View Full Version : The average arab in the street
azcustomer
09-19-2006, 02:08 PM
You've made quite a few assumptions about my political alignment, age, drug use, et al. Or maybe you're just trying to paint 'a liberal'. If by 'liberal', you mean 'think for myself' instead of buying all that the popular media tries to sell us, then yes, I'm liberal. But I'm not a Democrat and I have very conservative yet progressive ideals.
Just about every Iranian and Saddam military parade had "Death to the USA! Death to Isreal!" on the sides of their missles. "Palestine" always has some bullshit flag burning and effigy burning. Syria has riots in the streets. Every other month Sudan and Somalia have anti-american mobs in the streets.
I think you're referring to the times when the Soviets were backing selected interests in the Middle East. Since the fall of Russia, the propaganda against us has lessened. Yes, in Iran they don't like us. Just about everywhere we've imposed economic sanctions against doesn't like us. You'll see more effigy burning of our leaders in Palestine because of the money our leaders give Israel. But notice that the hatred is targeted against our leaders, not the general American public.
I am not being searched at the airport because of south american kidnappers. Nor are they trying to sneak explosives across the borders hoping to take down a building.
Oh, THAT'S what you meant by saying we've all been affected... Airport Security! Um, do you realize that prior to 9/11 our Airport security was so far behind the rest of the world, that the rest of the world pretty much expected something like 9/11 to happen? So we have to wait in security lines like the rest of the world, who cares?
Heat getting a little hot for you? You need to change the subject hoping to call people the usual liberal argument of last resort "You just a racist! Racist!" (spit)
Um, I think you were the one who openly supported bigotry against all Muslims to start with. I was just trying to explain why we shouldn't.
Wow. Talk about a short memory - I guess pot does that to ya. There were a significant amount of hijackings a mere five years ago.
http://www.bts.gov/publications/pocket_guide_to_transportation/2002/html/figure03_worldwide_civil_aviation_hijackings.html
Perhaps you are young, and your political awakening happened during Bush's watch. That would explain your myopic view on the ME.
No, I've just travelled a lot and spent time with people in other countries to learn about their views of world politics.
Maybe you should get out more.
lunchbox
09-19-2006, 02:33 PM
Their religion does not preach hatred of non muslims, just the opposite. They are supposed to respect those who have different faiths as long as those who are different do not attack their church. It's a different yet equal mentality that is taught in traditional muslim faith. In fact, most tradtional muslims are very respectful and caring people, almost Buddist in their attitudes.The majority "moderate" Muslims are no different from the majority non-Nazi Germans before and during WW2. They will sit by and watch. Where is the moderate voice deploring the actions others or fighting to stop them? All we see is "moderate" leaders apologizing and saying it isn't representative of Islam... I say that is bullshit and I'm sick of smelling it.
I forgot... the extremist Muslims will consider them the enemy as well if they speak out against them. So it is best to keep quiet.
This is quite different than the attitudes taught in the Jewish faith, which is that those who aren't Jewish are lesser people because of it. Non-Jews are not respected and have fewer rights than Jews.
Where are you getting your information from? This is called an Islamic belief called Dhimmi (http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/), which comes from Mohammed's Quran. What do Jews call it? Where is it in the "old testament."
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it." - Rabbi Hillel
There are many sources of unrest in the Middle East and the United States has it's hands in much of it. From our sponsorship of the ruthless and oppressive Saudi's to our subsidizing Israel's drawn out war against all it's neighbors.
Because it's OK to rocket Israel, as long as you have poor aim? An equal opportunity hater I see?
lunchbox
09-19-2006, 02:46 PM
You've made quite a few assumptions about my political alignment, age, drug use, et al. Or maybe you're just trying to paint 'a liberal'. If by 'liberal', you mean 'think for myself' instead of buying all that the popular media tries to sell us, then yes, I'm liberal. But I'm not a Democrat and I have very conservative yet progressive ideals.
It's amusing, right?
Oh, THAT'S what you meant by saying we've all been affected... Airport Security! Um, do you realize that prior to 9/11 our Airport security was so far behind the rest of the world, that the rest of the world pretty much expected something like 9/11 to happen? So we have to wait in security lines like the rest of the world, who cares?
Two words, elite access, booyakasha.
Um, I think you were the one who openly supported bigotry against all Muslims to start with. I was just trying to explain why we shouldn't.
About two weeks ago I was with you. I actually took two days off of work and did nothing but think and formulate my new opinion.
No, I've just travelled a lot and spent time with people in other countries to learn about their views of world politics.
Maybe you should get out more.
In my business you deal world wide, or you live in a double wide.
Yekhefah
09-19-2006, 02:49 PM
This is quite different than the attitudes taught in the Jewish faith, which is that those who aren't Jewish are lesser people because of it. Non-Jews are not respected and have fewer rights than Jews.
What a load of flat-out bullshit! I started out in rabbinical school (changed my mind) and have studied Judaism extensively for over fifteen years, and that is NOWHERE in Jewish law. Gentiles have fewer obligations than we do, but that's it. The Talmud teaches that "there are many paths to the top of the mountain," and conversion to Judaism is discouraged because it is better to be a righteous gentile than an errant Jew. G-d chose us for extra burden, not privilege, and we did nothing whatsoever to earn that distinction besides embracing it. We accept and understand this fully, and I have NEVER in all my life met a Jew - from Reform to Chasid - with the mindset you describe.
But then again, if you get all your information about Judaism and Israel from al-Jazeera (as you evidently do), then I can see how you would make such a mistake. ::)
lunchbox
09-19-2006, 02:54 PM
Yasser Arafat won a Nobel "Peace" Prize too. Does that award still have any legitimacy with anyone?
Arafat, Rabin, and Peres won it together. Rabin was assasinated a year later. Peres is still alive.
Yekhefah
09-19-2006, 03:01 PM
Yeah, there is a brand of sucker (the candy on a stick) available in Israel. It is called the Shimon Peres.
This was the team that brought us Oslo, which is one of the worst disasters in Israeli history! I wonder how Peres manages to fall asleep at night.
Deogol
09-19-2006, 03:23 PM
Israel took land from it's neigbors in the 6 days war. It initiated the conflict and won the war. Since then, there has been one attempt to get the land back forceably in 1973. All the other conflicts have been fought on foreign soil.
I'm just tired of the Zionists lobbists insisting that us Amercian taxpayers pay for Israel's ability to thumb it's nose to the world.
Israel has repeatedly ignored UN resolutions asking them to give back what they've taken. And to add insult to injury, Israel claims it offered to give the lands back after the six days war but blames the US diplomats for not following through.
I *do* have a passport and I *have* gotten out there.
These words you have written are full of jew hating and bashing - you're talking like a full blown nazi dude. And I don't mean that as an insult - I mean it as - that is how you are speaking!
What happened when Isreal gave land back to the east - Hamas is elected. What happens when they pull out of the north - they get rocketed and kidnapped.
If I have to choose sides, I am choosing the side with democracy and "more" western values than chop chop slice slice land that refers to people as "pigs" "apes" and "dogs" and who go fucking shooting people and burning shit bonkers over a cartoon.
azcustomer
09-19-2006, 03:30 PM
The Talmud teaches that "there are many paths to the top of the mountain," and conversion to Judaism is discouraged because it is better to be a righteous gentile than an errant Jew.
My experience has been that converts are not fully accepted into Jewish communities. There's that old rule, where your mother has to be born Jewish.
This leaves for a lot of converts who try too hard to be accepted and end up just looking foolish.;D
azcustomer
09-19-2006, 03:40 PM
These words you have written are full of jew hating and bashing - you're talking like a full blown nazi dude. And I don't mean that as an insult - I mean it as - that is how you are speaking!
I'm being critical of Israel and explaining the difference between how Jews treat others in the Middle East and Muslims do. I do not believe that anyone criticizing Israel is automatically an anti-semite or nazi. Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state, which reserves rights of full citizenship solely to Jews.
If I have to choose sides, I am choosing the side with democracy and "more" western values than chop chop slice slice land that refers to people as "pigs" "apes" and "dogs" and who go fucking shooting people and burning shit bonkers over a cartoon.
Um, so why did we overthrow the democratically elected Iranian government and install a tyrant? And why don't we recognize Lebanon's democratically elected government? By the way, did our current President come to office from a fair, democratic vote?
Oh, I forgot: Yahweh be with you...
Deogol
09-19-2006, 04:12 PM
I'm being critical of Israel and explaining the difference between how Jews treat others in the Middle East and Muslims do. I do not believe that anyone criticizing Israel is automatically an anti-semite or nazi. Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state, which reserves rights of full citizenship solely to Jews.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Um, so why did we overthrow the democratically elected Iranian government and install a tyrant? And why don't we recognize Lebanon's democratically elected government? By the way, did our current President come to office from a fair, democratic vote?
Now that - I agree - was a full blown fuck up on the west's side. If there ever was a war for oil, it was taking Mosaddeq out of power.
lunchbox
09-19-2006, 04:28 PM
My experience has been that converts are not fully accepted into Jewish communities. There's that old rule, where your mother has to be born Jewish.
What experience? 27 years a Jew and I only know 2 converts. I've never heard such a thing. Their biggest problem was their family. To automatically qualify as a Jew, your Mother needs to be Jewish, her birth is irrelevant to the standard. That rule is just as old as the ones regarding conversion to Judaism. We are not a prostelytizing faith, it's not supposed to be easy or something done on a whim. BTW, I've NEVER heard of anyone who wanted to live a Jewish life having to convert to Judaism because only their father was a Jew, in the same 27 years.
This leaves for a lot of converts who try too hard to be accepted and end up just looking foolish.;D
Try too hard for anything that cannot be forced, and you will look foolish, but this has nothing to do with Jew's accepting a convert.
I'm being critical of Israel and explaining the difference between how Jews treat others in the Middle East and Muslims do. I do not believe that anyone criticizing Israel is automatically an anti-semite or nazi. Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state, which reserves rights of full citizenship solely to Jews.
I think it makes you look foolish and ignorant. More lies, but what should we expect by now? It's already been mentioned on this board that their are Muslim/Palestinian members of the Knesset, they fight against Jews for those seats. Do you need more proof?
Um, so why did we overthrow the democratically elected Iranian government and install a tyrant? And why don't we recognize Lebanon's democratically elected government? By the way, did our current President come to office from a fair, democratic vote?
It seemed like a good idea at the time. They thought they had the new leaders in their pocket.
Oh, I forgot: Yahweh be with you...
Could you be a little more arrogant? BTW, it's Adonai, dick.
Fan_Dancer
09-19-2006, 05:09 PM
I do not believe that anyone criticizing Israel is automatically an anti-semite or nazi. Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state, which reserves rights of full citizenship solely to Jews.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Unbelievable, now Deogol seems to be saying anyone criticizing the nation of Israel, it's actions or any of it's policies is automatically an anti-Semite. Hmm, I wonder if that include citizens of Israel as well :-\ What is next? Is he going to declare everyone who doesn't hate all Muslim or Arab people a Nazi too?
I guess every last one of us out here in the world who choose not to generalize millions of people based on race,nationality or religion are just pot smoking,unwashed flower children tripping on acid ::)
Oh well. I'd rather be thought of as that type of person than a bigot any day.To each his/her own though.
PaigeDWinter
09-19-2006, 05:22 PM
What is next? Is he going to declare everyone who doesn't hate all Muslim or Arab people a Nazi too?
That would prove to be... amusing. I have Muslim relatives, I have German relatives. Should I hate myself? ::)
Fan_Dancer
09-19-2006, 05:30 PM
That would prove to be... amusing. I have Muslim relatives, I have German relatives. Should I hate myself? ::)
LMFAO
But ofcourse,silly! If you don't though, would you mind passing that joint this way? ;)
Deogol
09-19-2006, 05:54 PM
Unbelievable, now Deogol seems to be saying anyone criticizing the nation of Israel, it's actions or any of it's policies is automatically an anti-Semite. Hmm, I wonder if that include citizens of Israel as well :-\ What is next? Is he going to declare everyone who doesn't hate all Muslim or Arab people a Nazi too?
If you are going to join the conversation then keep up with the conversation. I asked for clarification. I received clarification. I don't agree with his statements about Israel imposing war on three nations at the same time. We agree to disagree.
I guess every last one of us out here in the world who choose not to generalize millions of people based on race,nationality or religion are just pot smoking,unwashed flower children tripping on acid ::)
Oh well. I'd rather be thought of as that type of person than a bigot any day.To each his/her own though.
Which was worse for ya - my mocking a drug habit or your burning desire to generalize MY statements because thinking in detail is too difficult. I don't think I ever said ALL muslims were this or ALL muslims were that. I said tens of thousands are unkind to the US and that is probably a low estimation.
Again, I refer to the liberal's ultimate argument of last resort "You a racist! You a racist!" (spit)
Fan_Dancer
09-19-2006, 06:07 PM
If you are going to join the conversation then keep up with the conversation.
Which was worse for ya - my mocking a drug habit or your burning desire to generalize MY statements because thinking in detail is too difficult.
Again, I refer to the liberal's ultimate argument of last resort "You a racist! You a racist!" (spit)
I can think in detail and I am keeping up just fine,thanks. I am not just now joining this conversation either. Maybe it is you who needs to keep up,lol.
I have not offered what you described as a "last resort" argument of racism. I have presented several points about not judging the majority of any group by the actions of the minority.The fact of the matter is that Arab terrorists and their supporters are the minority of the hundreds of millions of followers of Islam.
But to be perfectly frank, after 8 pages now and after considering every single one the replies in this thread, I do find you and a couple of other people here to be bigoted against Arabs and Muslims.The difference between you or DancerWealth and Yekhefah for example is that she admits she is racist against Arabs.While it saddens me to see people be bigots, I can respect those like Yekhefah who are honest about it alot more than those like you who are obviously racist yet still deny it. Not to say that I have no respect for you but I think you probably get my point.
Ofcourse, I do realize that you and maybe a few others consider me naive or stupid for not hating the world's followers of Islam or viewing them as evil.That is fine by me though because like I said before, to each his/her own.
Or to put it another way, I too can agree to disagree.
azcustomer
09-19-2006, 06:16 PM
What experience? 27 years a Jew and I only know 2 converts. I've never heard such a thing. Their biggest problem was their family. To automatically qualify as a Jew, your Mother needs to be Jewish, her birth is irrelevant to the standard. That rule is just as old as the ones regarding conversion to Judaism. We are not a prostelytizing faith, it's not supposed to be easy or something done on a whim. BTW, I've NEVER heard of anyone who wanted to live a Jewish life having to convert to Judaism because only their father was a Jew, in the same 27 years.
I said FULLY accepted. Converts are never fully accepted by the society, neither are those whose mothers weren't Jewish.
I think it makes you look foolish and ignorant. More lies, but what should we expect by now? It's already been mentioned on this board that their are Muslim/Palestinian members of the Knesset, they fight against Jews for those seats. Do you need more proof?
Giving Knesset representation to Palestinians is an act of good faith. However, more than 90% of Israeli land is reserved for ownership of Jews only.
Secondly, all the people who were captured due to the 6 day war are precluded from being citizens -- and all their descendants as well. That's over 1/2 million people and all their descendants.
Only Jews are allowed to benefit from any of the social welfare programs within Israel.
Basically, Israel currently treats the captured Palestinians like we treated the Indians during the first one hundred and thirty years we were a country. Treating them less than human and generally wishing they would go away. The difference is, Israel was created by the civilized nations to give the Jews their own land at a time when the world considered it important to interfere in other regions where people were oppressed. Israel took the present and later, after they took lands from their neigbors, they started acting very uncivilized to those they captured.
Could you be a little more arrogant? BTW, it's Adonai, dick.
I prefer Yahweh. Try it on for size yourself!
Funny how religions have funny little rules about what offends them. Pictures of Muhammad, speaking or writing the name of God...
Yekhefah
09-19-2006, 07:14 PM
My experience has been that converts are not fully accepted into Jewish communities. There's that old rule, where your mother has to be born Jewish.
Under Jewish law, a person is Jewish if his/her mother is Jewish or if s/he has converted according to legal rules. I'm interested to know what "experience" you have, as you seem to know fuckall about Judaism or Jewish people. I converted formally when I was 18 (started practicing Judaism at 11) and have never had any issues with acceptance in any community to which I have belonged.
To be honest, I wonder if you've ever actually met a Jew.
Converts are never fully accepted by the society, neither are those whose mothers weren't Jewish.
To which "society" are you referring? I'm sure you're not insinuating that my female Reform rabbi who eats shrimp belongs to the same "society" as the Chasid rabbi in a black 18th-century-Poland suit.
Incidentally, when I was an undergrad, I used to drop in at the Chabad house on Friday evenings for schnapps and discussion with the rebbetzin and other young Jewish women, and even though I converted under a Reform rabbi, there was never any quarrel with my being there. The rebbetzin was a lovely woman who was pleased that I was interested in being more observant and learning more.
So quit talking out of your ass.
azcustomer
09-19-2006, 10:03 PM
Under Jewish law, a person is Jewish if his/her mother is Jewish or if s/he has converted according to legal rules. I'm interested to know what "experience" you have, as you seem to know fuckall about Judaism or Jewish people. I converted formally when I was 18 (started practicing Judaism at 11) and have never had any issues with acceptance in any community to which I have belonged.
To be honest, I wonder if you've ever actually met a Jew.
Um, apparently I've known enough Jews personally to know what a shiksa is, and to smell one out. You're not the first I've identified based upon your views. And yes, I'm still good friends with my old Jewish friends who enjoy a lively, yet accurate debate.
To which "society" are you referring? I'm sure you're not insinuating that my female Reform rabbi who eats shrimp belongs to the same "society" as the Chasid rabbi in a black 18th-century-Poland suit..
Good luck representing Bri' Bnai'...
MishaBliss
09-19-2006, 10:47 PM
At the end of the day ALL religion is counter-evolutionary and should just give up in the face of the glaringly obvious truth that peace is now, and can only be now. None of that old shit matters.
(Sorry for throwing the hippy speak in, but it does need to be said...again and again till it is really understood)
azcustomer
09-19-2006, 11:03 PM
^^^^ Thanks again. More wisdom from the friggedy diggedy Dutch...;D
DancerWealth
09-20-2006, 12:36 AM
This is quite different than the attitudes taught in the Jewish faith, which is that those who aren't Jewish are lesser people because of it. Non-Jews are not respected and have fewer rights than Jews.
Okay, I think you're pretty much done with any form of reason or legitamate argument whatsoever. This is beyond idiotic.
DancerWealth
09-20-2006, 12:39 AM
My experience has been that converts are not fully accepted into Jewish communities. There's that old rule, where your mother has to be born Jewish.
This leaves for a lot of converts who try too hard to be accepted and end up just looking foolish.;D
Again, beyond idiotic. I've never even heard of this happening in any synagogue EVER. While the Jewish religion does not believe in proselytizing it certainly greets converts to Judaism with the same respect of someone born to a Jewish mother.
Yekhefah
09-20-2006, 04:57 AM
WTF is "Bri' Bnai'"? Do you mean B'nai Brith? And what on earth would you mean by that?
It looks to me like you've picked up a volatile catchword that actually means something other than what you think it does (you get the slang usage but not the real definition), and you think that by calling me a "shiksa" you will somehow "win" as I run away in tears. Sorry to disappoint you, babe. But it does strike me as interesting that the only people who have called me an abomination are gentiles trying to use that word as leverage when they're losing an argument. Take a number, pal, I've been there before. ::)
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 06:47 AM
I said FULLY accepted. Converts are never fully accepted by the society, neither are those whose mothers weren't Jewish.
Still an unsubstantiated claimed, being argued, even by a convert.
Basically, Israel currently treats the captured Palestinians like we treated the Indians during the first one hundred and thirty years we were a country. Treating them less than human and generally wishing they would go away. The difference is, Israel was created by the civilized nations to give the Jews their own land at a time when the world considered it important to interfere in other regions where people were oppressed. Israel took the present and later, after they took lands from their neigbors, they started acting very uncivilized to those they captured.
How do you rate their civility compared to their neighbors? Are you familiar with who held the land before WW1, and their conquest? Did the Ottoman Turks not happen, just like the Holocaust didn't happen?
I prefer Yahweh. Try it on for size yourself!
It doesn't matter what you prefer, if you are going to try and insult us, get it right.
Funny how religions have funny little rules about what offends them. Pictures of Muhammad, speaking or writing the name of God...
I wasn't offended by it. I was amused that someone who obviously thinks they know it all, really doesn't know shit.
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 07:02 AM
Um, apparently I've known enough Jews personally to know what a shiksa is, and to smell one out. You're not the first I've identified based upon your views. And yes, I'm still good friends with my old Jewish friends who enjoy a lively, yet accurate debate.
How do you identify a shiksa based on her views? Especially since she isn't one.
Tell me more about these Jewish friends, cause I think your thoughts are so twisted. You've been anything but accurate, where did you learn your bullshit?
It's a shame that you know shiksa, but not emet. Cause you are seriously lacking in it.
Good luck representing Bri' Bnai'...
B'nai B'rith, the B prefix on a word means 'in', and that is what the apostrophe is supposed to follow. Leading a local chapter isn't that hard, getting to the national level is more difficult as with any national group.
MishaBliss
09-20-2006, 07:32 AM
^^^^ Thanks again. More wisdom from the friggedy diggedy Dutch...;D
I'm not Dutch. They aren't that wise. :D
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 07:51 AM
I'm still waiting for a response....
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=838132&postcount=102
Jay Zeno
09-20-2006, 08:57 AM
The fact that one criticizes Israel does not make one anti-Semitic (by the way, Arabs are Semites, too). The fact that one criticizes violent outbursts within Islam environments doesn't make one anti-Islamic. Just as the fact that I disagree with Bush doesn't make me anti-American.
It's OK to protest injustice where it occurs, whether with Arabic countries, Israel, Germany, or the U.S. It's OK to protest violent practices where they occur.
If you want to generalize an ethnic group spread over a couple dozen countries ("the average Arab in the street"), feel free. By my reasoning, you then forfeit the right to protest generalization of your own favorite ethnic group. Fair is fair. Bigotry is bigotry. If you can't accept each person on individual merit, then you don't deserve to be accepted on your individual merit, either.
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 09:12 AM
Thank you Jay. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say thank you for taking the time to talk down to all of us.
We really mean it, thanks.
Jay Zeno
09-20-2006, 09:18 AM
I'm not trying to talk down. I claim to be neither smarter nor more perceptive than anyone else here. I was just adding my opinions to the mix. Included in that is my opinion that the present status of the debate is not really all that healthy.
azcustomer
09-20-2006, 09:31 AM
I'm still waiting for a response....
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=838132&postcount=102
First there's the Old Testament - Deut 7-12.
Then there's your Talmud
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile the wages owed him for work.
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: "Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave."
Then there's the current scholars:
University of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against goyim," a Hebrew term for non-Jews. (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).
Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).
Finally, I suspect you'll have a clever response. More from the Talmud:
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
(And Deogol, it is "Yahweh". Or for those who write "G_d", "Y'hwh")
MishaBliss
09-20-2006, 09:44 AM
^^^
Yeah but difference being, most Jews don't live by this outdated belief system. Most Muslims seem to have a harder time letting go of thier outdated shit. They're even willing to kill for it.
Jay Zeno
09-20-2006, 09:55 AM
"Most."
See, the Jews and the Muslims that I know don't subscribe to any of that shit, period.
With an estimated population of 1.3 billion Muslims, 14 million Jews, and as a mostly-inclusive subset of Muslims, 280 million Arabs, let's determine how we conclude "most."
MishaBliss
09-20-2006, 10:12 AM
Most the Jews and Muslims i've met don't subscribe to any of that shit either. I've met them in Australia, the US, England, Netherlands...all 'Western' countries. 'Most' of them subscribe to the Western way of life. I wasn't refering to them though. My bad for using broad generalisations.
Fan_Dancer
09-20-2006, 10:17 AM
With an estimated population of 1.3 billion Muslims, 14 million Jews, and as a mostly-inclusive subset of Muslims, 280 million Arabs, let's determine how we conclude "most."
I am very interested to hear the responses to this question because it gets to the heart of my point in this debate. I have been saying it's wrong to judge an entire group based on the actions of the minority of the group. Doing so is bigoted. I just don't understand their logic in judging and condemning the "average" Muslim or Arab person because of the actions of terrorist or zealots. /:O
The fact that one criticizes Israel does not make one anti-Semitic (by the way, Arabs are Semites, too). The fact that one criticizes violent outbursts within Islam environments doesn't make one anti-Islamic. Just as the fact that I disagree with Bush doesn't make me anti-American.
It's OK to protest injustice where it occurs, whether with Arabic countries, Israel, Germany, or the U.S. It's OK to protest violent practices where they occur.
If you want to generalize an ethnic group spread over a couple dozen countries ("the average Arab in the street"), feel free. By my reasoning, you then forfeit the right to protest generalization of your own favorite ethnic group. Fair is fair. Bigotry is bigotry. If you can't accept each person on individual merit, then you don't deserve to be accepted on your individual merit, either.
Wise words,indeed :teacher: Thankyou, Mr. Zeno!
PaigeDWinter
09-20-2006, 10:53 AM
Wise words,indeed :teacher: Thankyou, Mr. Zeno!
I second that sentiment.
Yekhefah
09-20-2006, 11:20 AM
B'nai B'rith, the B prefix on a word means 'in', and that is what the apostrophe is supposed to follow.
Not in this case, actually. B'nai Brith is Hebrew for "children of the covenant." (Technically sons, but as Hebrew is a very old, gendered language, the male form is used for any mixed-gender group.)
Then there's your Talmud...
Do you have a Talmud? If so, I suggest you go look up your "cites," as the majority aren't in mine. It also bears pointing out that not everything in the Talmud is Jewish law; minority opinions are included, even though they were overruled. There are several rabbis who contend that chicken should not be considered meat, and yet it is. Furthermore, niddah most certainly does not mean "filth." It means "in a state of ritual impurity." A Gentile girl is niddah because she has never immersed in the mikvah (which, BTW, men also do).
I post this not for your edification, as you are still clearly getting your news from al-Jazeera and Martin Luther (who was responsible for a few of your "Talmudic" fabrications). I just wanted to clear things up for anyone else who may be reading.
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 11:24 AM
First there's the Old Testament - Deut 7-12.
Do you mean 7:12? I've never heard of a problem with 7:12, I mean 7:10 says god will destroy those wo hate him. Be more descriptive. The Qu'ran has a version of this as well.
Then there's your Talmud
The Talmud is not a prayer book, it is a compilation of discussions, arguments, and court rulings compiled over a few hundred years following Moses death. The Talmud is not 'faith,' although it does contain arguments about faith.
You think I've never seen Michael Hoffman's (http://www.revisionisthistory.org/) list? Is this someone you side with? Do you believe the holocaust happened? Is he someone you respect?
Lets look, just at the first example, these are not biblical versus, i.e. snippets.
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
Take a look at all of 58b, and tell me what you think:
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_58.html#PARTb
I don't think I could even copy and paste that into one post. just for reference here is what pages from the Talmud actually looks like: http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIB,HPIB:2005-48,HPIB:en&q=talmud+page
Then there's the current scholars:
I am not familiar with any of this, but I'll try and look up the articles when I have some time. IF oyu have links to the articles themselves, that would be great.
Finally, I suspect you'll have a clever response. More from the Talmud:
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Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
Do you think I've lied anywhere?
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 11:45 AM
Look I can do it too, but from a prayer book, the Quran:
-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.
- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).
- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).
- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).
- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)
- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).
- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).
- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).
- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).
- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).
- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)
- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)
- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)
- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)
- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)
- Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55
And Speaking of Paradise...
"There will be "gushing fountains" and everyone "shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine." Suras (or chapters) 55 and 56 of the Quran.
"Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before ... virgins as fair as corals and rubies," sura 55. A few lines later, you might remind them of "virgins chaste and fair ... they shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets."
"The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a.'"
It will be the day, God willing, you spend with the women of paradise...Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling out, "Come hither, friend of God."
Jay Zeno
09-20-2006, 11:52 AM
Like I said, the discussion isn't healthy.
We could rag on just about every religious book out there, couldn't we? Is that what this thread is about?
azcustomer
09-20-2006, 12:09 PM
Like I said, the discussion isn't healthy.
We could rag on just about every religious book out there, couldn't we? Is that what this thread is about?
Thanks, Jay, for getting us back on track. "Scholarly" discussions about each other's faiths are rarely fruitful.
Pointing out flaws in the Jewish faith is no better than pointing out flaws in the Muslim faith, Christiandom, etc.
Besides, we all create our own faith and can choose to take what we want out of our influences.
At the end of the day, we either decide to treat individuals based upon how they act, or based upon bigotry.
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 12:10 PM
Like I said, the discussion isn't healthy.
We could rag on just about every religious book out there, couldn't we? Is that what this thread is about?
It apparently is to some. To me this is what it is about:
The majority "moderate" Muslims are no different from the majority non-Nazi Germans before and during WW2. They will sit by and watch. Where is the moderate voice deploring the actions others or fighting to stop them? All we see is "moderate" leaders apologizing and saying it isn't representative of Islam... I say that is bullshit and I'm sick of smelling it.
I forgot... the extremist Muslims will consider them the enemy as well if they speak out against them. So it is best to keep quiet.
We need to learn from history, so that we do not repeat it. Where do we draw the line? How many people need to die in Darfur at the hands of Janjawee (Muslims), Pakistan (Islamic republic of), Afghanistan (home of the Taliban), and what is left of Yugoslavia?
Do we need to discuss all the victims of the those who spread the faith of Islam, left in the past? They asked Bush and the Pope to convert as well. In case you didn't know, they ask three times, and then they kill you. It's kind of like the opposite of converting to Judaism (where you have to ask three times before you start the process).
Fan_Dancer
09-20-2006, 12:12 PM
Do we really have to go there?
People can find text from pretty much all the "Holy"books of the various religions that call for violence and non tolerance of other religions or the followers of those religions.I could find you text from the Bible that call for violence and I can find you text from the Quran that call for acceptance of non believers.That kind of debate could go on and on without end,
Why do some people have to go around saying my culture/religion/race/nationality is better than this or that persons or even everyone else :boggled:
Why not find the common or positive elements in those who differ from you or hey here is a thought, celebrate and enjoy the differences! It is such a waste to focus on the negative aspects and only the negative.
I have become disgusted with this discussion and am ready to just throw my hands up in the air and say "uncle".Go ahead and live your lives hating non whites or people from a different country, religion or race or whatever the individual case may be.I'm done trying to shed some logic and light on the subject matter.
I'm just going to try real hard to forget that some of you are like this and see if I can find other and more positive things to remember some people in this thread by other than things written here. :'(
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 12:17 PM
Thanks, Jay, for getting us back on track. "Scholarly" discussions about each other's faiths are rarely fruitful.
Pointing out flaws in the Jewish faith is no better than pointing out flaws in the Muslim faith, Christiandom, etc.
Besides, we all create our own faith and can choose to take what we want out of our influences.
At the end of the day, we either decide to treat individuals based upon how they act, or based upon bigotry.
You would have been better of taking the high road before copying and pasting a biggot like Michael Hoffman's work.
Jay Zeno
09-20-2006, 12:24 PM
Well, I thought the thread was about "the average Arab in the street." I agree with FanDancer - had I known this thread was about comparisons of religions and justification for hating one or more of them, I would've left it behind.
So is that how we determine "the average Arab in the street" out of a couple hundred million people in a couple dozen nations? By imposing a "with us or against us" rule on them, and if they don't play by that rule, the average one is against us?
Would I not be just as correct by evaluating the "average Muslim" by basing my opinion on my personal experiences, which have been quite positive? (Or my opinion of Jews on my experiences with Jews, which have also been quite positive?) If my experiences aren't representative of the "average," then tell me why not.
And finally, what's the solution that's proposed for the view that the "average Arab" is either violent or a silent accomplice to violence? Let's have the rubber meet the road here. What's the proposed solution?
azcustomer
09-20-2006, 12:51 PM
You would have been better of taking the high road before copying and pasting a biggot like Michael Hoffman's work.
I don't know who Michael Hoffman is. You've tried to insinuate I'm an anti-semite a few times now. Please stop.
And your link to the Talmud has the quotes provided - Thanks!
PaigeDWinter
09-20-2006, 01:33 PM
And finally, what's the solution that's proposed for the view that the "average Arab" is either violent or a silent accomplice to violence? Let's have the rubber meet the road here.
Or neither? Just like folks in any other belief system/religion, there are plenty who do not take the Could Be Truth texts of their people as 100% have to live by truth. Personally? I dont put much faith in written words, that have been translated and re-translated an infinate amount of times. Too much room for misinterpretation. But I digress. There are plenty of Muslims who are totally against what their fellow believers are doing. Just like every other religion.
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 01:57 PM
I don't know who Michael Hoffman is. You've tried to insinuate I'm an anti-semite a few times now. Please stop.
He's the guy who wrote the list of Talmud quotes you posted, and I put a link to his website in his name if you wish to familiarize yourself with his other works. I don't insinuate, I say. I have not said that.
EDIT: Just so I can be clear, I think you're just being a pick trying to pick a fight that you don't really care about (trolling), or know as much as you thought you did about.
And your link to the Talmud has the quotes provided - Thanks!
I don't recall saying they were not in it. My problem occurs when the quotes are represented out of context. I see numerous sites listing those quotes also saying, the Talmud is the holiest book in Judaism. In reality over half the people calling themselves Jews today have probably never seen one.
When I was in confirmation class, my Rabbi opened one up, showed the class, and said this is what the Talmud looks like, fin.
lunchbox
09-20-2006, 02:05 PM
There are plenty of Muslims who are totally against what their fellow believers are doing. Just like every other religion.
I never said they didn't, but they don't do anything about it either.