do laugh at your bullshit.
and we all know how widespread the people in your industry are interested in catering to their customer's wishes.Oh, I'd say it's as widespread as guys like you having an interest in the art inherent in my spreading eagle.
-Ev
mr_punk
07-09-2006, 07:47 PM
I'm sorry I don't believe for a second that you're practicing objective analysis, so please forgive me for sticking to the conclusion that you're here promoting your own agenda.and what agenda would that be? the outlaw mentality has always been prevalent in sc?
I would agree that the ones who don't reflect what you described as the official line are a problem.the industry is what it's always has been. it's the same old car with a new paint job. if you give a jalopy a new paint job. it may look nice on the outside, but it's still the same ol' shitbox underneath the shiny exterior. however, it would be prudent for any potential buyer to kick the tires and check under the hood before purchase. a new paint job isn't going to make the engine run like new. caveat emptor.
I think you've hit on a key reason for the downward spiral that strip clubs find themselves in. They feel it's not their job to do quality control; it's the customer's. Odd business philosophy for any business other than a monopoly, doncha think?actually, no, for the some reasons explained above. also, customers also deserve blame. many customers aren't that discriminating in terms of quality. the same guy who won't put up with bad service in any other industry, will put up with it when it comes to the sex industry. so, instead of putting their money back in their pockets and taking a walk. they'll settle for anything and, most importantly, continue to pay for the privilege.
evan_essence
07-10-2006, 09:31 AM
and what agenda would that be? the outlaw mentality has always been prevalent in sc?To teach your worldview of strippers to others, which goes beyond a consumer-savvy understanding of us into holding us in utter contempt.
the industry is what it's always has been. it's the same old car with a new paint job. if you give a jalopy a new paint job. it may look nice on the outside, but it's still the same ol' shitbox underneath the shiny exterior.Yes, I should have guessed. A jalopy such as yourself feels more revitalized with a HJ or BJ than a paint job.
many customers aren't that discriminating in terms of quality. ... so, instead of putting their money back in their pockets and taking a walk. they'll settle for anything and, most importantly, continue to pay for the privilege.I'm afraid many of them were that discriminating but have already left the building. Many of those who are left have looser standards in terms of what they want and who they want it from.
-Ev
mr_punk
07-10-2006, 05:56 PM
To teach your worldview of strippers to others, which goes beyond a consumer-savvy understanding of us into holding us in utter contempt.oh, don't take it personal. i hold everyone in contempt. strippers, customers, my neighbors, dogs, butterflies, etc. i like to spread it around.
Yes, I should have guessed. A jalopy such as yourself feels more revitalized with a HJ or BJ than a paint job.actually, i'm pretty dehydrated and worn out after cardiac arresting BJ. which is why i drink Gatorade <shameless product placement> to replinish those lost essential fluids and minerals.
I'm afraid many of them were that discriminating but have already left the building.what did you expect them to do? drink the kool-aid forever?
Asbat
07-17-2006, 09:55 PM
thx genwar
I read that book you mentioned. confirmed alot of stuff I knew was going on behind the scenes but didn't know why
xdamage
07-29-2006, 05:17 PM
OK...I had a bad day, so I thought I might cheer myself up by climbing up on my favorite dead horse and seeing if I can get some support for my tired, tired point. This time, a different tact...
-----------------------------------------------------
All I am looking for is someone (ANYONE!) besides JZ and Mr. Jordan, to feel me on this. Can I get an amen? (P.S. And not just because, after today, I seriously NEED it.)
-gen
Sex to me includes the whole seduction that often starts with simple flirting and talk, and all of the feelings men and women associate with being important to someone else that preceeds the physical parts of sex. It's all part of the same thing to me, so I guess if you mean some guys go to enjoy that aspect of sex, then I agree.
Still I also agree with some of the other posters here. A big differentiator between truth and BS in this area can be dealt with using one of two simple questions.
If you are a customer... Would you feel the way you feel and be spending the $$s you are if she was ugly/old/deformed?
If you are a stripper... Would you give him/her the time of day if he wasn't paying you $$s for your time?
There are exceptions of course, but a lot of the self created BS can be swept away pretty quickly if you answer the questions above honestly.