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Jenny
11-23-2006, 04:34 PM
Oh, I knew. I could just smell the perversion and loathsomeness through the internet.
It's just that what some guys call a "party girl" is probably, sometimes, just a normal girl.
And back when I first started there weren't fluids and grinding (in fact, I could tell a story about the first guy who blew on my vagina. I felt completely violated. Looking back, of course, it's just amusing). Lapdancing had just been banned in Toronto and we naively dreamed that we could turn back the clock; and we were all under 20 and new - so our idea of good earnings was not as... well, we were content with a little as long as we were having fun.

Phil-W
11-23-2006, 04:41 PM
So next time a stripper rips off a customer who shocks her sensibilities by propositioning her, or comes down to SCJ to ask is "is this how you guys really think?" in emotional shock over some customer comment or action that she wouldn't tolerate from her BF, or is having a bad emotional day because some customer objectified her while she banks multiple $20 bills while the customer stares at her tits, or is emotionally offended because some of her customers aren't "gentlemen", I'll send her to you Phil.

Firstly, I've always said dancers react to they way they're treated. Treat a girl like a "stripper" and she'll behave exactly as you expect her to behave. She's there to earn, and she sure as hell is not going to spend half her night explaining that she conforms to stereotype because that's the most efficient way to earn.

These days I only go to venues to pick up a dancer, and most of the time I don't pay much attention to the dancing. Instead I sit down and chat (in a normal conversational manner) to the other girls I know and they react to me in the same way.

I tend to have known these girls for several years, and they know I don't take it seriously, so they're quite happy to behave with me exactly the same way as they do in the 'real world'. We ain't trying to impress each other or manipulate each other - we're just chatting as if we would outside the venue - no dramas, no objectification, just bog standard conversation. Result - they don't bother conforming to stereotype.

Secondly, it's work to most dancers. Probably 90% of the time they dance for punters whose behaviour they can live with. It's only the 10% of the time they meet an asshole you hear about it on here. It's what we all do - we only bitch about the exceptional and rapidly forget about the common place.

Stripper web is not (IMHO) representative of either dancers or customers anyway. Only a small proportion of each post on here. I'll take a guess that about 200 dancers and slightly less customers post regularly - what percentage is that of the total dancer and customer population? People posting here are not exactly typical of the denizens of strip land - and again we only post about the interesting, not the mundane.

How many dancers rip off customers big time, suffer from emotional shock or seriously object to being objectified? Not a large percentage I'd say - again the exception, not the rule. The great majority of dancers go home after each shift without suffering great dramas at work. And from my (limited) experience they don't spend a great deal of their time away from work agonising about their chosen vocation - life's too short.

For most of them it's just a way of earning a living that suits their inclinations. Most dancers have some degree of exhibistionistic streak - they wouldn't do what they do otherwise - but I've not exactly noticed them stripping off unless they get paid for it. They do what they do in the unusual environment of a strip club, and when they leave they go back to being little miss normal.

Sure, if I put my mind to it, I can find dancers who fit the 'manipulative bitch' stereotype. One girl I know has taken a rich guy obsessed with her for approaching $250K. She's also got the most armour plated emotions that I know - I suspect she's incapable of having a normal relationship with a guy - all they are is a source of funds to her. But this dancer is very much the exception to the rule.

Sorry if I make it all very boring and mundane, but the great majority of dancers seem to lead lives pretty much the same as the rest of us. It might be far more interesting to concentrate on the few that don't, but it's also very misleading.

Phil.

gameover
11-23-2006, 04:41 PM
Oh, I knew. I could just smell the perversion and loathsomeness through the internet.
It's just that what some guys call a "party girl" is probably, sometimes, just a normal girl.
And back when I first started there weren't fluids and grinding (in fact, I could tell a story about the first guy who blew on my vagina. I felt completely violated. Looking back, of course, it's just amusing). Lapdancing had just been banned in Toronto and we naively dreamed that we could turn back the clock; and we were all under 20 and new - so our idea of good earnings was not as... well, we were content with a little as long as we were having fun.

Jenny, are you trying to tempt me to go to toronto? :)

xdamage
11-23-2006, 06:17 PM
So maybe the error is that it is not so much a "stripper" cliche, as a young woman cliche?

Agree.



Looking back, of course, it's just amusing).


Well this is the thing. Most of what is being talked about has little to do with what is, and lot to do with how the dancers and customers feel about it (which changes with experience). And a lot, on both sides, go through a naive period where they take it all too seriously for their own good. Guys getting emotionally serious about strippers, strippers internalizing and taking it personally when a customer turns them down or pushes the limits, different sides of the same coin.

xdamage
11-23-2006, 06:28 PM
Firstly, I've always said dancers react to they way they're treated. Treat a girl like a "stripper" and she'll behave exactly as you expect her to behave. She's there to earn...

Seriously, stop. Think about what you wrote. 'Treat a girl like a "stripper", and she'll behave...'

You're doing the typical PL thing and implying that being a stripper in a strip club is a bad thing.

That's what you don't get. There is nothing wrong with acting like a stripper in a strip club, nor is there anything wrong with customers enjoying strippers acting like strippers in a strip club. If you're arguing that customers should treat dancers like dates, gentlemen, boyfriends, goddess worshiping bitchboys, friends, or anything but a stripper, then you're being another one of the PLs that just doesn't get it.

It's a strip club, she gets to treat you like a customer, you get to treat her like a stripper, don't take it anymore seriously then that, that's all it is. You don't need to try to be their friends, or impress them, or anything else, it's just entertainment, and being a stripper (and treating a dancer like one in a SC environment) doesn't mean anything more then treating a waiter like a waiter in a restaurant, or a salesman like a salesman in a store. It's not derogatory to think of the strippers in a strip club as strippers (unless it is that you have it in the back of your mind that being a stripper is really a bad thing - do you Phil???)

I think the difference between you and I is that while I go to unwind after several months of hard work, you seem to go to try and build long term relationships with them. I don't want that. It's not the place for it. I'm just going for the purpose of having a good time, and then I'm done with it for a few more months. I don't want to be the dancers friends, I don't want to drive them home at night, or get to know them, or what's going on in their lives, it's just not the place to do that. And on the flip side, if I'm respecting a strippers boundaries, and I'm paying her well, why should she give a damn if I think of her as a stripper in a strip club?

Jenny
11-24-2006, 12:16 AM
Jenny, are you trying to tempt me to go to toronto? :)
I think we've well, truly, completely and in all other ways established that
1. I scare you
and
2. I don't need to smell your perversion any better than I do now.

Cally
11-24-2006, 02:11 AM
Seriously, stop. Think about what you wrote. 'Treat a girl like a "stripper", and she'll behave...'




Hmm... I guess you got it all figured out eh?

I've actually made a lot of friends in the club.. and im not talking dancers. I've become friends with a lot of customers. When a customer treats me like a humane being rather then a stripper I tend to treat them a lot better then I would treat a 'customer'. But again this comes down to what a guy is looking for in the club. Alot of guys go for conversation, others go for 'extra' services and others go for just the quick lap dance, pay the girl and get the fuck out. Now dont get me wrong, I like the 'give me my dance and let me leave' customer because i can make my quick money and move on to the next. But yea I also love the guys who are there to chill with the girls and have a good time. To each is own.

Jenny
11-24-2006, 06:45 AM
Hmm... I guess you got it all figured out eh?

I've actually made a lot of friends in the club.. and im not talking dancers. I've become friends with a lot of customers. When a customer treats me like a humane being rather then a stripper I tend to treat them a lot better then I would treat a 'customer'. But again this comes down to what a guy is looking for in the club. Alot of guys go for conversation, others go for 'extra' services and others go for just the quick lap dance, pay the girl and get the fuck out. Now dont get me wrong, I like the 'give me my dance and let me leave' customer because i can make my quick money and move on to the next. But yea I also love the guys who are there to chill with the girls and have a good time. To each is own.

What I think is actually kind of interesting is the apparently shared supposition that the proper way or the standard way to treat a stripper is badly. I mean why are we not assuming that being treated like a stripper is to be treated with courtesy and respect (within the confines of a professional relationship, of course). I mean I can easily and conveniently treat my waitress like a waitress AND a human being. Simultaneously. It is not a problem for me. I can expect her to do her job and also be courteous, nice and not grab food out of her hands before it is given to me, or sitting around drooling over other people's food. Moreover - I don't find this to be particularly onerous or a difficult duty. I look at it as normal social intercourse, and the fact that she is doing a job doesn't exempt her that normal social intercourse. I mean a whole whack of guys treat us like human beings all the time. It doesn't mean bringing us teddy bears and mailing us money. But it is hard to like customers or even the idea of customers if we're expected to believe that they are humans and we are subhumans and that is the desirable intercourse between us.

Of course, you are much friendlier and less irritable than I am, overall, so you are also much friendlier and less irritable in the club.

Katrine
11-25-2006, 03:41 PM
Oh brother, you guy are just spewing rubbish out of your asses, especially X. I'm even inclined to agree with Phil here. Just remember boys, many of these girls are young and immature. Its what most customers demand. After all, that lack of inhibition and tightly contracted gluteal mass that remind you of your own lost youths and dull lives. With that comes the observation that some of these girls are only now figuring you out.

"Oh my! He wants to do what with me where? G-ROOOOOS!!!!" So what, they're new strippers, they'll get jaded and used to it like the rest of us.

Hence, the same youthful energy associated with stripping keeps women believing its a "girl power" thing. It really isn't, we're actually competitors. Its false wrapper strippers place themselves into to keep from tearing out each other 's throats. Or that's one way to look at it...


Back to your sniveling......

Jenny
11-25-2006, 04:17 PM
You know I like being told off by Katrine. Somehow she just makes it good.

FBR
11-25-2006, 04:20 PM
I was going more for a "What are you talking about? I don't DO mileage. I am saving myself my marriage, preferably to a Christian rock star, would never defile myself by letting some CUSTOMER touch me."
I don't think it worked.

Jenny I was just engaging in some cheap, uncalled for flirtations. Notice my reference to RR and the winkie at the end of my post. Guess those didnt work either. I apologize for my unseemly behavior.

FBR

Jenny
11-25-2006, 05:06 PM
Dammit. I'm not getting ANYTHING right today.

FBR flirted with me.
Gosh.
Shucks.
I can't think of anything to do except push my hair behind my ears and blush.

FBR
11-25-2006, 05:12 PM
Dammit. I'm not getting ANYTHING right today.

FBR flirted with me.
Gosh.
Shucks.
I can't think of anything to do except push my hair behind my ears and blush.

Since you asked...do you bat your eyes? I mean I know you bat your eyes..we all do..but do you bat your eyes that way? That always gets to me.

FBR

Jenny
11-25-2006, 05:28 PM
Since you asked...do you bat your eyes? I mean I know you bat your eyes..we all do..but do you bat your eyes that way? That always gets to me.

FBR
No. But I do sort of tilt my head down and to the side and look up at you.

I mean... I don't know, it's totally unconscious.

FBR
11-25-2006, 05:44 PM
No. But I do sort of tilt my head down and to the side and look up at you.

I mean... I don't know, it's totally unconscious.

Damn Jenny I was hoping for eyebatting directed at me. There is such marvelous sincerity in that simple act. I admit Im jaded but most often when I see head lowering and tilting, its usually the dancer taking those brief seconds to scope out the guys coming in the front door. Or maybe check to out the nearby tables.

FBR

Jenny
11-25-2006, 05:57 PM
and it comes grinding to a halt. I can't possibly manage an eyebat. It's too girly. It would look weird. I'm very butch in real life. I have a kind of "touch bitch" thing happening. If I tried to bat my eyes I'd look like I was a clydesdale trying to be a my little pony.

But, you know... it was fun while it lasted.

FBR
11-25-2006, 06:53 PM
But, you know... it was fun while it lasted.

I'm crushed. The last time I had an ending like this, I felt so bad I got drunk, drove my $60,000 truck off the road, got arrested and am just now paying off the lawyer who got me out of it. Neither here nor there but it does bring back memories. So now I find myself lost in the same personal agony. And if I drive my truck off the road again, it will be all Jenny's fault.

FBR

Phil-W
11-25-2006, 06:54 PM
That's what you don't get. There is nothing wrong with acting like a stripper in a strip club, nor is there anything wrong with customers enjoying strippers acting like strippers in a strip club. If you're arguing that customers should treat dancers like dates, gentlemen, boyfriends, goddess worshiping bitchboys, friends, or anything but a stripper, then you're being another one of the PLs that just doesn't get it.

Nope, I'm saying you can still enjoy watching a dancer AND treat her with courtesy. I accept they're there to earn a living in an unconventional manner, but that doesn't mean politeness has to go out of the window. I have no problem enjoying the view on the occasions I have dances, but equally I behave toward them as I would like them behave toward me - i.e. with a degree of consideration.


I think the difference between you and I is that while I go to unwind after several months of hard work, you seem to go to try and build long term relationships with them. I don't want that. It's not the place for it. I'm just going for the purpose of having a good time, and then I'm done with it for a few more months. I don't want to be the dancers friends, I don't want to drive them home at night, or get to know them, or what's going on in their lives, it's just not the place to do that.

I never went with the specific intention of befriending dancers - it just happened. Strange thing - we treated each other with reciprocal courtesy and found we liked each other. I enjoy their company, they enjoy mine and we put a smile on each other's faces. The fact they're dancers is not an important factor in our mutual liking. My world's a better place for their friendship, and I'd like to think the reverse is true also.


I've actually made a lot of friends in the club.. and im not talking dancers. I've become friends with a lot of customers. When a customer treats me like a humane being rather then a stripper I tend to treat them a lot better then I would treat a 'customer'.

My point exactly - if both sides can treat each other with a degree of consideration, then it's more relaxing/fun for both sides. A dancer like Cally is there to earn money, and if she can do in in way that puts a smile on her face as well as lets her meet her financial goals then good luck to her.

Bet the guys that treat her well walk out of the club with a better feeling than the ones that treat her like a 'mere stripper'. They've spent their money and had an enjoyable time, not just felt they're $20 to Cally.


What I think is actually kind of interesting is the apparently shared supposition that the proper way or the standard way to treat a stripper is badly. I mean why are we not assuming that being treated like a stripper is to be treated with courtesy and respect (within the confines of a professional relationship, of course).

As Jenny says it's a professional relationship, and it would be foolish to lose sight of that. She's there to earn and anyone who has a dance from her is there to indulge their curiosity about what's under the dress. But she's also a person, and the fact she takes her clothes off to earn a living does not disqualify her from the expectation of being treated with basic politeness.

Even if I look at it from a self-interested purely customer POV, it's still in my interests to treat Jenny well, because if I do so, she's more likely to give me a better dance than if I treat her badly.


Just remember boys, many of these girls are young and immature. Its what most customers demand. After all, that lack of inhibition and tightly contracted gluteal mass that remind you of your own lost youths and dull lives. With that comes the observation that some of these girls are only now figuring you out.

It's a steep learning curve for a new dancer, and I think a lot depends on the age they start. A dancer starting at 24/25 is generally more mature and mentallly tougher than one starting at 18, and probably better able to cope with the stresses of the job.

I think it also depends on whether they're lucky enough to find a more experienced dancer to 'mentor' them - after all, experience is better taught than learned the hard way.

That said, I do feel traces of concern when I see a young and inexperienced dancer being soured by the environment. Bad cases of being embittered and permanently put off men/relationships do happen, but I believe they're fortunately fairly rare.

Phil.

FBR
11-25-2006, 07:30 PM
I sort of believe it. But him hitting a pole sounds so final. I mean all I did was drift off the edge of the road, drive down a steep embankment, knock down a few saplings and come to a grinding halt in a creek. But if the other dude tee boned a pole...ugh. Hope he's OK now.

FBR

Katrine
11-25-2006, 08:54 PM
I think it also depends on whether they're lucky enough to find a more experienced dancer to 'mentor' them - after all, experience is better taught than learned the hard way.

Phil.

Huh, what's that? Its pretty rare to find a "mentor" in the clubs. Keep in mind we are competitors. The older women who are still in the game seldomly want to encourage more pert young whippersnappers to take their money.

So Phil, do the girls you drive around at least give you petrol money or buy you breakfast for your troubles? I mean, have you ever tabulated the amount of money you spend driving them around the city?

Phil-W
11-26-2006, 07:15 AM
Huh, what's that? Its pretty rare to find a "mentor" in the clubs. Keep in mind we are competitors. The older women who are still in the game seldomly want to encourage more pert young whippersnappers to take their money.

I didn't say older, I said more experienced. It might be a case of a dancer who's been working for 12 months taking someone under her wing and 'saying watch that venue, the owner's a sleazeball', or "most customers tell you that - it's generally BS".

Yes, you are competing with other dancers, but that doesn't mean it's got to be a cut-throat business. Most dancers I know do extend some courtesies to each other, particularly when it doesn't affect their earnings.


So Phil, do the girls you drive around at least give you petrol money or buy you breakfast for your troubles? I mean, have you ever tabulated the amount of money you spend driving them around the city?

You're looking at it the wrong way Katrine - as if it's a dancer/customer relationship or we're trying to make money out of each other. To answer your specific questions; no I won't accept petrol money from them because they're friends and I help them purely for that reason. Yes, they will buy me breakfast/supper from time to time. I'll accept the meal because it's their way of saying thanks for helping me out. (The mirror image of me not wanting money for petrol).

More generally, they could make more money out of me by keeping within the dancer/customer framework and asking for private dances that they ever save from getting lifts. If I do meet them at a venue, generally towards the end of their shifts, then I neither tip nor watch them (any more than they want to collect from me, or have me pay attention). Looked at in purely financial terms, they're probably out of pocket from knowing me.

I'm fully aware that the situation these dancers and I have drifted into is an unusual one, but the focus is genuinely one of friendship and the interest in each other is outside of work. I'll give them lifts because it's convenient for them but they/I tend to prefer meeting socially rather than at work (and yes, we split costs when having a drink together etc.)

Phil.

xdamage
11-26-2006, 09:05 AM
What I think is actually kind of interesting is the apparently shared supposition that the proper way or the standard way to treat a stripper is badly. I mean why are we not assuming that being treated like a stripper is to be treated with courtesy and respect (within the confines of a professional relationship, of course). I mean I can easily and conveniently treat my waitress like a waitress AND a human being. Simultaneously.

Exactly, they are not mutually exclusive.

If you're handing a girl money in a club to take off her clothes, grind on your lap, touch you or vice versa, etc., you're treating them like a stripper (or if anyone prefers the euphemism, and exotic dancer ). None of which means you have to violate their limits, or be rude, or anything else, but every customer here (perhaps with the exception of Phil?) treats strippers like strippers in strip clubs (by the act of paying $$ for it).

xdamage
11-26-2006, 09:59 AM
Nope, I'm saying you can still enjoy watching a dancer AND treat her with courtesy. I accept they're there to earn a living in an unconventional manner, but that doesn't mean politeness has to go out of the window. I have no problem enjoying the view on the occasions I have dances, but equally I behave toward them as I would like them behave toward me - i.e. with a degree of consideration.


I never said anything about courtesy or lack of. Look up the definition of stripper. There is nothing in there about courtesy. Treating a girl like a stripper means giving her money to take off her clothes, or to dance erotically while you watch (or touch in the case of lap dances). You can do that with (or without) trying to be their friend, with (or without) trying to impress them, with (or without) trying to be a gentleman.

In fact, I was just out at a bar last night where I spent the night getting drunk and met several women, and had to pass on an offer to go home with an attractive brunette (I'm sure my SO wouldn't have approved ;)) Now in that setting I was the complete gentleman. I also didn't offer any of the women money to take off their clothes, or grind on my lap. And likewise, none of them came up to me and offered to take off their clothes for money, or offered to grind on my lap for $$s. See that's the place to do that - there is no exchange of money though, and not a single woman was treated like a stripper.

Now I'm not saying I've never hung out in a strip club and treated it like a bar; I have, and I've spent some nights doing nothing but hanging out getting drunk with strippers. But I am saying that the girls are fundamentally there to work in a SC, while they are fundamentally there to relax and have a good time in bar. Customers though often lose sight of that or never really understand it to begin with - they go in treating it like a bar scene and behave as they would in a bar in hopes of picking up on a woman (or becoming her friend, so he can see her OTC).

And I think a lot of new dancers lose sight of the difference too. Oh not completely, but they are fuzzy on the boundaries themselves (and there really is no absolute rule book anyway) They forget it's a job, and become offended when a customer turns them down, or doesn't buy them a drink, or becomes so involved in the stripping his "gentlemen" behaviors give way to become a little rowdy or pirate like. But then it's not a pickup bar or mall or restaurant, it's a strip club where the product that's on sale is nudity and touching. It's abnormal environment, so it's to be expected that customers aren't going to follow all the same social conventions as they do OTC (just like the stripping is not a standard social convention OTC).

mr_punk
11-26-2006, 04:00 PM
When a customer treats me like a humane being rather then a stripper I tend to treat them a lot better then I would treat a 'customer'.until he starts staring at you adoringly and arranging your hair as if your head is sitting on his mantle.

Just remember boys, many of these girls are young and immature.flaky? hey, that's my line.

Its what most customers demand. After all, that lack of inhibition and tightly contracted gluteal mass that remind you of your own lost youths and dull lives.true, but youth isn't everything. in fact, it's a one-trick pony. a young girl's strength isn't in her experience, dances and personality. her strength mostly lies in looking young-n-fresh. also, keeping her trap shut and being accommodating goes a long way as well. the enamored, middle-aged perverts will usually fill in the gaps (ie:"she seems mature and intelligent for her age"...LOL).

"Oh my! He wants to do what with me where? G-ROOOOOS!!!!" So what, they're new strippers, they'll get jaded and used to it like the rest of us.hopefully, long before they stop looking young-n-fresh.

Hence, the same youthful energy associated with stripping keeps women believing its a "girl power" thing. It really isn't, we're actually competitors. Its false wrapper strippers place themselves into to keep from tearing out each other 's throats.too bad the "girl power" thing doesn't work on eyeballs.

Casual Observer
11-26-2006, 07:43 PM
After all, that lack of inhibition and tightly contracted gluteal mass that remind you of your own lost youths and dull lives.

Sounds like someone's projecting here.

Katrine
11-26-2006, 09:30 PM
Sounds like someone's projecting here.

WTF am I projecting? My glutes are still tight and my life is probably far more exciting than yours. I am projecting for the average pervo. CasualMan, dajlink, you are an extroardinary pervert, and thus excluded from this group. :P

evan_essence
11-26-2006, 09:36 PM
your argument is fucked because you think this is SW. it's not SW.Well, sorta. Truth is, SCJ is SW's bitch. See what that URL says up there in your browser's command line? :rotfl:

-Ev

xdamage
11-27-2006, 09:51 AM
It's a steep learning curve for a new dancer...


And Kat said it like this "Just remember boys, many of these girls are young and immature. "

And that was exactly my point about the majority of dancers acting like PLs in their own right at the start of their careers. Oh sure they grow out of it, so do experienced customers.



That said, I do feel traces of concern when I see a young and inexperienced dancer being soured by the environment. Bad cases of being embittered and permanently put off men/relationships do happen, but I believe they're fortunately fairly rare.
Phil.

And if it wasn't rare? If it was say true 20% of the time (just to pick a number out of thin air since we have no controlled studies), would it matter? Would any of us stop going? Would any dancers stop dancing? I do share the same traces of concern, or I would for a woman that I thought of as a friend or someone close, but people make the choices they are going to make (and whether or not they take responsibility for their choices is a luxury but not necessary), and I don't know of any dancer you could talk out of dancing just because it contributed her growing up being soured or embittered about men.

Katrine
11-27-2006, 11:39 AM
It isn't rare. In fact, quite the opposite. Almost every dancer I know at some point develops issues with men and relationships. At first, its men and sex, as consequence to the sticker shock. In addition, few relationships can withstand the female stripping, ESPECIALLY when its a young girl with a young insecure boyfriend.

But most of us make it out alive, and somewhat intact. I've quit and gone back many times over the years, and I'm much more normal about dating and men the longer I've been out.....

xdamage
11-27-2006, 11:53 AM
It isn't rare. In fact, quite the opposite.

Now on this I'll definitely trust Kat's judgement (this is the exactly the kind of thing a dancer knows better then any customer).

Now Katrine, let me ask you this... So on the one hand part of me feels some pangs of guilt over visiting clubs when I know it has this negative impact on women. On the other hand I realized long ago I can't fix all of the world's issues and put it out of my mind while I'm there (and in an ironic twist, if none of us guys went because of that, there'd be no clubs). And it's for this reason I also do behave myself ITCs because there is no way to know in advance which stripper is going to take things personally and which can laugh it off and just view it as business. So what do you make of that conflict of interest?

p.s. I should add I'm comfortable with leaving internals conflicts unresolved, as long as I'm aware that the conflict of interests exists.

kdogg247
11-27-2006, 12:19 PM
I feel a little guilty, too, but I think I'll get over it. }:D

Jenny
11-27-2006, 12:25 PM
^^^
I would say that guilt is inappropriate unless you are doing something particularly heinous (in which case I would recommend that you don't do it rather than feel guilty about doing it) or have specific knowledge about the individual that would give rise to it (in which case I would still recommend that you don't do it rather than sit around feeling guilty about it). Outside of those particular scenarios I would say that you are in the "let adults be adults and they probably know best how to govern their behaviour" zone.

kdogg247
11-27-2006, 12:52 PM
I do really heinous stuff. :)

Jenny
11-27-2006, 12:55 PM
I should have known.

doc-catfish
11-27-2006, 01:13 PM
I didn't make her take up the profession. She didn't lure me into taking up the hobby.

No time for guilty feelings, keep grinding my dear. Yeah baby, just like that.

Is that too heinous? :P

Jenny
11-27-2006, 01:14 PM
I'm sorry are you asking me?

No. I think that is delightful.

xdamage
11-27-2006, 02:16 PM
I didn't make her take up the profession. She didn't lure me into taking up the hobby.
No time for guilty feelings, keep grinding my dear. Yeah baby, just like that.


Sure, and of course we all resolve conflicts of interest by acting one way or the other. But the interesting part is some people seem to need to completely put the conflict out of mind, while I'm much more comfortable with keeping an awareness of the conflict, while still choosing. But if Kat's right regarding "Almost every dancer I know at some point develops issues with men and relationships. " (and I believe her that's been her experience having been in the business for quite a while) that suggests to me that a lot of the comments here along the lines of "it's just a job" are flawed because the comments often imply there is no difference between the impact on the person doing this job vs doing some other job. Now all jobs have some impact on people, but it's relatively few jobs that you could say such a high percentage of the employees (or contractors) end up having relationship/sex issues as a result.

FBR
11-27-2006, 04:28 PM
^^^
Based on what you read upstairs, one could assume that a large percentage of strippers have fucked up relationships with their men. Or maybe the ones that do tend to post more. Who knows. But anyway, it does lead one to wonder whether they were already predisposed towards relationships issues prior to stripping or whether said problems arose as a byproduct of entering the trade.

FBR

Phil-W
11-27-2006, 04:35 PM
It isn't rare. In fact, quite the opposite. Almost every dancer I know at some point develops issues with men and relationships. At first, its men and sex, as consequence to the sticker shock. In addition, few relationships can withstand the female stripping, ESPECIALLY when its a young girl with a young insecure boyfriend.

I can't make a direct comparison, because I've not been in US strip venues (I live in the UK) but I'll assume the ethos, pressures etc are broadly comparable. I'd also have to say there might be an element of selection in that we talk to people we like, therefore the dancers I get on with tend to share the same broad values as I do.

That caveat aside, many dancers I know do sustain stable relationships. When they do break down (as they do from time to time) it appears to be more events outside of work than directly related to the fact that the girl's a dancer. I'd also have to say that in the relationships that last the bf/husband has no involvement in the dancing side of things.

Katrine's point about young girls is well taken - we all of us grow wiser with the years, and maybe a dancer of 25 - 30 with a broader outlook on life has learnt to smile wryly rather that feel the stresses she might have done at 20 or 21.

Are dancers affected by the job? I'd have to say yes. At one time or another (because I'm a sympathetic and discrete listener) I've had varying dancers pour out their angst to me. Has it permanently affected them? IMHO not seriously - in that they're wise enough to see that they're life outside dancing is the only arena where they should worrry about being judged.

Could I name dancers who have been adversely affected by the job? Yes, a small minority are - generally by becoming extremely cynical about men. Other develop drug or drink problems. Is it all attributable to stripping? That I'm less sure about, in that some of the girls have brought their personal problems into the job with them.

I'd also point the finger slightly at venues in terms of preventing dancers developing problems - they have a duty of care towards the girls that work there. Unfotunately all too often the need to make a profit means they turn a blind eye to practices that they should be stopping.


I would say that guilt is inappropriate unless you are doing something particularly heinous (in which case I would recommend that you don't do it rather than feel guilty about doing it).

With which comment I would wholeheartedly agree - if you treat someone decently, then any issues a dancer might have are not directly realted to your conduct - and if you can't treat someone decently, you're a poor specimen of humanity.

Phil.

Jenny
11-27-2006, 04:39 PM
I would say that you could look at a couple of things:
a) that a lot of women have relationship problems. I mean, why do you think anyone, anywhere buys "The Rules"? Further that a lot of strippers are very young women. Nuff said.
b) a lot of strippers work nights and are tired and anti-social during the day. So who do you think they tend to meet?
Not to say that all customers suck, but a certain kind of customer is the customer that goes to a strip club looking for a girlfriend.
Correlation doesn't mean causal factor.

xdamage
11-27-2006, 05:16 PM
^^^
Based on what you read upstairs, one could assume that a large percentage of strippers have fucked up relationships with their men. Or maybe the ones that do tend to post more. Who knows. But anyway, it does lead one to wonder whether they were already predisposed towards relationships issues prior to stripping or whether said problems arose as a byproduct of entering the trade.

FBR

Yea, agreed, it's hard to say which comes first. Still, interesting food for thought.

FBR
11-27-2006, 05:29 PM
As doc so eloquently put


No time for guilty feelings, keep grinding my dear. Yeah baby, just like that.

it should be about the exchange of funds for pleasure. But as sometimes happens when you've been clubbing, maybe too long I dunno, you start to thnk about the component parts rather than appreciate the whole. Eh, maybe its just an old guy jaded thing. Thankfully I still have fun most of the time.

FBR

Katrine
11-27-2006, 09:03 PM
^^^
Based on what you read upstairs, one could assume that a large percentage of strippers have fucked up relationships with their men. Or maybe the ones that do tend to post more. Who knows.

FBR
I wasn't even thinking of the pinkies, I was thinking of real life. Upstairs, I don't even know if its a man or a woman posting. In my club years, you can't ignore what's going on around you are you put on your makeup.

As I mentioned before, the change is temporal. Xdamage, for instance, I don't see as causing strife in the SC. Although you are a bit ornery down here.

Also, Jenny has a point, correlation is not causation. For instance, stripping didn't destroy my 3 year relationship, drugs did. Now, did stripping allow me easy access to drugs and plenty of time to do them? Yes. Did I use them with coworkers and during the course of work. Only a handful of times. Rather, I was doing it them with other MBA's, cops, attorneys, engineers, etc.... But that's just me, not statistically significant.

Btw, I've met a lot of happy couples throughout my stripping years. Both parties were pretty messed up, lol......

FBR
11-27-2006, 09:26 PM
Kat LOL well since you are are now jonesin for real world rewards as you take advantage of your education selling stocks, bonds, investment advise etc you are now viewing those happily messed up couples as saturday night live entertainment. Fun to watch but who wants to be there.

X is a good contributor down here...but ornery? To me Blue ornery is Punk times the square root of JZ minus FBR plus gameover.

FBR

Casual Observer
11-27-2006, 09:31 PM
WTF am I projecting? My glutes are still tight and my life is probably far more exciting than yours.

I don't doubt either point for a second, Kat. ;) I think my point is more that the expectations of the average SC perv are generally in line with the expectations for the average stripper, in that both ends of the SC business--patrons and providers--seem to take an equally proportionate toll on their lives when badly managed, which isn't very hard to do.

Despite your personal demons borne through or as a result of the business, Kat, you've managed to restore a semblance of normalcy and social function to your life; just as with many (most?) PLs/RILs, a preponderance of dancers in your situation simply do not. Ever.

xdamage
11-28-2006, 10:37 AM
a) that a lot of women have relationship problems. ... Further that a lot of strippers are very young women. Nuff said.

b) a lot of strippers work nights and are tired and anti-social during the day.

Not to say that all customers suck, but a certain kind of customer is the customer that goes to a strip club looking for a girlfriend.

Correlation doesn't mean causal factor.

True, but OTOH it's all too easy to fall into a trap whereby it's argued that people are shaped by their environment (when it suits our arguments), while on the other hand argue the environment is not factor (when it doesn't suit our arguments). For most people I'd say an 8hr a day job (plus time they spend thinking about, and preparing for the job before and after work represents a considerable portion of their environment (subtract 8hrs for sleep, and it can easily end up that they spend at least half their time involved in their work directly or indirectly).

The truth may lie in the middle area as well, some tendency for younger women to bring their problems with them, plus the environment impacts on their thinking. They are not mutually exclusive factors, and may well be complimentary. How might the same women end up if she worked in an environment that required they more directly cooperate with other men (and women) to complete tasks? Or compete with other men and women for promotions? Or work in an asexual job that focuses on something (anything) that isn't intricately tied up with how men and women interact with each other in sexual ways? There are all kinds of possible environments that would feed into a young woman's beliefs about relationships and sex in other ways.

And really in my limited experience of two careers, I don't know anyone that spends several years in a line of work that doesn't modify their personality and thinking patterns in some ways as a result.

p.s. and of course none of what I just wrote is meant to say that strippers don't have to deal with some really fucked up males who end up in SCs because they are unable to cope with relationships or women OTC.

lunchbox
11-28-2006, 12:19 PM
X is a good contributor down here...but ornery? To me Blue ornery is Punk times the square root of JZ minus FBR plus gameover.
punk((JZ - (FBR + GO))^(1/2))

Fuck it, I jerked off last night to a new pornstar to get me out of my funk. Her name was Teagan Presley, I don't kow how I hadn't seen this girl before. Quite the cutie, good anal, nice flexibility. It was so good I jerked off in the shower this morning thinking about jerking off to her last night.

Phil-W
11-28-2006, 01:48 PM
I would say that you could look at a couple of things:
a) that a lot of women have relationship problems. I mean, why do you think anyone, anywhere buys "The Rules"? Further that a lot of strippers are very young women. Nuff said.

It may be down to environment - I live just outside London (UK). I'll have a guess that the average age of the dancer working the pub (as opposed to the lap dance club) circuit is about 25/26. There are some younger dancers about, but most seem to be in the age bracket I've mentioned. Quite a few are from abroad and have a wider perspective on life that somone who's just lived in the UK.

The dancers I do see having troubles tend to be older and quite a few years in the job. One cause is coke - some of them seem to pick up ever growing habits.

Another problem is age; if they've been dancing since they're 18 and they see the end of their career only a few years off, they often end up workng very high mileage venues (including extras) to earn as much money as possible in the time available and get stressed accordingly.


b) a lot of strippers work nights and are tired and anti-social during the day. So who do you think they tend to meet? Not to say that all customers suck, but a certain kind of customer is the customer that goes to a strip club looking for a girlfriend.

Depends how sensible the dancers are - on the pub circuit there are a fair number of lunch time sessions, so not every night is a late one. I think the problem can be the number of bookings, and not the time. Most dancers I know get very stressed if they overdo the number of bookings, and most have the good sense to take a few days off it they do.

And on the subject of dancers bf's, etc - the one I know who have stable relationships met their bf's away from work, and keep them well away from it. The small number that do start relationships with guys they met ITC do, I agree, often end up with fuckwits.

I think the general theme of this conversation was - does dancing give a significant percentage of dancers long term pyschological problems?

My answer would be, from my experience no. However, the London strip pub scene is one where most dancers earn a reasonable (but not great) income without an undue degree of stress.

On my very rare excursions into London lap dance clubs, I got the impression that the stress levels were a lot higher - too many girls chasing too few customers - and hence the pyschological pressures were higher. I think also the mileage levels may have been a bit higher - which again not all girls handle well.

In which case you might be able to correlate the number of girls who have problems with the enviroment they work in: high stress/high mileage environments possibly leading to a higher level of dancers with problems.

Phil.

xdamage
11-28-2006, 02:21 PM
Another problem is age; if they've been dancing since they're 18 and they see the end of their career only a few years off, they often end up workng very high mileage venues (including extras) to earn as much money as possible in the time available and get stressed accordingly.


There could be something to that. There are some careers that are time limited, including most sports. Eventually older players have to face facts that it's a dead end and move on. Of course a famous person with a notable sports career might have some job opportunities based on their notoriety, but that's probably not something a stripper can depend on. But the big difference is that not all of these careers provide a "high mileage" end game option as a way to make more money while one can. That may tend to cause a person in those other career lines to plan earlier for the inevitable. While I have met strippers that have kept going into their early 40s, that's a long shot, and with people living longer then ever, most people will end up working another 25-30 years (to 65-70). Possibly a good looking woman has the marry rich option later in life, but even that option becomes less likely the older she gets.

The problem is money is like crack... it's addicting, and hard to imagine doing something else that pays less once you have a life style going that depends on your current income level.