Log in

View Full Version : The average arab in the street



Pages : 1 [2] 3 4

azcustomer
09-13-2006, 12:30 PM
^^^ That is actually a lie. There are plenty of citizens of Israel who are not Jews. Arabs can hold full citizenship and there are some in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament. Furthermore, no one identified as a "Palestinian" until the 1960's. They had no connection to the land and certainly weren't doing anything with it. It was a barren wasteland until the Jews returned and reclaimed it.
No, it's not a lie. GENERALLY, non-Jews are not given the full rights afforded Jews in Israel. It was getting better there for a while with a few of the settlements being unwound. I suspect that the recent war about some kidnapped soldiers will be used to justify more Arab bashing within the Israeli controlled territory. Generally life in Israel for Arabs sucks. However, life in the Arab countries for Jews sucks too. Frankly, I don't know why anyone not living there should care. The conflict in the Middle East should not affect how we treat each other in other parts of the world.

And I wonder what your thoughts might be on the existence of Pakistan, which was created from India in the late 1940's (by the UN) so that Indian Muslims might have a homeland. Many Hindus lost their land in the formation of Pakistan, and it still hasn't stopped the fighting; both nations battle bitterly and experience terrorism over Kashmir, and they are both nuclear powers. Do you believe that Pakistan has a right to exist?
You might have misunderstood my post, which was meant to be informative, not inflammatory. I didn't mean to intimate that Israel didn't have the right to exist, just explain why their neighbors are a little peeved about it. The Paki/India conflict is also understandable. Although strangely today, most of Pakistan is Christian (Catholic).

DancerWealth
09-13-2006, 12:37 PM
Generally, most Arabs or Muslims living outside the Arab world do not hold any hatred towards Jews. They may still hate Israel, but not Jews.



Huh? How about the Holocaust Cartoon Contest (State sponsored Muslim activity), comments of "Push the Jews into the sea" by Muslim dictators, Muslim anti-semetic protests all throughout Europe and routine teaching in public Muslim schools to hate the Jews on a daily basis?

As Bernard Lewis of Princeton put the point in his book Semites and Anti-Semites (1986): “The volume of anti-Semitic books and articles published, the size and number of editions and impressions, the eminence and authority of those who write, publish and sponsor them, their place in school and college curricula, their role in the mass media, would all seem to suggest that classical anti-Semitism is an essential part of Arab [and I would add, Muslim] intellectual life at the present time…”


Here is a GREAT article on this topic you should read:


http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1294


Here is a great excerpt from it:


Of the myriad examples, one stands out for me: a June 2002 interview on Saudi TV with a 3-year-old girl named Basmallah, made available by the Middle East Media and Research Institute:


Anchor: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?
Basmallah: Yes.
Anchor: Do you like them?
Basmallah: No.
Anchor: Why don't you like them?
Basmallah: Because . . .
Anchor: Because they are what?
Basmallah: They're apes and pigs.
Anchor: Because they are apes and pigs. Who said they are so?
Basmallah: Our God.
Anchor: Where did he say this?
Basmallah: In the Koran.


The little girl is wrong about the Koran, but her words show that, contrary to [Condoleezza] Rice's analysis, Muslim anti-Semitism extends even to the youngest children.

Jay Zeno
09-13-2006, 12:42 PM
For a history of the area:



In 1946-1947, there were hundreds or thousands Palestinian Arabs who were most definitely massacred and displaced from lands that they had owned - just as has been going on in that unhappy land, back and forth, for the last four or five thousand years.

The hatred is endless. You can find plenty of sites that call Baruch Goldstein a martyr in a just cause. You can see the unreasoned venom dripping from the President of Iran. But I have met plenty of Muslims, from Turks, to Lebanese, to Persians, to Pakistanis, to Arabs, who have no feelings about Jews one way or the other except how they are as human beings. Across 22 home countries, worldwide distribution, and population of over a billion, I have no idea what the "average" Muslim is, and I doubt that the "average" Muslim traits have great meaning when you're sitting at a lunch counter chatting with someone.

TheSexKitten
09-13-2006, 01:10 PM
When everything is presented to you via a state-sponsored medium with the accompanying agenda, why does it surprise anyone to witness the people, conditions and attitudes those nations produce in the process?

Exactarifically.

Paisley
09-13-2006, 06:47 PM
Something frequently ignored or overlooked by Westerners is the fact that the Arab street, as it's called--retardedly so, in my view, since the only unifying trait of disparate Arab peoples is a common hatred of Jews, doesn't have access to open information systems from which to compare and analyze what is going on in their own countries and communities, nevermind the wider world. They have no means of assessing for themselves what is reality and what is religious/political fantasy or any shades thereof.

When everything is presented to you via a state-sponsored medium with the accompanying agenda, why does it surprise anyone to witness the people, conditions and attitudes those nations produce in the process?

True, most of their leaders are rather secular and spoon feed the general populace hatred simply for their own doing. They are effectively being brainwashed into a pathology that ends up screwing themselves over more o than anyone else. Iran, Syria, and Lebanon have little in common other then their shared hatred of Jews hence they can all support Hezbollah.

That being said, as another poster pointed out, this isn't unique to only the Arab world. Americans were deluded into thinking that it was perfectly fine for Blacks to be lynched because blacks were considered sub human, Eleanor Roosevelt couldn't even get an anti-lynching law in place. And Germans (and many other Europeans) thought that Jews were sub human so it was fitting to gas them. This was all less than 100 years ago and even though the actions have ceased many of the pathologies are still very much here to this day.

Something that really bugs me about Arabs in particular is that many claim that they are victims of the west. When in reality what happened to many Arabs really wasn't really that different to what occured with other people under the dominion of colonialism. Yet they are not crashing planes into buildings. Also if they claimed that they want to be treated humanely (which in my view they are) then they should come into question on how they have treated Armenians, Kurds, Sudanese, Ethiopians, and Somalians. They really are not treating their own Arab brothers and sisters very well.

azcustomer
09-13-2006, 07:27 PM
Something that really bugs me about Arabs in particular is that many claim that they are victims of the west. When in reality what happened to many Arabs really wasn't really that different to what occured with other people under the dominion of colonialism.

Except what they are most upset about is Israel ignoring the UN resolution requiring them to return the land they took during the six days war. The war was fought with sereptitous military support from Britan and the United States. Israel successfully increased their landmass by a factor of 3 and ended up with a million Arabs to control in it's occupied territory.

After the war, the UN passed a resolution requiring Israel to return the lands. Israel has always claimed it intends to comply but has been extremely slow in it's actions. And the world all knows that Israel constitutes the largest single subsidy of US taxpayers every year - to the tune of well over $6 billion annually. Thus, the drawn out conflict and ill will.

The difference is, with the other people in colonies, their borders and governments are now stabilized and independant. Certainly the US has done it's share to destabilize the Middle East.

Casual Observer
09-13-2006, 07:52 PM
The war was fought with sereptitous military support from Britan and the United States.

The US was not in support of the preemptive Six Day War; the UK and France were, because Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal and shut it down to Israeli shipping. The US forced the return of the Sinai region. And the Yom Kippur War, in which the Syrian's lost the Golan Heights, was started by Arab nations. They didn't need US help for that, either.


Israel successfully increased their landmass by a factor of 3 and ended up with a million Arabs to control in it's occupied territory.

That's what happens when you lose a war. Should we return the American Southwest to the Mexicans because they lost the US-Mexican war 158 years ago?


And the world all knows that Israel constitutes the largest single subsidy of US taxpayers every year - to the tune of well over $6 billion annually.

Another distortion: it's $2.5 billion in 2005. Check it. (http://shelby.senate.gov/legislation/ForeignAid.pdf) Egypt is right behind Israel. What's that say? We're giving money to all those Jews in Egypt, too?


Certainly the US has done it's share to destabilize the Middle East.

The US has done more to advance the cause of Arab development than any other nation--including all other Arab nations. The fact they're bent on killing Jews for the sake of killing Jews has nothing to do with American foreign policy. It's another myth propagated by the same people that never gave a damn about Jordanians (now known as Palestinians) in what is now the Occupied Territories.

DancerWealth
09-13-2006, 09:33 PM
And Germans (and many other Europeans) thought that Jews were sub human so it was fitting to gas them.



Welllll...that's not exactly true. They originally didn't see Jews as being sub-human. They were scapegoats because Germany was still in a depression after losing WWI and many Jewish folk happened to begin rising from the rubble. They owned banks, businesses, etc. So for a young German named Adolph Hitler to come to power, all he had to do was point the finger at the Jews and say, "See, it's their fault you are all misserable with no money" and hence you have Christalnacht which soon kicked off the Hollocaust. It wasn't until later did the Third Reich came to power and used the argument that Jews, blacks, homosexuals, etc. were subhuman as a means of propoganda to leverage their rise to power.

azcustomer
09-13-2006, 11:08 PM
The US was not in support of the preemptive Six Day War; the UK and France were, because Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal and shut it down to Israeli shipping. The US forced the return of the Sinai region. And the Yom Kippur War, in which the Syrian's lost the Golan Heights, was started by Arab nations. They didn't need US help for that, either.
It's generally accepted that the US provided air and naval support. Certain Generals have admitted to providing air and naval support to Israeli military actions after they've retired.

That's what happens when you lose a war. Should we return the American Southwest to the Mexicans because they lost the US-Mexican war 158 years ago?
No, but we never 'promised' to return the land to the UN, like Israel has continuously done. And Israel's disrespect of the UN has cost the UN in it's ability to provide stability to any region in the world. I believe it was UN resolution 442 that called for Israel to return the lands to Egypt, Syria, Jordan, et al. And I believe it was President Chaim Herzog who claimed that Israel intended to return all the lands to their original owners, but blaimed th United States for not being more proactive diplomatically.

Another distortion: it's $2.5 billion in 2005. Check it. (http://shelby.senate.gov/legislation/ForeignAid.pdf) Egypt is right behind Israel. What's that say? We're giving money to all those Jews in Egypt, too?
The money given to Egypt is a payoff for the 1978 peace accord. In 1997, the subsidy to Israel was $3 billion in direct foreign aid, $ 2 billion in US loan guarantees, and $525 million from other budgets within the greater US spending program. This is in addition to the other $1 billion of private donations to Israel which qualified as tax deductions. Thus, the total 9 years ago was over $6.5 billion. Cetainly today's dollars are far greater.

The US has done more to advance the cause of Arab development than any other nation--including all other Arab nations. The fact they're bent on killing Jews for the sake of killing Jews has nothing to do with American foreign policy. It's another myth propagated by the same people that never gave a damn about Jordanians (now known as Palestinians) in what is now the Occupied Territories.
The consistent play on words used to muddy up this whole debate is when "Israeli's" is replaced with "Jews". People have a right to be upset with Israel and the actions it has taken. Israel is flat out wrong.

Most Jews living outside Israel are peaceful beings looking to get along with all their gentile bretheren. There are some Jews who look to perpetuate anyone's criticism of Israel's acts of war as Anti-semitism.

azcustomer
09-13-2006, 11:11 PM
So for a young German named Adolph Hitler to come to power, all he had to do was point the finger at the Jews and say, "See, it's their fault you are all misserable with no money" and hence you have Christalnacht which soon kicked off the Hollocaust. It wasn't until later did the Third Reich came to power and used the argument that Jews, blacks, homosexuals, etc. were subhuman as a means of propoganda to leverage their rise to power.

Sort of like during this current long economic slide, blaming all of our problems on the "Arab terrorists", who've killed as many Americans as hunting accidents in the last 5 years.

DancerWealth
09-13-2006, 11:30 PM
So you're comparing hunting accidents to people flying planes into buildings in the name of Allah? I don't get it.

Fan_Dancer
09-13-2006, 11:36 PM
Sort of like during this current long economic slide, blaming all of our problems on the "Arab terrorists", who've killed as many Americans as hunting accidents in the last 5 years.

Very good point, azcustomer. These days it appears that alot of people are speaking of Arabs in the same manner and tone that Hitler used during his attacks and resulting genocide.

azcustomer
09-13-2006, 11:53 PM
So you're comparing hunting accidents to people flying planes into buildings in the name of Allah? I don't get it.

No, I'm comparing crass sloppy hunters with crass Arab terrorists. Neither have much value for human life. And neither are anyone I want to spend time with...

In my book, anyone who looks to spread fear and hatred of another people in order to improve their own position in liife or in the world is a crass simpleton who needs to be ignored.

Going back to the issues relevant to the region, Israel said 50 years ago it planned to give back the real estate it took in the six days war, but blamed the US for not negotiating peace. No wonder we continue pay Egypt a ransom for not retailiating for the over 10,000 dead and 85% of their war equipment being destroyed by the Allied forces. Israel initially claimed thousands of dead soldiers on their own side. Eventually, they agreed they lost just a little over 300. The 30:1 dead ratio seems to hold true to future conflicts, including the most recent with their neighbors to the north.

In 1978, Jimmie Carter negotiated a peace agreement whereby the United States would effectively pay the war reparations for Israel's actions.

DJ Maimed
09-14-2006, 12:48 AM
If this thread was a car I would have to give it a bumper sticker!!


mean people.jpg

Deogol
09-14-2006, 08:10 PM
Here is a GREAT article on this topic you should read:





Here is a great excerpt from it:


Of the myriad examples, one stands out for me: a June 2002 interview on Saudi TV with a 3-year-old girl named Basmallah, made available by the Middle East Media and Research Institute:

Anchor: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?
Basmallah: Yes.
Anchor: Do you like them?
Basmallah: No.
Anchor: Why don't you like them?
Basmallah: Because . . .
Anchor: Because they are what?
Basmallah: They're apes and pigs.
Anchor: Because they are apes and pigs. Who said they are so?
Basmallah: Our God.
Anchor: Where did he say this?
Basmallah: In the Koran.


The little girl is wrong about the Koran, but her words show that, contrary to [Condoleezza] Rice's analysis, Muslim anti-Semitism extends even to the youngest children.



Why read about it when you can see it:



The conversation stated above is in one of the 15 pages of jew baiting and hating found above.

Deogol
09-14-2006, 08:13 PM
If this thread was a car I would have to give it a bumper sticker!!


mean people.jpg

Good point, but I suspect you are really confusing who the mean people are.

~Nikki~
09-17-2006, 05:23 PM
when i'm on a plane and there's an arab on there i fucking FREAK that it's a suicide bomber. as much as i'm ashamed to admit it, i'm judgemental and i'm terrified of arabs.

The fact that you are ashamed of being afraid of Arabs shows that you have a good heart and deep down know it isn't right for you to judge the entire race in such a manner.

It might help you to keep in mind that the odds of you being hurt in an accident or a victim of violent crime by someone of your own race are tremendously higher than you ever being a victim of an Arab or Muslim terrorist.

Darcy Foxx
09-18-2006, 05:22 AM
the fact that i just saw on the news that the crazy muslim activists have murdered a nun today don't help to endear me to them. a fucking nun for christ's sake. that's disgusting.

i have to say that i am more than a little worried that the muslims are going to try to assassinate the pope. some very influential leaders are calling for his head. what the fuck is going to happen if they murder the fucking pope? absolutely unimaginable chaos. we'd be talking world war 3, muslims vs christians. goodbye world.

fuck i hate those people. it makes me so sad and so angry that they're so fucking crazy. i'm really feeling emotional about this at the moment.

Bridgette
09-18-2006, 08:04 AM
This is a great excerpt from Neal Boortz's site, and I couldn't have said it any better:

* Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
* A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
* Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
* Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
* Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.Yeah.

Also, Muslims fly planes into American buildings, killing thousands. Muslims dance and party in the streets at the news.

PaigeDWinter
09-18-2006, 09:27 AM
^^^^ Until they start going door to door to average, non-zealot Muslims in middle class America, I dont hold much water on that. I really dont. My Muslim relatives, and non-Muslim relatives who are from Muslim countries? They're nauseated by what they see the fanatics doing. Its part of why they fled to America.

And really. Is this behavior anything new? Religious fanatics have been violent and downright insane for ... well as far back as they document history. Its just the Muslims' turn, as Carlos Mencia says. >:(

Anyone wanna try and guess how many times I got Terrorist Jokes when I was a kid and folks found out that I am part Libyan? Its kinda like the Count The Beans In A Jar game... Anyone here honestly think I would hijack a plane? Anyone? Bueller?

And while we're here. We could also hate on the rest of my Not So Perfect nationalities... German? Italian? English? Who wants to dwell on those first?

Who here has a drama-free nationality? Anyone with a heritage that didnt have massive bloodshed?

Deogol
09-18-2006, 11:11 AM
^^^^ Until they start going door to door to average, non-zealot Muslims in middle class America, I dont hold much water on that. I really dont. My Muslim relatives, and non-Muslim relatives who are from Muslim countries? They're nauseated by what they see the fanatics doing. Its part of why they fled to America.

The 10,000 arabs in Michigan who marched in solidarity with Hezbollah might need a clarification about what is their problem and what is not their problem...



Of course if they think the problems of the middle east are their problem they are going to want to do something about it yea?



And really. Is this behavior anything new? Religious fanatics have been violent and downright insane for ... well as far back as they document history. Its just the Muslims' turn, as Carlos Mencia says. >:(

Anyone wanna try and guess how many times I got Terrorist Jokes when I was a kid and folks found out that I am part Libyan? Its kinda like the Count The Beans In A Jar game... Anyone here honestly think I would hijack a plane? Anyone? Bueller?

Well you could effectively do that with a smile and a bat of the eye...

Carlo's rules!



And while we're here. We could also hate on the rest of my Not So Perfect nationalities... German? Italian? English? Who wants to dwell on those first?

Who here has a drama-free nationality? Anyone with a heritage that didnt have massive bloodshed?

The question is "Who CURRENTLY has a heritage with massive bloodshed?"


The Germans, Japanese, and Italians caught their shit in the 1940's.

azcustomer
09-18-2006, 11:29 AM
The 10,000 arabs in Michigan who marched in solidarity with Hezbollah might need a clarification about what is their problem and what is not their problem...
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060719/NEWS02/607190396
Of course if they think the problems of the middle east are their problem they are going to want to do something about it yea?

LOL - That was an ANTI WAR rally!!!! - Yea, and it was peaceful too!!! The tag line under the headline in the article says: "Violence called 'appalling'"

Does anyone realize that a lot of the current hostilities arise from Israel cutting payments to Lebanon for 'security'? Part of our subsidy to the region is controlled by Israel who cut off these payments after Hezbollah was elected into office by a democratic vote. Ahh, yes, we fight hard to spread democracy to Iraq but fail to defend a working democracy in Lebanon.


Anyone wanna try and guess how many times I got Terrorist Jokes when I was a kid and folks found out that I am part Libyan? Its kinda like the Count The Beans In A Jar game... Anyone here honestly think I would hijack a plane? Anyone? Bueller?
Paige, too funny. There was a time growing up when the Jewish kids gave me a hard time because I had a German sounding last name. They brought up concentration camps and everything. I got tired of explaining to them that my heritage is Dutch and my Grandparents housed and employed Jewish refugees during WWII. Eventually I learned that whenever they teased me about 'being German', I'd just invite them over to check out our "brand new showers".;D

The question is "Who CURRENTLY has a heritage with massive bloodshed?"

Um, I think that would be the US and Israel.:-\

Deogol
09-18-2006, 11:41 AM
LOL - That was an ANTI WAR rally!!!! - Yea, and it was peaceful too!!! The tag line under the headline in the article says: "Violence called 'appalling'"

Obviously you did not read the whole article carefully - lets see some of the sentiments:

Carrying banners saying "Stop Israeli Terrorism"

We know that the president is being bought by the Zionist lobby. We know that the (U.S.) Congress is being bought by the Zionist lobby.

"The sad reality is that the United States and Israel have decided that they are at liberty to determine the value of human life based on what side of the border you fall. The U.S. is just as guilty as Israel is. History will not forgive, nor will it ever forget, these crimes."

The violence is apalling because it has been applied to Hezbollah. None of them were storming the streets demanding a cease of killing in Isreal.



Does anyone realize that a lot of the current hostilities arise from Israel cutting payments to Lebanon for 'security'? Part of our subsidy to the region is controlled by Israel who cut off these payments after Hezbollah was elected into office by a democratic vote. Ahh, yes, we fight hard to spread democracy to Iraq but fail to defend a working democracy in Lebanon.

If you pay me $1,000 a month, I promise not to kick your ass. Don't you know blackmail when you see it? Why should they fund their enemies? Why shouldn't the populace experience the consequences for their choices?

azcustomer
09-18-2006, 12:10 PM
Obviously you did not read the whole article carefully - lets see some of the sentiments:
Actually, I did.

Carrying banners saying "Stop Israeli Terrorism"
Uh, yes, and what's your point? Many around the world believe that the recent actions of Israel was terrorist aggression.

We know that the president is being bought by the Zionist lobby. We know that the (U.S.) Congress is being bought by the Zionist lobby.
Yes, it is well known that the Zionist lobby is the 2nd or 3rd most influential in Washington.

"The sad reality is that the United States and Israel have decided that they are at liberty to determine the value of human life based on what side of the border you fall. The U.S. is just as guilty as Israel is. History will not forgive, nor will it ever forget, these crimes."
Again, yes, the estimated number of Lebanese killed in the recent aggression is 1,000. That's roughly 1/3 of the count of Americans killed on Sept. 11th. As acting terrorists eliminating a percentage of their enemies' population, Israel is much more effective than Al-Qaida.

The violence is apalling because it has been applied to Hezbollah. None of them were storming the streets demanding a cease of killing in Isreal.
Hezbollah was elected into office. Israel had the opportunity to give them a chance and didn't. A week before the Israeli soldiers were kidnapped, two Lebanese civilians were kidnapped by Israeli soldiers on Lebanese soil and taken across the border. This is not widely reported. Most if not all of the Lebanese dead are civilians. Most of the Israeli targets are soldiers. The dead count for Israel is 163 vs. over 1,000 for Lebanon.

Yes, the Muslims in Michigan were right to demonstrate asking our government to help stop Israel. Just as if the US were backing Lebanon in the conflict, I'd expect Jews in New York to demonstrate asking our government to help stop Lebanon.

Yet, I don't blame the Jews in NY for the actions of Israel any more than I blame the Muslims in Michigan for the actions of a few Hezbollah.

If you pay me $1,000 a month, I promise not to kick your ass. Don't you know blackmail when you see it? Why should they fund their enemies? Why shouldn't the populace experience the consequences for their choices?
Yes, but that's the way the United States set it all up to start with. It's our money that Israel is blocking from Lebanon.

DancerWealth
09-18-2006, 12:14 PM
Most if not all of the Lebanese dead are civilians. Most of the Israeli targets are soldiers. The dead count for Israel is 163 vs. over 1,000 for Lebanon.


I find it astounding that rational human beings living in the modern society can actually believe this nonsense. You do realize it's a known an common tactic for the Lebanese, Al Quaida, etc. to place military targets on top of hospitals, orphanages, and in residential areas right?

azcustomer
09-18-2006, 12:42 PM
I find it astounding that rational human beings living in the modern society can actually believe this nonsense. You do realize it's a known an common tactic for the Lebanese, Al Quaida, etc. to place military targets on top of hospitals, orphanages, and in residential areas right?

If by "Lebanese" you meant "Hezbollah", yes, we know it's a common tactic.

Hezbollah's militia is not state sponsored, so they hide. Not always on tops of hospitals, orphanages, etc. CBS news recently did an expose' on Israeli claims that their bombings of orphanages and civilian apartments were to hit Hezbollah hiden armaments. The expose' showed clearly that there were no armaments in or near the buildings. Israel also claimed they called ahead to the civilians to warn them about the bombs coming. Apparently they called AFTER the bombs were sent. The mothers of children killed answered the phone crying, unable to understand why anyone from Israel would call them to tell them their homes had been bombed.

None of that changes the disparity in the numbers of innocents killed. It's as if we went over to the Middle East and killed 15,000 or so Muslims for the actions of a few terrorists killing 3,000 here.

Oops, never mind...

And, there is mounting pressure within the youth movement in Israel to stop the violence against Palestinians and Lebanese. There is hope that if we recognize Hezbollah as a democratically elected government, then they will not be able to keep their militia secret and hidden, but recognize it as part of the state militia and have them come out of hiding. Sounds like something Israeli's should want, unless someone likes instability in the region.:-\

lunchbox
09-18-2006, 02:22 PM
AZ, take 16 minutes out of your life, http://www.hbo.com/billmaher/video/ and watch the interview with Netanyahu.

PaigeDWinter
09-18-2006, 02:35 PM
The question is "Who CURRENTLY has a heritage with massive bloodshed?"


The Germans, Japanese, and Italians caught their shit in the 1940's.


Doesnt make it any less horrid, though. What I'm saying is that no nation can honestly throw stones. Everyone is in a glass house of historical atrocities. People are flipping out as if no one else but the Muslims have EVER done things of this nature.

MishaBliss
09-18-2006, 03:04 PM
Interesting interview.
I like the theory on European guilt. I see that a bit here. Over a couple of issues...
It's amusing to me when so many Dutchies start in on the evils of the US, and the action taken by them in defence to terrorist attacks in their country when it was the Dutch occupation in Indonesia which saw the birth of the Islamic militant movement. Much like alot of Australia, they do all this whilst sucking up American culture like a sponge.

I agree with you Paige. Everyone is in a glass house of historical atrocities. It has to end. I just think real change can only happen from personal 'inward' revolution. I don't see that happening under the rule of religious fanatisism.

azcustomer
09-18-2006, 03:51 PM
AZ, take 16 minutes out of your life, http://www.hbo.com/billmaher/video/ and watch the interview with Netanyahu.

It was interesting listening to a right wing zealot bashing other zealots. Remember, Netanyahu supports censorship of political ideas conflicting with his own revisionist zionism and closed down a public radio station when he was Prime Minister.

He is the head of the conservative Likud party who looks to expand Israel's borders and settlements. These views only feed the radical militant Islamists.

The challenge we have with Islam is that it is not organized. The fractional nature of the various Islamic leaders and their followers allows for the media to find a few nut cases and paint the whole of Islam with the same broad brush.

Sort of like throwing all Christians or Jews in with right wing fascist Christian or Jewish fundamentalists. The difference is, most Christians and Jews belong to an organized form of the religion. Generally, organized religions do not support hate towards other people.

Oh yea, he again refused to acknowledge Hezbollah. Not suprising. And he tried to compare the Hezbollah bombing of Israel with the Germans bombing of London... Um - when the German's bombed London, most of thost bombs actually hit something. Do any of you remember the hilarious CNN reports with a reporter sitting a half mile away from a farm or open field where the bombs were landing? Those things had no ability to target at all.

If all the "thousands of bombs" were so devastating, then why is the death toll so small?

azcustomer
09-18-2006, 03:55 PM
It's amusing to me when so many Dutchies start in on the evils of the US, and the action taken by them in defence to terrorist attacks in their country when it was the Dutch occupation in Indonesia which saw the birth of the Islamic militant movement.

The Dutchies just needed to prove themselves after being taken over by a Frenchie with a small wee wee...

Gawd, do all of our world problems start with a man with a small penis?

MishaBliss
09-18-2006, 05:11 PM
:D I think they do!
A friend recently reminded me of how guns, cannons etc are all shaped like a penis, and how all are designed to shoot...like a penis.
If one can't have himself his own real live big one, well then ... :D

PaigeDWinter
09-18-2006, 07:14 PM
Gawd, do all of our world problems start with a man with a small penis?


Oh ho ho! Dont get me started! Thats how they may get started, but they get cured by women with LARGE strap ons!

MishaBliss
09-19-2006, 08:11 AM
Heehee :D

MishaBliss
09-19-2006, 08:32 AM
A very interesting article...


Head-in-the-Sand Liberals
Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.
By Sam Harris

SAM HARRIS is the author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the
Future of Reason. His next book, Letter to a Christian Nation, will be
published this week by Knopf. (www.samharris.org)


September 18, 2006

TWO YEARS AGO I published a book highly critical of religion, "The End of
Faith." In it, I argued that the world's major religions are genuinely
incompatible, inevitably cause conflict and now prevent the emergence of a
viable, global civilization. In response, I have received many thousands of
letters and e-mails from priests, journalists, scientists, politicians,
soldiers, rabbis, actors, aid workers, students ‹ from people young and old
who occupy every point on the spectrum of belief and nonbelief.

This has offered me a special opportunity to see how people of all creeds
and political persuasions react when religion is criticized. I am here to
report that liberals and conservatives respond very differently to the
notion that religion can be a direct cause of human conflict.

This difference does not bode well for the future of liberalism.

Perhaps I should establish my liberal bone fides at the outset. I'd like to
see taxes raised on the wealthy, drugs decriminalized and homosexuals free
to marry. I also think that the Bush administration deserves most of the
criticism it has received in the last six years ‹ especially with respect to
its waging of the war in Iraq, its scuttling of science and its fiscal
irresponsibility.

But my correspondence with liberals has convinced me that liberalism has
grown dangerously out of touch with the realities of our world ‹
specifically with what devout Muslims actually believe about the West, about
paradise and about the ultimate ascendance of their faith.

On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as
I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right. This may seem like
frank acquiescence to the charge that "liberals are soft on terrorism." It
is, and they are.

A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world ‹ for reasons that are
perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and
jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a "war on terror." We are
fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise.

This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims. But we are
absolutely at war with those who believe that death in defense of the faith
is the highest possible good, that cartoonists should be killed for
caricaturing the prophet and that any Muslim who loses his faith should be
butchered for apostasy.

Unfortunately, such religious extremism is not as fringe a phenomenon as we
might hope. Numerous studies have found that the most radicalized Muslims
tend to have better-than-average educations and economic opportunities.

Given the degree to which religious ideas are still sheltered from criticism
in every society, it is actually possible for a person to have the economic
and intellectual resources to build a nuclear bomb ‹ and to believe that he
will get 72 virgins in paradise. And yet, despite abundant evidence to the
contrary, liberals continue to imagine that Muslim terrorism springs from
economic despair, lack of education and American militarism.

At its most extreme, liberal denial has found expression in a growing
subculture of conspiracy theorists who believe that the atrocities of 9/11
were orchestrated by our own government. A nationwide poll conducted by the
Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University found that more than a
third of Americans suspect that the federal government "assisted in the 9/11
terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could
go to war in the Middle East;" 16% believe that the twin towers collapsed
not because fully-fueled passenger jets smashed into them but because agents
of the Bush administration had secretly rigged them to explode.

Such an astonishing eruption of masochistic unreason could well mark the
decline of liberalism, if not the decline of Western civilization. There are
books, films and conferences organized around this phantasmagoria, and they
offer an unusually clear view of the debilitating dogma that lurks at the
heart of liberalism: Western power is utterly malevolent, while the
powerless people of the Earth can be counted on to embrace reason and
tolerance, if only given sufficient economic opportunities.

I don't know how many more engineers and architects need to blow themselves
up, fly planes into buildings or saw the heads off of journalists before
this fantasy will dissipate. The truth is that there is every reason to
believe that a terrifying number of the world's Muslims now view all
political and moral questions in terms of their affiliation with Islam. This
leads them to rally to the cause of other Muslims no matter how sociopathic
their behavior. This benighted religious solidarity may be the greatest
problem facing civilization and yet it is regularly misconstrued, ignored or
obfuscated by liberals.

Given the mendacity and shocking incompetence of the Bush administration ‹
especially its mishandling of the war in Iraq ‹ liberals can find much to
lament in the conservative approach to fighting the war on terror.
Unfortunately, liberals hate the current administration with such fury that
they regularly fail to acknowledge just how dangerous and depraved our
enemies in the Muslim world are.

Recent condemnations of the Bush administration's use of the phrase "Islamic
fascism" are a case in point. There is no question that the phrase is
imprecise ‹ Islamists are not technically fascists, and the term ignores a
variety of schisms that exist even among Islamists ‹ but it is by no means
an example of wartime propaganda, as has been repeatedly alleged by
liberals.

In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied
on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore
the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the
Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human
shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the
Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world,
especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold
the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet
liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth
were otherwise.

We are entering an age of unchecked nuclear proliferation and, it seems
likely, nuclear terrorism. There is, therefore, no future in which aspiring
martyrs will make good neighbors for us. Unless liberals realize that there
are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than
Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine
enemies.

Increasingly, Americans will come to believe that the only people
hard-headed enough to fight the religious lunatics of the Muslim world are
the religious lunatics of the West. Indeed, it is telling that the people
who speak with the greatest moral clarity about the current wars in the
Middle East are members of the Christian right, whose infatuation with
biblical prophecy is nearly as troubling as the ideology of our enemies.
Religious dogmatism is now playing both sides of the board in a very
dangerous game.

While liberals should be the ones pointing the way beyond this Iron Age
madness, they are rendering themselves increasingly irrelevant. Being
generally reasonable and tolerant of diversity, liberals should be
especially sensitive to the dangers of religious literalism. But they
aren't.

The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma
of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the
looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who
speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually
fascists.

To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It
does not bode well for the future of civilization.



Copyright 2006 Los Angeles Times

________________________________

Deogol
09-19-2006, 09:39 AM
Doesnt make it any less horrid, though. What I'm saying is that no nation can honestly throw stones. Everyone is in a glass house of historical atrocities. People are flipping out as if no one else but the Muslims have EVER done things of this nature.

It also doesn't mean we should give them anymore slack than anyone else acting like baffoons too. Yes?

I mean it is no excuse to say "But but but GERMANY DID IT TOO!" Well, Germany got a solid ass kicking from the world for acting the fool.

Deogol
09-19-2006, 09:55 AM
A very interesting article...


Head-in-the-Sand Liberals
Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.
By Sam Harris



A very interesting article!

Fan_Dancer
09-19-2006, 10:01 AM
Six pages later and I still I just don't see the logic in any of you judging hundreds of millions of Muslim people around the world by the actions of several thousand of Arab terrorists.

Your hatred and judgement of Muslims or average Arabs based on the actions terrorists is no different than the terrorists and their supporters hatred of all or the average Americans or the "West" based on the violence we have committed there.

If you people are so offended by the attitude and actions taken by people like Bin Laden, Hitler and their ilk then why oh why do insist on taking the same attitude? Why is it ok for you to hate and judge or commit or support violence upon Muslims or Arabs but not ok for others to do so to Jewish, Christians or Americans. I just don't get it /:O

I am not particularly religious but I think this verse from the Bible applies very well to this subject matter and those who choose to paint all Muslims and Arabs as terroists.

Matt. 7:1-5 Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

azcustomer
09-19-2006, 10:47 AM
^^^ Thanks.

I didn't understand most of the article posted because is provided misleading representation of facts.

Bridgette
09-19-2006, 11:18 AM
Your hatred and judgement of Muslims or average Arabs based on the actions terrorists is no different than the terrorists and their supporters hatred of all or the average Americans or the "West" based on the violence we have committed there.Actually, they don't hate us because of any violence we may or may not have committed there ::) I reckon they hated us long before we ever went over there, you can be sure.

They hate us because they think their beliefs are better than ours, and that we have the nerve to support Israel. At the core, even if we never sent troops over there, they would still hate us because their religion tells them to.

I know I know, not ALL of them hate us and not all of them are religious fanatic freaks. But a great many do and are - and they are willing and able to cause an awful lot of damage. Should we go round asking individually, which ones hate us, before we decide to stop them? Something tells me that would be an exercise in futility.

Deogol
09-19-2006, 11:39 AM
Actually, they don't hate us because of any violence we may or may not have committed there ::) I reckon they hated us long before we ever went over there, you can be sure.

They hate us because they think their beliefs are better than ours, and that we have the nerve to support Israel. At the core, even if we never sent troops over there, they would still hate us because their religion tells them to.

I know I know, not ALL of them hate us and not all of them are religious fanatic freaks. But a great many do and are - and they are willing and able to cause an awful lot of damage. Should we go round asking individually, which ones hate us, before we decide to stop them? Something tells me that would be an exercise in futility.


And a great many more hate us than "several thousand terrorists." Anyone can simply watch TV with streets full of 10's of thousands of anti-american protests across multiple countries to know the problem is simply more than "a gang of troublemakers."

That letter posted hits the mark in so many ways when it comes to "liberals in denial" about the scope of the problems facing this country.

Luckily (or unluckily) - more and more people are having their lives touched individual by what is happening in the world.

I and many of my generation have known terrorism and anti-americanism since I was ten years old watching TV while "Good Ole Knows Middle East Diplomacy" Jimmy Carter left over 100 americans hanging in the wind for a year as hostages in captivity in Iran and futily battled airliner hijackings. Oh yea, he is a real expert on the middle east alright. ::)

Military families have known terrorism since the barracks bombings in Lebanon (the marines were there for peacekeeping - so much so that the guards didn't even have fucking ammo in their M-16s) right up to the bombing of the US Cole and various embassies around the world.

And now - civilians around the country know they are individual the targets of terrorism and the sick society developing in so many ME countries from the many hijackings and the world trade center bombings.

The "liberals in denial" are becoming a smaller and smaller segment of the voting republic and have been having a smaller and smaller say in how the country is run simply because they have a disconnect with reality at large.

PaigeDWinter
09-19-2006, 12:49 PM
It also doesn't mean we should give them anymore slack than anyone else acting like baffoons too. Yes?

I mean it is no excuse to say "But but but GERMANY DID IT TOO!" Well, Germany got a solid ass kicking from the world for acting the fool.


No one said anything about slack, actually. I just find it amusing that folks are acting like this has never happened before.

azcustomer
09-19-2006, 12:59 PM
Actually, they don't hate us because of any violence we may or may not have committed there ::) I reckon they hated us long before we ever went over there, you can be sure.

They hate us because they think their beliefs are better than ours, and that we have the nerve to support Israel. At the core, even if we never sent troops over there, they would still hate us because their religion tells them to.
Their religion does not preach hatred of non muslims, just the opposite. They are supposed to respect those who have different faiths as long as those who are different do not attack their church. It's a different yet equal mentality that is taught in traditional muslim faith. In fact, most tradtional muslims are very respectful and caring people, almost Buddist in their attitudes.

This is quite different than the attitudes taught in the Jewish faith, which is that those who aren't Jewish are lesser people because of it. Non-Jews are not respected and have fewer rights than Jews.

There are many sources of unrest in the Middle East and the United States has it's hands in much of it. From our sponsorship of the ruthless and oppressive Saudi's to our subsidizing Israel's drawn out war against all it's neighbors.

Yekhefah
09-19-2006, 01:03 PM
"Israel's drawn-out war against all it's (sic) neighbors"? Excuse me, but I do believe that every war Israel has ever fought has been defensive. It isn't Israel's war against her neighbors, it is the neighbors' war against Israel. And please excuse Israel for refusing to lie down and die so that Arabs and Europeans will be happy. ::)

azcustomer
09-19-2006, 01:13 PM
And a great many more hate us than "several thousand terrorists." Anyone can simply watch TV with streets full of 10's of thousands of anti-american protests across multiple countries to know the problem is simply more than "a gang of troublemakers."
Take the Iraq war out of the equation and ask yourself: "When was the last time you saw anti-american protests in the Middle East?"

You'd have to go back at least 10 years, if not 15.

Luckily (or unluckily) - more and more people are having their lives touched individual by what is happening in the world.
Again, take the Iraq war and 9/11 out of the equation. How many American's lives have been affected by Middle Eastern terrorists? Certainly there are more Americans kidnapped in South America each year than are affected by Middle East terrorists.

Maybe we should just start bashing all Latino's?

I and many of my generation have known terrorism and anti-americanism since I was ten years old watching TV while "Good Ole Knows Middle East Diplomacy" Jimmy Carter left over 100 americans hanging in the wind for a year as hostages in captivity in Iran and futily battled airliner hijackings. Oh yea, he is a real expert on the middle east alright. ::)
Yep, those were bad times. But blaming Jimmy Carter seems rather ignorant. The world has recognized him to be an expert on the middle east. Um, there is that little thing called the Nobel Peace Prize he was awarded for his negotiations between Egypt and Israel.

At least Jimmy wasn't stupid enough to train a bunch of terrorists who later turned on us.

And now - civilians around the country know they are individual the targets of terrorism and the sick society developing in so many ME countries from the many hijackings and the world trade center bombings.
No, the civilians in this country stopped drinking that Kool-Aid a little over a year ago. And what are these "many hijackings" you're referring to? I can't recall any recent hijackings.

The "liberals in denial" are becoming a smaller and smaller segment of the voting republic and have been having a smaller and smaller say in how the country is run simply because they have a disconnect with reality at large.
Um, keep drinking that Kool-Aid 'till November. What's the President's approval rating?

Deogol
09-19-2006, 01:15 PM
Their religion does not preach hatred of non muslims, just the opposite. They are supposed to respect those who have different faiths as long as those who are different do not attack their church. It's a different yet equal mentality that is taught in traditional muslim faith. In fact, most tradtional muslims are very respectful and caring people, almost Buddist in their attitudes.

This is quite different than the attitudes taught in the Jewish faith, which is that those who aren't Jewish are lesser people because of it. Non-Jews are not respected and have fewer rights than Jews.

There are many sources of unrest in the Middle East and the United States has it's hands in much of it. From our sponsorship of the ruthless and oppressive Saudi's to our subsidizing Israel's drawn out war against all it's neighbors.

Damn those fucking Jewish bombers! Who are they to start 14 wars across the world!

Yekhefah
09-19-2006, 01:42 PM
Um, there is that little thing called the Nobel Peace Prize he was awarded for his negotiations between Egypt and Israel.

Yasser Arafat won a Nobel "Peace" Prize too. Does that award still have any legitimacy with anyone?

Deogol
09-19-2006, 01:44 PM
What color is the sky in your world, man? You make me laugh denying all of this - you are an impossible cause. I only fear for those who might take you seriously to make their decisions.


Take the Iraq war out of the equation and ask yourself: "When was the last time you saw anti-american protests in the Middle East?"

You'd have to go back at least 10 years, if not 15.


Just about every Iranian and Saddam military parade had "Death to the USA! Death to Isreal!" on the sides of their missles. "Palestine" always has some bullshit flag burning and effigy burning. Syria has riots in the streets. Every other month Sudan and Somalia have anti-american mobs in the streets.

This shit goes on monthly man! It is organized by governments who need someone to place blame for their lot at the US - cuz Allah knows they certainly can't blame the ass backwards implementation of Sharia law - that would be spitting in Allah's face!



Again, take the Iraq war and 9/11 out of the equation. How many American's lives have been affected by Middle Eastern terrorists? Certainly there are more Americans kidnapped in South America each year than are affected by Middle East terrorists.


I am not being searched at the airport because of south american kidnappers. Nor are they trying to sneak explosives across the borders hoping to take down a building.

Bush hadn't done shit to anyone before 9-11. The islamofascists drew first blood killing 2800+ americans. Yet everyone on "Air America" (aka washed up comics channel) thinks Bush caused all this uproar. The dude is a reactionist. He didn't start any of this shit.



Maybe we should just start bashing all Latino's?


Heat getting a little hot for you? You need to change the subject hoping to call people the usual liberal argument of last resort "You just a racist! Racist!" (spit)



Yep, those were bad times. But blaming Jimmy Carter seems rather ignorant. The world has recognized him to be an expert on the middle east. Um, there is that little thing called the Nobel Peace Prize he was awarded for his negotiations between Egypt and Israel.


Yep - the arab street really accepted the treaty - oh what happened to Sadat again?

I will give you this though - he earned that prize.

But so did Yassar Arafat.



At least Jimmy wasn't stupid enough to train a bunch of terrorists who later turned on us.


Yea. He had a real crystal ball there. Or more like the usual "let them hang in the wind" diplomacy of not doing shit to better the world. They asked for help against the soviets, we gave them help. Our mistake.



No, the civilians in this country stopped drinking that Kool-Aid a little over a year ago. And what are these "many hijackings" you're referring to? I can't recall any recent hijackings.


Wow. Talk about a short memory - I guess pot does that to ya. There were a significant amount of hijackings a mere five years ago. The 80's were littered with hijackings. I remember watching on TV as some arab shot a dude and threw his body out the door onto the tarmac.



Um, keep drinking that Kool-Aid 'till November. What's the President's approval rating?

Perhaps you are young, and your political awakening happened during Bush's watch. That would explain your myopic view on the ME.

P.S. - The democrats approval rating ain't so hot either.

azcustomer
09-19-2006, 01:46 PM
"Israel's drawn-out war against all it's (sic) neighbors"? Excuse me, but I do believe that every war Israel has ever fought has been defensive. It isn't Israel's war against her neighbors, it is the neighbors' war against Israel. And please excuse Israel for refusing to lie down and die so that Arabs and Europeans will be happy. ::)

Israel took land from it's neigbors in the 6 days war. It initiated the conflict and won the war. Since then, there has been one attempt to get the land back forceably in 1973. All the other conflicts have been fought on foreign soil.

I'm just tired of the Zionists lobbists insisting that us Amercian taxpayers pay for Israel's ability to thumb it's nose to the world.

Israel has repeatedly ignored UN resolutions asking them to give back what they've taken. And to add insult to injury, Israel claims it offered to give the lands back after the six days war but blames the US diplomats for not following through.

Yekhefah
09-19-2006, 01:49 PM
Israel isn't thumbing her nose to the world, but she should. I see no reason why a nation should give up land that was legitimately bought and paid for in blood, only to reward murderers for killing civilians and encourage them to kill more civilians. When you lose a war, very often you lose land. That's the way it works. And Israel has every right to the land she fought for and won, especially since it is necessary for her own defense and survival.