View Full Version : I've been reading the pink side again. :(
Jenny
11-21-2006, 07:21 PM
Yeah, but... I'm still in business.
And customers are experts about what they want; not how the product is made or the environment in which it is created and sold. So when we're forming a focus group (guys... would you buy a dance from me?) I'll let you know.
xdamage
11-21-2006, 07:30 PM
Yeah, but... I'm still in business.
Yea, but you're only responsible for you, not a whole company with many on going expenses, so don't stretch the analogy too far, it doesnt fit.
So when we're forming a focus group (guys... would you buy a dance from me?) I'll let you know.
I bet I'm not the only customer that read this as "fuck you, I don't want to hear your opinions" which is exactly what I'm talking about, being out of touch, you'd fail for sure with that attitude in a large business setting.
Jenny
11-21-2006, 07:34 PM
But I'm not. So it's your analogy that fails (remember a post ago when you said that many business go under by losing contact with their customer base?). And yeah - I think I've made clear that listening to you guys would be an excellent way to double my mileage and half my money.
In the business that I am in, I have reasonable success. So obviously I'm not that far out of touch with my customer base OR it doesn't matter if I am. Either way - you have nothing to offer me.
xdamage
11-21-2006, 07:40 PM
Well okay, I may have stretched too far.
I'm just saying, its common that people in companies lose touch with their customers, what the customers want, and what the competition has over them - companies often act like religious cults internally, believing they know it all, and lose touch with reality (in the sense of being able to put themselves in a customers shoes). And when it comes to business, customers are a business' best friends, not their enemies or adversaries. Keeping that in mind is key to not losing touch.
Jenny
11-21-2006, 07:43 PM
Like I said, honey - when we want a focus group we'll let you know.
xdamage
11-21-2006, 08:07 PM
Like I said, honey - when we want a focus group we'll let you know.
Like I said, precisely the type of "we" (aka internal cult-like) adversarial (against customer) type of attitude that causes most businesss to fail.
As a customer though, it's not my problem. If you're out of touch noone can convince you otherwise, the lure of the cult will always win. On the positive side, there are plenty of other dancers that want my $$s and know what a customer wants, and appreciate the business.
Jenny
11-21-2006, 08:21 PM
Now you're just talking nonsense.
Wait - did I say "Now"? I did. You're just talking nonsense. Really, do you even know what you want to criticize or are you just hot for me? I mean, really, what are you even talking about right now?
I suggested that people who work in strip clubs know more about the workings of strip clubs than people who frequent strip clubs - not such a wild, out of this world supposition, really. You responded that businesses frequently needed customer input (more or less; I mean you tried to inflate it a little, but that's what it amounts to). I said that customers are experts in what they want, and not anything else (and considering that mostly what customers want is more mileage, more attention and less cost - ooh. Mysterious.) I was being facetious about focus groups because it seems perfectly obvious to me (but of course, I'm just a girl and a stripper at that. So I realize that, while you concede that I'm quite bright for a girl and stripper you are necessarily much more intelligent and knowledgeable about any and every given subject, including, of course strip clubs) that while someone who is making lawnmowers may require a focus group to get at what customers, in general, want, I deliver a fairly tailored product and can actually ASK and determine what each customer wants individually. Thus, what YOU want as a customer has no relevance to me unless YOU specifically are my customer. And frankly, I find you irritating, and I don't think you have enough money to compensate me for that. So what YOU want is not particularly interesting or relevant. Pretty much the same thing goes for everyone here (except the irritation. I just come across that way). When I am trying to get their money, I can determine AT THAT TIME the best way to make them want to spend it on an individual basis (unless of course the methodology is unpalatable - then we have a cost benefit analysis).
xdamage
11-21-2006, 08:43 PM
I lost track of a lot of that, but what was that about making lawnmowers? I'm just curious because while I've spent a lot of time in the psychiatric field, and more years designing and implementing standards in a variety of computer fields, I've never ever worked professionally with lawnmowers. OTOH I have actively seeked out input from customers in the other fields. But there is this concept of generalization, where human nature that tends to be true in one business is also true in another. So for example, if I said it would make sense to actively seek out customer input in one or two fields, I don't need to have 1st hand experience in every possible field for that to still be true. Likewise if I said that people in companies often tend to lose touch with their customers in the fields I have been in, using generalization, I don't need to have direct experience in say, plumbing, or lawnmower making, to suggest that people in a business can lose touch with their customers, or see them as adversaries in other fields (including stripping).
But then, let's just drop this. Your right, customers don't have a clue, and every stripper understands the stripper/customer business relationship far better then customers, unlike say other businesses that fail, strippers are infallable and never lose touch with what customers want, and if they don't bank, it's never due to their own understanding of the situation. Happy now?
Jenny
11-21-2006, 08:49 PM
But then, let's just drop this. Your right, customers don't have a clue, and every stripper understands the stripper/customer business relationship far better then customers, unlike say other businesses that fail, strippers are infallable and never lose touch with what customers want, and if they don't bank, it's never due to their own understanding of the situation. Happy now?Yes. That was an excellent summary of what I said, completely disproving my former theory that although somehow you could type, that you couldn't actually read.
What was that you were telling me about "black-white thinking" again...
I was being facetious, by the way. Please don't tell us again.
xdamage
11-21-2006, 09:13 PM
Yes. That was an excellent summary of what I said, completely disproving my former theory that although somehow you could type, that you couldn't actually read.
What was that you were telling me about "black-white thinking" again...
I was being facetious, by the way. Please don't tell us again.
Let's just agree to disagree, because all arguments aside, it's not my job to judge you, or dislike you.
Phil-W
11-21-2006, 10:01 PM
I suggested that people who work in strip clubs know more about the workings of strip clubs than people who frequent strip clubs - not such a wild, out of this world supposition, really...I said that customers are experts in what they want, and not anything else (and considering that mostly what customers want is more mileage, more attention and less cost - ooh. Mysterious.)
Depends on the degree to which you get to see behind the scenes in a strip venue and the degree to which you know dancers socially as opposed to professionally. Also depends on your attitude towards stripping. I haven't taken it as anything other than an amusing diversion for several years.
I know the owners of several venues, and have a fair idea of what they consider makes their venues tick. I've also (when a show has been put on in a one off venue) shared changing rooms with dancers so have seen them 'backstage' and not putting on their dancer personas, etc.
Similarly several dancers are friends (the oldest friendship going back some 5 years now) and we've had more than a few conversations over a bottle of wine in the wee small hours.
My arguement would be that as long as you get to see the stripping/striptease scene on the other side of the fence from the business point of view, you can get a fairly realistic view of the underlying mechanisms are.
That's not to say my perspective will be the same as a dancer's - my experiences are by definition different - but I'd like to think we have aligned rather than divergent points of view.
Stripping/striptease is not an utterly mysterious experience whose mechanisms are only revealed to initiates, but a business (albiet an unusual one) like any other. If inputs/outputs can be seen (relatively free of the inevitable BS dancers need to use to earn) then you can begin to get an understanding of the rules (written and unwritten) that govern its operation.
Phil.
PS: And one dancer finds it highly amusing to teach me pole tricks - so I know they bloody hurt when you're a newbie at them.
sander8son
11-21-2006, 10:20 PM
what the fuck does this "we dont need your input as it doesn't help" and "you're an idiot for not listening to the customers" crap have to do with that chick stealing $350 from some guy and then bragging about it?
I'd also like to point out that genwar is now my official blue side bitch. I'd been searching for one since yoda retired from that position about two years ago. holy hell gen, i think you're more emotional and girly than me. you're upset about a handful of pinkies conning customers? go to the club and take out your aggression on some poor stripper that "was rude" by asking you for a dance, by fisting her in the ass when she's not looking.
Jenny
11-21-2006, 10:23 PM
Phil I never said it was mysterious.
And, in a nutshell, you're trying to say that you're friends with a dancer. I'm friends with an interior designer. It doesn't mean I could run his office. Generally, people who make a living doing something are considered to have expertise in the field of that thing; the more time you have spent doing that thing, the greater the expertise. In stripping there is no real education element, so training is moot. The premise doesn't actually seem that contentious. I think the reason it is becoming so is because the conclusion would be that the dreaded pinkies might be living in reality. Actually, the whole conversation is kind of moot, because as I said - there is no consensus on the pink side either.
Dammit. Now just seeing that sentence makes me feel so damn silly.
Jenny
11-21-2006, 10:24 PM
what the fuck does this "we dont need your input as it doesn't help" and "you're an idiot for not listening to the customers" crap have to do with that chick stealing $350 from some guy and then bragging about it?
I'm just.. really contentious. And easily baited. I'm sorry.
go to the club and take out your aggression on some poor stripper that "was rude" by asking you for a dance, by fisting her in the ass when she's not looking.Okay, I don't think anyone should do that. You need to ask, in advance, preferably in writing if she is okay with being anally fisted, and then have it notarized.
sander8son
11-21-2006, 11:10 PM
Okay, I don't think anyone should do that. You need to ask, in advance, preferably in writing if she is okay with being anally fisted, and then have it notarized.
Luckily my cock is a notary public. Unfortunately, only in Papua New Guinea. But he's always got two witnesses pressent!
Jenny
11-22-2006, 06:43 AM
^^^
but you just said that you were a woman.
Jesus Christ, Sandy, you're giving ME gender dysphoria.
sander8son
11-22-2006, 07:28 AM
^^^
but you just said that you were a woman.
Jesus Christ, Sandy, you're giving ME gender dysphoria.
Can't i be both? it depends on my personality at the time.
GenWar
11-22-2006, 07:47 AM
QUOTE=sander8son:
I'd also like to point out that genwar is now my official blue side bitch. I'd been searching for one since yoda retired from that position about two years ago. holy hell gen, i think you're more emotional and girly than me. you're upset about a handful of pinkies conning customers? go to the club and take out your aggression on some poor stripper that "was rude" by asking you for a dance, by fisting her in the ass when she's not looking.
--------------------------------
Sandy, I am truly honored. Does the position come with an expense account? }:D
I was not upset that she was an ROB. Any occupation, or really, group of people, will have a few members who do not behave within acceptable standards from a moral, ethical or even simple decency standpoint. Hell, I am a lawyer, I know that as well as anyone.
I was upset because she was proud of it. That it was a cause for celebration and, for a time, she was joined in that celebration by her peers. I was struck by the behavior being "acceptable."
I am a gentleman. That is how I choose to behave in a club. While, as mr_punk will be quick to point out if I get too cheeky, I do have a line and I do expect value for my money, in general, I want to be appreciated by and respectful of the dancers. (Well, as respectful as anyone can be while behaving with a casual and wanton disregard for her alveoli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveoli). ;) ) As such, I think, at the time I was reading the OP, I had some misguided expectation of holding others to that standard. Since I am respectful, I expected them to be respectful to me. M_n_M did a fine job of coldly smacking me out of that notion.
I seek a different experience than most of the people on here. If I can get a lady to spend time with me, have a few drinks, and co-enjoy the wonder of the strip club, as I do, I consider my night a success. My attitude is...To each his/her own...if you prefer the "fisting" route, more power to ya. But if my attitudes and goals make me the 2nd Official Sander8son Blue Side Bitch, in the context of the character that Sandy is, then I accept the title with pleasure. Indeed, I consider it an accolade. I may have it printed on a bumper sticker and put it on the Pacifica next to the "FBR! Live Holiday Tour 2006" sticker already there.
-gen
P.S. Wow...I have been around long enough to not be bothered by Sandy. I think that officially makes me a Blue Side Veteran. ;)
rockie
11-22-2006, 07:51 AM
GW: Don't be so amenable! Being Sandy's bitch in any way, shape, or form, has no upside - in the past, present, or future!
xdamage
11-22-2006, 08:36 AM
I was upset because she was proud of it. That it was a cause for celebration and, for a time, she was joined in that celebration by her peers. I was struck by the behavior being "acceptable."
You know, a part of me reacted that way, but then you know it really isn't so surprising. That's one of the downsides of group-think, often people in a group feel like they have to agree with the group no matter what. It happens in religious groups, political groups, in companies, etc., Several cheered her on, and at least one gave her tips on how to do it better next time.
On the positive side several did speak up and say it wasn't cool. In a different (non-group) setting possibly, even probably, a few more would have said that wasn't cool.
But you know what she did would have been considered clever and funny in a fictional setting. I guess not everyone gets that just because something is funny or clever in a fiction, doesn't mean it's cool to do for real.
Jenny
11-22-2006, 09:48 AM
liar! we're talking about temple virgins here. they would never do anything to get the club or their fellow girl scouts in trouble with the law. in fact, i'm positive they would never resort to such tactics to keep the money flowing.
I know it's going to be hard for some of you guys to let go of the idea that the pink side is a never ending Kumbaya, hand holding session of assurances of airdances for thousands of dollars. But really. Let it go. You guys are so hot on "reality" when it pertains you getting cheap blowjobs. Embrace the reality of the pink side.
i agree. which is why i don't go to SW or offer you broads advice on how to sell, dress, stage fees, clubs etc. what do i look like? DW? frankly, i'm not remotely interested in your side of the business. i go to sc to relax and not to earn a degree in stripology.
Oh please. You... big... hypocrite. I couldn't even count the number of time you've told me to just to bend over. However, I am profoundly grateful that you've never given me advice on how to dress.
however, i do BUY the product. so, don't you ladies come down here and tell me what i can and can't do, get and buy in a sc.
Wouldn't dream of it. However, back to the issue of expertise - we may be in a better position to tell you what you can TYPICALLY buy in a stripclub.
don't correct me on how i should or shouldn't behave towards a stripper.
Why on earth not? I mean, I could tell you how to behave towards waitstaff if I owned a restaurant. I could inform you of polite and impolite ways of interacting with salespeople in a hypothetical store that I owned. No, I think telling you "how to behave" - which is really us telling you how it is COURTEOUS to behave - we're on pretty firm ground.
furthermore, don't tell me that you're all temple virgins and girl scouts.
Wouldn't dream of it, never done it, no interest in doing it.
don't tell me what a stripper will and won't do in a dark corner.
This is kind of interesting. We've never said that stripper won't do "things" in dark corners. Different girls have said that they don't like some "things" that other girls do in dark corners because they have a theory that it pollutes our business environment. Entirely different issue. I don't know why you can't differentiate between "don't like" and "doesn't exist".
don't tell me i should follow these club rules
Again - information on how to polite really should be welcomed.
or give me tips how to have a good time.
Oh, god forbid that I involve any part of my mind in what would constitute a "good time" for you.
l
astly, don't tell me how i should spend my money or how much money i should spend. i think i'm the expert in this area.
Again - the nature of these admonitions run about parallel to a restauranteur saying "You can't go into a restaurant and not order!" You may disagree with the premise, and argue over it, but you can't deny that there is a viable position there.
oh yeah, please don't tell me that you ladies have never tried any of the above down here.
Okay, now you're just being bossy. Stop telling me what to do until you are paying me $20 a song.
mr_punk
11-22-2006, 01:06 PM
I know it's going to be hard for some of you guys to let go of the idea that the pink side is a never ending Kumbaya, hand holding session of assurances of airdances for thousands of dollars. But really. Let it go. You guys are so hot on "reality" when it pertains you getting cheap blowjobs. Embrace the reality of the pink side.bzzzt..wrong again. obviously, you must be confusing me with someone else. i never thought it was a never ending, Kumbaya with a circle of temple virgins. which is why i tell you biatches to keep the eyeball clawing upstairs or in the dressing room.
Oh please. You... big... hypocrite. I couldn't even count the number of time you've told me to just to bend over. However, I am profoundly grateful that you've never given me advice on how to dress.i've also told strippers to get her tits out and spread her ass cheeks. you see, i can do this because i'm the customer. so, this goes under the heading of what i WANT. it's not about what she wants. like you said, customers are experts in what they want, right? unless, you're trying to tell that now you're the expert in what i want. well, it wouldn't be the first time.
Wouldn't dream of it. However, back to the issue of expertise - we may be in a better position to tell you what you can TYPICALLY buy in a stripclub.see? there you go again giving me unsolicited advice. this ain't CC, red. if i actually listened to you broads. i would end up giving strippers money showers as soon as they walk out on the floor.
Why on earth not? I mean, I could tell you how to behave towards waitstaff if I owned a restaurant. I could inform you of polite and impolite ways of interacting with salespeople in a hypothetical store that I owned. No, I think telling you "how to behave" - which is really us telling you how it is COURTEOUS to behave - we're on pretty firm ground.bzzzt...wrong yet again. the overall point of my post is that while i think you are correct. OTOH, i also think you're wrong because you have no problem overstepping your boundaries down here just as much as the customers you're complaining about. so, either STFU about it or leave them to their own devices.
This is kind of interesting.<snip>
Again - information on how to polite really should be welcomed.
Again - the nature of these admonitions run about parallel to a restauranteur saying "You can't go into a restaurant and not order!" You may disagree with the premise, and argue over it, but you can't deny that there is a viable position there.no, it's not fucking interesting. it's not information. well, it's not useful information for a customer, IMO. it's the just same old thing. it's your industry's kool-aid that you're serving up. thanks, but no thanks. like i said, i'm not interested in your side of the industry. so, i don't need a stripper's unsolicited, "insider's" advice to help me spend my money or anything else for that matter. i find it highly ironic that you broads try to educate me (who has no interest) and other customers about your industry. yet, you ladies seem to have no problem pulling out the "i'm a stripper" card when someone oversteps your boundaries and have no problem overstepping a customer's boundaries whenever you see fit.
Okay, now you're just being bossy. Stop telling me what to do until you are paying me $20 a song.LOL...yeah, i thought so. you have tried it just like every other stripper who comes down here.
sander8son
11-22-2006, 02:06 PM
now, that's what i'm talking about! no wait! i have a better idea...have you discovered how make her fist herself with her own foot yet, sandy?
Well, sort of. But I've yet to figure out a way that does NOT include drugs and a bonesaw.
I know it's going to be hard for some of you guys to let go of the idea that the pink side is a never ending Kumbaya, hand holding session of assurances of airdances for thousands of dollars. But really. Let it go. You guys are so hot on "reality" when it pertains you getting cheap blowjobs. Embrace the reality of the pink side.
In the old days of SW it was exactly that. People who gave "contact" lap dances were shunned. Until eventually the nature of the industry in enough locations changed so that the vast majority of dancers on SW were giving contact dances. ofocrse, perhaps they always were, but were just denying it so as not to be tossed asside. ;-) Back when i started on sw/scj contact dances were considered EXTRAS by the majority on SW regardless of wether or not they were the norm in the region of the dancer performing them. And you know how the pinkies love those "extras girls".
Theres still a lot of handholding and assuring going on there. which has its place. but you see a lot of people flopping all over the place on issues as they just try to not offend and agree as much as possible with everyone. its acceptable for a female to question another female on SW, but almost NEVER acceptable for a male to question a female in most sections. I think this is where the guys get the sense of it simply being a kumbaya sing-a-long.
Sandy, I am truly honored. Does the position come with an expense account? }:D
It sure does! I'll be sending you all my reciepts. Pay them to me as you would normally pay for a dancer's purchases. PL Power!
I was upset because she was proud of it. That it was a cause for celebration and, for a time, she was joined in that celebration by her peers. I was struck by the behavior being "acceptable."
Get used to it :-P Just don't let it turn you into a jaded prick like me. Remember the SW ladies always claim they're "different" than the typical stripper. they see themselves as being somehow "better". But if youd like you could agree with them that they're different than the chicks in your club, but instead of thinking of the SW crew as better, think of them as "worse". Therefor, continuing to respect the ladies you frequent.
I seek a different experience than most of the people on here. If I can get a lady to spend time with me, have a few drinks, and co-enjoy the wonder of the strip club, as I do, I consider my night a success. My attitude is...To each his/her own...if you prefer the "fisting" route, more power to ya. But if my attitudes and goals make me the 2nd Official Sander8son Blue Side Bitch, in the context of the character that Sandy is, then I accept the title with pleasure. Indeed, I consider it an accolade. I may have it printed on a bumper sticker and put it on the Pacifica next to the "FBR! Live Holiday Tour 2006" sticker already there.
-gen
I can appreciate and respect that we have different goals. Ultimately its the same goal, we both seek to be entertained and pleased. We just prefer different methods ;-) As for the bumper sticker, I'd be honored, but I'm not sure its a good idea. Associating with me will undoubtedly cause the FBI to open a file on you and you'll undoubtedly draw the attention of many men and women of "questionable" sexual persuations and perversions. So on second thought, you may just want to carry a memberhip card in your wallet.
P.S. Wow...I have been around long enough to not be bothered by Sandy. I think that officially makes me a Blue Side Veteran. ;)
Hahaha, is that the gauge now? Just remember not to click on any external links I post or be prepared to see images you'll never be able to burn out of your memory. Welcome to the club.
WOW, i feel good. I responded to three people of completely different opinions in one post. I feel its sort of like a horseshoe. with punk and jenny each at one end and gen at the curved middle.
xdamage
11-22-2006, 03:08 PM
... but you see a lot of people flopping all over the place on issues as they just try to not offend and agree as much as possible with everyone.
That's why I don't read the pink side. And it's why I avoid religious groups, support groups, and occassionally play the asshole at work and stir the pot, because group-think causes companies to believe too much of the BS they feed to customers. While groups have their place, they often turn PC rotten, and often because a few senior members of the group sway the opinions of the majority (no matter how far off base they are).
Anyway, there were a few posts from girls that thought it wasn't cool, so it isn't completely rotten over there, but even many of those were carefully worded to avoid being ousted by the group. So not all strippers are out to cheat customers, even if many didn't see anything wrong in ripping off a customer, but I definitely watch my own back in the clubs. I just assume chances are at least one girl a night wouldn't think twice about ripping me off, and there is no way to know in advance who that girl is.
Jenny
11-22-2006, 03:59 PM
Back when i started on sw/scj contact dances were considered EXTRAS by the majority on SW regardless of wether or not they were the norm in the region of the dancer performing them. And you know how the pinkies love those "extras girls".
Well, we have had a revolution. Vive la lapdance!
Theres still a lot of handholding and assuring going on there. which has its place.
Hmm, but I think we have an equal amount "Stupid bitch" on pretty much every topic. I mean some things are no brainers, so they might come across as group think (like, you should be 10 feet away from the guy, or expect to have a fist rammed up your when you're unawares); but it's really just like "oh come on. Of COURSE we touch the customers. That doesn't mean we deserve to be forcibly fisted. This is a job for Captain Obvious."
but you see a lot of people flopping all over the place on issues as they just try to not offend and agree as much as possible with everyone.
Hmm. Maybe it is because I'm me, but I've never noticed this.
its acceptable for a female to question another female on SW, but almost NEVER acceptable for a male to question a female in most sections. I think this is where the guys get the sense of it simply being a kumbaya sing-a-long.
Well, I certainly never denied that we tell you guys to shut the fuck up and stay out of it. But that doesn't mean that we are either united or uniform.
I mean - in a nutshell, I think it is about this: you guys don't get to judge us. It's that simple. As long as you are not judging (and that includes conferring approval) you're fine. But so far as I can see all y'all have ample opportunity to judge us, to be rude to, to exhibit your preferences, however you want to say, IRL. And we tolerate because we have to, and because we get paid. But the pink board is not the forum for that kind of activity. But that is a limitation, one that is, frankly, intuitively obvious, on you guys. Not us.
xdamage
11-22-2006, 05:05 PM
Well, since we are talking in vague terms, true, but it depends what your job is. If you're a doctor performing a delicate surgery that you've spent several years practicing and perfecting, telling the pundits to go away makes sense. If on the othe hand you're job is an actor, or entertainer, or let's say a comedian, and your audience is telling you, hey, you're material is just not funny to us it would probably be a good idea to listen. Picking up on the doctor analogy again, it's commonly said that not all doctors have an equal "bed-side manner" - while any number of doctors might be able to treat a patient, not all are in touch with what patients are going through. A stripper might be able to go through the moves, and yet still be completely out of touch with what's going on in the customer's heads. Just because she can do the moves, and make the money, it doesn't mean she has a good sense of the personal dynamics. Jenny's argument that they are the strippers, and therefore the experts is an all or nothing argument, but it's not correct. They are all strippers true, but not all of them are experts in how the business side of things work, or in understand customer mentality. While most understand the side of the business and aspects of customers that affect them, that doesn't necessarily make them experts on running a club, or experts on understanding how their customers think. Some strippers clearly do understand these things better then others. I'd say some are 'experts' more then others. But my guess is most of the real experts in understanding customers, are experts because they don't completely shut out customer input.
What strippers are experts in is understanding what it's like to be a stripper, definitely understanding the parts about the job that sucks. That no customer really fully gets of course.
Anyway, I lost track of the "expertise in my job analogy" and how it applies to ripping off a customer for $350, other then to say that as a group, it would seem many of the pinkies approved of that move. And it's not like customers don't get ripped of in a million different ways in other lines of work, but we still don't have to approve of it.
mr_punk
11-22-2006, 06:09 PM
Jenny's argument that they are the strippers, and therefore the experts is an all or nothing argument, but it's not correct.oh, fu#k her argument. look, it's real simple. this ain't SW...period. you guys aren't trained lapdogs. so, no f#cking stripper can come down here and pull her "i'm a stripper" card out of her ass and use it on a customer when she feels they're overstepping their boundaries. especially, when said strippers are constantly overstepping a customer's boundaries. if they don't like it...tough titties.
Jenny
11-22-2006, 07:03 PM
oh, fu#k her argument. look, it's real simple. this ain't SW...period. you guys aren't trained lapdogs. so, no f#cking stripper can come down here and pull her "i'm a stripper" card out of her ass and use it on a customer when she feels they're overstepping their boundaries. especially, when said strippers are constantly overstepping a customer's boundaries. if they don't like it...tough titties.
I'm sorry, what are you going on about?
I'm a stripper. Therefore for all the reasons I listed at some point above I very likely know more about the workings of the industry than you do. You conceded as much already (although naturally you had to add an "I don't care about the industry". Fine. You don't have to. You still don't know). So why is my argument being fucked? Are you just trying to rile me up? Are you feeling neglected, like everyone is suddenly hating on someone else? Are you losing your sense of your virtual self?
Well, I don't really care.
I've also told strippers to get her tits out and spread her ass cheeks. you see, i can do this because i'm the customer. so, this goes under the heading of what i WANT. it's not about what she wants. like you said, customers are experts in what they want, right? unless, you're trying to tell that now you're the expert in what i want. well, it wouldn't be the first time.
This fails miserably as an argument because (as I've pointed out before) you are not telling me any of these things as my customer. You telling me things in a general way that you think strippers should behave. Hence: advice, not a customer preference. So. Yes you are the expert in what you want (spread your ass cheeks) but we've readily established that you are not an expert in general, and are not really all that in touch with what most guys want. So what is that particular commentary for?
Further - most of the way we "tell you guys how to behave" has to do with elementary courtesy and decency. I don't think anyone has come down here and said seriously "You should spend thousands of dollars in airdances". The closest I've read to that is "After a girl has given you a $40 blowjob it is polite to tip". I mean, you guys frequently disassociate strippers from the category of "humans" so you very likely have no idea of how despicably some of you sometimes behave.
BTW - stripper "wants" don't really enter this argument except insofar as we want you to shut the fuck up on SW. All I said is that it is not really reasonable for customer to assume that they know more about the industry, the working of the industry etc., than we do.
Jay - the person doing the job probably knows the most about doing the job? And may welcome and/or tolerate advice from colleagues but not from the public in general? Did I get it right?
Jenny, actually there have been a number of pink dancers who have come down here posting their rules of polite customer behavior or telling us what dogs we are for not being satisfied with their artistry. But, by and large, most of the dancers of that ilk stay upstairs where they are most comfortable and where we are happy for them to be.
Ive kind lost track of the back and forth to be honest. The fact that you as a dancer know more about your business perspective than we do and the fact that we as customers know more about our business perspective than you do seems to have been lost in the shuffle.
FBR
Katrine
11-22-2006, 07:30 PM
Mmm, these kind of debates fuel my gummy peaches cravings. But I'm going to save my lard and sugar consumption for tomorrow. Now, back to your regularly sequitered programming...
Kat tomorrow will definitley be fat Thursday. Im sure I will overeat. But that is the price you pay to get the kids to finally come over and put up with the old man.
FBR
Jenny
11-22-2006, 08:19 PM
Jenny, actually there have been a number of pink dancers who have come down here posting their rules of polite customer behavior or telling us what dogs we are for not being satisfied with their artistry. But, by and large, most of the dancers of that ilk stay upstairs where they are most comfortable and where we are happy for them to be.
Okay, I realize that coming down here and telling you guys not to touch the dancers is a waste that a few (mostly non-frequent posters, if I've noted correctly - but I could be mistaken) girls have made. Blah, blah, blah, go to hookers, blah, blah, blah (although, I really don't think there has ever been a truly satisfactory answer to why you go to strip clubs if you're only interested in a particularly high level of mileage. Just a lot of hedging). But mostly: go to strip clubs and plan to actually patronize and pay for the service you're enjoying; don't touch girls without permission. Isn't that the vast majority of the hectoring? Don't sexually touch people without permission and pay for that which you patronize.
Ive kind lost track of the back and forth to be honest. The fact that you as a dancer know more about your business perspective than we do and the fact that we as customers know more about our business perspective than you do seems to have been lost in the shuffle.
FBR
Certainly; I readily concede that a customer knows more about his experience as a customer than I do. However, again, I'm not making lawnmowers. I deliver a specific service and am, unlike a maker of lawnmowers, in a position to ask (for example) you "So, FBR, where do you want me?" and then ask (for example) GenWar the same thing, and deliver equally well both times, despite the fact that you may want entirely different things. So because there is no real need for a generalized, standardized product, there is no need for a generalized standardized customer experience (again, unlike lawn mowers). So, while I'm not arguing that you know what you want as a customer, your experience is specific to you; it isn't an industry wide thing. Further, you, as a customer, are in a position to know exactly what you want as a customer, but you are still not in the industry. Like I know what I like in a veggie burger; I hardly think that gives me a "business perspective" (except in the loosest possible sense) in the food industry (and they can't deliver a tailored product. They just have to find some quantum of what most people like, deliver one or two. Imagine if before each person ate a veggie burger they could say "so, how do you like veggie burgers?" or better yet, "How do you like veggie burgers TODAY?"). The people who have valid industry perspective (except in a general "focus group" kind of way) are the people IN the industry.
Hmm. I seriously doubt this helped to add any clarity to the back and forth.
Kat - just eat your... things. But know that they contain gelatin which is made of ground up bunny bones. Okay. I just wanted you to know.
Just a quick response to your philosphical question about why customers do what they do, Im reminded of a hilarious track on an old 1960's comedy album by Bill Cosby. The title of the track is "Why is their air?" It is funny as hell but the bottom line was that who the fuck knows? It is what it is.
Reading your analogies about lawnmowers and veggie burgers (several times ;) ), I dont disagree other than I did detect (maybe I was wrong) that you view the customer experience so varied and inconsistent that its impossible for us to feel any degree of uninimity whereas the stripper experience is uniform and that you can all march in sisterhood driven lock step, content in the knowledge that ya'll know exactly where we custys are coming from. Maybe Im reading more into what you said than what you said.
FBR
mr_punk
11-22-2006, 09:13 PM
I'm a stripper. Therefore for all the reasons I listed at some point above I very likely know more about the workings of the industry than you do. You conceded as much already (although naturally you had to add an "I don't care about the industry". Fine. You don't have to. You still don't know). So why is my argument being fucked?your argument is fucked because you think this is SW. it's not SW. in fact, i recall you being quite irritated when i pulled out the "i'm a customer" card act on you. it seems you didn't like the taste of your own medicine. all i'm saying is that if you feel perfectly free to overstep your bounds. i don't see why a customer shouldn't feel free to do the same.
Further - most of the way we "tell you guys how to behave" has to do with elementary courtesy and decency.see, there you go again. that's another classic example of how a stripper oversteps her boundaries by correcting the unwashed masses. anyway, i'll have you know my mother did a fine job of educating me on elementary courtesy and decency in the cave with the other wolves.
The closest I've read to that is "After a girl has given you a $40 blowjob it is polite to tip".only if she swallows....maybe.
Jenny, actually there have been a number of pink dancers who have come down here posting their rules of polite customer behavior or telling us what dogs we are for not being satisfied with their artistry.exactly, FBR. frankly, some of them act as if it's their job to educate the rubes who just fell off the turnip truck and never been to a sc in their life.
Jenny
11-22-2006, 09:30 PM
Reading your analogies about lawnmowers and veggie burgers (several times ;) )
I know. I make no sense. It's sad being me.
I dont disagree other than I did detect (maybe I was wrong) that you view the customer experience so varied and inconsistent that its impossible for us to feel any degree of uninimity whereas the stripper experience is uniform and that you can all march in sisterhood driven lock step, content in the knowledge that ya'll know exactly where we custys are coming from. Maybe Im reading more into what you said than what you said.
FBR
Now FBR. That would be silly of me. And I just don't make rhetorical errors. However, to go back to my hypothetical of moving between you and GenWar - I have then experienced both of you, while each of you have still only experienced yourselves. Like, yes, obviously dancers are qualitatively different, but you, as customers, know, is how to (or how to not) get what you want out of a stripper. Whereas a stripper knows (or doesn't know) how to deliver to a variety of customers. And ultimately - I deal with like 10 000 guys. You just deal with you.
So the stripper experience isn't uniform (as I've said, but I can see how it might seem a corollary to what I said about lawnmowers. Wait... oh fuck. You know what I mean) but it is universal insofar as it is their job, they deal with a variety of situations that customers don't deal with... etc. In a nutshell - it's their job. Of course they know about it. And this is not really a huge thing - it was a brief aside when a guy commented on pinkies living in a fantasy world.
Jenny
11-22-2006, 09:40 PM
your argument is fucked because you think this is SW. it's not SW.
Well, okay, we can just get this out of the way right now and get along.
I know. The colours change and everything.
in fact, i recall you being quite irritated when i pulled out the "i'm a customer" card act on you.
Well, I don't know exactly what you are referring to, but it is not valid for all purposes. For example - being a stripper does not (as you point out) enable me to tell you what you like in a stripper. I may enable me, however, to tell you what MOST guys, or what guys generally, like in a stripper. So, your customer card is legitimate to tell me what you like; not how the industry works, and certainly not how I should behave with customers other than you, let alone on a message board on which you are not paying me to put up with your crap. Seriously. You constantly trot out the fact that I'm a stripper, while neglecting that we are not interacting as stripper and customer or you would be paying me. If you were paying me I *might* consider - just consider, mind you - being a little more pliant.
it seems you didn't like the taste of your own medicine. all i'm saying is that if you feel perfectly free to overstep your bounds. i don't see why a customer shouldn't feel free to do the same.
I think I've made it clear that I think I'm well within my bounds, and I've explicated why I think that.
see, there you go again. that's another classic example of how a stripper oversteps her boundaries by correcting the unwashed masses.
Okay. Please accept this advice, not from me as a stripper or even a woman, but as a human being. Don't sexually touch people without permission or consent.
anyway, i'll have you know my mother did a fine job of educating me on elementary courtesy and decency in the cave with the other wolves.
Hmm. Not for nothing - but everyone thinks their mother did a fine job. Some people must be wrong. I would posit that strenuous argument regarding the above statement ("Don't sexually touch people without permission or consent") not to mention the fact that you disregard it because it comes from a stripper would indicate that your wolfy education was perhaps not as satisfactory as you claim.
In a nutshell - maybe it didn't take.
exactly, FBR. frankly, some of them act as if it's their job to educate the rubes who just fell off the turnip truck and never been to a sc in their life.
Yes. "Pay for services that you utilize", "Don't sexually assault women". Real onerous demands there. Very difficult to operate under. And very contentious in most circles. And certainly specialized knowledge that only a stripper could tell you. Seriously - you're just like x. You don't even know what you're arguing. You just don't like anyone paying attention to anyone else. Do you want a hug? Because I'm totally not going to do it. But Jay or FBR might. Being mods and all; it might be some kind of duty.
Well I agee that experiencing me and Gen would in fact be vastly differing experiences requiring different rules of engagement. He's younger, likely better looking, makes smoking a cigar attractive even in this anti tobacco day and age, and based on his posts has more playmoney than even I do. And is most likely a nicer person. But taking that a step further and relating it to interacting with strippers, I know full well that my own rules of engagement and behavior would be drastically different when interacting with you (hypothetically of course) as compared to, say, Miss D. I'm sure if I ever visited you at your club and sought out your services you would give me good value within the scope of the dollars I was spending, the rules of your club and your personal ethos. On the other hand I get no mileage from Miss D in the club. Said mileage is deferred to other times and places. Yet I can behave equally well in both senarios despite the drastically different circumstances. And I dont think Im that atypical.
Im not sure I made a point at all but I think I know what I mean ever if I didnt state it so well.
FBR
Jenny
11-22-2006, 10:00 PM
I'm sure if I ever visited you at your club and sought out your services you would give me good value within the scope of the dollars I was spending, the rules of your club and your personal ethos. On the other hand I get no mileage from Miss D in the club.
What?
I'm sorry, so what are you trying to say about me and mileage?
I'm kidding. I'm actually going to have a e-session, so I can't respond in full. But I had to get at least a little bit offended or I would no longer be pink.
mr_punk
11-22-2006, 10:03 PM
Well, I don't know exactly what you are referring to, but it is not valid for all purposes.bzzzt wrong. that make you what? 0 for 6?
For example - being a stripper does not (as you point out) enable me to tell you what you like in a stripper.it also doesn't enable you to tell customers how to spend his money. yet, it's never stopped you from telling how to spend his money.
I think I've made it clear that I think I'm well within my bounds, and I've explicated why I think that.so, go ahead. however, don't take issue with a customer who does the same to you. he's well within his bounds as well.
Okay. Please accept this advice, not from me as a stripper or even a woman, but as a human being.no, i don't need an advice from a stripper. so, go up to CC and sell your kool-aid to some rube who will be impressed with your "insider's" knowledge.
Hmm. Not for nothing - but everyone thinks their mother did a fine job. Some people must be wrong.well, you would know about being wrong. it seems you're the expert on being wrong on this thread.
Jenny LOL Well I cant imagine you and I having a conversation about where we are going to have lunch before hitting the RR this coming Saturday. Not that RR with you is an unpleasant thought...just an unrealistic one ;)
FBR
Katrine
11-22-2006, 10:17 PM
.
Kat - just eat your... things. But know that they contain gelatin which is made of ground up bunny bones. Okay. I just wanted you to know.
Hmmm, russians love to eat rabbits. I don't care for the taste myself. My mom never prepared it when I was growing up after seeing her own mom butcher a cute little bunny in front of her eyes. Oh, the long fuzzy ears, oh my!
Dear hunting season is all about it right now in Texas. Most of us get a taste when we hit them with our cars accidently. As long as I don't have to kill it myself, I'm eating it!
xdamage
11-23-2006, 02:05 AM
look, it's real simple. this ain't SW...period. you guys aren't trained lapdogs. so, no f#cking stripper can come down here and pull her "i'm a stripper" card out of her ass and use it on a customer when she feels they're overstepping their boundaries. especially, when said strippers are constantly overstepping a customer's boundaries. if they don't like it...tough titties.
/nod
The blue side site feels like it's being policed by the SW side for political correctness, stripper correctness, and feminism correctness - I.E. it feels more like a purple site then a blue site much of the time.
As a side point, I (and I suspect this is true of a lot of guys) spend the majority of my life being PC correct, behaving in socially acceptable ways, etc.
The whole point of going to a SC is to put that aside for a few hours, have a drink, and enjoy my inner pirate. And I don't think the majority of strippers get that at all, including J as was evidenced by her rantings about the evils of being objectified in a SC. They want us to treat them like ladies, like we are out on a date, like the PL worshiping bitch boys that grovel for their attention OTC. And that's just reverse PLism to me.
And for example, the original thread that the Gen linked - the girl was so terribly offended at being propositioned... it's clear she had no clue at all why most guys go to the club. What she should have laughed off if she had a clue, proved that she's just as big a PL as the customers that can't separate real life from the entertainment that goes on in an SC. What many of the SW crowd doesn't get is that if I wanted a date I'd go out on a date. If I wanted to be gentlemen, if I wanted to act just like I do OTC, I wouldn't be in the clubs paying for it.
I'm very sure that the majority of strippers are ever bit as much the PLs as the customers; completely unable to separate real life norms from the entertainment that goes on in the clubs. Both take it far too seriously, and (all words aside) really don't get that it's just entertainment. For the customers, they end up in having real feelings for the stripppers. For the stripppers, they end up having real (often negative) feelings for the customers. Same coin, different sides, both clueless.
xdamage
11-23-2006, 02:34 AM
whereas the stripper experience is uniform and that you can all march in sisterhood driven lock stepp
Actually I'd say a lot of my issues start right there, mixing "sisterhood" with the job of stripping.
But outside of the stripping realm, I for example work in a field that is predominately male, and yet it never enters anyone's miind that the job is related to "brotherhood". A female is welcome as long as she can do the work. A guy is unwelcome if he can't do the work.
The desire to confuse sexism (female side) with the job of stripping is J's and many other's strippers desire, but outside of that realm I'd say the majority of people in the majority of jobs have long since gotten over thinking about sex in the work place - we just do our jobs, and don't really give a shit about sexism - we're getting paid to do a job, not to solve the world's problems.
And of interest, I know many women that think strippers, well sexworkers in general, undermine the "sisterhood". But as a customer, the sisterhood or brotherhood is the last thing on my mind when I'm in the clubs. I'm just paying to have a good time for a few hours.
Jenny
11-23-2006, 07:18 AM
Jenny LOL Well I cant imagine you and I having a conversation about where we are going to have lunch before hitting the RR this coming Saturday. Not that RR with you is an unpleasant thought...just an unrealistic one ;)
FBR
I was going more for a "What are you talking about? I don't DO mileage. I am saving myself my marriage, preferably to a Christian rock star, would never defile myself by letting some CUSTOMER touch me."
I don't think it worked.
Jenny
11-23-2006, 07:41 AM
Hmmm, russians love to eat rabbits. I don't care for the taste myself. My mom never prepared it when I was growing up after seeing her own mom butcher a cute little bunny in front of her eyes. Oh, the long fuzzy ears, oh my!
They have such cute little faces. I mean at least chickens aren't cute. When they're adults. My friend's baby refuses to eat meat. Took to all the vegetables, won't eat meat. He's about 11 months old. I suggested it was an ethical stance.
Dear hunting season is all about it right now in Texas. Most of us get a taste when we hit them with our cars accidently. As long as I don't have to kill it myself, I'm eating it!
One of the places I was in the states the deer were regularly hit by trucks. They more or less seemed to just explode on impact.
Phil-W
11-23-2006, 01:31 PM
I'm very sure that the majority of strippers are ever bit as much the PLs as the customers; completely unable to separate real life norms from the entertainment that goes on in the clubs. Both take it far too seriously, and (all words aside) really don't get that it's just entertainment. For the customers, they end up in having real feelings for the stripppers. For the stripppers, they end up having real (often negative) feelings for the customers. Same coin, different sides, both clueless.
To put it tactfully - utter rubbish.
I know a number of dancers outside of work (three well, several others as casual friends). I also know a significant number of dancers well enough at work that we dispense with the usual dancer/customer BS and hold a perfectly normal conversation despite the somewhat unusual environment.
The great majority of them are perfectly normal people away from work. Of the dancers I know well, two are studying (marine biology and psychology respectively) and one runs her own on-line business. Two of the three are banking a good part of the money they earn, and one of those already owns significant investments. The third is a travel freak, and dances to get the money to visit assorted far flung parts of the globe. Ditto the others - several already have degrees and/or investments.
They tend to be perfectly normal individuals who view the guys who come to watch them dance with wry amusement. (Guys who chase mileage/behave like assholes get viewed slightly differently).
Away from work, I'd struggle to see any difference in behaviour from girls who do a more conventional job. Sure, from time to time they get upset and behave emotionally, but that's generally nothing to do about work - and no different is amount from any other girl.
Yeah, if I put my mind to it, I can think of a few who are unable to "unable to separate real life norms from the entertainment that goes on in the clubs", but then I know a number of other girls who don't dance who can be drama queens as well.
The great majority of dancers are perfectly conventional individuals who do an unconventional job. Outside of work, they generally forget about what they do from the time they leave the venue, until the time they go back for the next shift.
Customers (in general) are the poeple who pay their wages and they couldn't care less about them when they're not working. The average dancer gives very little thought to the guys they dance for - they're $$$'s - end of story.
Sorry if that doesn't meet your preconceptions, but thst's the way it is.
Phil.
xdamage
11-23-2006, 03:04 PM
To put it tactfully - utter rubbish.
...snipped phil's sucking up comments...
Sorry if that doesn't meet your preconceptions, but thst's the way it is.
Phil.
Oh, I forgot, you are an expert on all strippers because you know some that are (you believe) well adjusted.
So next time a stripper rips off a customer who shocks her sensibilities by propositioning her, or comes down to SCJ to ask is "is this how you guys really think?" in emotional shock over some customer comment or action that she wouldn't tolerate from her BF, or is having a bad emotional day because some customer objectified her while she banks multiple $20 bills while the customer stares at her tits, or is emotionally offended because some of her customers aren't "gentlemen", I'll send her to you Phil. Then you can repeat all of the suck up comments to them, about how the strippers you drive home from work are perfectly normal individuals, and how that means most must be. Why maybe if you write all that again, maybe some more dancers will let you drive them home!
All that said, don't get too hung up on the word "majority" - lets just say some then, because I doubt either of us is an expert on the actual figures. But I do think you'd be surprised how many girls enter the business every year and it's a long time before they grow out of their PL phase.
Docido
11-23-2006, 03:58 PM
Most dancers I know don't fit the coked out wild party girl cliché either, but enough do to give the cliché some validity. Or it could be that I avoid the party girls like the plague. I have enough drama in my life.
Jenny
11-23-2006, 04:04 PM
Well, honey: a lot of dancers are a lot younger than a lot of guys that patronize dancers. Take a 20 year girl, put her in a "party" environment - guess what? She might have a little party. Girls at 30 a little less inclined to do a ton of shots (honestly? I'll still do a couple. As long as they're far apart), and generally party up. Guys I realize don't alter this way with age - they either party professionally for life, or never do it (I'm kidding. I'm sure all your remember... stuff from when you were 20). So maybe the error is that it is not so much a "stripper" cliche, as a young woman cliche? The first bar I worked in for a long time - all the dancers were very young and very new and in retrospect it seems perfectly obvious that we thought we were having a slumber party. Like tequila, pizza and loud music, man.
Docido
11-23-2006, 04:24 PM
Jenny called me Honey!! :D
Yeah, I suppose it could be like a pizza, tequila, and loud music party, but you’re leaving out the grinding and the body fluids. Or maybe your slumber parties aren't very naughty. I do get what your saying, if I was a 20 year-old stripper making 300 to 400 a night (Hey, I can dream can't I) I'd be enjoying myself too. But I was really referring to women who most objective observers would say are already well down the road to addition.
Oh Yes, I’m also disgustingly old, perverted, and loathsome. ;)