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Mr Hyde
09-24-2006, 06:21 PM
Let me say that there is a difference in Having respect FOR the office/position and having respect for the person in that office/position.

I have the former, but not the latter when it comes to Bush. I find it quite convincing that very few other countries in our world feel the same way.

People have a right to their opinions. To say that someone who does not respect their "leader" is "not a good American" is pretty foolish. My question to you would be, when did you give up your right to disagree with and question your leader? This is NOT an anarchy. This is a democracy and being that it is a democracy, it is our responsibility, our duty, and our right to question our leaders and hold them accountable for the decisions that they make. Only the people who follow "leaders" blindly and unquestioningly will find that they were the foolish ones and not "very good Americans".

Always question. Never support someone who does not deserve nor work for that support. And, never let a blind person lead you around because he has "the office" behind him.

It's not respect for Bush, I don't care if you don't like him. It's saying that if you're ok with Chavez. This is not about blind devotion, hell, I said I don't even think much of Bush. But when a despotic nutcase comes to our country and insults our leader, we should be outraged, not supporting him, and several people in this thread did that.

That I have to say this is disturbing in and of itself.

dlabtot
09-24-2006, 06:33 PM
With threads like this, I can't imagine why PP was closed. :loco:


I guess if it harms your delicate sensibilities to witness differences of opinion, you could choose to not read threads on controversial topics.

Just a suggestion.

dlabtot
09-24-2006, 06:36 PM
. But when a despotic nutcase comes to our country and insults our leader

You call Chavez a 'despotic nutcase'.... upon what facts are you basing this assessment?

Mr Hyde
09-24-2006, 09:09 PM
You call Chavez a 'despotic nutcase'.... upon what facts are you basing this assessment?

OK....he's a pseudo-despotic nutcase, he's not all out despotic....yet...he's trying to be though.

doc-catfish
09-25-2006, 09:34 AM
I guess if it harms your delicate sensibilities to witness differences of opinion, you could choose to not read threads on controversial topics.
My delicate sensibilities? You're the one constantly baiting people into petty fights with anyone and everyone on this board who writes something you don't agree with. Pink side, blue side, here. It doesn't seem to matter.

I mean, if what others on here post really irks your that badly, you could choose to not respond. Just a suggestion.

And for the record "differences of opinion" isn't the problem here. Its watching otherwise intelligent people lower themselves to this mudslinging "Lord Of The Flies" behavior, any time discussion of politics is involved, all acting as though what they have to say is gospel, and what anyone else has to say is rubbish.

I mean, hey, screw any empirical evidence that says one's opinion may possibly be based on misinformation. Why rely on the facts when one has a brain armed with an arsenal of prejudice and vitriol? Right? That's how these wisecrack pundits do it on TV after all.

Sorry, but I'm simply pointing that out that this kind of "discussion" is why the administrator of this site shut PP down. Anyone has a problem with me pointing that out, well...there's a nice dark alley a few blocks from here, or you can PM me.
:fight:

lunchbox
09-25-2006, 10:08 AM
First of all, you linked to an editorial - someone's opinion, not a news story - and second, it does not in anyway support the original claim ( although I guess we might as well be blunt at this point and call it what it was - a lie) that he "He locked up some guy for 6 years for disagreeing with him on tv." In fact this opinion piece, despite being full of misinformation, does not mention any such incident.
I was referring to your comments about the media being totally anti-Chavez. So you are saying the broadcast law and the revolution were someones opinion?

I find it hard to believe that people in the USA would back a president who becomes more and more like his mentor (Castro) every day. Lets see if he rewrites the constitution again on what should be his second and last term so that he can stay in power...

FYI - Venezuela has worse voter turnout than here.

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 10:12 AM
My delicate sensibilities? You're the one constantly baiting people into petty fights with anyone and everyone on this board who writes something you don't agree with. Pink side, blue side, here. It doesn't seem to matter.

Again,
I mean, if what others on here post really irks your that badly, you could choose to not respond. Just a suggestion.



No one's posts 'irk' me, lol. Your characterizations of my comments are pure BS. If your think I'm posting inappropriately, I suggest you report my posts to the moderators. I will continue express my opinions, even if there is a danger that it might upset you to read them.




And for the record "differences of opinion" isn't the problem here. Its watching otherwise intelligent people lower themselves to this mudslinging "Lord Of The Flies" behavior, any time discussion of politics is involved, all acting as though what they have to say is gospel, and what anyone else has to say is rubbish.

I mean, hey, screw any empirical evidence that says one's opinion may possibly be based on misinformation. Why rely on the facts when one has a brain armed with an arsenal of prejudice and vitriol? Right? That's how these wisecrack pundits do it on TV after all.

Sorry, but I'm simply pointing that out that this kind of "discussion" is why the administrator of this site shut PP down. Anyone has a problem with me pointing that out, well...there's a nice dark alley a few blocks from here, or you can PM me.
:fight:


I don't have any problem with it, other than it being off-topic. I just think it's funny that it gets you upset.

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 10:13 AM
OK....he's a pseudo-despotic nutcase, he's not all out despotic....yet...he's trying to be though.

I'm still wondering what the basis of your opinion is. Why do you believe what you believe? What facts led you to this conclusion?

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 10:39 AM
I was referring to your comments about the media being totally anti-Chavez. So you are saying the broadcast law and the revolution were someones opinion?

It's pretty easy, really, to figure out what I'm saying. And the method you use to do that is simply to read what I write. LOL.

In this case, what I was saying, was, asking the poster to document his assertion that "He locked up some guy for 6 years for disagreeing with him on tv." - I doubt that assertion is true, so I asked for supporting references. You responded (why I don't know, since you didn't make the original assertion) with an off-topic editorial.



FYI - Venezuela has worse voter turnout than here.

Do you ever do any research before you post to find out if what you are asserting is true or false? Searching on google it took me about 60 seconds to discover that you are wrong: Venezuela has averaged 72.2% voter turnout from 1945-1998 - the USA, 48.3% (http://www.idea.int/vt/survey/voter_turnout_pop2-2.cfm)

azcustomer
09-25-2006, 11:32 AM
I'm still wondering what the basis of your opinion is. Why do you believe what you believe? What facts led you to this conclusion?

I can't speak for Mr. Hyde, but his bombastic rhetoric, his worship of all things that are Fidel Castro, and his use of solely Cuban nationals for his personal body guard are signs that he's a little out there.

Certainly he came into power when Venezeula had squandered all their previous oil profits without having invested anything in infrastructure or education. The educated folk of the region all are wondering if Chavez will really do anything differently, or just use his bombastic rhetoric to keep his people focused on how HE is squandering the money.

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 11:53 AM
Umm, characterizing another person's views (e.g., "his worship of all things that are Fidel Castro") is not an example of a fact, it is just another opinion. That is to say, with this comment, all you've done is express your opinion that Chavez 'worships' Castro, you haven't actually introduced a fact into the discussion.

Bodyguards (http://www.google.com/search?q=chavez+assassination)... Hamid Karzai is protected by American, rather than Afghani bodyguards... does that mean he is 'a little out there'?

As for the idea that 'bombastic rhetoric' makes someone a 'nutcase', or 'despotic'... no refutation needed.

----

Full text of Chavez's address to the UN (translated) (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/09/25/18313661.php)

Mr Hyde
09-25-2006, 12:09 PM
Despotic-He basically does what he wants with whole industries in the country, firing thousands of workers at whim, has used his "security forces" to make sure voting goes as he wants it, and is trying to amend their joke of a constitution to make sure he can be re-elected ad infinitum.

Nutcase-In order to stay in power, he has used bombastic rhetoric to demonize the US to make himself look better to the citizens of Venezuela, and is almost asking for us attack him, even though we basically couldn't give a crap about his country other than it's oil. He surrounds himself with other nutcases like Ahmanjied and he has some kind of persecution complex, as he takes extreme lengths against coups and such.

azcustomer
09-25-2006, 12:17 PM
Umm, characterizing another person's views (e.g., "his worship of all things that are Fidel Castro") is not an example of a fact, it is just another opinion. That is to say, with this comment, all you've done is express your opinion that Chavez 'worships' Castro, you haven't actually introduced a fact into the discussion.

I wish I could find a link to a source, but Hugo has repeatedly said in the press that Fidel Castro is his good friend and his idol. See any video of them together and Hugo just fawns over Fidel like a baby sister idolizes her big brother.

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 12:21 PM
^ Yes, they are allies, and I'm sure you are right that he has described him as a 'good friend'.

Does that make Chavez a 'despot'? A little breakdown in logic there. I'm friends with some Republicans but that doesn't make me a Republican.

azcustomer
09-25-2006, 01:21 PM
^ Yes, they are allies, and I'm sure you are right that he has described him as a 'good friend'.

Does that make Chavez a 'despot'? A little breakdown in logic there. I'm friends with some Republicans but that doesn't make me a Republican.

Hugo has repeatedly said that Fidel Castro is his 'idol'.

And it's pretty well understood and accepted that he controls the government through his thug squads and that his elections are all faked. That, in addition to his totalitarian like control of the industries within Venezuela makes him a despot.

lunchbox
09-25-2006, 01:32 PM
Do you ever do any research before you post to find out if what you are asserting is true or false? Searching on google it took me about 60 seconds to discover that you are wrong: Venezuela has averaged 72.2% voter turnout from 1945-1998 - the USA, 48.3% (http://www.idea.int/vt/survey/voter_turnout_pop2-2.cfm)
Absolutely. Voting was compulsory until 1988 and there was approximately 25% in the 2005 election.

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 01:57 PM
^^ which just shows how ridiculous it is to judge a countries voter turnout by only one election.... considering that in the recall referendum turnout was over 69% (source Norwegian Centre for Human Rights: http://www.humanrights.uio.no/forskning/publ/nr/2004/13.pdf)

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 02:03 PM
And it's pretty well understood and accepted that he controls the government through his thug squads and that his elections are all faked.

No, that is not at all 'accepted' -- it is nothing but an unfounded assertion.


The Carter Center and the OAS acted as monitors of the 2004 recall referendum.


Here is Jimmy Carter's trip report: http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html

Here is the OAS's final report: http://www.upd.oas.org/lab/MOE/2003/venezuela/inf_08_26_04_eng.pdf

lunchbox
09-25-2006, 02:05 PM
^^ which just shows how ridiculous it is to judge a countries voter turnout by only one election.... considering that in the recall referendum turnout was over 69% (source Norwegian Centre for Human Rights: http://www.humanrights.uio.no/forskning/publ/nr/2004/13.pdf)
Why is it ridiculous? I think it is a sad state of affairs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4501890.stm

Venezuelans showed a "broad lack of confidence in the impartiality and transparency" of the process, the state department said in Washington.

The five main opposition parties boycotted the election, accusing the electoral body of bias.

Only about 25% of registered voters cast a ballot on Sunday

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 02:22 PM
If you don't already understand why one election (an election which the opposition boycotted!) does not give an accurate view of voter turnout in a country, it is probably beyond my capability to explain it to you.

At any rate, I'm not even sure what point you were trying to make when you mentioned turnout. Perhaps we could just settle on something we can all agree on, like, 'whatever the turnout is, it should be better', and discuss the underlying point you were trying to make. What was it?

lunchbox
09-25-2006, 03:12 PM
If you don't already understand why one election (an election which the opposition boycotted!) does not give and accurate view of voter turnout, it is probably beyond my capability to explain it to you.
The point of the boycott was evident, and the point well made in my opinion. Look at the total votes for the MVR in 2000, and the total votes for the MVR in 2005. Less than 100K apart, and less than half the "turnout" in 2004 to support Chavez's.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_040820.htm
http://www.eluniversal.com/2004/09/06/en_pol_art_06A489963.shtml

I got to say, what the fuck happened? Two thirds of the people who voted last year heard about a 'boycott' so didn't bother?

lunchbox
09-25-2006, 03:18 PM
At any rate, I'm not even sure what point you were trying to make when you mentioned turnout. Perhaps we could just settle on something we can all agree on, like, 'whatever the turnout is, it should be better', and discuss the underlying point you were trying to make. What was it?
I'm not sure the point your trying to make. Chavez is a hunky dory guy?

A man mentored by Castro, backing Iran's nuclear program and president who is hell bent on bringing the end of days, making the world right, to force the hidden Imam to return. Making the world right, AKA, convert or die, make everyone a Muslim. The hidden Imam being the twelfth Imam who has been living in a hidden cave kept alive Allah for 13 centuries. Think about that, how would you feel if you had been out of the sun for 1300 years, and were suddenly pushed out into the desert... talk about a sunburn...

You think he is better than Bush, either of them for that matter?

azcustomer
09-25-2006, 03:28 PM
You think he is better than Bush, either of them for that matter?

Chavez is better than Bush. All the rhetoric, none of the war, dead, lost billions, etc. etc. etc.

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 03:44 PM
making the world right, to force the hidden Imam to return. Making the world right, AKA, convert or die, make everyone a Muslim. The hidden Imam being the twelfth Imam who has been living in a hidden cave kept alive Allah for 13 centuries. Think about that, how would you feel if you had been out of the sun for 1300 years, and were suddenly pushed out into the desert... talk about a sunburn...


ok.... I'm not sure we are really discussing the same topic anymore.

lunchbox
09-25-2006, 03:46 PM
All the rhetoric, none of the war, dead, lost billions, etc. etc. etc.
no dead or billions wasted?

from you:
"his thug squads"

"HE is squandering the money."


You are kidding yourself if you don't think they are looking for a fight. Having read that speech, and knowing what he has done to his own people. I must say, they really do hate us for our freedom. It makes it harder for leaders like him to control their own population when they know we have something better...

You might have issues with our government, but would you rather live somewhere where the government takes away your property, and business (if you have one). It is seriously amusing when a guy calls your country an empire, after changing his 40 year old constitution multiple times, to suit his mood.

lunchbox
09-25-2006, 03:50 PM
ok.... I'm not sure we are really discussing the same topic anymore.
How so, you are backing Chavez, and that is what the person he has proclaimed as his "brother" whom he will stand with believes.

He is claiming that he will go to war in support of Iran if the UN inspects its nuclear program. Unless he secretly converted to Islam, the joke is on him, cause he is just another kafir in the eyes of Muslims.

Do you think UN inspection of Iran's nuclear weapons is bad?

dlabtot
09-25-2006, 04:18 PM
That is so off-topic, makes so many implied claims that I'm not sure are founded on facts, and so assumes that I hold so many viewpoints that I don't hold and never espoused, that it is not worth responding to.

smartcookie
09-25-2006, 07:46 PM
There's a pretty spot-on editorial in today's WSJ: "Chavez's Inferno" by Alvaro Vargas Llosa.

Casual Observer
09-25-2006, 08:05 PM
Chavez has enough to worry about at home; he's only marginally more popular in Venezuela than GWB is here in the US.

Pride goeth before the fall...

lunchbox
09-26-2006, 06:54 AM
There's a pretty spot-on editorial in today's WSJ: "Chavez's Inferno" by Alvaro Vargas Llosa.
He doesn't believe editorials can contain facts, why would he bother?

smartcookie
09-26-2006, 03:36 PM
True, but that was a post for the folks here who actually read IRL. It was a good piece.

dlabtot
09-26-2006, 03:41 PM
I can't find it on opinionjournal.com ... do you have a link for it?

Mr Hyde
09-26-2006, 05:30 PM
OK you've convinced me. Chavez is a rational, peace-loving champion of human rights and Venezuela and the west are much better off with him at the helm of his country and in control of the huge reserves of oil that it sits upon.