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Bridgette
09-07-2006, 09:30 AM
I just read the part of my post about what I wouldn't do for my body if I weren't a stripper and it kinda sounds like I'd let myself go like some hag. That is soooo not me. I of course would keep myself attractive but not in the overdone way I do for stripperland. I'm a low-maintenance chic at heart :P

xdamage
09-07-2006, 09:51 AM
As far as the house fees being an incentive for the girls to get off their duffs and work: It's not. They either bring that motivation with them or they never have it, largely because of this system.


Sure, that's true of employees and contractors in all fields. Some are motivated to work, some aren't.

But in other fields employees and contractors expect their employeers to make demands on them. With out the house fees, what demands do you think should be made on strippers? Mgmt needs some minimum expected return against which to fire a girl that isn't performing. The house fees are easy to manage. What is your alternative (other then they should just take less money which is not going to happen).



Mgmt doesn't give a fuck if the girls don't actually work, as long as they come up with their fees. So the club only gets the minimum money while the girls piss off paying customers and send them packing with wallets still full - wallets that would've provided more profit for the girl(s) AND club via bar sales and maybe dance/vip cuts. Now, how much business sense does that make??


I can only imagine what would be going on the pink side of mgmt started firing girls that don't perform, vs just taking it out up front as a door fee, but yea.



My comments regarding mgmt greed were simply in response to the "dancers don't invest shit" and "they should be thankful to those clubowners for letting them have a place to work" type statements and the implication that owners actually NEED our house fees to make a profit. Please. THEY are in business because of US. Just as much as we are because of them. And no, they don't NEED our house fees to make a profit - they didn't before.


Again, this is true of every employee/employeer relationship. Employees need employeers and vice versa, but it doesn't change the fact that the employeer invests more, has a greater risk, and therefore has a greater share of the rewareds.

As for not "needing" the house fees to make profit. /shrug. Times change, and so business models. When strippers were rare you got a better deal. As the stigma decreases and they become more common, a lot are going to make a smaller share of the profits. Supply and demand. Happens in all industries.

What I find amazing though is an attitude that sounds like you strippers should be able to use the club owners facilities to make money, and have no obligations whatsoever to the club owner to make the club money. I find that amazing because in every other business people just naturally assume they have responsibilities of performance to the employeer.



They only want them because they're greedy fucks - and they get away with it because of the MTV mentality breeding herds of naive new wannabe strippers daily. IF they actually do need our house fees to turn a profit then it's a shit club that ought to be shut down ::)


/shrug - like I said, I don't see any major difference in greed level between this situation and so many other employeer/employee relationships where the employeer takes a bigger share of the profits. Now some businesses pass back that money to their employees in the form of greater salaries, or incentive stock or bonuses if the company makes more money, but your not a salaried worker. Nor are you under demands to improve performance. Nor does your improved performance put more money back into the pockets of the employeer.



Add: To answer your questions about whether I'd make similar investments I make to my looks/body if I weren't a stripper: The answer is NO, not even close. I wouldn't spend $200/month on a hairstyle at the salon. I'd spend $30 and do it at home. Nor would I spend as much on outfits (I don't know what cheapass shitty costumes you're looking at, but mine ain't cheap and I've got a ton of them), makeup (I wear makeup OTC maybe twice a month), shoes (my office shoes never wore out in 2 months like my stripper shoes do, and I could get away with wearing the same pair everyday to the office, unlike my stripper stuff). I would not work out as much. Or do my nails as often. Or shave half my friggin body daily. Or spend $100/month on vitamins and supplements to fight off the cold/flu and whatever else customers blow/spray in my face, and to deal with my fucked up knees and hips that sound like rice krispies when I bend.


Sure, I also wouldn't buy as many new suits, shirts, or shoes or shoe polish or get my hair cut as often, etc. if my job didn't require it. But I do understand your point, there are expenses to being a stripper. My point was simply that there are expenses to being in most lines of work and a lot of those expenses you'd have anyway. Like other people in other jobs, some spend more on their appearance then others.



Finally, regarding that "no investment" we make. I just did a quick add, and I've paid out close to $250,000 in house fees and tipouts over my career. That's a quarter of a million dollars in fees to the clubs alone.


I just did a quick calculation. If you worked 365 days a year with no breaks, you would have had to pay out about $700 a day in house fees. Obviously you didn't work that many days, so lets say you spent that over 10 years, so made the club about $25,000 a year in house fees. If you worked 20 years that would be closer to $12,500 a year.

Are you aware that employees and contractors in other fields are expected to make money for their employeer? I'm being sarcastic, but that's only because you said fuck off below ;)

That's the whole point of why the employee you! Or why they contract with you, to make the employeer money! Making the employeer $12,500 or $25,000 a year doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. You make it sound like it was your money, given to them, while in other businesses everyone else gets that when they sell that they are expected to give a cut (often a large one) to their employeer.

Again, it sounds to me like an attitutude of entitelement to work at the owners club without having any obligations to the owner. In every other business people realize they have obligations to their employeer.




So fuck off with your reasoning that owners make all the investment. They only invest it up front (cuz they sure don't put it back into the facility for maintenance ::)), and then take it out of our asses indefinitely.

Well, I thought it was the blue site, and not the pink site or the "purple" site. I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that the whole point was to have a blue side viewpoint. And I'm pretty sure plenty of others also see this viewpoint. What's the value then in posting on the blue side, knowing your going to get an opposing viewpoint, and ending it with "fuck off?"

xdamage
09-07-2006, 10:02 AM
I just read the part of my post about what I wouldn't do for my body if I weren't a stripper and it kinda sounds like I'd let myself go like some hag. That is soooo not me. I of course would keep myself attractive but not in the overdone way I do for stripperland. I'm a low-maintenance chic at heart :P

Okay, well reasonably you probably wouldn't shave/wax as often, you probably wouldn't spend as much on your hair, and you probably wouldn't work out as much, but you'd still work out some like most of us. Vitamins? I don't know. If they are helpful seems like something you'd want to do anyway. I spend my fair shair on vitamins. That all makes sense.

My whole point though is that we all have to invest some of what we make to keep on working. It varies of course, but we do.

And that we all are hired for the purpose of making money for our employeers ultimately. There are different business models that can be used, but in the end the employeers hires or contracts people to make the employeer money. We don't get to use the employeers facilities strictly to make money for us. The amount of compensation we make is, in part, related to supply and demand. If there is a high demand for our skills, we get a better deal. If there is a low demand, we get a poorer deal.

In many ways I think strippers are simply seeing what happens as the stigma associated with stripping eases off. More girls entering the market, more clubs, less demand, a poorer deal.

Bridgette
09-07-2006, 11:02 AM
First off I would appreciate if you stop talking down to me as if I'm some dumbass or little kid. Your tone is very condescending and annoying. I am well aware of the way things work in business and economics, having studied them in college and having worked in business both as an employee AND as a regular business owner before I ever danced. You are not making any "smart" points with me :P


But in other fields employees and contractors expect their employeers to make demands on them. With out the house feeds, what demands do you think should be made on strippers?Put out or get out, like I worked with before. We had this ON TOP of house fees. Because the club (and everyone else) makes MORE money when the girls actually get off their asses and sell. Instead of hiring 2-3 times the number of girls needed, just hire an appropriate number of GOOD ones and make them sell. Not only will this generate more profit for all involved (not for the other girls who get left out, but so what? put out or get out) in the short term, but stands to reason it would KEEP profit coming for the longer term as well. Makes perfect business sense to me.




I can only imagine what would be going on the pink side of mgmt started firing girls that don't perform, vs just taking it out up front as a door fee, but yea.Who cares??? Do I give a shit if 2/3 of the wannabes in this industry get kicked out tomorrow and forced to find a new way to slag off of others? NO! How's that for blue?



Again, this is true of every employee/employeer relationship. Employees need employeers and vice versa, but it doesn't change the fact that the employeer invests more, has a greater risk, and therefore has a greater share of the rewareds.Do you really think most owners, INDIVIDUALLY, have invested more in the last 10 years than I've paid? I would say not. Take 3 guys with $250k each and you've got a strip club - a decent one even. Then watch them take ALL the money out of it for the next 10 years, put NOTHING back into it, and sell it because it's no longer making money. The point is not whether I or any dancer "deserves" to gain as much as the owners. The POINT is that we DO invest in this business whether you can admit it or not. One would think you ARE an owner from the way you write ::)


As for not "needing" the house fees to make profit. /shrug. Times change, and so business models. When strippers were rare you got a better deal. As the stigma decreases and they become more common, a lot are going to make a smaller share of the profits. Supply and demand. Happens in all industries.Yes daddy. I understand those basic economic principles. I also understand when it's crossed over from merely following and reacting to market trends, and taking advantage of those who can't do anything about it in order to extract as much from them as possible while giving them the least incentive or benefit. Other industries are doing the same thing as well. Doesn't make it anymore right or any less a shitty thing to do. And what happens when businesses fuck over their workers too much? Well there is usually some kind of backlash. With dancers, I submit that part of this dancer laziness is a backlash. And what happens when the workers stop performing? Customers stop buying. Which means the business loses money. Bad for all. It rots from the top down.


What I find amazing though is an attitude that sounds like you strippers should be able to use the club owners facilities to make money, and have no obligations whatsoever to the club owner to make the club money. I find that amazing because in every other business people just naturally assume they have responsibilities of performance to the employeer.See, this is where you're getting it wrong. We are NOT employees. When they pay us, we will have responsibility to them. When they provide us with basic employee benefits like, god forbid, workers comp, we will have responsibility to them. Since we pay them for the privilige of using their facilities, I reckon our responsibilities to them stopped a long time ago. I know alot pretty much ALL dancers feel this way.




/shrug - like I said, I don't see any major difference in greed level between this situation and so many other employeer/employee relationships where the employeer takes a bigger share of the profits. Now some businesses pass back that money to their employees in the form of greater salaries, or incentive stock or bonuses if the company makes more money, but your not a salaried worker. Nor are you under demands to improve performance. Nor does your improved performance put more money back into the pockets of the employeer. Ooooh but it does. Every time I sell a VIP the club gets a cut. Every time a customer comes to see ME, the club gets a cut. Every time a customer buys me a drink or that ridiculously overpriced champagne, the club gets ALL the money. Every time I sell a dance, part of it does back to the club in the form of tipouts to cover THEIR employees' wages. When I make more money, the club makes more money. So damn right they have an incentive to ensure the girls improve performance. Of course they're usually too coked up or whatnot to realize.




Sure, I also wouldn't buy as many new suits, shirts, or shoes or shoe polish or get my hair cut as often, etc. if my job didn't require it. But I do understand your point, there are expenses to being a stripper. My point was simply that there are expenses to being in most lines of work and a lot of those expenses you'd have anyway. Like other people in other jobs, some spend more on their appearance then others. My point was that there are MORE expenses to my being a stripper than to my working in an office. I have the suits, pantyhose and the business shoes, and the hair utensils to put my hair in office-appropriate styles. I also have the stripper outfits, shoes, makeup, nail polish, extra razors, EXCEDRIN, etc - and the stripper stuff cost me alot more. Don't forget I was working in an office until recently. I know exactly how much more I spend on maintenance as a stripper than as Sally Office Manager. What exactly was your point again? OH, that strippers don't make any investment. Wrong.




I just did a quick calculation. If you worked 356 days a year with no breaks, you would have had to pay out about $700 a day in house fees. Obviously you didn't work that many days, so lets say you spent that over 10 years. And you'd be right. I never said it was one year, duh. It's pretty common knowledge I've been stripping 11 years total, subtract 1 for miscellaneous time off here and there. Why did you assume it was only 1 year???


Are you aware that employees and contractors in other fields are expected to make money for their employeer? I'm being sarcastic, but that's only because you said fuck off below They do??? I'm shocked!!!


That's the whole point of why the employee you! Or why they contract with you, to make the employeer money! Making the employeer $25,000 a year doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. You make it sound like it was your money, given to them, while in other businesses everyone else gets that when they sell that they are expected to give a cut (often a large one) to their employeer. Please, let's just get this straight. They don't employ me. They don't "employee" me either - that's not even a correct usage of the word :P For the record, because it appears you're not too familiar with me, I have said around here and pink many times that I have no problem paying to work. I understand that it's a business relationship and as such, a give and take. I also understand that over the years it's become MUCH more take with practically no give. Alot of other girls understand that too - hence, contributing to their lack of desire to do anything that might benefit the club. The clubs have created what amounts to an adversarial relationship between Us and Them. They want to get as much of the customers' money as possible AND make us pay as much as they can get away with too. If they could get away with it, we'd all be stripping for free while the clubs took ALL the money. So again, the girls realize this and no longer have any desire to do anything that might benefit the club - and they resign themselves to making shit money in the process. I don't agree with it, but I can understand how some of them get to that. Workers in any business react the same way when they feel they're being fucked over.


Again, it sounds to me like an attitutude of entitelement to work at the owners club without having any obligations to the owner. In every other business people realize they have obligations to their employeer. Yeah, again! See my previous comments above regarding how I feel about paying to work. I see it as payment for use of facilities, like a hairdresser, etc. It would be NICE if the clubs would treat the business like a salon! Put some of the money back into the facility to keep it a desirable place for customers to go. Spend a little on marketing to keep customers interested, both new and 'old'. I get a little tired of paying all that money for facilities only to see it pissed away and 3 years down the road the club is a piece of shit and business has dropped by half or more. After all, isn't this supposed to be partially what I'm paying for??? Hell, in 3 years an owner could've taken just what I paid him and put it into maintenance and the place would still look presentable. Would it be too much to ask them to take a tiny fraction of the fees they extract from us and put it to such constructive use??? Ferfucksake! Again, this is another way they contribute to the animosity between Us and Them.

Bridgette
09-07-2006, 11:11 AM
Well, I thought it was the blue site, and not the pink site or the "purple" site. I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that the whole point was to have a blue side viewpoint. And I'm pretty sure plenty of others also see this viewpoint. What's the value then in posting on the blue side, knowing your going to get an opposing viewpoint, and ending it with "fuck off?"I said "fuck off with your reasoning that we don't invest anything". Rather different than simply "fuck off". I said it that way BECAUSE I'm on blue, and because, apparently, I keep mistakenly thinking the boys over here can handle it. Guess not. So I'll put it the way I would on pink for ya, ok?

"We are not employees. We invest just as much into this business as the owners do in the way of house fees, tipouts and other general maintenance (the clubs' inflated cover/drink charges, dance/vip cuts etc are the equivalent of regular employee sales cuts, so our house fees and tipouts are additional investments which WE contribute to OUR business). The only difference is that the owners invest in one shot up front and we invest little by little over time. The fact that the owners feel more entitled because they happened to put the money up front instead of over time means squat to us and it doesn't diminish the value of our investment or the return we expect to get from it - both in income potential AND in fair treatment. We have not been treated fairly by clubowners, generally speaking, for a long time. We have also suffered diminshed earning potential in large part because of idiotic club policies. As a result, many girls feel they owe the owners nothing and so they do as little as possible that might benefit the clubs. This in turn creates many bad customer experiences, which drive down demand - even the biggest PL has his limit :P So by treating the dancers like crap, the owners have created a situation of ever-declining customer interest and spending, which hurts EVERYONE in the business, including the clubs. One would think that some owner or manager, somewhere, would figure this out and do something about it."

doc-catfish
09-07-2006, 11:13 AM
So, if you're real men, and you want to fix the problem as they say men supposedly do, you'll start bitching and harping to MANAGEMENT about WTF they're doing wrong, rather than sitting on a friggin message board whining about "those stupid girls" :P
I agree with the sentiments B, but club owners have our attention about as keenly as they have yours. I mean, were stupid enough to keep coming in and paying the door cover plus a couple rounds of $6 draft beers after all.

The only way to hurt them realisitically is where it counts, by not coming in anymore. Unfortunately, that hurts the dancers too, even the good ones.

xdamage
09-07-2006, 11:59 AM
First off I would appreciate if you stop talking down to me as if I'm some dumbass or little kid. Your tone is very condescending and annoying.


Agreed, but you're doing exactly the same. Your just not aware of it. I realize we aren't dancers, but that doesn't mean that we customers don't get it. We just don't happen to agree entirely or can see both sides.



Do you really think most owners, INDIVIDUALLY, have invested more in the last 10 years than I've paid? I would say not. Take 3 guys with $250k each and you've got a strip club - a decent one even. Then watch them take ALL the money out of it for the next 10 years, put NOTHING back into it, and sell it because it's no longer making money. The point is not whether I or any dancer "deserves" to gain as much as the owners. The POINT is that we DO invest in this business whether you can admit it or not. One would think you ARE an owner from the way you write ::)


Actually I don't know what they pay for rent, insurance, upkeep, to keep the place cleaned, etc. I do believe you that they can make good money at it.



Yes daddy. I understand those basic economic principles. I also understand when it's crossed over from merely following and reacting to market trends, and taking advantage of those who can't do anything about it in order to extract as much from them as possible while giving them the least incentive or benefit.


How much are your door fees per night?




Other industries are doing the same thing as well. Doesn't make it anymore right or any less a shitty thing to do. And what happens when businesses fuck over their workers too much? Well there is usually some kind of backlash. With dancers, I submit that part of this dancer laziness is a backlash. And what happens when the workers stop performing? Customers stop buying. Which means the business loses money. Bad for all. It rots from the top down.


That outcome won't happen though. There won't be any big backlash, just a slow but sure and steady decline in quality at a lot of clubs, with some new clubs catering to the high end customer.



See, this is where you're getting it wrong. We are NOT employees. When they pay us, we will have responsibility to them. When they provide us with basic employee benefits like, god forbid, workers comp, we will have responsibility to them. Since we pay them for the privilige of using their facilities, I reckon our responsibilities to them stopped a long time ago. I know alot pretty much ALL dancers feel this way.


Yes, I know your not employees. But you are arguing that you shouldn't have to pay house fees either. You are not going to get it both ways, sorry, it won't happen. It's not my fault, I'm just saying what is.

If you use the logic "Since we pay them for the privilige of using their facilities, I reckon our responsibilities to them stopped a long time ago. " then the alternative is don't pay them the housefees, and payup to them in some other ways. But the days of working for the clubs with no responsibility to make the club money are over and done with. That was a different time under a different set of circumstances.



Ooooh but it does. Every time I sell a VIP the club gets a cut. Every time a customer comes to see ME, the club gets a cut. Every time a customer buys me a drink or that ridiculously overpriced champagne, the club gets ALL the money. Every time I sell a dance, part of it does back to the club in the form of tipouts to cover THEIR employees' wages. When I make more money, the club makes more money. So damn right they have an incentive to ensure the girls improve performance. Of course they're usually too coked up or whatnot to realize.


That sounds good to me. Maybe then the clubs should simply make their money in those ways with ONE very important difference. Rather then letting the strippers do whatever they want, and be self motivated, place minimum earning demands on them. Say an average of $100 a night? If they don't make the club at least that much, out they go. Still, that seems like a door fee to me calculated a little differently, but it would work. What doesn't work for the club owners is for strippers to use their facilities indefinitely without some required minimum level of performance.



My point was that there are MORE expenses to my being a stripper than to my working in an office.


True for you. For me we are required to wear fairly expensive clothes, like one suit would cover three dozen costumes, but sure, I'll buy that you have higher expenses then a lot of professions.



And you'd be right. I never said it was one year, duh. It's pretty common knowledge I've been stripping 11 years total, subtract 1 for miscellaneous time off here and there. Why did you assume it was only 1 year???


I did not assume you only worked one year. It's just that when you use a figure like $250K, that has shock value out of context. In context of it's over a period of several years, it has much less shock value. Like if I said I know a realtor that only made $25K a year for broker, you'd probably be thinking, damn what a slacker.





For the record, because it appears you're not too familiar with me, I have said around here and pink many times that I have no problem paying to work. I understand that it's a business relationship and as such, a give and take. I also understand that over the years it's become MUCH more take with practically no give. Alot of other girls understand that too - hence, contributing to their lack of desire to do anything that might benefit the club.


No I don't know you, but this isn't meant to a personal discussion just about you. We're just talking general trends. Sadly while you may be very industrious, we live in a world filled with people that are not.




Yeah, again! See my previous comments above regarding how I feel about paying to work. I see it as payment for use of facilities, like a hairdresser, etc. It would be NICE if the clubs would treat the business like a salon! Put some of the money back into the facility to keep it a desirable place for customers to go. Spend a little on marketing to keep customers interested, both new and 'old'.


Problem is when you say it like that I can't tell if you are for or against house fees, or just against the way the strip club owners use the money in general. But if you were to tell me that strip club owners tend to let the places run down, sure I'd agree with that. It's the nature of the business. They have no long term benefit in investing in their product, or their contractors.


And no I'm not an owner, but I can see clearly what motivates an owner by stepping into his mental shoes. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Trends are what they are. We can talk about them objectively separate from how they affect you personally. Now of course they don't affect me much. They do affect you so sure, I understand you don't entirely like how the industry is turning out, but it's also very predicatable that things would turn out this way. To be quite honest though, I don't see things changing in any way that is better for the strippers on the horizon.

Bridgette
09-07-2006, 12:08 PM
attitutude of entitelement
1) Entitlement. No extra e :P

2) That's the blueballers' favorite slur against pinkies. "Sense of entitlement" this and that. Yall haven't come up with anything better yet?

3) It's a sense of wanting to receive value for our money. Just like you guys, we want to receive some value for the money we pay. We understand that ALL of the money the clubs take in is a direct result of our being there. We also understand that the more we sell and get custies to spend money, the more the club makes via bar sales, vip cuts, dance cuts, cover charges, etc. Those are the clubs' cut of sales WE generate. Our house fees are additional investments we make, theoretically so the club can protect us, provide us a good place to work, market our services, etc. Increasingly, the clubs don't do ANY of that but demand ever-higher fees. All while customers are demanding ever-higher mileage for same or less money (in part due to club policies). So yeah, we might feel like we deserve a litte more for our money than we're getting. Understandably so.

GenWar
09-07-2006, 12:11 PM
QUOTE=doc-catfish:
a couple rounds of $6 draft beers after all.
-------------------------------

Umm...where exactly are the draft beers only $6?

Can you post an address? :P

-gen (*goes back to listening to Eve's radio station*)

xdamage
09-07-2006, 12:14 PM
I said "fuck off with your reasoning that we don't invest anything". Rather different than simply "fuck off". I said it that way BECAUSE I'm on blue, and because, apparently, I keep mistakenly thinking the boys over here can handle it. Guess not. So I'll put it the way I would on pink for ya, ok?


Okay, so it was meant in good fun - no problem.



"We are not employees.


I know.



We invest just as much into this business as the owners do in the way of house fees, tipouts and other general maintenance (the clubs' inflated cover/drink charges, dance/vip cuts etc are the equivalent of regular employee sales cuts, so our house fees and tipouts are additional investments which WE contribute to OUR business). The only difference is that the owners invest in one shot up front and we invest little by little over time. The fact that the owners feel more entitled because they happened to put the money up front instead of over time means squat to us and it doesn't diminish the value of our investment or the return we expect to get from it - both in income potential AND in fair treatment.

See you say you understand business, but then say things like this. What seems entirely crystal clear to me you don't seem to see. One of is missing something.


See to what you said makes all the difference in the world. It's the difference between say walking into a Casino and dropping down $1million bucks and committing yourself to gambling that much on a future roll(s) paying off versus
spending that money little by little over many years while also walking away with winnings (in this analogy, the money you walk away from the stripclub everynight), and leaving anytime you feel that your luck has changed or you find a better investment.

Remember, the owner might be some smuck like most of us who worked hard year after year, saved his money, and then decided to risk it on a future business vs just keeping it. You really have no idea how many years he or she toiled or labored for someone else to raise that money.

Of course he might have earned it illegally, but lets assume for a minute that he/she is just a person like the rest of us who made their money through hard work and saved and invested.

So imagine 10 more years from now you have a nice bankroll saved up, 20 years of work behind you. You could keep it and use it slowly and carefully, or you could plop it down and risk on a business. Hey, you could even invest it in your own club.

If you think it's a sure thing, a sure money maker after expenses, then you should do it. If on the other hand you gamble that the market could go sour, or profits could go sour, or a competitor could enter the market, or the laws could change, etc., you may not recoup your expenses. That's the bigger risk.

And you can't just walk away when you feel like it. You can't just up and leave. And you lose a lot more personal time dealing with club issues during all hours of the day and night, things that the strippers never have to concern themselves with.

I mean really, you make it sound like the club owners have a sure thing going. If so more of us should invest in stripclubs because there are very few sure things, except in hindsight.

azcustomer
09-07-2006, 12:21 PM
See, this is where you're getting it wrong. We are NOT employees. When they pay us, we will have responsibility to them. When they provide us with basic employee benefits like, god forbid, workers comp, we will have responsibility to them. Since we pay them for the privilige of using their facilities, I reckon our responsibilities to them stopped a long time ago. I know alot pretty much ALL dancers feel this way.
These days, most workers are contract workers, fewer and fewer are employees. And what employer would ever give benefits to a hard hustle employee. This is why I never, never make a good salesperson an employee - they are always a contractor. The minute you make them an employee, they start to hustle the employer more than the customer.
[QUOTE=Bridgette]Please, let's just get this straight. They don't employ me. They don't "employee" me either - that's not even a correct usage of the word :P [\QUOTE]
em·ploy http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?employ01.wav=employ%27%29)
Pronunciation: im-'ploi, em-
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English emploien, from Anglo-French empleier, emploier, emplier to entangle, apply, make use of, from Latin implicare to enfold, involve, from in- + plicare to fold -- more at PLY (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ply)
1 a : to make use of (someone or something inactive) <employ a pen for sketching> b : to use (as time) advantageously <a job that employed her skills> c (1) : to use or engage the services of (2) : to provide with a job that pays wages or a salary <a company that employs fifty>
2 : to devote to or direct toward a particular activity or person <employed all her energies to help the poor>
synonym see USE (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/use)
- em·ploy·er noun

Wow, the blues got a fuckoff from Bridgette! (suprise, suprise, suprise!)

Well, all I have to say is: Bite me. ;D

xdamage
09-07-2006, 12:29 PM
1) Entitlement. No extra e :P


Sure.



2) That's the blueballers' favorite slur against pinkies. "Sense of entitlement" this and that. Yall haven't come up with anything better yet?


I have no idea. I haven't been keeping track of what everyone else writes. But if it's happening a lot, maybe it's not just a slur without merit, but a valid trend/sense of how the pink messages are coming across (righ tor wrong)?



Our house fees are additional investments we make, theoretically so the club can protect us, provide us a good place to work, market our services, etc. Increasingly, the clubs don't do ANY of that but demand ever-higher fees. All while customers are demanding ever-higher mileage for same or less money (in part due to club policies). So yeah, we might feel like we deserve a litte more for our money than we're getting. Understandably so.

Sure, I'm sympathetic to that.

But I also have no idea what reasons they give you for the house fees. Bottom line is it sounds like its just guaranteed income for the club, no matter how lazy the dancer is, the club is guaranteed to make some cash off her using their facility. If repeatedly she doesn't make that fee back, chances are she will leave, which is probably a good thing. If on the other hand she is star, she'll make that back and a lot more. It seems like a pretty good self managed system from that point of view. The only other system I can imagine that would work well is for the clubs to take a much more active role in deciding who gets to work and who doesn't. I can foresee many different problems with that, and some dancers would do better for it, many would be poorer for it. Problem is, nobody here or on the pink side is going to make that happen short of you opening your own clubs and making it happen.

Bridgette
09-07-2006, 12:39 PM
Agreed, but you're doing exactly the same. Your just not aware of it. I realize we aren't dancers, but that doesn't mean that we customers don't get it. We just don't happen to agree entirely or can see both sides.You sure you're not just looking in from the outside? Because that's what it looks like to US.




Actually I don't know what they pay for rent, insurance, upkeep, to keep the place cleaned, etc. I do believe you that they can make good money at it.
Totally missed the point. The point is that in 10-11 years, I have invested just as much $$$ into this industry as your average individual owner would in that same time. So from that, we can say that dancers in general invest just as much as owners in general. Your assertion that we invest nothing is completely bogus.




How much are your door fees per night?
$120 + $10 from every "dirty thirty" I sell + half of every ladies drink I sell + DJ + floorman + bouncer. I pay about $200 to work in a club that ALWAYS has 2-3 girls per customer, no VIP and NEVER a packed house. It is completely ridiculous. The ONLY reason I put up with that shit is due to location and getting married. Otherwise my ass would've been outta here so fast it'd made the friggin STATE spin :P





That outcome won't happen though. There won't be any big backlash, just a slow but sure and steady decline in quality at a lot of clubs, with some new clubs catering to the high end customer.Why do you assume I mean an ABRUPT HALT to production? Of course not! I mean a slow decline, just like we've been talking about, just like yall have been complaining about on this board, just like the OP of this very thread. My whole point was that this situation has been created by poor management. And now you apparently get it.




Yes, I know your not employees. But you are arguing that you shouldn't have to pay house fees either. You are not going to get it both ways, sorry, it won't happen. It's not my fault, I'm just saying what is.

If you use the logic "Since we pay them for the privilige of using their facilities, I reckon our responsibilities to them stopped a long time ago. " then the alternative is don't pay them the housefees, and payup to them in some other ways. But the days of working for the clubs with no responsibility to make the club money are over and done with. That was a different time under a different set of circumstances.Doooood!! I have NEVER said I don't think we should pay house fees. Please go back and re-read. I have SAID that clubs should be managed properly, and girls be encourage, no, EXPECTED to perform, and we pay REASONABLE fees, and they re-invest SOME of those fees in the club for maintenance and marketing. Why is that so hard to understand? This is the way it works in other businesses where the contractors pay for use of facilities. Why not us???




That sounds good to me. Maybe then the clubs should simply make their money in those ways with ONE very important difference. Rather then letting the strippers do whatever they want, and be self motivated, place minimum earning demands on them. Say an average of $100 a night? If they don't make the club at least that much, out they go. Still, that seems like a door fee to me calculated a little differently, but it would work. What doesn't work for the club owners is for strippers to use their facilities indefinitely without some required minimum level of performance.OMFG you have just repeated what I've been saying and acted like it was your idea. I say charge a REASONABLE fee to work. I say make the bitches perform and if they don't kick their sorry asses OUT. And I say keep the dancer counts at a reasonable level to allow a reasonable playing field, rather than hire as many lazy bitches as possible ::)




True for you. For me we are required to wear fairly expensive clothes, like one suit would cover three dozen costumes, but sure, I'll buy that you have higher expenses then a lot of professions.I buy my suits on sale. I shop at the end of the month or just after xmas to take advantage of clearances. I wear nice suits. But whatever - now you're just arguing for the sake of it. Can you just allow that good stripper shit ;D costs a bit more than average and be done with it already???




I did not assume you only worked one year. It's just that when you use a figure like $250K, that has shock value out of context. In context of it's over a period of several years, it has much less shock value. Like if I said I know a realtor that only made $25K a year for broker, you'd probably be thinking, damn what a slacker.Again my point was lost on you. I have invested as much as your average clubowner would over the same amount of time because they don't reinvest anymore, only the one shot. The point was to rebutt your assertion that the owners make ALL the investment while the dancers make NONE. When you add it all up, we invest just as much $$$ as they do.






No I don't know you, but this isn't meant to a personal discussion just about you. We're just talking general trends. Sadly while you may be very industrious, we live in a world filled with people that are not. Yeah, but alot of people will get off their asses and get to work when faced with put out or get out ;D





Problem is when you say it like that I can't tell if you are for or against house fees, or just against the way the strip club owners use the money in general. But if you were to tell me that strip club owners tend to let the places run down, sure I'd agree with that. It's the nature of the business. They have no long term benefit in investing in their product, or their contractors. YES I'm telling you they misspend the money. They don't reinvest. They let the facilities go to shit and they don't market. They COULD have longterm incentive, if they would run their businesses like businesses instead of something to abuse until it's worthless.



And no I'm not an owner, but I can see clearly what motivates an owner by stepping into his mental shoes. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Trends are what they are. We can talk about them objectively separate from how they affect you personally. Now of course they don't affect me much. They do affect you so sure, I understand you don't entirely like how the industry is turning out, but it's also very predicatable that things would turn out this way. To be quite honest though, I don't see things changing in any way that is better for the strippers on the horizon.
That's no newsflash here. I know, and so do most of the rest of us. It doesn't stop us WANTING something better. I can see what motivates real business owners. And I can see what motivates strip club owners too since I've dealt with both - most often what motivates a strip club owner has more to do with sex, lifestyle and partying than anything else. These tend to be extremely short-sighted people, not unlike the corporate investors of today frankly (who now micromanage for quarterly numbers at the expense of long term gains). Perhaps the corpofucks have started taking lessons from strip club owners - what a horrendous thought that is! But I digress. The point here is that these people use the worst management methods possible and they are ruining their very own businesses because of it.

Bridgette
09-07-2006, 12:54 PM
See you say you understand business, but then say things like this. What seems entirely crystal clear to me you don't seem to see. One of is missing something.


See to what you said makes all the difference in the world. It's the difference between say walking into a Casino and dropping down $1million bucks and committing yourself to gambling that much on a future roll(s) paying off versus
spending that money little by little over many years while also walking away with winningsNO. No NO No no NO!! Raise your hand if you really think investing in a strip club is any sort of gamble. Please. It's like the one business you're practically guaranteed to make a big profit in - even if you're a dumbass and run your business in the absolute worst way possible, you can make money in strip club. Because there will always be girls to pay those fees, and there always will be some custies coming to see them.

Yes hun, I understand that the large initial investment in business is usually a big risk. But in a strip club? NAH!!!

This only proves that you don't really get the full deal in the strip club business :P

But that's ok, I'll give you the full deal, er...song. ha

xdamage
09-07-2006, 01:06 PM
You sure you're not just looking in from the outside? Because that's what it looks like to US.


I know.



Totally missed the point. The point is that in 10-11 years, I have invested just as much $$$ into this industry as your average individual owner would in that same time. So from that, we can say that dancers in general invest just as much as owners in general. Your assertion that we invest nothing is completely bogus.


I did understand. What I disagreed with though is I believe it's a much greater risk to risk that all up front. I explained why in a separate reply.



$120 + $10 from every "dirty thirty" I sell + half of every ladies drink I sell + DJ + floorman + bouncer. I pay about $200 to work in a club that ALWAYS has 2-3 girls per customer, no VIP and NEVER a packed house. It is completely ridiculous. The ONLY reason I put up with that shit is due to location and getting married. Otherwise my ass would've been outta here so fast it'd made the friggin STATE spin :P


Okay. It's useful to have a clearer picture of the fees.



Why do you assume I mean an ABRUPT HALT to production? Of course not! I mean a slow decline, just like we've been talking about, just like yall have been complaining about on this board, just like the OP of this very thread. My whole point was that this situation has been created by poor management. And now you apparently get it.


Ah okay it sounded like you were suggesting something abrupt was going to happen. We agree about the slow decline. We don't completely agree about it just being due to poor management. I think it's also because you work in an industry that makes little demands on the works, no need for an education to get in, and as the stigma decreases, is attracting so much competition from other girls that the good old days are gone. Management is just a bunch of people that are riding a wave.



Doooood!! I have NEVER said I don't think we should pay house fees. Please go back and re-read. I have SAID that clubs should be managed properly, and girls be encourage, no, EXPECTED to perform, and we pay REASONABLE fees, and they re-invest SOME of those fees in the club for maintenance and marketing. Why is that so hard to understand? This is the way it works in other businesses where the contractors pay for use of facilities. Why not us???


Well, that wasn't clear where you stood. Now it's clear. And we agree on that.





OMFG you have just repeated what I've been saying and acted like it was your idea. I say charge a REASONABLE fee to work. I say make the bitches perform and if they don't kick their sorry asses OUT. And I say keep the dancer counts at a reasonable level to allow a reasonable playing field, rather than hire as many lazy bitches as possible ::)


I wasn't attempting to steal your idea, and I've thought so all along, whether or not I was clear. In any case it sounds like we agree on the basics.



Can you just allow that good stripper shit ;D costs a bit more than average and be done with it already???


Sure.



Again my point was lost on you. I have invested as much as your average clubowner would over the same amount of time because they don't reinvest anymore, only the one shot. The point was to rebutt your assertion that the owners make ALL the investment while the dancers make NONE. When you add it all up, we invest just as much $$$ as they do.


Like I said, I see a fundamental risk difference between putting up the money up front and slowly over many years making money for an employeer while also making money for yourself.





YES I'm telling you they misspend the money. They don't reinvest. They let the facilities go to shit and they don't market. They COULD have longterm incentive, if they would run their businesses like businesses instead of something to abuse until it's worthless.


Like I said, it's predicatable. They don't have any long term product or employees. Strippers come and go. It's not surprising to me that the clubs also operate on the same model.



That's no newsflash here. I know, and so do most of the rest of us. It doesn't stop us WANTING something better. ... But I digress. The point here is that these people use the worst management methods possible and they are ruining their very own businesses because of it.


Sure, I didn't expect it was a newsflash to you, and sure it's normal to want it to be better. I'll even buy that it attracts seedy management. But as some have said, the business also attracts a lot of seedy contract workers. It sort of goes hand in hand with a business that focuses on sex, and doesn't require any "edumacation" :)

xdamage
09-07-2006, 01:09 PM
Yes hun, I understand that the large initial investment in business is usually a big risk. But in a strip club? NAH!!!

This only proves that you don't really get the full deal in the strip club business :P

But that's ok, I'll give you the full deal, er...song. ha

Well you may be correct that the moment it's a very good business to be in. Of course that could change. A war for example, people can become very conservative very quickly. If you invest, you still have to hope that it stays in business long enough that you recoupe you investment. I don't know that it's guaranteed, but it's probably a good bet.

Bridgette
09-07-2006, 01:36 PM
So, you're saying that after all that, we actually mostly agree? Then why the long debate? Aside from the sport of it :P

I must admit it was a rather entertaining way to wile away some time ;D

azcustomer
09-07-2006, 04:09 PM
NO. No NO No no NO!! Raise your hand if you really think investing in a strip club is any sort of gamble. Please. It's like the one business you're practically guaranteed to make a big profit in - even if you're a dumbass and run your business in the absolute worst way possible, you can make money in strip club. Because there will always be girls to pay those fees, and there always will be some custies coming to see them.

Sooooo, why does Babe's in Scottsdale lose money hand over fist?

The guys Jenna bought it from lost their a$$.

doc-catfish
09-07-2006, 04:57 PM
Umm...where exactly are the draft beers only $6?

Can you post an address? :P

Oh hell, I can find you cheaper than that (like around $3-4). In fact, $6 will get you an entire pitcher in some joints around here if you show up on the right night.

xdamage
09-07-2006, 05:50 PM
So, you're saying that after all that, we actually mostly agree? Then why the long debate? Aside from the sport of it :P

I must admit it was a rather entertaining way to wile away some time ;D


Don't know. Partially my fault - not all dancers can be objective about these things. Partially you have more invested emotionally in this then I do (it's you job, for me it's just an occassional form of entertainment). Partially we just seemed to emphasizes different aspects. But yea, I'd say we mostly agree ;)

Casual Observer
09-07-2006, 06:21 PM
I guess all the workouts, manicures, hair, skin, makeup, outfits are completely worthless and meaningless

Getting back to the original topic, I wish more dancers invested in themselves--it would be easier to spend money. But the clubs are basically taking anyone with a pulse and the ability to pay the house fees.

Maybe I just long for an SC environment that no longer exists.

Richard_Head
09-07-2006, 08:21 PM
Sooooo, why does Babe's in Scottsdale lose money hand over fist?

The guys Jenna bought it from lost their a$$.Where did you hear this? I seriously doubt it to be true.

Daniela
09-07-2006, 11:39 PM
Maybe I just long for an SC environment that no longer exists.

It exists, where I am... ;)

azcustomer
09-08-2006, 12:59 AM
Where did you hear this? I seriously doubt it to be true.

I was asked to help bail them out and saw the books. Funny thing, the owners tried to 'take it public' in a penny stock scam, preying on the common assumption that, as was previously posted: "all strip clubs mint money". They even had a red herring prospectus and everything. Too bad for them the numbers sucked a$$.

Like any cash centric business, ownership needs to be there every night watching everything to make sure the 'servers' don't serve themselves.

Bridgette
09-08-2006, 05:11 AM
Yeah right.

GenWar
09-08-2006, 05:41 AM
^^ ??

Is this disbelief of azcustomer's statement? of Daniela's?

Or just a general malaise with this thread?

I am rivetted by every word of this lively discussion and this statement just seems to be beyond my limited deductive skills.

-gen

xdamage
09-08-2006, 07:24 AM
I was asked to help bail them out and saw the books. Funny thing, the owners tried to 'take it public' in a penny stock scam, preying on the common assumption that, as was previously posted: "all strip clubs mint money". They even had a red herring prospectus and everything. Too bad for them the numbers sucked a$$.


Sure, and often times employees don't see what is really happening behind the scenes (not just at SCs, but many businesses). The employees may see the owner drive up in a new car and be thinking the place is rolling in dough, when the truth is the place is bleeding money and the owner is just riding it out and skimming what he can while it lasts.



Like any cash centric business, ownership needs to be there every night watching everything to make sure the 'servers' don't serve themselves.

Very true. The casinos know this very well. Human nature at play. When a lot of cash is being passed around (often in the dark in SCs) there is a strong temptation to steal.

Again, to some degree that's the advantage of collecting door fees from the dancers. The clubs make a minimum even if a dancer is dishonest about how much she really made that night. See if you ran a club that only has a handful of girls you could police them, but a club like a Las Vegas club that has 50-100 or more girls working the floor, there is really no practical way to police all of them. It would be far to expensive to pay yet more employees to watch the dancers.

Casual Observer
09-08-2006, 10:15 AM
It exists, where I am... ;)

If you're talking about where I think you're talking about, you're right.

:)

mr_punk
09-09-2006, 05:24 AM
I am rivetted by every word of this lively discussion and this statement just seems to be beyond my limited deductive skills.riveting? LOL. well, that's one way of putting it. anyway, one doesn't need to be Philip Marlowe to deduce a correlation behind the statement or this rash of attention whores (paradoxically, they usually react by biatch slapping PLs back to CC on such a topic) down here lately, talking to us as if we're strippers. obviously, the attention in the club isn't enough.

evan_essence
09-10-2006, 11:38 AM
Cripes, I'll never get back the time I spent reading so much agreement phrased in so many different ways.

For me, it's hard to understand why the clubs don't want to improve their management in order to improve the quality of the dancers in order to improve the amount of money they make. Except, like Bridgette said, there's a degree of partying and sexing going on that's an incentive for management to operate the way they do and that's in at least partial conflict with action to increase revenues. A.k.a. laziness and incompetence.

That, and I think this point needs to be emphasized for its insight into management motivation ...


Maybe its bleeding money because some of the clubs "investors" (namely the same type of folks who invested in LV casinos during the 40's and 50's) have cut off the dirty money they were having run through the wash there. Perhaps their "investment" wasn't breaking even.
:idea:Without commenting on specifics of any individual situation, I think you've hit upon a point that's very relevant to this discussion. All cash business. Laundered money. Money that's not declared for tax purposes. Recreational drugs on the side. In other words, there's a nice tidy sum to potentially be made off this business that has nothing to do with operating it in a traditional business fashion. When you're raking it in through illegal sources, why mess with the work it takes to make more legally? In some cases, the barely legal stuff is a front, and crooks don't have good work ethics or else they wouldn't be crooks.

Disclaimer: Just as we've noted that all strippers aren't lazy asses, we need to issue the same statement that all managers and owners are not incompetent, lazy or criminals. I worked for some decent ones or else I wouldn't have stayed with it as long as I did.

-Ev

Katrine
09-10-2006, 04:12 PM
I've worked with a lot of great management and owners as well. But each one of them had a bit of slimeball in him no matter how cool he was to the dancers and employees.... ;) Its a sleazy business.

mr_punk
09-10-2006, 06:17 PM
which is why i always count my rings and fingers after greasing their palms. i recognize my own kind when i see them.

mr_punk
09-10-2006, 06:46 PM
Except, like Bridgette said, there's a degree of partying and sexing going on that's an incentive for management to operate the way they do and that's in at least partial conflict with action to increase revenues.subornation is an art form in the sex industry.

azcustomer
09-10-2006, 09:49 PM
Except, like Bridgette said, there's a degree of partying and sexing going on that's an incentive for management to operate the way they do and that's in at least partial conflict with action to increase revenues. A.k.a. laziness and incompetence.

Absolutely correct. And this is the #1 reason for my leaving the club with cash still in my pocket. When you realize the gals are competing for the DJ's attention who's band "is on the bubble". Uh, yea.:P Better yet, there's the young security guy who tries to point her to his friends for quick and cheap extra's trips to the VIP.

Unfortunately these occasions not only ruin it for said dancer, but for all the other dancers in the club. It's like, well, he certainly has to be HER pimp with his friends, so why isn't he yours as well?

That being said, there are a few bouncers/bartenders who understand how to make a club vibe work and keep the gals flowing to the paying customers.;D

Katrine
09-10-2006, 11:10 PM
Those bitches are filler az. There are hardworking strippers out there, you just need to catch them when they aren't being taken up in the VIP room!

yoda57us
09-11-2006, 05:03 AM
In every club I've ever been in there where girls who where serious about partying and girls who where serious about making money. I don't know what would possess a woman to dance naked just for the opportunity to have guys buy her drinks and to flirt with a DJ. I don't know because I don't waste time with women like that. No matter how good they look they don't understand why we are there and they really don't care. They get naked and make $30 bucks during a stage set then spend all night hanging with the boyz from the hood or whatever other wanna-be's are in that night. They get drunk sitting at the table and MAYBE one of the boyz buys a dance or even a VIP.

Meanwhile the serious money maker is working the room, working the crowd or cultivating her regulars, as the case may be. She's banking any day or night that the club is reasonably busy and clearing better money than most of her customers.

The key is to find the girls who are serious about making money and showing you a good time. This is a decision making process that has to involve both the big and little heads.

GenWar
09-11-2006, 05:33 AM
QUOTE=yoda57us:
In every club I've ever been in there where girls who where serious about partying and girls who where serious about making money.
...
The key is to find the girls who are serious about making money and showing you a good time. This is a decision making process that has to involve both the big and little heads.
------------------------------------
I think this is dead on. My experience is exactly a mirror image of this. I am looking for the girls who are in to partying and hanging out and not really THAT serious about making money. Since I am usually able to find them, though NOT without interactions with those who aren't on board with that plan, I gotta think that the reverse would be equally true.

The other thing to remember that these are not categories of dancers but rather modes of operation. In my experience, on any given night, a paticular girl can be either. On Saturday night, one dancer at the ATF's club who ALWAYS hangs with me for hours while the ATF is working the room, was not around at all. I noticed her leading guy after guy after guy into the dance room. When I finally got to chat with her, I asked her what's up? She said her car was dying and she needed to get it fixed. I guess, given the proper motivation, she had to change modes. ;)

-gen

mr_punk
09-11-2006, 05:37 AM
In every club I've ever been in there where girls who where serious about partying and girls who where serious about making money.and there are girls who like to play hard and work hard. if a stripper has ever suggested that pharmaceutical enhancements are available for "our" pleasure in the club. you know what i'm talking about.

yoda57us
09-11-2006, 07:37 AM
and there are girls who like to play hard and work hard. if a stripper has ever suggested that pharmaceutical enhancements are available for "our" pleasure in the club. you know what i'm talking about.

Actually I don't. I don't really get involved with dancers-or people in general-who are drug users. A possible acception to this would be pot smokers but even they can get annoying sometimes.

blondhottie
09-11-2006, 08:39 AM
CO, you can come to my club and I'll gladly take your money. ;D LOL

Seriously, I never understood why some girls don't bother going to guys who ask them for dances. It's just plain stupid! It's like flushing a $20 down the toilet. These are always the same girls who are bitching and complaining at the end of the night that they made no money too. Well duh, I wonder why! If a guy tips me on stage and asks me for a dance when I'm done, that's my first stop after getting off stage. It saves me the trouble of weeding through the customers and trying to find out who has money AND is interested in me.

Tina
09-11-2006, 09:34 AM
These girls don't see dancing as a "real" job. The majority of dancers don't have a strong business mind or any business inclinations. They are the types of people who will be scuffling or working for a paycheck the rest of their lives.

Being young is also a problem. Many dancers are in their early twenties, and are not motivated to accumulate money. They just recently became drinking age, and we all know that our twenties are the party years. If the average dancer were in her forties, she would be more mature, and probably be more serious about making as much money as possible, and more interested in financial security.

Many of these girls work for extra money and the "fun" of it. Men in their twenties would probably be more motivated to make large amounts of money, own real estate, and own a business, than girls the same age as men are raised to be breadwinners and women have been raised to be more submissive.

These girls aren't looking to be independent financially. They want to party and have a boyfriend. If they get married to a guy who has an entrepreneurial mind, then they will become more responsible and start seeing dancing as a way to make seed money for business endeavors. If they hook up with a guy who is unambitious, they will be the same.

Training is the key here, and seriously, Dancer Wealth should come up with a way to affordably make his training available to thousands of dancers and club owners everywhere. We are facing an epidemic problem now in the strip club business. His program is only reaching a small handful of girls who are already success driven anyway.

Most dancers out there need someone to manage them and their money, and club owners need to be forced to care about their employees (like it or not, we are employees) not let them drink or do drugs, and have sexual harassment policies enforced in the clubs to keep management from seeing the clubs as a harem.

xdamage
09-11-2006, 10:50 AM
These girls don't see dancing as a "real" job. The majority of dancers don't have a strong business mind or any business inclinations. They are the types of people who will be scuffling or working for a paycheck the rest of their lives.

Being young is also a problem. Many dancers are in their early twenties, and are not motivated to accumulate money. They just recently became drinking age, and we all know that our twenties are the party years. If the average dancer were in her forties, she would be more mature, and probably be more serious about making as much money as possible, and more interested in financial security.

Many of these girls work for extra money and the "fun" of it. Men in their twenties would probably be more motivated to make large amounts of money, own real estate, and own a business, than girls the same age as men are raised to be breadwinners and women have been raised to be more submissive.

These girls aren't looking to be independent financially. They want to party and have a boyfriend. If they get married to a guy who has an entrepreneurial mind, then they will become more responsible and start seeing dancing as a way to make seed money for business endeavors. If they hook up with a guy who is unambitious, they will be the same.


Of course the type of girl you are describing can be found in many lines of work, but I'd gamble that you'll find a higher percentage stripping as the social stigma about sex work decreases.

First there is the potential to make a lot of money, second no education is required, third there is no significant pressure to complete job duties on a daily basis, and fourth stripping is synonmous with partying. That's a great combination for attracting certain personality type.



Training is the key here, and seriously, Dancer Wealth should come up with a way to affordably make his training available to thousands of dancers and club owners everywhere. We are facing an epidemic problem now in the strip club business. His program is only reaching a small handful of girls who are already success driven anyway.


I don't know. I have the suspicion that a lot of these girls don't want any advice, or would ignore it no different then ignoring the warning label on a pack of cigarettes. If anything they may choose to the opposite - it's cool to rebel and live one day at a time with no worries about tomorrow.



Most dancers out there need someone to manage them and their money, and club owners need to be forced to care about their employees (like it or not, we are employees) not let them drink or do drugs, and have sexual harassment policies enforced in the clubs to keep management from seeing the clubs as a harem.

Oh no the "E" word ;) I've been reminded that strippers are not employees (which I knew but I guess it's a point of pride). A work enviroment that treated them like true employees with a salary, and expectations to work (and requirements that they not drink) might be successful, but I can't help but think that it would drive away the self-managed girls who make more as independent contractors.

Tina
09-11-2006, 07:04 PM
Even though we are independent contractors "per se", we still have rules to follow at each club we work at. We have to be at work at a certain time at some clubs, have to be on stage for x amount of songs, have to work a set schedule or minimum amount of hours, and have to be dressed a certain way dependant on the club.

So all and all we are employees. The lack of a paycheck in many big clubs doesn't change that fact.

Requirements won't really drive away self managed girls. Even though we are self managed, if a club requires us to wear gowns, or minimum 5 inch heels, or not sit with customers at the tip rail, or always be talking to the customers, or if they impose a dance quota, that is just par for the course. We all follow rules set by the club wherever we work or else we won't be working there for long.

Training as a whole creates a better work environment. Some clubs ride the girls asses like donkeys, don't let the girls stay in the dressing room very long and tell them how long to sit with a customer or not sit with them. Most girls with proper structure will follow the rules for working the floor. The problem is, most don't know what to do or say. Girls who fuck up get fired. I have worked in clubs where the structure was enforced. Problem girls are talked to, and if they fuck up again are fired. These clubs had meetings. All in all it produced a better working environment.
The girls who are good salespeople rarely get any reprimands from the clubs who have managers monitoring the girls. Managers and owners usually get on the girls asses who sit around or drink a lot. They rarely bother the reliable girls.

mr_punk
09-11-2006, 07:31 PM
Actually I don't. I don't really get involved with dancers-or people in general-who are drug users. A possible acception to this would be pot smokers but even they can get annoying sometimes.one doesn't need to get involved or partake at all. still, it's there all the same. i don't think it's a big surprise to anyone here, there's a drug subculture that comes long with the sex industry. actually, the entertainment industry as a whole for that matter.

Most dancers out there need someone to manage them and their money, and club owners need to be forced to care about their employees (like it or not, we are employees) not let them drink or do drugs, and have oftentimes policies enforced in the clubs to keep management from seeing the clubs as a harem.good luck with the club owners. sometimes, it's a case of leaving the fox in charge of watching the hen house. i think it would be difficult to enforce a workplace policy on drugs or sexual harassment. when the some of the guys he's hiring is supplying the product or pimping the girls out. where do they find these guys?

azcustomer
09-12-2006, 01:42 AM
good luck with the club owners. sometimes, it's a case of leaving the fox in charge of watching the hen house. i think it would be difficult to enforce a workplace policy on drugs or sexual harassment. when the some of the guys he's hiring is supplying the product or pimping the girls out. where do they find these guys?
Mr. Punk, I didn't realize you didn't know the formula.

The managers hang out at local live music rock houses and ask for the bandmembers who are getting kicked out of the group.

That's like asking what it takes to make a 7/11 C-Store. All it takes is four skater-heads hanging out on an empty streetcorner for 2 weeks and "presto" - you have your next Slurpee slingin' C-Store.

lunchbox
09-12-2006, 06:42 AM
where do they find these guys?
On their way home after being discharged from the military.


The managers hang out at local live music rock houses and ask for the bandmembers who are getting kicked out of the group.
He was not referring to the girls BF's.

xdamage
09-12-2006, 07:05 AM
Even though we are independent contractors "per se", we still have rules to follow at each club we work at. We have to be at work at a certain time at some clubs, have to be on stage for x amount of songs, have to work a set schedule or minimum amount of hours, and have to be dressed a certain way dependant on the club.

So all and all we are employees. The lack of a paycheck in many big clubs doesn't change that fact.


Hehe - yea, I know. I was partially joking because when a customer uses the "E" word on the blue site typically one of the dancers from the pink site goes out of her way to emphasizes that they are not "E"s. ;)

If you look up the difference between employeer and independent contractor (the details of which vary from state to state) it's apparent that dancers don't clearly fit it either category. In fact the category they most likely fall into is misclassified independent contractors, many of which don't fully realize that they are being treated like employees without the usual benefits*. Basically the club owners have managed to skip all the paper work and benefits associated with employment.

There is a fairly good layman's article here describing the difference between employee and independent contractor:

http://jobsearchtech.about.com/od/laborlaws/l/aa121800.htm

I suppose you could argue that they are neither employees nor contractors, but actually client's of the club. Clients that pay the club owner for the right to use the club facilities to sell themselves. And as a client, they agree to follow the club's rules of conduct, and to pay back some of what they make to the club.

*But... see my next point...



Requirements won't really drive away self managed girls. Even though we are self managed, if a club requires us to wear gowns, or minimum 5 inch heels, or not sit with customers at the tip rail, or always be talking to the customers, or if they impose a dance quota, that is just par for the course. We all follow rules set by the club wherever we work or else we won't be working there for long.


Yea, the misunderstanding is my fault. I was thinking of a salaried, probably commissioned employee when I wrote that, and was thinking that the hustlers and self-managed can make more as an independent contractor.

See when an employeers goes to the expense of making someone an employee, there are usually additional costs and benefits (even if it's just paper work), as well as the possibility of being sued for wrongful firing. So the employeer usually wants a bigger cut. Often they also want the money handed to them straight up, and then they later redispense it in the form or a salary (and commission). Sometimes employeers also want all tips reported and sometimes require some tip sharing so that all employees benefit, etc.

So basically a very good hustler that is self-managed can often make more as an independent contractor, even though they give up the security and benefits of employment.

dlabtot
09-12-2006, 07:41 AM
Under Montana law, strippers are clearly NOT independent contractors, no matter what agreement they may sign with the club. They don't pass the 'A' test:


(A) has been and will continue to be free from control or direction over the performance of the services, both under contract and in fact;
http://erd.dli.mt.gov/wcregs/iclawexplained.asp

Bridgette
09-12-2006, 05:30 PM
Oh no the "E" word ;) I've been reminded that strippers are not employees (which I knew but I guess it's a point of pride). A work enviroment that treated them like true employees with a salary, and expectations to work (and requirements that they not drink) might be successful, but I can't help but think that it would drive away the self-managed girls who make more as independent contractors.Damn right it would. But first I have to say that as long as we pay to work, we aren't employees in the traditional sense, whether mgmt wants to schedule us, etc, or not. For the most part, speaking strictly on technicalitites, we are NOT employees because we are IC's, and must pay self-employment taxes, etc. I disagree that having certain industry standard "rules" makes us employees in any sense, because even ICs in other industries have to abide by certain standards in order to work in their particular fields (a manicurist can run her business out of a salon and pay rent for her booth, and may operate in some ways the way she wants, but still has to follow certain salon standards), so that in itself doesn't make us employees.

Speaking from a practical standpoint, most of us may be employees because most people in general have an "employee" mentality. Ie, do just what you're told or have to in order to get by, and nothing more. Despite the rebellious attitude many strippers may have, they mostly still have that employee mentality - no drive, no ambition, do just enough to get by and mostly do what someone else tells them. But this 1) does not apply to all and 2) only refers to individual behaviours, not systems.

Speaking for myself and those like me, who are more motivated and go to work for WORK and to maximize the benefits of it, you can betcherass that making us true employees would run us out in droves!! Because 1) there is NO WAY IN HELL I, or most like me, will put up with having our productivity directly benefit some other lazy/ugly bitch and 2) there is NO WAY IN HELL I, or most like me, would put up with being limited in such a way and still get naked for it. Hell, this type of system would run out a whole lot of girls because even many of those with the employee mentality would balk at having to split her earnings with, or take similar pay to Suzy FatAss who can't sell for shit.

I also agree that most people in general aren't very motivated, not just in stripping, and that this industry simply attracts a greater proportion of that type because of the crappy way the biz is run.


So basically a very good hustler that is self-managed can often make more as an independent contractor, even though they give up the security and benefits of employment.Yes. There are places where the girls ARE employees, and guess what? They make CRAP. C-R-A-P!!! Hell, at one place I know of in particular, they make WAAAAYYY less than I made in the straight job I just quit. One girl messaged me trying to tell me how I should go work there, and my response was basically: "uuuhhh, sorry but there is NO WAY IN HELL I'll get naked for that kind of money - especially when I can make ALOT MORE with my clothes ON".

I, and others like me, happily give up the "security" (false sense of security if you ask me but that's another thread) of regular employment in order to make more money as a "misclassified" IC stripper. Because we can BUY the health insurance and retirement funds, and still have more money leftover than we would in most straight jobs. Because we have the freedom to choose whichever club we want to work (and thereby whose rules we want to follow), at the drop of a hat, on literally a moment's notice - something NO employee can do. Because we can choose how we conduct our business within certain industry standards. Because we can choose with whom (which customers) we deal with, at any time, regardless of anything you might hear to the contrary. Because we are not expected to produce and then share the benefits with Suzy FatAss who doesn't sell for shit. Etc, etc, etc.

xdamage
09-12-2006, 05:44 PM
Speaking for myself and those like me, who are more motivated and go to work for WORK and to maximize the benefits of it, you can betcherass that making us true employees would run us out in droves!!


Yea, you wrote out what I was getting at. I agree.



I also agree that most people in general aren't very motivated, not just in stripping, and that this industry simply attracts a greater proportion of that type because of the crappy way the biz is run.


Yep, and there is really no motivating them. They have to do it themselves. And yes, it's just the nature of the biz your in that attracts a larger proportion of the slackers among us.