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Moneywise
07-11-2006, 11:52 PM
Outside of the self-congratulatory construction, how does that differ from what I said? You get a rush from "plucking" a stripper from the club, why?

Testosterone.

dlabtot
07-12-2006, 12:29 AM
Some of us play for both teams. I understand. They have a name for those that play for both teams.
Do tell.... what exactly is it that you are afraid to say?


Cue the Crying Game music maestro. http://www.lachmeister.de/images/smilies/Sex/852.gif

I'm not exactly sure what insult is intended here either... I saw The Crying Game... the big surprise was that he/she/it had a dick... yeah, I got one... whoop t doo ... big surprise...what is your point?

mr_punk
07-12-2006, 05:27 AM
For someone working in the sex industry, you don't seem to grasp this very basic concept.that's par for the course across the whole sex industry. ironically, many people who actually work in the business can't distinguish shit from shinola about the actual product they sell. fortunately, it's starting to catch up with some of them and bite them in the ass.

Well, of course they are different from my perspective. But considering how much punk bitches about the drama, the talking, the girls that don't deliver, etc., it doesn't seem like the most convenient option to me.seem? so, basically, this is just another instance of you talking out of your ass again. at least, when you talked out of your ass about porn. you were honest enough to admit that you were not a consumer.

Jenny
07-12-2006, 08:17 AM
And if a customer gives you $1000 for a private lap dance that's between you and him, no one else. I know you walk a tightrope so I'm dropping the stripper/prostitute analogies.
Okay - let me put it this way (I take for granted that everyone knows what I'm thinking). I would agree that I perform acts of a sexual nature, but think there is a difference between what is essentially fluidless foreplay and sex.


But now you can feel their pain, right?
Well, I dunno, I think I took it pretty well. I certainly wasn't all "well, if I'm not good enough for you to take my email I'm not going to dance for you." I was happy to accept the relationship on an ITC level.


Of course you are human, first, so are your customers. Oddly enough, I share your problem, I almost never find women that demand that I fuck them for money.
Evidently I'm the only one who watches So You Think You Can Dance. My pop culture references are lost on you guys. And my customers... human beings... you don't say? Kidding. I like my customers. The customers I don't like are usually not mine.


Ok, that was shameless self-promotion. It's a character defect. And they're almost never even my sexual equal. Dammit, there I go again.
Oh, well, now we're all very intrigued...


Actually this thread has a lot of good points. In my opinion it's more about civilized discussion than who's right or wrong. It's made me think about my own motives and if I even want to continue SC'ing.
Oh goddammit, I have to be civilzed? Not really my thing, so much.

Jenny
07-12-2006, 08:21 AM
seem? so, basically, this is just another instance of you talking out of your ass again. at least, when you talked out of your ass about porn. you were honest enough to admit that you were not a consumer.
I'm sorry, was there some confusion here? Did anyone here think I was a seeker of OTC services? Or that my perspective was anything but that of a dancer, and that I was interpreting your guys comments through that lens? I mean, I just looked at the top of my screen and my name is still Jenny. And, I'm only "talking out of my ass" if you discount any point of view that is not yours - I clearly have a legitimate and immediate interest in the topic.

Jenny
07-12-2006, 08:23 AM
Testosterone.
So, you get off on the proverbial "chase", not the convenience? Pretty much like I said earlier?

dayzed
07-12-2006, 08:44 AM
For me, the strongest illustration of the appeal of ITC-to-OTC (vs. escort) can actually be found in the testimonials, for lack of a better term, of dancers who previously "dabbled" in OTC. (Including a couple of posts in this thread.) If I interpret them correctly, these dalliances incorporated elements of impulse, whimsy, attraction, chemistry, no? Paying for it is fine, maybe even preferable (for me and I think many other junkies), but if at all possible I would still like these elements to be present, and these are precisely the elements which (I imagine) would NOT be present when contracting an escort.

The only "skill" I would like to have is the ability to distinguish b/n the flat-out provider, who is merely using the SC as a recruiting ground, and the stripper who will go OTC provided that the chemistry (in addition to the money) is right and the customer meets a much broader and more comprehensive set of conditions. Beyond that, I don't see much skill in actually closing the deal, and I don't like words like "chase, hunt" etc. as I don't want to glorify what is taking place.

I am sure that CP, Mr.P and others would view the drawing of lines of demarcation along the sex worker continuum (i.e. full-time ho vs. stripper/occasional ho) as naive or just pointless, and maybe they would be correct, but that's where I am in my "evolution."

Nicolina
07-12-2006, 09:46 AM
Then where is the chase? Where is the skill, the game which is so valuable here? Again, I find it difficult to believe that it is all about "spot the girl who fucks the customers."


You know, Jenny, maybe I am giving the Junkies too much credit here, but I do see their motivations as considerably less nefarious than you do.

I think it's not so much about "spotting the girl who fucks the customers" as "spotting the girl who will fuck me."

With an escort, there is no choice involved (on the girl's part). As a guy, you order up FS, the chick shows up at your hotel, you get FS. There's no...drama. (By that I don’t mean “stripper drama,” but….human drama, y’know?) No suspense. No way to convince yourself that her willingness to fuck you has anything to do with your attractiveness or interpersonal skills or persuasiveness. And no doubt that you will get more or less what you paid for. In short, no “chase.”

Unless you are in it purely for the physical release and have no need for an ego-boost or an interaction that feels somehow more genuine, ordering up a guaranteed, bought-and-paid-for fuck just doesn't sound very compelling….

OTOH....With a dancer, you can be pretty certain that she isn't taking home every customer who propositioned her that night or that week. You're probably one of several who made a serious offer. But....will she choose to take you up on it? And if so....Doesn't that imply that you are hotter/richer/more trustworthy/more attractive/more pleasant/more fuckable than the guys she turned down....? ...Or, at the very least, less repulsive? :P

I'm sure some of the boys will protest mightily, but, as far as I can tell, it comes down to a case not of "Aha! I wore the bitch down!" but "She's choosing to fuck me for money because she really likes me..." :O Maybe "likes" is the not quite the right word....

But, as one of those stripper-cum-sometime-hos, I can attest to the fact that on the rare occasion that I agreed to do OTC, it was not with a customer I found repulsive. To say there was “chemistry” is probably taking it too far, maybe because these encounters were usually tinged with fear….(It is, after all, illegal, and then there is the scary fact that prostitutes are often victims of violence…) Nevertheless-- sometimes it was with a guy I might well have fucked for free.

When you’re a full-fledged pro, that is not going to be the case very often.

For guys who are married, or older, or have otherwise been “out of the game” for awhile, I think the process of procuring OTC action with a girl who isn’t really a full-time ho approximates the experience of picking up a chick in a bar for a quick fuck on the basis of mutual attraction. On the one hand, he can ignore the exchange of money and tell himself that she probably would have done it for free. On the other hand, the money can also assuage his guilt about cheating on his wife or girlfriend.

Mastridonicus
07-12-2006, 10:52 AM
I think what makes me look at this entire thread with one raised eyebrow is the mere fact that I understand that there is so much gray area that really, it's helps my sanity much more to keep the facts about what/who I do and how, entirely to myself. I love reading about them, but honestly, it's never 100% O.K. in everyone's eyes.

Jenny
07-12-2006, 11:17 AM
You know, Jenny, maybe I am giving the Junkies too much credit here, but I do see their motivations as considerably less nefarious than you do.
Well, the nefariosity varies; I do read their reasonings in the context of other posts about how they treat SOs, women in general, their Trip Reports, and their attitudes towards women here. So for some the reasoning they espouse seems a little more genuine than others.


I think it's not so much about "spotting the girl who fucks the customers" as "spotting the girl who will fuck me."
Okay, I get what you are saying. Perhaps I am taking some of them a little too much at face value - many guys here act very jaded, and I believe that.


Unless you are in it purely for the physical release and have no need for an ego-boost or an interaction that feels somehow more genuine, ordering up a guaranteed, bought-and-paid-for fuck just doesn't sound very compelling….
I don't know, I think that is kind of simplistic. One of my former regulars had a standing offer for me, and what I always said was "No, thank you. But I'll call if I ever really, really need money." It didn't seem to ruin it for him in the slightest. Also guys see escorts all the time, and presumably they have their own brand of Escort Shit, and can be every bit as charming and interesting and convincing as we can.


But, as one of those stripper-cum-sometime-hos, I can attest to the fact that on the rare occasion that I agreed to do OTC, it was not with a customer I found repulsive. To say there was “chemistry” is probably taking it too far, maybe because these encounters were usually tinged with fear….(It is, after all, illegal, and then there is the scary fact that prostitutes are often victims of violence…) Nevertheless-- sometimes it was with a guy I might well have fucked for free.
See, there's the thing. If it is a guy I really want, I probably WOULD fuck him for free (if he wanted me, before easy_e brings THAT up again). I think I might have a more complicated relationship to the lapdance and the repulsivity of my customers than some other dancers (actually a couple of weeks ago I got into this conversation about the inherent narcissism of dancing, and how the "repulsive" guys (like the guys who repel you, not the guys who are physically unattractive) are the guys who just get in the way of that.


For guys who are married, or older, or have otherwise been “out of the game” for awhile, I think the process of procuring OTC action with a girl who isn’t really a full-time ho approximates the experience of picking up a chick in a bar for a quick fuck on the basis of mutual attraction. On the one hand, he can ignore the exchange of money and tell himself that she probably would have done it for free. On the other hand, the money can also assuage his guilt about cheating on his wife or girlfriend.
Yeah, but there we go again. Although I think it is sort of cute how you are kind of maternally clucking over these guys - like "They're just boys at heart." They don't generally sound that naive, out of it, or even easy to please.

Casual Observer
07-12-2006, 12:14 PM
What Nic said.

Jenny must be working in a different industry environment altogether.

Docido
07-12-2006, 02:52 PM
Jenny you’re obsessed about finding coercion in each and every stripclub interaction. I don't deny that it sometimes exists, but in most of the Holy Grail reports I don't see it. If I accept your definition, every stripper who sells a service for cash is being bullied. Just because one party has the cash and the other party has the cookie doesn’t mean there is always intimidation. That’s the kind of thesis you’d only find in a fanatical Anarchist/Marxist/Maoist tract. In that case, I guess we should re-title this thread, “Stripclubs and Market/Social Hegemonies.” In a nutshell, you’re stretching the coercion argument/definition to its breaking point. I take it for granted (well in most cases, there are always exceptions) that most people offering or accepting Holy Grails do so of their own free will. They calculate the moral, economic, erotic, and personal costs and act accordingly. They’re not, in most cases, being tricked, forced, or otherwise manipulated into doing something totally against their will.

Or maybe I just need to be more jaded. ;)

Daniela
07-12-2006, 02:57 PM
Eh..it's human nature


Not to get Aristotelian here, but pursuing and attaining what is perceived desirable is most likely motivated to validate the belief: I am just as desirable as the desired. The fact that strippers are more selective and are endlessly propositioned, may cause some customers to place them at a higher level, above escorts or for some, civilian women. I think the majority would agree that anything considered desirable on this earth requires overcoming some sort of challenge for: Money, Power, and Women

Although people say they are open minded, there could still be a negative association to the term/s escort, prostitute, or hooker--recent research has published something on subconscious discrimination. I don't feel like getting into it, because it focuses on racism…I'm sure people get the point.

About this whole topic: The patterns I've extrapolated from some of these posts lead to some sort of class system. Junkies want to elevate themselves or believe they already are, in theory, part of an elite class of [whatever ego stroking label they would like to add in here].

I dunno, but labeling my goodies "The HOLY GRAIL" has def boosted my ego. :P

Chicagoeditor
07-12-2006, 03:17 PM
The fact that strippers are more selective and are endlessly propositioned, may cause some customers to place them at a higher level.

However, since most women are propositioned or oggled, why are strippers special? I think it's because we custies assume dancers are more knowing, worldly or sexually street smart than civilian women. This is largely an illusion, of course. I've met civilian sex freaks and chaste, married, contentedly coupled dancers. Still, illusions are powerful. Yumm.}:D

Moneywise
07-12-2006, 03:46 PM
THANK YOU to the mods for moving this fluff outside of the actual holy grail thread. I promise to play nice. }:D really. ;)

azcustomer
07-12-2006, 05:25 PM
Unless you are in it purely for the physical release and have no need for an ego-boost or an interaction that feels somehow more genuine, ordering up a guaranteed, bought-and-paid-for fuck just doesn't sound very compelling….
Yes, but newbies aside, relationships started ITC rarely have much genuine about them. Even strippers you take home for free always are hiding something from you so that THEY are more palatable.

OTOH....With a dancer, you can be pretty certain that she isn't taking home every customer who propositioned her that night or that week. You're probably one of several who made a serious offer. But....will she choose to take you up on it? And if so....Doesn't that imply that you are hotter/richer/more trustworthy/more attractive/more pleasant/more fuckable than the guys she turned down....? ...Or, at the very least, less repulsive? :P
Yes, but she went home with you why? Because she "can't control herself around you"? Again, newbies aside, this fantasy is never real. And what is it about yourself that she found attractive? Certainly in the 30 minutes to 2 hours you've known each other, she has built her expectations for you based upon stereotypes. Some guys like the game of role playing to get you in the sack, but after a while the novelty wears off.

I'm sure some of the boys will protest mightily, but, as far as I can tell, it comes down to a case not of "Aha! I wore the bitch down!" but "She's choosing to fuck me for money because she really likes me..." :O Maybe "likes" is the not quite the right word...
Yes, maybe "likes" is not the right word. Maybe she just lost temporary control. (I'm ignoring the money part). Again, newbies will learn this lesson few times before they learn to control themselves and their emotions.

But, as one of those stripper-cum-sometime-hos, I can attest to the fact that on the rare occasion that I agreed to do OTC, it was not with a customer I found repulsive. To say there was “chemistry” is probably taking it too far, maybe because these encounters were usually tinged with fear….(It is, after all, illegal, and then there is the scary fact that prostitutes are often victims of violence…) Nevertheless-- sometimes it was with a guy I might well have fucked for free.

When you’re a full-fledged pro, that is not going to be the case very often.

I will admit to considering the positive effects of fear on such a transaction a few times, when it was clearly offered. Then I learned to enjoy taking it to the next level to where she gets confused and starts to want to know me more before confusing herself with pay-for-sex or a momentary loss of control based upon my hottness/richness/trustworthyness, etc. Ah, the art of "upselling" from the customer perspective.

Getting them to the next stage where they really wonder if they COULD have a relationship with you throws another level of excitement into the game.
:P

easy_e
07-12-2006, 05:50 PM
See, there's the thing. If it is a guy I really want, I probably WOULD fuck him for free (if he wanted me, before easy_e brings THAT up again).
I only brought it up once, more for the novelty of a customer rejecting a stripper than to twist a knife in your heart (that was an unexpected bonus). As much as it pains me, I do have to give you credit for being honest enough to bring up this humiliating episode to begin with. Maybe someday Mr. Clean will return, sweep you off your feet and whisk you to a tropical paradise where he will slip a 10 carat diamond ring onto your dainty little finger under the starry night sky and you both will ride along the border of sand and sea on horseback, with the ocean spray shining in the moonlight, to live happily ever after. Or maybe you just wanted a good fuck. Either way, this is the last time I will refer to "the incident".

azcustomer
07-12-2006, 08:20 PM
Oh, I've drank plenty of the kool-aid and it is sweet indeed, but overpriced in my opinion. Sweeter still is moving beyond the platonic-friend customer bs and tasting everything on the menu.

You had it right earlier on with Mr. Punk.

Punk is his own animal - I suspect some day he'll be a convert.

easy_e
07-12-2006, 09:13 PM
Definition of an erg:
the unit of work or energy in the CGS system, equal to the work done by a force of one dyne acting through a distance of one centimeter. Equivalently, one erg is the kinetic energy of a mass of 2 grams moving at a velocity of 1 cm/sec. This is equal to 0.1 microjoule, or about 7.375 x 10-8 foot-pound. The name of the unit is from the Greek word ergon, work. There is no symbol; the word is spelled out in full. Adding prefixes is a problem: 1000 ergs is usually called a kiloerg, but one million ergs is a megalerg, the "l" being added to ease pronunciation.

Jenny
07-12-2006, 10:56 PM
Jenny you’re obsessed about finding coercion in each and every stripclub interaction. I don't deny that it sometimes exists, but in most of the Holy Grail reports I don't see it. If I accept your definition, every stripper who sells a service for cash is being bullied. Just because one party has the cash and the other party has the cookie doesn’t mean there is always intimidation. That’s the kind of thesis you’d only find in a fanatical Anarchist/Marxist/Maoist tract. In that case, I guess we should re-title this thread, “Stripclubs and Market/Social Hegemonies.” In a nutshell, you’re stretching the coercion argument/definition to its breaking point. I take it for granted (well in most cases, there are always exceptions) that most people offering or accepting Holy Grails do so of their own free will. They calculate the moral, economic, erotic, and personal costs and act accordingly. They’re not, in most cases, being tricked, forced, or otherwise manipulated into doing something totally against their will.

Or maybe I just need to be more jaded.
Okay - I get where you get this idea, but keep in mind that I don't think they are acting without free will, and this is not, strictly speaking, wholly my argument. It is my construction on OTHER people's arguments. It is not really meant to be an indictment of people's characters, so much as examining what it MEANS when one says that one is fishing for strippers, or in it for chase, or it gratifies your testosterone when you bag a stripper - particularly in the context of some things that have been posted in the past. As Jay points out - there is nobody out there validating the truth of these posts, and what is bravado and what is not. And I don't think that Nic's more benign interpretation is wholly inconsistent with my less benign one. Also, keep in mind that I don't mean coercion in the sense that I think anyone is holding a gun to the head of her poodle and saying "exchange fluid with me or Princess Fluffypants gets it". However, establishing that there are non convenience based reasons that men go to strippers for this purpose has meaning, because it generally means acknowledging at least the broad truth that, generally, strippers don't want to have sex with customers. Pretty much all non-punk reasoning stems from that assumed fact.


I only brought it up once, more for the novelty of a customer rejecting a stripper than to twist a knife in your heart (that was an unexpected bonus). As much as it pains me, I do have to give you credit for being honest enough to bring up this humiliating episode to begin with.
I did assume that you were being funny. And although I act cool for JZ's benefit, I can assure you that the knife is twisting quite painfully. Ow. Ow. The pain. The humiliation. Now, was it good for you?

mr_punk
07-13-2006, 06:29 AM
You know, Jenny, maybe I am giving the Junkies too much credit here, but I do see their motivations as considerably less nefarious than you do.well, you don't exactly see us as the evil, oppressive patriarchy.

I think it's not so much about "spotting the girl who fucks the customers" as "spotting the girl who will fuck me."frankly, as long as they're both hot and fucking. the "nasty skank" or the "temple virgin" works for me. however, you are correct. there are guys that need to believe he's dealing with the latter.

As a guy, you order up FS, the chick shows up at your hotel, you get FS. There's no...drama. (By that I don’t mean "stripper drama," but...human drama, y’know?) No suspense.not exactly, define human drama.

I don't know, I think that is kind of simplistic.
speaking of simple, i can't believe no one here has mentioned the simplest and oldest of reason.

Actually for me it's "She's going to be my soulmate for the next few hours!"for me it's like, "i'm going to fall deeply in lust....for the next two or three minutes.".

mr_punk
07-13-2006, 06:32 AM
If I interpret them correctly, these dalliances incorporated elements of impulse, whimsy, attraction, chemistry, no? Paying for it is fine, maybe even preferable (for me and I think many other junkies), but if at all possible I would still like these elements to be present, and these are precisely the elements which (I imagine) would NOT be present when contracting an escort.paradoxically, customers get tight around the collar when confronted with a blatant transaction about the very thing they want.

I am sure that CP, Mr.P and others would view the drawing of lines of demarcation along the sex worker continuum (i.e. full-time ho vs. stripper/occasional ho) as naive or just pointless, and maybe they would be correct, but that's where I am in my "evolution."leave the eyeball clawing to the strippers in the dressing room. you're a customer. there's no need caught up in their catfight. it is pointless for a customer. hopefully, you'll evolve from the need of a security blanket. if you're paying for services rendered. she's a sex worker. it doesn't matter what kind of sex worker, where she performed her services, the manner in which she performed her services, etc.

mr_punk
07-13-2006, 06:42 AM
I'm sorry, was there some confusion here?no. you cleared that up when you started talking about a "chaff-free" universe. that tells me you're pretty ignorant.

And, I'm only "talking out of my ass" if you discount any point of view that is not yours - I clearly have a legitimate and immediate interest in the topic.actually, i can discount your point of view. ironically, it's the very same reason why you ladies have to occasionally bitch slap customers back down to CC. And i don't disagree with the idea. however, to be equitable, while i did say that many people who work in your industry don't know shit from shinola. i didn't mean everyone. there are some strippers who do know what they're talking about. so far, you're not one of them. so, if you're going to come down here and discount any customer's opinion. you've got to do a lot more than just talk out of your ass.

However, establishing that there are non convenience based reasons that men go to strippers for this purpose has meaning, because it generally means acknowledging at least the broad truth that, generally, strippers don't want to have sex with customers. Pretty much all non-punk reasoning stems from that assumed fact.establishing? it ain't a court of law, red. so, despite your ignorance. you can discount any customer's opinion because....you don't act that way? is that it? if i didn't know any better, you sound a bit like one of those strippers wringing her hands about being stereotyped.

Jenny
07-13-2006, 07:19 AM
no. you cleared that up when you started talking about a "chaff-free" universe. that tells me you're pretty ignorant.
Oh please. All the flakiness/problems/issues you mentioned with escorts (except photoshop) still exist with dancers, in addition to having to FIND the girls that produce in the first place. When you first referenced wheat and chaff you were referring to the girls that "produce" - not girls that show up on time.


actually, i can discount your point of view. ironically, it's the very same reason why you ladies have to occasionally bitch slap customers back down to CC. And i don't disagree with the idea. however, to be equitable, while i did say that many people who work in your industry don't know shit from shinola. i didn't mean everyone. there are some strippers who do know what they're talking about. so far, you're not one of them. so, if you're going to come down here and discount any customer's opinion. you've got to do a lot more than just talk out of your ass.
Um, okay... I actually don't know where this leaves us. If you've sort of pre-discounted only MY point of view, what are we talking about here? You can't be imagining that I'm talking from any point of view but my own. I mean I discount all sorts of people's point of view, but I also don't take up pages dissecting them point by point. Because I've already discounted them. Oh well. I hear girls are more efficient, anyway. Further, I'm not discounting anyone's opinions. I'm challenging their construction of their behaviour.


]establishing? it ain't a court of law, red. so, despite your ignorance. you can discount any customer's opinion because....you don't act that way? is that it? if i didn't know any better, you sound a bit like one of those strippers wringing her hands about being stereotyped.
Well, fortunately you do know better. I'm not discounting customers opinions - although, ironically, you are. You are the only one who insists that there is convenience at work. Practically everyone else is all over Nicolina - whose reasoning differs from mine only marginally and in the construction. So far my reasoning is a lot closer to everyone else's than yours. So I don't see why you're twisting my arm to accept your ideas. And I don't see what a fear of stereotypes has to to with anything.

easy_e
07-13-2006, 08:30 AM
I did assume that you were being funny. And although I act cool for JZ's benefit, I can assure you that the knife is twisting quite painfully. Ow. Ow. The pain. The humiliation. Now, was it good for you?
No, now that you've confessed to your pain and humiliation it's no fun anymore. Just keep your chin up and try to maintain that facade of coolness. And if anyone asks about the tears, just tell them it's seasonal allergies. 8)

easy_e
07-13-2006, 08:44 AM
Further, I'm not discounting anyone's opinions. I'm challenging their construction of their behaviour.
Why Jenny, that almost sounded civilized and slightly intellectual. I'm impressed.

Nicolina
07-13-2006, 10:58 AM
Well, the nefariosity varies; I do read their reasonings in the context of other posts about how they treat SOs, women in general, their Trip Reports, and their attitudes towards women here. So for some the reasoning they espouse seems a little more genuine than others.

Most of them seem to keep mum about their relationships with their SO's. I figure a guy like C_P is probably pretty good at compartmentalizing. Just like I was.


Okay, I get what you are saying. Perhaps I am taking some of them a little too much at face value - many guys here act very jaded, and I believe that.

If you take them at face value—well, most of them are saying that my less-nefarious analysis is closer to the mark. I mean, who knows what’s really in their hearts? Some of them seem bitter and angry; others do not…Most of them are probably damaged and flawed in some way, because that’s how people are. I think the denial goes both ways—there is reason to deny emotional vulnerability, just as there is reason to deny callous disregard for the feelings of others.


I don't know, I think that is kind of simplistic. One of my former regulars had a standing offer for me, and what I always said was "No, thank you. But I'll call if I ever really, really need money." It didn't seem to ruin it for him in the slightest.

Sure, but that’s a completely different situation. He had already had a lot of interaction with you, and he lusted after you on the basis of that interaction. If you had one day called him to discuss terms and conditions, it might have been an ego-stroke for him to think that you had chosen to call him instead of some other customer who had a similar standing offer. He might even have been able to convince himself that you were calling because you secretly wanted to fuck him. I don’t know.

But if you tell me that in that particular case, you think he would’ve felt triumphant, pleased to have broken you down and excited by the prospect of making you do something that you didn’t really want to do, I will believe you. I am not denying that there are guys out there who would feel that way. Obviously, there are. I’m just saying that, as far as I can tell, most of the guys here don’t feel that way. And I don’t think it is the most common motivation in seeking such encounters. Maybe there is some element of that for many guys, but I think it takes a back seat to other feelings…


Also guys see escorts all the time, and presumably they have their own brand of Escort Shit, and can be every bit as charming and interesting and convincing as we can.

Of course. And I thought about mentioning that. But still…Even the most charming provider can only make you feel that she enjoys fucking you, that you’re her favorite customer, that you’re the only guy who can get her off, or whatever….No matter what she does, she can’t make you feel, during that first encounter, that she is willing to fuck you because she finds you so attractive that she made some sort of an exception to her normal code of behavior, just for you.


See, there's the thing. If it is a guy I really want, I probably WOULD fuck him for free (if he wanted me, before easy_e brings THAT up again).

Okay, well, since I’ve spilled my guts about that, I should probably clarify. My infrequent “extracurricular activities” occurred mostly during a two-year period way back when…and my willingness to engage in them had a lot to do with the fact that I was in a relationship with a sociopath who was fucking with my head a lot and encouraging me to do it. So, I was technically “in a relationship” at the time (albeit with a wanna-be pimp.) Without going into all the sordid details, the terms and conditions of that twisted relationship had a lot to do with my conduct. Plus, it occurred at that time in my “career” when I was ready to explore the boundaries in order to figure out what felt okay to me and what did not. (Prior to getting into that relationship, I’d had my way with a cute young guy or two who I’d met ITC, no cash exchange involved. Totally different story.)

Later on, there came a time after which OTC play-for-pay became, as the Alcoholics Anonymous people say, “no longer a viable option” for me. At that point, I decided that I didn’t want to have any OTC interaction with customers at all. Despite my protestations that male intentions in these interactions are fairly benign, I have always been rather paranoid when it comes to testing that hypothesis. I felt that my Wilderness Years were behind me, and that I’d tempted fate enough and was lucky to have emerged relatively unscathed (which is to say, only slightly scathed.) I might have reconsidered the strict compartmentalization policy if I’d met a guy I really wanted to date, but I never did.


I think I might have a more complicated relationship to the lapdance and the repulsivity of my customers than some other dancers (actually a couple of weeks ago I got into this conversation about the inherent narcissism of dancing, and how the "repulsive" guys (like the guys who repel you, not the guys who are physically unattractive) are the guys who just get in the way of that.

Hm. I’m not sure I follow. I’d ask for clarification, but then we’d probably have to start another breakaway thread…


Yeah, but there we go again.

Wait…there we go again with what? Did I say something that went back to your point?


Although I think it is sort of cute how you are kind of maternally clucking over these guys - like "They're just boys at heart." They don't generally sound that naive, out of it, or even easy to please.

Well, that’s not quite it. I don’t think they’re naïve, or clueless, or easy to please. I just think that, like most of us, they are driven primarily by ego, rather than by a desire to hurt or subjugate anyone. Like I said, I’m not denying that there are people who are driven by a desire to hurt others…But I think they are outside the norm—sociopaths, or otherwise severely psychologically damaged.

And as for being “just boys at heart,” I do think that most people are, at the core, self-centered, attention-seeking, emotionally vulnerable, ego-driven five-year-olds. They just adopt complex overlays, rationalizations, justifications, compensating behaviors, etc…Men, in particular, need to adopt all sorts of defenses to convince the world that they are not emotionally vulnerable. I think, in a lot of ways, it must be hard to be a guy…

Nicolina
07-13-2006, 11:38 AM
Eh..it's human nature

Not to get Aristotelian here, but pursuing and attaining what is perceived desirable is most likely motivated to validate the belief: I am just as desirable as the desired. The fact that strippers are more selective and are endlessly propositioned, may cause some customers to place them at a higher level, above escorts or for some, civilian women. I think the majority would agree that anything considered desirable on this earth requires overcoming some sort of challenge for: Money, Power, and Women



Exactly. Guys who are familiar with the SC scene know that most strippers do not regularly sleep with their customers. Therefore, a guy who knows the game is going to begin with the assumption that any given stripper is unattainable. If he subsequently manages to attain her, he will likely feel a sense of accomplishment in having "obtained the unobtainable." (Note that he could not feel that sense of accomplishment with an escort, who is, by definition, sexually attainable.)

As you say, Daniela: human nature.

(And can I tell you how much I enjoy your avatar? And your geekiness? ;))

gameover
07-13-2006, 02:05 PM
Exactly. Guys who are familiar with the SC scene know that most strippers do not regularly sleep with their customers.

I don't know, I'm personally not into the OTC thing, but I have been offered OTC activities numerous times (by hot dancers). So it may not be the majority, but it's not all that rare. Maybe the dancers who do it just don't talk about it to the other dancers.

Nicolina
07-13-2006, 02:17 PM
^Well, I believe that. But I still think it's safer to assume that the object of your SC desire isn't necessarily available for OTC action. My point was that the majority of dancers aren't regularlyturning tricks after work. Though it depends on the club, I guess....

(Maybe the girls were just making an exception for you. Cuz you're so hot. :P)

gameover
07-13-2006, 02:22 PM
^Well, I believe that. But I still think it's safer to assume that the object of your SC desire isn't necessarily available for OTC action. My point was that the majority of dancers aren't regularlyturning tricks after work. Though it depends on the club, I guess....

(Maybe the girls were just making an exception for you. Cuz you're so hot. :P)
If they thought that, they are nearsighted. :) And no, I don't think it is the majority. I do think it happens in most clubs though

azcustomer
07-13-2006, 02:23 PM
Exactly. Guys who are familiar with the SC scene know that most strippers do not regularly sleep with their customers. Therefore, a guy who knows the game is going to begin with the assumption that any given stripper is unattainable. If he subsequently manages to attain her, he will likely feel a sense of accomplishment in having "obtained the unobtainable." (Note that he could not feel that sense of accomplishment with an escort, who is, by definition, sexually attainable.)


The pleasure for some guys comes when he can feign ignorance when being 'chased' by the gals. It doesn't matter whether they are using SS, or trying to get OTC pay for play, or even taking it further. As for many of the strippers who enjoy teasing guys, the passive aggressive teasing for customers who frustrate the gals to no end is an endless supply of ego boost.

FBR
07-13-2006, 06:04 PM
I dont see what all the hubbub is about. It seems self evident to me. In my world, which I dont see as all that different from most of the rank and file clubbers, "attaining the unattainable" stripper for HG (to use Nicolinas phrase) is an accomplishment assuming the stripper doesnt have a menu complete with prices tattooed on her chest. Whether said accomplishment is as a result of a flurry of outstanding CS during one visit as opposed to a few weeks or months of lower level but persistent efforts is just a matter attention span, attraction to the dancer and just plain old sticktuitiveness. The end result is the same.

Escorts are a different animal. Ive watched a few entertainment shows on ESPN where a pro was able to sink basket after basket from the 3 point area. After a while, I was thinking "OK, now do something interesting".

FBR

Nicolina
07-13-2006, 07:38 PM
^Well said, FBR. And with so many fewer words than I used! Admirable brevity and concision. :)

FBR
07-13-2006, 08:28 PM
^Well said, FBR. And with so many fewer words than I used! Admirable brevity and concision. :)

Nic I learned brevity by riding on the short bus ;)

FBR

easy_e
07-13-2006, 10:56 PM
The pleasure for some guys comes when he can feign ignorance when being 'chased' by the gals. It doesn't matter whether they are using SS, or trying to get OTC pay for play, or even taking it further. As for many of the strippers who enjoy teasing guys, the passive aggressive teasing for customers who frustrate the gals to no end is an endless supply of ego boost.
This is a good point I have not seen mentioned before and very perceptive. The fantasy for a fairly average guy, meaning not possessing spectacular looks or a limitless source of cash, to be "pursued" by younger and quite beautiful females is a powerful ego boost indeed. What a feeling of empowerment to "turn down" a stunning dancer who would not give a second look in passing in RL and actually select one even more appealing. The fact is, at least in my part of the country, there simply aren't that many regulars in any given club that A) don't mind spending money and B) are not completely repulsive and disgusting. So there's a lot of competition among the dancers to get these guys to be their regulars or at least be their ATM for the night. Depending on their economic situation, some strippers will stop at nothing to steal such a customer away and will use every weapon in their arsenal (ITC, OTC, eyeball-scratching, etc.) to make it happen, both for the cash and bragging rights.
The illusion of being fought over by super-hot women is better for the male psyche than antidepressants or counseling could ever hope to be. Of course, as soon as a cooler dude with more money shows up that illusion is quickly shattered, but it's good while it lasts. All I need is 500-600 cash on me plus running a tab for drinks- that makes me king for the day, in comparison to the losers that think they're going to have a good time at a SC for forty bucks and consider a quarter a good tip for the waitress. Not sure if this is exactly what AZ was getting at, but at certain times it's been the driving force behind my SC adventures. Nothing like walking in the door of a club and being immediately surrounded by smokin' hot strippers clamoring for your attention while the beer nursers and cheap tippers look on in mystifyed awe, to make a guy feel like the Alpha Male. The slack-jawed grimace and bugged out eyes of a low spending custy who's been abandoned by his dream girl for greener (as in money) pastures is priceless too. My reasons are much different now, but that sure was fun, and it definitely improved my confidence with women in general.

Jenny
07-13-2006, 11:09 PM
If you take them at face value—well, most of them are saying that my less-nefarious analysis is closer to the mark.
Well, that is not so much taking them at face value, as simply accepting their construction of the situation. I mean, not for nothing hon, but of course they think you're closer to the mark - you see this as they want it to be seen. I don't mean that in a "so then it is without value and insight" because clearly it's not. I mean it's not without value - okay, nevermind - I clearly think your comments have value and insight. Stupid negatives.


But if you tell me that in that particular case, you think he would’ve felt triumphant, pleased to have broken you down and excited by the prospect of making you do something that you didn’t really want to do, I will believe you. I am not denying that there are guys out there who would feel that way. Obviously, there are. I’m just saying that, as far as I can tell, most of the guys here don’t feel that way. And I don’t think it is the most common motivation in seeking such encounters. Maybe there is some element of that for many guys, but I think it takes a back seat to other feelings…
Well, if we are going to start breaking things down by degree it would be hard to discern. I mean, I think even you used the word "conquest" and we use the word colloquially in a very innocent way. But when you think about it, why is a conquest important, even in non-paid sexual encounters? I mean, I don't think any of them are rapists - I don't think they get off on the idea of women weeping in the shower later on, crying "I feel so dirty, I feel so dirty" (on the other hand, I don't think some of them care much, one way or the the other). That's not what I mean. But to have a conquest at all - even in the most innocent and colloquial way that you are using, you have to have some resistance to overcome. I mean, that is what conquest means. Because this is, ultimately, a paid encounter - one which we must acknowledge on some level that money plays a deciding role, and that these guys really don't even seem to like these girls are people particularly (and they are not obliged to - that is not the point), it seems, to me, to reveal, a desire to exert dominance.


Of course. And I thought about mentioning that. But still…Even the most charming provider can only make you feel that she enjoys fucking you, that you’re her favorite customer, that you’re the only guy who can get her off, or whatever….No matter what she does, she can’t make you feel, during that first encounter, that she is willing to fuck you because she finds you so attractive that she made some sort of an exception to her normal code of behavior, just for you.
Again - I have difficulty crediting (some) of these guys with that kind of emotional naivete. Especially considering the rolling eyes that follow any such reported statement by a stripper. Try searching "I only do this with you" and see how many rolly eyes you get. I haven't actually done it - but I would expect several rolly eyes, or rolly eyes equivalents.

Here's a related, but off topic question (but really - considering - do we even care about topic?) Do you think, if a girl is making an exception to her usual normal code because she like a guy so much that there is a problem with the attitude some guys (let's not even say "these guys" because I don't want to point fingers; we are now talking about hypothetical guys far away from this board) have of treating her like she is a disposable kleenex? Like, if she is not just a pro, turning a trick, doesn't that make her a girl that really likes you? Like how would you even negotiate that without being an asshole?


Okay, well, since I’ve spilled my guts about that, I should probably clarify.
Oh my gosh, those were a lot of guts. I hope you didn't feel that I was trying to force you to justify yourself for past, present or future behaviour, and if I did, I'm really sorry. I mean, that wasn't what I intended, but if I did it, I feel really bad. Like, I was not sitting here judging you when I wrote that.


Hm. I’m not sure I follow. I’d ask for clarification, but then we’d probably have to start another breakaway thread…
It was kind of a sideways move. I can't even remember what made me think it was relevant. I sometimes think in weird, unexplainable tangents.


Wait…there we go again with what? Did I say something that went back to your point?
Geez. It just took me forever to find out what I was talking about. I think what I meant is that we are back to a similar position in which we both recognize that the point of bagging a dancer for pay for play rather than an escort is because it is a conquest, but we sort of diverge on the benign-ness (benignity? Someone help me with this) of the conquest. I think somewhere I misspoke, or spoke in terms strong enough to give the impression that I thought these guys were just dying to rape exotic dancers. That is not really what I mean. Again. Just to clarify.


Well, that’s not quite it. I don’t think they’re naïve, or clueless, or easy to please. I just think that, like most of us, they are driven primarily by ego, rather than by a desire to hurt or subjugate anyone. Like I said, I’m not denying that there are people who are driven by a desire to hurt others…But I think they are outside the norm—sociopaths, or otherwise severely psychologically damaged.
Aha! And I just figured it out. I'm not sure any of them want to hurt anyone (although, again, some posts regarding treatment of dancers have shown a great deal of callousness, and amusement at what hurt/damage she may have experienced); however, I'm not sure that gratifying their egos is entirely divorced from what we are calling "subjugation". Like, Jay mentioned earlier that he suspected some of the junkies who engaged wanted the girl to walk out having positive thoughts about the sex. Well, yeah, I would expect so. For her to think otherwise would be casting fairly serious aspersions on one's sexual prowess in one's own imagination. That would be weird. However, I don't see how one's ego is served by a conquest that doesn't involved a "subjugation" in some way, on some level. In fact, I don't see how you can have such a conquest - like I said, you require resistance. If the joy is in the conquest, it just seems obvious to me that the joy is in taking DOWN the resistance. Or maybe I'm missing something?


And as for being “just boys at heart,” I do think that most people are, at the core, self-centered, attention-seeking, emotionally vulnerable, ego-driven five-year-olds. They just adopt complex overlays, rationalizations, justifications, compensating behaviors, etc…Men, in particular, need to adopt all sorts of defenses to convince the world that they are not emotionally vulnerable. I think, in a lot of ways, it must be hard to be a guy…
I think, in many ways, it is VERY hard to be a guy. I'm not sure, however, if I'm willing to extend the whole "gosh, how do I choose between trying to bag a stripper for a pay for play, or just go to an escort" as one of those ways though.

azcustomer
07-13-2006, 11:37 PM
This is a good point I have not seen mentioned before and very perceptive. The fantasy for a fairly average guy, meaning not possessing spectacular looks or a limitless source of cash, to be "pursued" by younger and quite beautiful females is a powerful ego boost indeed. What a feeling of empowerment to "turn down" a stunning dancer who would not give a second look in passing in RL and actually select one even more appealing.
Close, but not quite what I was getting at. The thrill comes from being an 'average' guy who makes himself 'hot' purely by his attitude. The gals know he has money, but he'll never flash it or spend too much of it on one dancer.

It's not picking one dancer over another. It's showing you're able to enjoy ANY dancer and have her enjoy dancing for you. My absolute favorite time was with a dancer who was going through some real tough acne. I completely ignored it and focused on her eyes. The vibe we created throughout the club had every other dancer busy after two dances. After the third dance, I asked her to just sit on my knee and enjoy the vibe she created for everyone. The satisfaction I got by seeing the 180 degree turnaround in her attitude lasted 2 weeks.


So there's a lot of competition among the dancers to get these guys to be their regulars or at least be their ATM for the night. Depending on their economic situation, some strippers will stop at nothing to steal such a customer away and will use every weapon in their arsenal (ITC, OTC, eyeball-scratching, etc.) to make it happen, both for the cash and bragging rights.
The illusion of being fought over by super-hot women is better for the male psyche than antidepressants or counseling could ever hope to be. Of course, as soon as a cooler dude with more money shows up that illusion is quickly shattered, but it's good while it lasts. All I need is 500-600 cash on me plus running a tab for drinks- that makes me king for the day, in comparison to the losers that think they're going to have a good time at a SC for forty bucks and consider a quarter a good tip for the waitress.
Not quite - I actually love it when the gals realize my MO is to only buy two dances at a time, but devote my entire attention to making them feel like they are the hottest woman in the world. I love getting the 5-6 dancers come by for a 'pick me up'. They know I'll be polite and give a very unique comment on their beauty that they won't get anywhere else. Then I never go home with a gal who I think will talk about it. Nothing ruins a vibe like a woman who feels the need to boast about her exploits.

easy_e
07-14-2006, 12:22 AM
Close, but not quite what I was getting at. The thrill comes from being an 'average' guy who makes himself 'hot' purely by his attitude. The gals know he has money, but he'll never flash it or spend too much of it on one dancer..
The important part being they know he has money. Your point about self control is well taken though.

It's not picking one dancer over another. It's showing you're able to enjoy ANY dancer and have her enjoy dancing for you. My absolute favorite time was with a dancer who was going through some real tough acne. I completely ignored it and focused on her eyes. The vibe we created throughout the club had every other dancer busy after two dances. After the third dance, I asked her to just sit on my knee and enjoy the vibe she created for everyone. The satisfaction I got by seeing the 180 degree turnaround in her attitude lasted 2 weeks.
Hmmm... I don't know about that, in the SC I want something I think is unobtainable in RL. It is never-never land after all.

Not quite - I actually love it when the gals realize my MO is to only buy two dances at a time, but devote my entire attention to making them feel like they are the hottest woman in the world. I love getting the 5-6 dancers come by for a 'pick me up'. They know I'll be polite and give a very unique comment on their beauty that they won't get anywhere else. Then I never go home with a gal who I think will talk about it. Nothing ruins a vibe like a woman who feels the need to boast about her exploits.
That's all good, but I assure you they DO boast about their exploits in the dressing room if not the the club. I have spies in there, so I know. The compliment thing I agree with but usually not on a dancers obvious physical features, more along the lines of their personality, the way they carry themselves, pole tricks they do, a tattoo or article of clothing. Once I told a dancer that she had a radiant glow and a classy presence that brightened the whole room and made the club a better place just by being there. Never bought a dance from her but she'd give me a hug & kiss everytime we crossed paths. Seriously, I thank you for your elaboration and respect your approach to clubbing as it evidently works well for you.

mr_punk
07-14-2006, 05:38 AM
Oh please. All the flakiness/problems/issues you mentioned with escorts (except photoshop) still exist with dancers, in addition to having to FIND the girls that produce in the first place.i'm sorry, but were you recently donkey punched? did the resulting concussion cause you to incorrectly assume i thought otherwise? i just asking because there seems to be some confusion on your part. BTW, finding the girls in a whorehouse isn't that hard. that's why it's called...you know...a whorehouse.

When you first referenced wheat and chaff you were referring to the girls that "produce" - not girls that show up on time.i guess, men are more efficient than women. "produce" as in "producing results" as in "production" as in "the stripper who produces whatever the customer is looking for in an competent manner". yes, i know,competency is a dirty word in your business. anyway, i use it as a catch-all phrase. it's more efficient rather than getting bogged down in the specifics and catfighting about it like you ladies. the "fantasy" thread was a classic example.

Further, I'm not discounting anyone's opinions. I'm challenging their construction of their behaviour.challenging? oh, i think you'd like to do a lot more than challenge. "fix" would probably be more accurate of a word. you just can't let a man be a cigar-smoking, knuckle-dragging, objectifying, politically incorrect, poon-hound even in a sc, can you?

I'm not discounting customers opinions - although, ironically, you are.no, it's just you. after all, you are the active stripper.

You are the only one who insists that there is convenience at work.miss-i-know-everything-about-the-industry-since-i-work-in-it, still hasn't worked that part out yet? i guess you've never heard of the phrase "plan B"?

Practically everyone else is all over Nicolina - whose reasoning differs from mine only marginally and in the construction.i don't know about that. they seem to agree with Nic more than you. why? i have no idea. perhaps, it is a case of her femininely charm vs the charm of a rabid pitbull. in any case, i do disagree with Nic on some points. however, i can't totally discount her. after all, she's retired from stripping. however, if she were to strap on a g-string again.....all bets are off.

So I don't see why you're twisting my arm to accept your ideas.twisting your arm would be a crass and terrifying display of my awesome, male physical prowness. however, i can barely breathe on my own. so, i'm not unplugging myself from the respirator just to prove a point to you. seriously, you don't have to accept anything nor am i discounting your opinion. i'm just saying that you're ignorant about some things in this instance. don't get me wrong, there is no shame. i wouldn't expect you to know. i don't know, claim to and don't want to know everything about your side. i'd rather eat and enjoy a hotdog rather than know how they are made.

mr_punk
07-14-2006, 05:52 AM
Well, I believe that. But I still think it's safer to assume that the object of your SC desire isn't necessarily available for OTC action.sure, if you like chasing bad pitches outside of the strike zone. for me, it's about swinging at the pitch in the strike zone. instead of showing some disipline at the plate. a lot of customers swing for the fences every at-bat and end up striking out.

My point was that the majority of dancers aren't regularly turning tricks after work. Though it depends on the club, I guess....i'm not even going to speculate about numbers. i just go to sc where i know a percentage of the strippers turn all kinds of tricks.

Casual Observer
07-14-2006, 10:52 AM
Not to get Aristotelian here, but pursuing and attaining what is perceived desirable is most likely motivated to validate the belief: I am just as desirable as the desired. The fact that strippers are more selective and are endlessly propositioned, may cause some customers to place them at a higher level, above escorts or for some, civilian women. I think the majority would agree that anything considered desirable on this earth requires overcoming some sort of challenge for: Money, Power, and Women

Setting aside the customer service difference between approaching pay-for-play dancers and escorts, this sounds pretty accurate and insightful to me more broadly.

mr_punk
07-15-2006, 05:58 AM
Well, that is not so much taking them at face value, as simply accepting their construction of the situation. I mean, not for nothing hon, but of course they think you're closer to the mark - you see this as they want it to be seen.the differerence between you two is like the difference between The Godfather and Goodfellas. one has this romanticized vision. the other has this gritty and viseral vision.

Jenny
07-15-2006, 07:26 AM
Which one am I?

Nicolina
07-15-2006, 09:43 AM
^Yeah, I'm not sure either.

/:O

Richard_Head
07-15-2006, 10:07 AM
My guess is that Nic is Godfather and Jenny is Goodfellas? Wait that's not right, Jenny is Godfather, Nic is Goodfellas? I don't know. I loved both those movies though.

Docido
07-15-2006, 10:15 AM
Well, that is not so much taking them at face value, as simply accepting their construction of the situation.

Two observations: Jenny doesn't like our analogies. I can see why a dancer might not take too kindly to being seen as prey (The Hunter/Hunted) or a Big Slurpy (The Convenience Store).

Stop reading the French. It will only make you crazy. I know, rich advice coming from someone pretentious enough to quote the Situationists on a strip club board. :P

Nicolina
07-15-2006, 10:23 AM
^LOL, RH...Me too. Though, Ray Liotta kinda creeps me out. (...for personal reasons.)

For mob-related entertainment, though, nothing beats the first season of The Sopranos. That's more what I'm going for here. ;)

I'm guessing I have the romanticized vision, since I tend to deny that the guys have cruel intentions or malicious motivations...? And I guess that makes sense, since I'm not dancing anymore and it's easier to romanticize something from a distance....

Still, it's disconcerting. I think of myself as a realist, not a romantic.

Jenny
07-15-2006, 11:55 AM
Two observations: Jenny doesn't like our analogies. I can see why a dancer might not take too kindly to being seen as prey (The Hunter/Hunted) or a Big Slurpy (The Convenience Store).

Stop reading the French. It will only make you crazy. I know, rich advice coming from someone pretentious enough to quote the Situationists on a strip club board. :P
That really does likely have something to do with it. Although, again, I think it is at least a little bit telling when those are analogies that guys go for. And are you telling moi to stop reading the French? Or is that for someone else? If it is for me - shut up. Helene Cixous is Queen!


I'm guessing I have the romanticized vision, since I tend to deny that the guys have cruel intentions or malicious motivations...? And I guess that makes sense, since I'm not dancing anymore and it's easier to romanticize something from a distance....
I think both ways could make sense. Like you could argue that I am romanticizing the dancer position (and really, let's think about mr._punk for a second. To him, acknowledging that dancers have heads is a little romantic).

Docido
07-15-2006, 12:27 PM
Jenny told me to shut up. :blush:

Cixous sounds interesting. Would I cheapen it by saying she's also a hottie? ;D