View Full Version : Polite Musings on the Grail Search
mr_punk
07-16-2006, 06:50 AM
Which one am I?Goodfellas. incidentially, Scorsese is my favorite film director.
Yeah, I'm not sure either.The Godfather.
My guess is that Nic is Godfather and Jenny is Goodfellas? Wait that's not right, Jenny is Godfather, Nic is Goodfellas? I don't know.LOL...perhaps, it would have been less confusing if i used the movies, "Whore" and "Pretty Woman", but since we're talking about the male POV. it didn't quite fit.
I'm guessing I have the romanticized vision, since I tend to deny that the guys have cruel intentions or malicious motivations...?well, it's not that you deny those things nor do i necessarily disagree (or necessarily agree with jenny) with you about this conquering thing. i'm just saying you make the skirt chasers motivations sound romantic.
and really, let's think about mr._punk for a second. To him, acknowledging that dancers have heads is a little romantic.oh, come on. if a stripper has a very nice rack. what's wrong with a guy staring and talking to her boobs at the same time?
Jenny
07-16-2006, 04:34 PM
Jenny told me to shut up. :blush:
Cixous sounds interesting. Would I cheapen it by saying she's also a hottie? ;D
Isn't there a rule about calling feminists hot? Even if they are french feminists?
Well, just for you:
http://lgbcom.web.arizona.edu/img/moniquew4lgbt.gif (wittig)
http://www.marquette.edu/wstudies/kristeva.jpg (kristeva)
Now you are wicked turned on, aren'cha?
evan_essence
07-20-2006, 12:27 PM
frankly, as long as they're both hot and fucking. the "nasty skank" or the "temple virgin" works for me. however, you are correct. there are guys that need to believe he's dealing with the latter.Now you know why we keep sayin' it's a fantasy for the vast majority. The guy who believes a stripper chose to fuck him for pay because there was personal chemistry is engaging in major fantasy. There's not a guy in this forum who believes that a stripper is lapdancing or sitting with him because she's actually romantically attracted to him. Only those who know it's not true but conciously choose to suspend disbelief for their own enjoyment are spared from being labeled total PLs here. Yet I hypothesize that most guys here (Mr_P being an exception) who get laid by a stripper are under a PL's delusion, not a willing suspension of disbelief, about the stripper's motive for fucking him.
In fact, the goal of "achieving the Holy Grail" is the source of many ivory tower proclamations here about non-seekers being PL. What's up with this whole "Holy Grail" label anyway? Not just the label, but the mentality behind the label. You guys have demystified all other forms of stripper shit, so if you're not PL, you should stop elevating stripper pussy to the level of Christ's bloodline.
-Ev
Mastridonicus
07-20-2006, 12:55 PM
Not just the label, but the mentality behind the label. You guys have demystified all other forms of stripper shit, so if you're not PL, you should stop elevating stripper pussy to the level of Christ's bloodline.
-Ev
And suddenly, it's no longer the stripper, it's the person in question who decides whether or not this is really a medal of honor.
Ev. The great equalizer.
dayzed
07-20-2006, 03:22 PM
What's up with this whole "Holy Grail" label anyway? Not just the label, but the mentality behind the label... you should stop elevating stripper pussy to the level of Christ's bloodline. I always assumed that "HG" is meant not to characterize stripper pussy vis-a-vis other categories of pussy as much as the act of sex vis-a-vis the other less exciting activities that customers normally expect from the SC experience.
I think the terminology reflects the typical male compulsion to couch everything in the terms of competition and achievement (particularly where sex is concerned) rather than any special regard for stripper pussy.
Also, maybe I misread the author's intent, but I see a touch of self-deprecation (derived from the irony inherent in the use an overtly grandiose phrase). I don't *think* anyone is in denial about the base reality that we're ultimately discussing here.
GenWar
07-20-2006, 06:17 PM
What's up with this whole "Holy Grail" label anyway? Not just the label, but the mentality behind the label. You guys have demystified all other forms of stripper shit, so if you're not PL, you should stop elevating stripper pussy to the level of Christ's bloodline.
-Ev
If I may hijack for a moment, and, as good as this point is, I must protest. Dan Brown notwithstanding, *I* see "Holy Grail" and I am thinking more along the lines of Sir Lancelot/Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade sense. You know, the Big Guy's drinking vessel.
Sorry, but this DaVinci Code crap is really starting to grate on my nerves...
-gen
P.S. And may I obsequiously say again, it is a DAMN fine point.
Jenny
07-20-2006, 07:39 PM
Gosh Evan. You're pretty. I would love to, just once, meet you so that I could look at you sideways while you were drinking coffee and then blush and avert my eyes when you caught me looking.
Sorry. Just had to suck up for a second.
mr_punk
07-21-2006, 08:29 AM
Now you know why we keep sayin' it's a fantasy for the vast majority. The guy who believes a stripper chose to fuck him for pay because there was personal chemistry is engaging in major fantasy.i already know why you keep saying it's a "fantasy". but hey, if you want to argue over the word "fantasy" for the umpteenth time. once again, you can count me out.
There's not a guy in this forum who believes that a stripper is lapdancing or sitting with him because she's actually romantically attracted to him. Only those who know it's not true but conciously choose to suspend disbelief for their own enjoyment are spared from being labeled total PLs here.now, you know why customers argued with you strippers over the word "fantasy". there's a big difference between what's happening here and in the first quote above. they're not the same thing. yet, at the time, you ladies insisted on calling them both "fantasy".
Yet I hypothesize that most guys here (Mr_P being an exception) who get laid by a stripper are under a PL's delusion, not a willing suspension of disbelief, about the stripper's motive for fucking him.sigh...oh great, another EE hypothesis. why can you just look vacuously pretty and say "duh" like a normal stripper? seriously, i'm the only exception? let's see, the only regular SCJ posters who openly admit to getting nasty with strippers, besides myself, are aggieed, CP, yoda, MW, FBR and Sporty. so, when you say "most guys here who get laid by a stripper". you think all of them fit into the category you outlined? if so, that's a bit of a stretch even for you, evan.
In fact, the goal of "achieving the Holy Grail" is the source of many ivory tower proclamations here about non-seekers being PL.fact or just another hypothesis?
evan_essence
07-21-2006, 08:31 AM
Sorry. Just had to suck up for a second.Sweetie, you can suck up as much as you want. What was I even arguing about? Hell, never mind. Do you have a webcam?
-Ev
mr_punk
07-21-2006, 08:43 AM
I always assumed that "HG" is meant not to characterize stripper pussy vis-a-vis other categories of pussy as much as the act of sex vis-a-vis the other less exciting activities that customers normally expect from the SC experience.assuming the option to get nasty either ITC or OTC is available. i would also add there is a difference between ITC sex and OTC sex. in the former, one is somewhat limited by environment. for instance, a customer can't walk into a sc with a screwdriver and remove a mirror from the wall. walk back to the LD area with the mirror and set it, at just the right angle, on the floor against the wall. so, he watch the stripper bounce up and down like a hyperactive pogo stick in the RCG. so, you can see why an individual may favor one environment over the other, despite the fact that both options may be available.
I think the terminology reflects the typical male compulsion to couch everything in the terms of competition and achievement (particularly where sex is concerned) rather than any special regard for stripper pussy.IOW, it's a guy thing. but hey, we are talking about sc. a place where customers swing for the fences at bad pitches and consistently strike out at the plate.
Also, maybe I misread the author's intent, but I see a touch of self-deprecation (derived from the irony inherent in the use an overtly grandiose phrase). I don't *think* anyone is in denial about the base reality that we're ultimately discussing here.sure. i don't think anyone is trying to give the impression that they're so handsome, charming and irresistable that strippers have no other choice, but to drop their g-strings. i think what everyone is overlooking is something that CP said earlier. to paraphrase: don't swing at bad pitches. it's what separates the great hitters from the average hitters. customers who consistently swing for the fences will consistently strike out at the plate. OTOH, if you show some disipline at the plate, work the count and wait for the pitch in your zone. way more often than not, you'll put the ball in play.
easy_e
07-21-2006, 09:39 AM
In fact, the goal of "achieving the Holy Grail" is the source of many ivory tower proclamations here about non-seekers being PL. What's up with this whole "Holy Grail" label anyway? Not just the label, but the mentality behind the label. You guys have demystified all other forms of stripper shit, so if you're not PL, you should stop elevating stripper pussy to the level of Christ's bloodline.
-Ev
First, if it wasn't for PL's, strip clubs would be out of business. Second, some (not all) stripper pussy is pretty damn good, IMO so why not call it the "Holy Grail"? It's actually kind of flattering and respectful, in some perverse way. Guess I could call it "the highlight of my day" but Holy Grail has a nice ring to it.
Jenny
07-21-2006, 01:14 PM
Gosh, I understood something totally different from her post. I thought that she was expanding on Nicolina's hypothosis (which got her a tongue bath her, I might add, so you guys are stuck with it) that guys who strongly identify as the anti-PL, or at least as highly aware of their engagement with PLdom throw it all out the window over the proverbial holy grail (and me, I always thought of Monty Python). The delusion/illusion that the stripper "really likes you" enough to have sex with you as opposed to the other customers, blah, blah, blah, you're so special and handsome, blah, blah, blah. In fact she was saying that you are copping to engaging in the bahaviour that about half of you regard with derision - and, coincidentally it is, in fact, the same half. Stripper pussy. The great equalizer. You are not ALL PLs.
Easy - we love the PL - as long as he is isn't crazy or smells bad. Then we will take his money, but we will think bad thoughts. Seriously - you are not going to try to tell me that strippers are better sexual partners than your average woman. I know for damn sure that is not so. I think she is impugning the accuracy and PLishness of the label than claiming it is disrespectful.
easy_e
07-21-2006, 07:16 PM
^^^^^^^
I agree with what you and Nicolina said, I just like to play the Devil's Advocate sometimes. I'm not claiming that strippers are any better in bed than the general female population, most are worse, but some aren't too bad. I guess where I'm at is that if you take away the "Holy Grail", demystify the SS and remove extras-seekers and PL's from the equation, what's left? After all, if stripper pussy ain't that great then how is it a big thrill to have one grind in your lap? Hence I don't go much anymore.
Jenny
07-21-2006, 07:48 PM
Well, just because we are not better in bed doesn't mean we don't do a superlative grind. Anyway, isn't there a general acknowledgement that stripping is a low skill job? I mean I don't think there is ANYONE who thinks that a lapdance is this incredibly wicked hard thing to learn. Most guys just want me to keep grinding at a steady pace. As for why it's a thrill? I don't know. There are many threads of "why do you go REALLY?" to consult on that one.
Although (just aside, my little anecdote) last night a guy asked me out, and I said no. And he just kept asking. I asked him if I wasn't suitably firm the first time - he said he wasn't taking no for an answer. The next time he asked I said "Oh, you don't even really want to go home with me. I'm not even any good in bed - all enthusiasm with no restraint or skill. Trust me. You can do better."
mr_punk
07-21-2006, 08:51 PM
I thought that she was expanding on Nicolina's hypothosiswell, it certainly has the same flaw. nic's hypothosis only works if the guy is under some illusion that you ladies are girl scouts. yes, some customers need to believe it. however, as you noted earlier, other customers aren't that naive. they really don't give a crap either way just as long as the stripper is giving up the ass
easy_e
07-21-2006, 09:42 PM
Well, just because we are not better in bed doesn't mean we don't do a superlative grind.
All show and no go, like a 6 cylinder Mustang automatic. I'll take the V8.
I'm not even any good in bed - all enthusiasm with no restraint or skill. Trust me. You can do better.
IMO enthusiasm more than makes up for skill, and restraint is completely unnecessary.
Jenny
07-21-2006, 11:15 PM
You know, that's exactly what he said (well, he also said that he could teach me) but we all know that if I had actually slept with him he'd totally be on stripclubjunkie the next day saying "You know, stripper pussy is completely over-rated."
mr_punk
07-22-2006, 12:36 AM
You know, that's exactly what he said (well, he also said that he could teach me) but we all know that if I had actually slept with him he'd totally be on stripclubjunkie the next day saying "You know, stripper pussy is completely over-rated."i should hope so. i look for skill in a sex worker. at the end of the day, i want to be hyperventilating, slightly dizzy and can barely move (because i'm so throughly dehydrated) a muscle.
Jenny
07-22-2006, 12:51 AM
Well if it makes you feel better a) I did say no and b) I think he was hoping I'd do it free. Although he really thought that your description would apply a lot more to me. He told me I would be unable to walk the next day and that he would "break" me. But really, walking is kind of a big part of my life. I don't know if I really want to be LAMED by sex. Call me pedestrian (hee. Puns are funny.).
mr_punk
07-22-2006, 01:24 AM
Although he really thought that your description would apply a lot more to me.i can see why. you seem to have have like zero cock awareness. but hey, some guys prefer seeming innocence over skill.
He told me I would be unable to walk the next day and that he would "break" me.i usually tell women the opposite. i tell them one night with me will be the experience of a lifetime. granted, a pretty bad experience, but one so terrifying that it will all uphill afterwards because it can't get any worse.
Jenny
07-22-2006, 03:03 AM
^^^
Yeah, well, my cock awareness class at the learning annex was rescheduled for August. So, it will just have to wait.
Good pitch, btw.
I paid an assload of money to join a very nice country club so I could be sucked up to by the club manager. waitstaff and the club pro. My payment of the exhorbitent entry fee and the monthly dues assures that I get that treatment. I like it and am willing to pay for it.
No different vis a vis stripper holy grail. You find the gal who is willing to play your game for a price. You can either keep it down low or dress it up with fantasy but at the end of the day nothing will likely happen unless money changes hands. I happen to like to dress it up, Miss D being a case in point. But dont think for a minute that I dont understand that its pay for play. And Im sure the same applies to many of the guys here.
FBR
Nicolina
07-22-2006, 10:25 AM
well, it certainly has the same flaw. nic's hypothosis only works if the guy is under some illusion that you ladies are girl scouts.
I dunno. I feel like there's probably some middle ground between "girl scout/temple virgin" and "chick who is so promiscuous that she'll fuck anyone who pays her a little attention...or so whorish that she'll give it up for any guy with twenty dollars and a dream..."
I mean, even if you're not a blushing virgin, you can still have standards, right? You might still want to pick and choose your partners (whether they're paying for the privilege or not.) Right?
The illusion is not that some innocent little thing is being thoroughly corrupted and suddenly becoming your whore for the evening (though I'm sure that would appeal to some...Hi, Sporty :wave: :P).
The illusion is that some reasonably choosy, highly desirable female who gets a lot of requests for sex from other men has decided that you are, for whatever reason, a more worthy mate--for the evening, at least. You win the competition against other guys--which, I daresay, might be a more powerful motivation than any desire to "break down" a girl's defenses.
Maybe winning the competition against other males is what gives you the real rush, as opposed to feeling that you have overpowered a female and convinced her to submit to your will.
Whaddya think?
evan_essence
07-22-2006, 10:28 AM
You can either keep it down low or dress it up with fantasy but at the end of the day nothing will likely happen unless money changes hands. I happen to like to dress it up, Miss D being a case in point. But dont think for a minute that I dont understand that its pay for play. And Im sure the same applies to many of the guys here.Oh, I know you understand it's pay for play. As you observe, if there's no money, there'd be no play. All but the most delusional of you understand that part of the equation.
I'm saying, correlated with what Nic pointed out, that some corner of the PL mind also believes that the Holy Grailette specifically chooses to play for pay with that particular customer because of his unique personal traits other than ability to pay or some basic safety judgement like he doesn't seem like a serial killer. The PL seems to need to believe that, simultaneous to desiring the money, she desires some amount of personal sexual gratification that he alone can bring her, does he not? Otherwise, filing reports about achieving Stripper Holy Grail would carry no more weight than achieving Escort Holy Grail (if it were even thought of as HG). An escort is seen as professionally faking it; a stripper, in the PL's mind, must really be into this. Derek tried to brag about his escort quests as though they were Holy Grail and got laughed out of the forum.
-Ev
All Good Things
07-22-2006, 10:41 AM
Seriously - you are not going to try to tell me that strippers are better sexual partners than your average woman. I know for damn sure that is not so.
It sure as hell is so. It's so not a contest. I don't even know where to begin.
(Except suddenly the linguistic master buried deep in my brain has noticed that I've picked up some age-defined demographically suspect slang, so please forgive that. For the moment.)
Look, I married a normal. That didn't exactly work out. Not her fault, really, since I'm a total freak myself. Obsessive, intense, inflamed, crazy. Found that dancers really fueled all of that in me -- drove it, encouraged it, reveled in it, was happy to go with it, wherever it took us. I fell back on a bachelorhood where I knew all of this instinctively already, had the experience with the dancers for years, and lived it. As a woman much wiser than me asks over and over, "why in the hell do you guys marry women like that?"
So now I find myself in this thing with Nicolina. I mean, seriously. This is not even a contest. You do the math.
Nicolina
07-22-2006, 10:56 AM
At risk of beating a dead horse beyond recognition.....
I mean, not for nothing hon, but of course they think you're closer to the mark - you see this as they want it to be seen.
I’m not 100% sure about that. I’ve been phrasing my interpretation carefully so as not to freak them out, but basically I’m saying that they are buying into the ultimate PL’s fantasy of “she’s doing this because she really likes me” or “lusts after me” or “can’t control herself” around me because [i]I’m so irresistible.
Which is, in most cases, total bunk. She’s doing it because she’s late with the rent, or because her abusive loser boyfriend needs to get bailed out of jail, or because her kid was sick and she couldn’t get to work for two weeks, or because she’s got her own issues and problems with sexuality and boundaries and self-control….
These motivations are probably more common among strippers who do occasional OTC, because if they felt fine about turning tricks, as some women do, they’d probably go ahead and work for an escort service. Among other things, it would be smarter and safer than impulsively agreeing to accompany a guy whose name you don’t even know to a hotel room without telling anyone where you’ll be. (Note one poster’s complaints about the personal information one is required to give before seeing an escort.)
But I think most of the guys here would rather believe that her motivations have more to do with his personal charm than with her locked-up loser boyfriend.
Well, if we are going to start breaking things down by degree it would be hard to discern. I mean, I think even you used the word "conquest" and we use the word colloquially in a very innocent way. But when you think about it, why is a conquest important, even in non-paid sexual encounters? ….
…to have a conquest at all - even in the most innocent and colloquial way that you are using, you have to have some resistance to overcome. I mean, that is what conquest means.
I don’t think I used the word “conquest” in this thread, though I was tempted a few times, because I knew it would provide fodder for exactly this question. :P
However, you’re right, there’s very often an element of conquest, for males, in sexual encounters with females. I know you don’t care for this argument, but I would say that it has something to do with the fact that our mating system involves cheap sperm, expensive eggs, long gestation periods, and “choosy females.”
In general, females are not the pursuers/initiators in sexual encounters among primates. Males are. For reasons that make evolutionary sense, females are more resistant and more choosy in such encounters. Hence, the male “need” to “overcome resistance” and the pleasure at feeling “chosen.”
I’d be curious to know, actually, if gay men think of their encounters with other men as conquests. I mean, is it part of the male psyche, or does it have more to do with overcoming choosy-female resistance? Hm….
I mean, I don't think any of them are rapists - I don't think they get off on the idea of women weeping in the shower later on, crying "I feel so dirty, I feel so dirty" (on the other hand, I don't think some of them care much, one way or the the other).
I agree. I think some of them wouldn’t care. Others, though, I think, would absolutely refuse to sleep with a girl if they knew she would do that afterward. It would totally ruin the experience for them. In fact, one poster (I think it was azcustomer) recently wrote that he refused to sleep with a dancer he saw OTC because he got the feeling that it would somehow fuck with her head.
It runs the gamut, is all I’m saying…
Because this is, ultimately, a paid encounter - one which we must acknowledge on some level that money plays a deciding role, and that these guys really don't even seem to like these girls are people particularly (and they are not obliged to - that is not the point), it seems, to me, to reveal, a desire to exert dominance.
(I think there’s a typo in there: I’m reading it as “don’t even seem to like these girls as people” rather than “don’t even seem to think these girls are people”)
As we know, I don’t have any problem with males who have a desire to exert dominance. ::) And honestly, that might have something to do with the fact that I feel a bit friendlier toward some of these guys than you do….
Again - I have difficulty crediting (some) of these guys with that kind of emotional naivete. Especially considering the rolling eyes that follow any such reported statement by a stripper. Try searching "I only do this with you" and see how many rolly eyes you get. I haven't actually done it - but I would expect several rolly eyes, or rolly eyes equivalents.
True about the rolly eyes…but still. That’s required so that the other guys don’t make fun of them. If you read between the lines, you often find phrases that are intended to show that, in fact, the girl does not do “this”—whatever “this” might be (and it isn’t always sexual)—with everyone. At least, I think I find that when I read between the lines.
Despite the rolly eyes, don’t you think it’s possible that there is some secret little part of them that wants to believe it is true?
I wouldn’t characterize this as “crediting them with emotional naivete” so much as acknowledging the fact that humans, being the social animals we are, are powerfully driven by the urge to be liked, respected, and sexually desired by our “conspecifics” (i.e.,fellow humans). (Sorry, I just get off on using science journal jargon to describe stripclub dynamics. :) )
Here's a related, but off topic question (but really - considering - do we even care about topic?)
No, we certainly don’t.
Do you think, if a girl is making an exception to her usual normal code because she like a guy so much that there is a problem with the attitude some guys (let's not even say "these guys" because I don't want to point fingers; we are now talking about hypothetical guys far away from this board) have of treating her like she is a disposable kleenex? Like, if she is not just a pro, turning a trick, doesn't that make her a girl that really likes you? Like how would you even negotiate that without being an asshole?
That’s a really good question. But I think it’s more about lust than “like” or “love”… azc kept mentioning a girl “losing control…” or at least giving that illusion.
Some of the guys want emotion, but most are looking for the equivalent of a really hot one-night stand. I think that both males and females are capable of using another person as sort of a masturbatory aid, which is what I think most one-night stands really are. It can still be seen as sort of flattering if someone wants to use you as a masturbatory aid…
And the guys who want emotion often seem to have ongoing “things” with their OTC girls.
Also, the exchange of money invariably establishes a particular groundwork, and erects boundaries that are not easily breached once in place. The guys know on some level that if the girl really “really liked them,” as in, she was interested in exploring the possibility of a real relationship with them, she would refuse to accept any money. Money just wouldn’t be an issue. She’d give off totally different signals, and she’d agree to a dinner date, not an all-night sex-for-cash session.
Once a girl fucks you for money, even if she’s fond of you, she will forever see you as a “customer.” I think it’s virtually impossible to make the leap from “trick” to “boyfriend.” Everyone involved in the exchange ultimately knows this. (Which is why “Pretty Woman” was patently ridiculous, mr_p. Even a “romantic” like me knows that :P Actually, “True Romance” was a much better (and much grittier) fairy tale….)
Oh my gosh, those were a lot of guts. I hope you didn't feel that I was trying to force you to justify yourself for past, present or future behaviour, and if I did, I'm really sorry. I mean, that wasn't what I intended, but if I did it, I feel really bad. Like, I was not sitting here judging you when I wrote that.
Nah, don’t worry, Jenny. I didn’t feel judged at all. I just wanted to clarify, for my own reasons...
I'm not sure that gratifying their egos is entirely divorced from what we are calling "subjugation"….I don't see how one's ego is served by a conquest that doesn't involve a "subjugation" in some way, on some level….I don't see how you can have such a conquest - like I said, you require resistance. If the joy is in the conquest, it just seems obvious to me that the joy is in taking DOWN the resistance. Or maybe I'm missing something?
Well, I think this goes back to the biology argument, to some extent. Also, there is more than one way to take down resistance, right? Like, you can take it down with some semblance of force, and get off on the fact that you forced someone to do something they didn’t want to do. Or, you can overcome resistance with charm, and get off on the fact that the power of your charm made someone want to do something that they didn’t initially want to do.
Or, you can overcome resistance with money, and not care one way or the other about the feelings of the other person.
The guys here seem to employ the latter two tactics in their efforts to procure stripper pussy.
I think, in many ways, it is VERY hard to be a guy. I'm not sure, however, if I'm willing to extend the whole "gosh, how do I choose between trying to bag a stripper for a pay for play, or just go to an escort" as one of those ways though.
;D
Fair enough, Jenny! (And I’m sure you know that wasn’t really what I was suggesting…)
LapOfLuxury
07-22-2006, 11:00 AM
I'm saying, correlated with what Nic pointed out, that some corner of the PL mind also believes that the Holy Grailette specifically chooses to play for pay with that particular customer because of his unique personal traits other than ability to pay or some basic safety judgement like he doesn't seem like a serial killer.
Sometimes the PL has good reason to believe this.
The PL seems to need to believe that, simultaneous to desiring the money, she desires some amount of personal sexual gratification that he alone can bring her, does he not?
Nope, not necessarily. Perhaps he merely believes she finds him more palatable than most other customers.
It's tough to believe she actually desires you when you're paying for it.
Otherwise, filing reports about achieving Stripper Holy Grail would carry no more weight than achieving Escort Holy Grail (if it were even thought of as HG). An escort is seen as professionally faking it; a stripper, in the PL's mind, must really be into this. Derek tried to brag about his escort quests as though they were Holy Grail and got laughed out of the forum.
I thought Derek talked mostly about sessions with strippers that he'd met at clubs.
I don't think of a paid-for OTC session with a dancer as the Holy Grail (though I'm PL enough that I can find it flattering). But I'm not one to BOAST about paid-for physical intimacy, as it doesn't seem all that boast-worthy.
mr_punk
07-22-2006, 11:04 AM
I dunno. I feel like there's probably some middle ground between "girl scout/temple virgin" and "chick who is so promiscuous that she'll fuck anyone who pays her a little attention...or so whorish that she'll give it up for any guy with twenty dollars and a dream..."well, i'm not disputing some middle ground, Nic. my point is that some guys really don't have need to have any kind of illusion about the stripper. one of the most basic idea you seem to overlook is what a sc offers....a large variety of women. men (some more than others) have an insatiable appetite for variety. some customers will shackle themselves to one stripper. however, i'm not talking about that kind of customer. the kind of customer i'm talking about doesn't care how many men you fuck or don't fuck. he knows where you work. he know what some of the girls will do where you work. he just wants the booty. if it's not your ass, then it'll be some other stripper's ass. guys like this are like sharks. they never stop swimming and the sc is always full of fresh meat.
Jenny
07-22-2006, 11:09 AM
It sure as hell is so. It's so not a contest. I don't even know where to begin.
Now, baby - I've never even met her, but I strongly suspect that Nickie (can i call you Nickie?) is special. Not every, or even most dancers are "freaks" (and keep in mind that I do not subscribe to Sporty's theory that liking to get your hair pulled or being smacked on the ass makes one freakish. But still). I would say that probably roughly the same proportion are, as non-dancers. (I had female roommates and a sister, none of whom are dancers).
Ev...I think we are on friendly terms (I hope) otherwise I would be insulted that you mentioned me in the same post where you referred to Derek. Hes a fuckin retard. I'll just let that one go.
In spite of my bragging once in a while (for entertainment value) I really dont have that much stripper OTC experience compared to some of the other guys here. My Indy ATF back a few years ago, Miss B twice and currently Miss D. Thats about it. Ive never been shy about saying that I have feelings for Miss D and also havent been shy about saying that its retarded to feel that way. But if nothing else, I took her from barely being able to stand one orgasm to enjoying 4 or 5 in a row. Whoopie for me but that means something to me even though Im payng her (I thought Id throw that in to keep this post on topic). Someday her future SO will thank me LOL
FBR
Casual Observer
07-22-2006, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by Jenny
Seriously - you are not going to try to tell me that strippers are better sexual partners than your average woman. I know for damn sure that is not so.
Originally Posted by TOO
It sure as hell is so. It's so not a contest. I don't even know where to begin.
I have to agree with TOO here, based strictly on anecdotal experience--the experience of a, um, friend, of course. Ahem. ;)
Nicolina
07-22-2006, 11:30 AM
...This is not even a contest. You do the math.
Sweetheart, as much as this strokes my ego, you've got to agree that your sample size is rather small. (In fact, you can't really disagree, now can you? At least not without getting yourself into a little hot water...;))
All Good Things
07-22-2006, 11:51 AM
^ My sample size predates you, my most beautiful girl. But you have a way of defining the peak of my curve. ;)
We now return this thread to regular programming.
Jenny
07-22-2006, 12:00 PM
Thank you!
I’m not 100% sure about that. I’ve been phrasing my interpretation carefully so as not to freak them out,
Well, yeah, I did catch that. But it was also phrased carefully in a way as to be as non-inimical (uninimical?) and as flattering to them as possible.
But I think most of the guys here would rather believe that her motivations have more to do with his personal charm than with her locked-up loser boyfriend.
Hmm. I'm not sure. Reading the HG and TR posts I think you do run a bit of a gamut - and some posters report on it like it is a date, and hence the seduction is a critical part, and some... less so. In any case, looking way back through space and time, this would really only apply to guys who cop to "liking the chase" as their reason for consistently seeking OTC action in strip clubs as opposed to professionals and not to every guy who has ever tried to fuck a stripper. Nonetheless - fitting into the locker room notwithstanding, I think that exerting dominance in the less congenial way I construct is still a necessary corrollary of yours.
I don’t think I used the word “conquest” in this thread, though I was tempted a few times, because I knew it would provide fodder for exactly this question. :P
Dammit. You got me. I could have sworn.
However, you’re right, there’s very often an element of conquest, for males, in sexual encounters with females. I know you don’t care for this argument, but I would say that it has something to do with the fact that our mating system involves cheap sperm, expensive eggs, long gestation periods, and “choosy females.”
Hmm. Gosh. You regularly kick my butt at these types of arguments (although sometime I would like for you to explain to me the methodology behind these findings. Damn you for not being Canadian). However, I'm sure that you will agree that you cannot simply dismiss social factors - that they play in, significantly, somewhere. (although - funny story - I was having a similar such discussion with a guy the other night. He started talking and I said "Oh god. You're not about to say that sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive, are you? Are you Nicolina? Tell me the truth!")
I’d be curious to know, actually, if gay men think of their encounters with other men as conquests. I mean, is it part of the male psyche, or does it have more to do with overcoming choosy-female resistance? Hm….
Well, you should watch Queer as Folk. According to them - yes.
As we know, I don’t have any problem with males who have a desire to exert dominance. ::)
Pervert. But really - there is a big difference between ritualized dominance in the proverbial bedroom (even if it is not in an actual bedroom. Or any kind of room) which VERY few women don't like (although they may not like as much as you) and dominance being exerted over one's LIFE.
And honestly, that might have something to do with the fact that I feel a bit friendlier toward some of these guys than you do….
Oh, I don't know. I certainly spend a lot of time here. I think there is something interesting if you look at these postings in the context of socialized male/female communication tendancies - just how purely they are reflected on the board (not inevitably, but with reliable frequency). I have actually wondered on occasion if it is the tendancy of the men here to spend so much time in strip clubs that influences that - but that is another digression. God. I'm like a hamster. "Oooh - that looks like a shiny conversation piece! Let's go over there... oooh! Look at that one!"
True about the rolly eyes…but still. That’s required so that the other guys don’t make fun of them. If you read between the lines, you often find phrases that are intended to show that, in fact, the girl does not do “this”—whatever “this” might be (and it isn’t always sexual)—with everyone. At least, I think I find that when I read between the lines.
Yes, and this goes back to the tension between things they hope to be true and things they know to be true - or things they half know and contradictory things they half know (like doublethink - an entirely new kind of Big Brother. Another digression - what would we do without Orwell? Like how many people have read Saussere or Derrida? And the BBC lost or destroyed practically all his footage. Terrible thing.) So I suppose I must concede that, for some purposes, I am privileging one half. However, that doesn't mean that one can simply write off that half.
I wouldn’t characterize this as “crediting them with emotional naivete” so much as acknowledging the fact that humans, being the social animals we are, are powerfully driven by the urge to be liked, respected, and sexually desired by our “conspecifics” (i.e.,fellow humans). (Sorry, I just get off on using science journal jargon to describe stripclub dynamics. :) )
Oh, no, baby - don't apologize, I like it.
That’s a really good question. But I think it’s more about lust than “like” or “love”… azc kept mentioning a girl “losing control…” or at least giving that illusion.
Really? Thank you! I... don't know. Like, yes, of course a (hypothetical) guy wants a girl to want him, physically. But the dichotomy of "lust" and "like" rings a little false to me. Like, these things are not in opposition, and, in fact, feed each other. One does have something to do with the other.
Some of the guys want emotion, but most are looking for the equivalent of a really hot one-night stand. I think that both males and females are capable of using another person as sort of a masturbatory aid, which is what I think most one-night stands really are. It can still be seen as sort of flattering if someone wants to use you as a masturbatory aid…
Oh my god. My head just exploded. I cannot even respond to this here. This is a disgression so great it strains even my hamster-like brain.
And the guys who want emotion often seem to have ongoing “things” with their OTC girls.
But that doesn't mean that they are concerning themselves with the girl's feelings more than their (the guy's) gratification. That is okay if it is purely professional - it seems less okay if you are banking on the idea that the girl has some affection for you. Or really, not that is not quite true either (although it still has to be read in the context of guys who are looking for the chase - within that context, I can't imagine how this example would play out) because I know perfectly well that the kind of service that sex workers provide is actually complicated, and feelings get involved that are not necessarily demanding feelings. But still - having an ongoing OTC relationship doesn't mean that there is any negotiation with the girl's feelings and well being.
Once a girl fucks you for money, even if she’s fond of you, she will forever see you as a “customer.” I think it’s virtually impossible to make the leap from “trick” to “boyfriend.” Everyone involved in the exchange ultimately knows this. (Which is why “Pretty Woman” was patently ridiculous, mr_p. Even a “romantic” like me knows [i]that :P Actually, “True Romance” was a much better (and much grittier) fairy tale….)
Actually, Pretty Woman (I've heard) was based on a short script called 3000, in which the guy and hooker meet and spend a nice week together, and then she wants stay, and he wants her to go. It apparently ended with him throwing her out of the car. Interesting change? Now, how did you feel about the story and movie of Secretary?
Well, I think this goes back to the biology argument, to some extent. Also, there is more than one way to take down resistance, right? Like, you can take it down with some semblance of force, and get off on the fact that you forced someone to do something they didn’t want to do. Or, you can overcome resistance with charm, and get off on the fact that the power of your charm made someone want to do something that they didn’t initially want to do.
So when they say "chase" you read "seduction"? Hmm - I don't know how uniformly this would be reflected in the reports they post...
Or, you can overcome resistance with money, and not care one way or the other about the feelings of the other person.
The guys here seem to employ the latter two tactics in their efforts to procure stripper pussy.
Um, I would agree. I never meant to imply that they were PHYSICALLY forcing women to have sex. When I spoke of wearing women down etc., I meant with time and money.
Nicolina
07-22-2006, 12:05 PM
^ My sample size predates you
Ok...But have you run the ANOVA? What are your n, F, and p values? Are your results statistically significant? :P
azcustomer
07-22-2006, 06:30 PM
Ok...But have you run the ANOVA? What are your n, F, and p values? Are your results statistically significant? :P
It seems that the comparison here is between two sets of samples, not multiple sets of samples. Might this analysis be better served by a simple t-test?
Although beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If someone believes that strippers are better in bed, then most likely thier minds will make thier experiences meet this expectation.
Personally, I've found that roughly 10% or less of my sexual partners would be classified as "great". I do believe that extended VIP sessions will give you an indication of what a gal will be like in bed. In my experience, dancers seem to fit the 10% rule as well.
All that said, I'm not claiming to be a great variable in bed myself, I'm just speaking purely from the selfish end of the equation.
dlabtot
07-22-2006, 11:16 PM
I don't think of a paid-for OTC session with a dancer as the Holy Grail (though I'm PL enough that I can find it flattering). But I'm not one to BOAST about paid-for physical intimacy, as it doesn't seem all that boast-worthy.
I fully agree. Paid-for sex is just a very expensive form of masturbation. Like other types of masturbation, the experience sometimes is very pleasurable, and can remind one of what the real thing is like.
But it ain't the real thing.
mandragoran79
07-23-2006, 12:45 AM
However, you’re right, there’s very often an element of conquest, for males, in sexual encounters with females. I know you don’t care for this argument, but I would say that it has something to do with the fact that our mating system involves cheap sperm, expensive eggs, long gestation periods, and “choosy females.”
Sometimes I wish it was the other way around: Expensive sperm and cheap eggs. ::)
evan_essence
07-23-2006, 09:11 AM
Perhaps he merely believes she finds him more palatable than most other customers.Yeah, that's really splitting hairs between palatable and desireable. In his mind, she finds him more palatable because of his unique personal traits.
It's tough to believe she actually desires you when you're paying for it.Tough for you to believe, and tough for some others, but we know certain customers in the club are being fooled by SS. My hypothesis is that a larger number of customers are deluding themselves when it comes to the acquisition of HG. But I haven't done a scientific survey.
I thought Derek talked mostly about sessions with strippers that he'd met at clubs.Yeah, you're right. I need to clarify. He wasn't calling on escorts per se, but his "playa" modus operandi involved seeking out strippers who would then do out-call to his apartment for the kind of price an escort would charge. So I felt they were tantamount to escorts who were using the club as their base of operation.
I don't think of a paid-for OTC session with a dancer as the Holy Grail (though I'm PL enough that I can find it flattering). But I'm not one to BOAST about paid-for physical intimacy, as it doesn't seem all that boast-worthy.Neither do I think of it that way. But several here seem to offer testimony to the contrary, classifying OTC sex as HG, which appears a certain degree of PL to me, under the criteria for PLdom commonly used here. The common refrain at SCJ seems to be if you believe the deal is anything but a business transaction, you're being PL, but when it comes to scoring HG, I think junkies generally are condoning far more rationalization about it.
-Ev
evan_essence
07-23-2006, 09:22 AM
... the kind of customer i'm talking about doesn't care how many men you fuck or don't fuck. he knows where you work. he know what some of the girls will do where you work. he just wants the booty. if it's not your ass, then it'll be some other stripper's ass. guys like this are like sharks. they never stop swimming and the sc is always full of fresh meat.For the record, I've been using the PL label in my other posts in the manner in which it is commonly defined here, and for the sake of making observations. However, if I were allowed to redefine Pathetic Loser using my own worldview, it's these sharks you describe who I think are truly deserving of the PL label, not the guys with an ounce of romance -- either real or pretend -- in their souls regardless of how misguided it may be.
-Ev
evan_essence
07-23-2006, 09:34 AM
Ev...I think we are on friendly terms (I hope) otherwise I would be insulted that you mentioned me in the same post where you referred to Derek. Hes a fuckin retard. I'll just let that one go.Bwahahahaha. My point was that Derek may be less deluded than you are. No, wait, that can't be right. See my latest posts above. Derek was a shark -- a fuckin retarded shark. You, my darling, are not. :flirt:
-Ev
evan_essence
07-23-2006, 09:48 AM
In any case, looking way back through space and time, this would really only apply to guys who cop to "liking the chase" as their reason for consistently seeking OTC action in strip clubs as opposed to professionals and not to every guy who has ever tried to fuck a stripper. Nonetheless - fitting into the locker room notwithstanding, I think that exerting dominance in the less congenial way I construct is still a necessary corrollary of yours.
Ok...But have you run the ANOVA? What are your n, F, and p values? Are your results statistically significant? :PSomeone please get these girls drunk so they're pulled back down to my level. Does anyone else remember the days when strippers were stoopid, shook their big jugs and just wanted to spread 'em? Basically, the foundation SCJ was built on. Perhaps it's all this intellect that's scaring off potential customers.
-Ev
miabella
07-23-2006, 05:18 PM
bof, spss runs anovas automagically and you only have to install it, not know anything about its underlying form or structure. :P
mr_punk
07-23-2006, 07:52 PM
Once a girl fucks you for money, even if she’s fond of you, she will forever see you as a "customer." I think it’s virtually impossible to make the leap from "trick" to "boyfriend." Everyone involved in the exchange ultimately knows this. (Which is why "Pretty Woman" was patently ridiculous, mr_p. Even a "romantic" like me knows that. Actually, "True Romance" was a much better (and much grittier) fairy tale.)well, if everyone actually knew the deal. you wouldn't have customers going into sc and trying to turn a ho into a housewife. anyway, forget "Pretty Woman". it just occured to me that the type of customer you're describing would be applicable to the movie "the center of the world". i even wrote a review of this turkey (http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39215).
Actually, Pretty Woman (I've heard) was based on a short script called 3000, in which the guy and hooker meet and spend a nice week together, and then she wants stay, and he wants her to go. It apparently ended with him throwing her out of the car. Interesting change? Now, how did you feel about the story and movie of Secretary?LOL..now, that is an interesting twist. it's too bad they didn't stick with the original. btw, Secretary was an good, but offbeat movie.
For the record, I've been using the PL label in my other posts in the manner in which it is commonly defined here, and for the sake of making observations.well, that's very kind of you to lower yourself, evan.
However, if I were allowed to redefine Pathetic Loser using my own worldview, it's these sharks you describe who I think are truly deserving of the PL label, not the guys with an ounce of romance -- either real or pretend -- in their souls regardless of how misguided it may be.LOL..thanks for the morning chuckle. now, ain't that just precious. the empty platitude of a stripper. what next? crocodile tears. you know, the great thing about platitudes is that it costs the user nothing. i mean, despite all this bleeding-heart talk about these romantic misguided souls. i see you ladies aren't exactly in a hurry to point them in the right direction in the club. buy hey, mr_punk understands. after all, a girl's gotta do what a girl's...
Jenny
07-23-2006, 08:04 PM
LOL..now, that is an interesting twist. it's too bad they didn't stick with the original. btw, Secretary was an good, but offbeat movie.
I'm sorry - did you... read the story? I have a hard time imagining you going into a bookstore and buying Mary Gaitskill. I mean, I think she is pretty badass, but I would think that in your twisted imaginings it would be equivalent to buying a novel by Danielle Steele. Oh my gosh - do you read Danielle Steele too? You DO buy teddy bears and remember stripper's kid's birthday!
Pervert.
mr_punk
07-23-2006, 08:17 PM
I'm sorry - did you... read the story? I have a hard time imagining you going into a bookstore and buying Mary Gaitskill.your instincts are correct. i've never read the story.
I mean, I think she is pretty badass, but I would think that in your twisted imaginings it would be equivalent to buying a novel by Danielle Steele.oh come on, like Danielle Steele would write a story with a ho getting thrown out of a car. anyway, i just might buy the book based on your recommendation. actually, any story that involves someone getting thrown out of a car can't be all bad.
Jenny
07-23-2006, 08:27 PM
Well, I meant the story of "Secretary" not pretty woman.
mr_punk
07-23-2006, 09:00 PM
no problem. i'm curious to see the differences between the two. usually movie studios significantly change or water down movies based on books. of course, a movie isn't a book. however, it's rare that you see movies that stay fairly faithful to the novel.
Jenny
07-23-2006, 09:26 PM
Well, the volume is called "Bad Behaviour". Beware before you like it though: about 5 years ago she was THE favourite author of college aged women. Just - you're warned.
Actually something that kind of freaks me out about Gaitskill is that she was born the same year as my mother. You might have to know my mother to really get why that is so weird. But I just don't envision my mum or my mum's friends, you know, THINKING about this kind of thing.
mr_punk
07-23-2006, 11:37 PM
Dismissing an alternative to your perception of the world as banal. Clever, I think.what's more clever is how you didn't explain exactly how this alternative would benefit the romantic, misguided soul who thinks you're going to be his next girlfriend. i can see how it would benefit a stripper. i mean, if i were a stripper. i would love to have nothing, but romantic, misguided souls. a stripper can make a career taking these guys for a very, very long ride. however, i'm not a stripper. furthermore, what's good for the stripper doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the customer.
Wow, I had no idea you thought strippers capable of being guides to a customer's journey in life. I figure strippers, PLs and savvy customers are all on the same journey with various amounts of advancement. Regardless of position, the ones who get bitter and callous about it are the ones not making any progress.LOL...now, you know better, evan. the last thing i want you to do is stop him from jumping over the cliff. why that would be a terrible waste of popcorn. so, i don't expect you to be his guide. in fact, i have no problem with you milking his wallet dry because he thought you would be his girlfriend. i'm just saying it's pretty trite to say "i feel your pain" after you milked his wallet dry.