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Deogol
10-11-2006, 09:49 AM
^^^

(Big Grin)

Kinda makes you wonder who the REAL nazi's are in this whole middle eastern escapade.

Stoned idiots needing a bath holding signs up calling Bush = Hitler.

Or the leadership and descendents of actual real nazi's in arab countries who have yet to acknowledge their role in the elimination of the jews (unlike Germany has been doing all these years.)

If one wants real interesting history about who is closer related to Nazism, Saddam Hussein (raised by his uncle who was a full blown nazi) or George Bush (who ignorant hippies try to compare to Hitler) - do a bit of googling.

GURU OF $IN
10-11-2006, 10:51 AM
zionism=nazism

no one is better than the other.

lunchbox
10-11-2006, 11:16 AM
zionism=nazism

no one is better than the other.
2/3rds of the Jews in Europe died along with 3 million others because of nazism. There are 3x the number of Arabs in Israel now then in 1948.

History would disagree with you.

EDIT: I'm implying labeling zionism as nazism, is way to broad, as there are many peaceful zionists. Just like there are many Muslims who have not sharpened Islam into a sword. Not that some victims are better than others.

azcustomer
10-11-2006, 01:04 PM
2/3rds of the Jews in Europe died along with 3 million others because of nazism. There are 3x the number of Arabs in Israel now then in 1948.


The number of Arabs grew probably because they took over 1/2 million refugees in the 1967 war?

It's not as bad as the Nazi's were to the Jews. But the treatment of refugees is horrendous. Prison camps and torture. Indescrimnant killing.

Fan_Dancer
10-11-2006, 01:24 PM
Okay, Fan. I'll tell my friend whose house is regularly rattled by terrorist fire, and who has spent two harrowing nights under the kitchen table cradling her little daughter in the dark as bombs explode around her, that no one should protect her. After all, if her daughter is killed and no one protests or fights back, that'll make you "more sympathetic to the situation," and that's what really matters, right?

:loco:

I never said that no one should protect their kids. I also never said anything about not protesting. I have spoken about non violent protest and finding a way to not need protection from attack in the first place.

Yek, do you remember your statement about wiping out an entire Muslim village and all it's people for every single Jewish person who dies. Is that your idea of protest? The murder of innocents?

Is the murder of innocent Jewish people as protest by Muslims acceptable to you? If not then why is acceptable if it's Muslims who suffer and die?

Is a Muslim mother and her children not as worthy of life as a Jewish women and children? I find them equally worthy of being safe and alive. Obviously you do not. :'(

azcustomer
10-11-2006, 01:28 PM
Lies.
The land Israel is on was lost when the Ottoman Turk Empire was put down. The UN put Britain in charge of the Middle East, and France in charge of Northern Africa.
This is called history, you can look it up.
It was a UN resolution (I gues that was mostly Britain at the time), divided the British Mandate of Palestine into two areas. A small sliver became Israel, and the much larger portion became Jordan.

Please stop - this is the third time I'm looking history up for you.

I believe you are trying to refer to the aforementioned Balfour Declaration. Britan decided to split it up and the League of Nations ratified the part about creating Palestine:

"The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917) asserted that the British Government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_%28region%29) of a national home for the Jewish people"..."it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". This declaration was supported by a number of other countries, including the United States, and became more important following World War I, when the League of Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations) assigned the United Kingdom the Palestine mandate."

Israel took it upon itself to declare itself a country the day before the British Mandate expired:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Establishment_of_the_State_of_I srael

The Arab states refused to recognize this declaration. Why should we care?

I didn't know america was that, I thought point, click, and scroll was acceptable.
I don't understand this gibberish - but if you're looking for links to a history of Israeli terror, look earlier in the thread.

Whats Ironic is that their was a Muslim Nazi SS division, led by the Mufti of Jerusalem, who was friends with Hitler.
And this has what to do with Israel? Which didn't exist at the time?

The world doesn't care enough. They should have intervened when Israel was attacked by 7 other countries in 1948, but they didn't, and you have yet to respond to this.
Why should we have responded? Israel declared itself a state and needed to protect itself. And by the way, it was Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq who took action. That's 5, not 7.
[/QUOTE] They should have intervened when Egypt kicked out the UN forces on the Sinai pennisula which ultimatley led to the 6 day war, which you love to bring up... Lucky for you they didn't cause it gave you something to point at and blame everything that follows on the Jews...[/QUOTE]
Again, why should the United States do anything to protect Israel? What importance is it to us? Why should we risk the lives of our children so Israel can continue to stir up trouble? Any Jews who are worried about their safety should just move to Europe or America.

Yekhefah
10-11-2006, 02:38 PM
I never said that no one should protect their kids.

Um, yeah, you did. The Israeli military is defending Israeli children (and adult civilians) by demolishing terrorist nests and fighting back however they can. I'm curious as to what you think would happen if the Arabs started firing rockets at my friend's moshav again and the Israeli soldiers did nothing about it. You think the Arabs would just lay down their weapons and come running with hugs and homemade cookies?


Is a Muslim mother and her children not as worthy of life as a Jewish women and children?

People innately place their own people over others; it's how we function. So obviously if I have to choose between one or the other, my loyalties are to the Jews. Of course I'd rather everyone just got along. But since the Muslim mother chooses to send her children to blow up my friend's children, I'd have to say we treat her life with equal reverence as she treats ours.

lunchbox
10-11-2006, 03:25 PM
There you go again, making us do our work twice, or three times:

From the Wiki article on the Haganah:

"In 1936 the Haganah fielded 10,000 mobilized men along with 40,000 reservists. ...Although the British administration did not officially recognize the Haganah, the British security forces cooperated with it by forming the Jewish Settlement Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Settlement_Police), Jewish Auxiliary Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jewish_Auxiliary_Forces&action=edit) and Special Night Squads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Night_Squads)."
Talk about multiple bites at the apple... Considering that is the paragraph after the one I posted, about it's reason for forming: Arabs rioting over Jews escaping death and persecution in Europe by immigrating to the area.


Um, you reference a person who was never considered a "Leader" of Palestinians. And go back and read your reference - he didn't ask them to speed up the work, he just asked Germany NOT to send any to Palestine.
The Mufti of Jerusalem not a leader? Please check your sources for what a Mufti is, and the history of this man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni
- founded an anti-zionist society at Al-Azhar University in Cairo
- turned from a Damascus-oriented Pan-Arabism to a specifically Palestinian ideology centered on Jerusalem and expelling the Jews and foreigners from Palestine, thus restoring it to Dar al-Islam.
- became Mufti in 1921, selected from a group of 5 by the British High commissioner (Ambassador), who actually was a Jew.
- quoting the wiki here: "In 1922, al-Husayni was elected President of the newly formed Supreme Muslim Council, which controlled the Waqf funds worth annually tens of thousands of pounds, the orphan funds, worth annually about 50,000 pounds, besides controlling the Islamic (Shariah) courts in Palestine. These courts, among other duties, appointed teachers and preachers."
- "In 1936, however, they achieved a measure of unity when all the Palestinian groups joined to create a permanent executive organ known as the Arab Higher Committee under al-Husayni's chairmanship."
- On 19 April 1936, an Arab rebellion broke out in Palestine. Soon the rebellion had spread across the country, openly and officially led by the Mufti and his Arab Higher Committee, founded a week after the rebellion had started. The Committee, with the Mufti presiding, proclaimed an Arab general strike and called for nonpayment of taxes and shutting down municipal governments. In addition, the Committee demanded an end to Jewish immigration, a ban on land sales to Jews, and national independence. Jewish colonies, kibbutzim and quarters in towns, became the targets for Arab sniping, bombing, and other terrorist activities.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Islamic_Congress
"The World Islamic Congress convened in Jerusalem on 7 December, 1931. It was attended by 130 delegates from 22 Muslim countries. The Congress called on Moslem states to avoid trade with the Jewish community in Palestine.

The Congress was called at the behest of Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, and Shawkat Ali, leader of the Indian Caliphate Committee,"

Do you wish to continue disputing this man's leadership?


As for Israel's continued insistence on terrorizing all muslims:

"The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917) asserted that the British Government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_%28region%29) of a national home for the Jewish people"..."it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". This declaration was supported by a number of other countries, including the United States, and became more important following World War I, when the League of Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations) assigned the United Kingdom the Palestine mandate."
In 1917 Israel was terrorizing muslims? What the fuck? It was written to a Jew, not by a Jew, and is nothing but a letter. Please explain how a letter directed at one area is to apply to "all muslims" and then how this is Israels agenda, ie supports your claim of: "Israel's continued insistence on terrorizing all muslims"


And that Ottoman Turk empire you are referring to um, came out of Macedonia? That's the "don't call us Macedonia because Greece won't let us use it, call us the Former Yugoslavian Republic".
Relevance? The Ottoman Turk Empire 1299 - 1923, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire, as in what the Middle East, Northern Africa, and South Eastern Europe was composed of just before WW1.

lunchbox
10-11-2006, 03:26 PM
(continued)



And lest we all forget Israel's state sponsored terrorism:
The Lavon Affair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

" In the summer of 1954 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954) Colonel Binyamin Gibli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binyamin_Gibli), the chief of Israel's military intelligence, Aman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aman_%28IDF%29), initiated Operation Suzannah ... The goal of the Operation was to carry out bombings and other acts of sabotage in Egypt with the aim of creating an atmosphere in which the British and American opponents of British withdrawal from Egypt would be able to gain the upper hand and block the withdrawal.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair#endnote_fn_1)"
There you go again, lets not respond to stuff, and just post more about those DIRTY JEWS!!!!

In my history book, 1954 came after 1948, and comes even after 1929 riots and Massacre at Hebron, which comes after the 1920 riots. Why do you dig for the one thing to use against the Jews, when there are literally hundreds of thousands of things agaisnt the militant Islam?

[/i]"The Egyptian government used the trial as a pretext for a series of efforts to punish Egyptian Jews culminating in 1958 when, following the Suez Crisis, 25,000 Jews were expelled by Egypt and at least 1,000 ended up in prisons and detention camps. "[/i]
A wee bit of irony, unless you wish to claim they were all invovled.

You seem like the kind of guy who is pissed of at the Jews for fleeing slavery in Egypt becasue it would be nice to have more pyramids... We are not arguing history at this point, we are arguing your personal ideolgy.

Al-Queda attacked New York, London, Madrid, etc. etc. killing thousands; You defend their actions by pointing at Israel. Tell me the though process here, maybe you can make me understand where you are coming from. In my mind, they would still be going after power in this manner, and Israel is just a red herring.

------side note-----------

Ladies and Gentleman, I <3 Spain, NOT!!!
- Spain joined the invasion of Iraq.
- Spain pulled out after they were bombed by Al Queda.
- Iran supports Al Queda.
- Iran and Venezuela are brothers.
- Noone would sell weapons to Venezuela/Chavez.
- Spain is now selling billions of Euros of weapons and F16 parts to Venezuela...

Am I reaching too far?

GURU OF $IN
10-11-2006, 03:28 PM
Um, yeah, you did. The Israeli military is defending Israeli children (and adult civilians) by demolishing terrorist nests and fighting back however they can.

and to defend itself, you have to throw banned wepaons at children, poison people's flocks, harrass their children while they go to school, kill them while they are praying, break into their homes and kill innocent families etc...?

remember this thread is dedicated to extremist jews. I dont care if your government kills a palestinian terrorist. I do care about when an Israeli extremist kills an innocent palestinian and gets away with it and when the rabbis encourage such behaviour and the government does nothing about it.


as you realize, when people mentioned islamic extremists here, we didnt back them up by bringing up what jewish extremists do. We condemned them both.
So dont defend jewish extremism by giving up excuses like arabs do this and that....

stand up and condemn evil among your people. Its ok to admit it. you will be doing a great thing.

lunchbox
10-11-2006, 03:37 PM
remember this thread is dedicated to extremist jews. I dont care if your government kills a palestinian terrorist. I do care about when an Israeli extremist kills an innocent palestinian and gets away with it and when the rabbis encourage such behaviour and the government does nothing about it.
You don't see the bias there?

You never did respond to my comments about the disparity in your comments against the 14 million Jews vs. the 1.4 billion Muslims in the world.

You posted about two Rabbi's quotes, wow.

http://memritv.org/

Dig through here for while, and watch over a thousand videos of Islamic government officials and religious leaders appearing on various Middle Eastern TV espousing hate to the west, especially the US and Israel/Jews.

lunchbox
10-11-2006, 03:41 PM
as you realize, when people mentioned islamic extremists here, we didnt back them up by bringing up what jewish extremists do. We condemned them both.
So dont defend jewish extremism by giving up excuses like arabs do this and that....
Then could you please explain to me what azcustomers posts are about? You can find numerous instances where he totally ignores a response to something he posted and posts entirely new material on Jewish extremists...

EDIT: in case you forgot, he blames it all on the Jews...

lunchbox
10-11-2006, 03:44 PM
The number of Arabs grew probably because they took over 1/2 million refugees in the 1967 war?

It's not as bad as the Nazi's were to the Jews. But the treatment of refugees is horrendous. Prison camps and torture. Indescrimnant killing.
Is it any worse than something your own country has done?

lunchbox
10-11-2006, 04:46 PM
Please stop - this is the third time I'm looking history up for you.

...snip...

The Arab states refused to recognize this declaration. Why should we care?
Covered in my last post.


I don't understand this gibberish - but if you're looking for links to a history of Israeli terror, look earlier in the thread.
I posted a link to a web page with pictures from Gaza 2005. 'you're response was don't make us do your work,' for whatever the fuck that was supposed to mean...

I left off the word 'lazy,' 10,000 pardons massa, I am but a lowly Jew...

s has what to do with Israel? Which didn't exist at the time?
Don't get snippy just because you didn't know the horse you were backing.


Why should we have responded? Israel declared itself a state and needed to protect itself. And by the way, it was Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq who took action. That's 5, not 7.
Why, because have a history of fighting for freedom and democracy. Why didn't the Palestinians beat them to the punch? Iraq did it in 1932.

I didn't start the what if game, you did. What makes the life of a Palestinian so much more valuable than an Israeli to you that you are willing to make a theoretical call to help one, but not the other?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#Saudi_Arabia_and_Yemen

I knew it was 7 nations from years of being Jewish. When they teach you about it in Sunday school, that's what they tell you. No one ever mentioned the fact that they sent tiny forces. But, I did also learned that 30,000 Jews from the area served in the British Army, for the allies, which was probably a waste of talent.


Again, why should the United States do anything to protect Israel? What importance is it to us? Why should we risk the lives of our children so Israel can continue to stir up trouble? Any Jews who are worried about their safety should just move to Europe or America.
Technically, it was the US that made the Brits hand over the area to the UN, who lost the area giving Egypt a better point to mass troops. Israel's knew this would happen (and it did), their actions to prevent it is what the Lavon affair you mentioned stemmed from.

Why is everything a one way street against the Jews for you?

By the same token, why don't the Palestinians move? Jews have been kicked around for thousands of years. Given the chance to leave a bad situation, we do modern day example: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ejhist.html#operation1

Again, just as the last one why should we help the Palestinians, but not Jews?

azcustomer
10-11-2006, 04:57 PM
Talk about multiple bites at the apple... Considering that is the paragraph after the one I posted, about it's reason for forming: Arabs rioting over Jews escaping death and persecution in Europe by immigrating to the area.
Check the dates - who was killing and persecuting Jews in 1920?


In 1917 Israel was terrorizing muslims? What the fuck? It was written to a Jew, not by a Jew, and is nothing but a letter. Please explain how a letter directed at one area is to apply to "all muslims" and then how this is Israels agenda, ie supports your claim of: "Israel's continued insistence on terrorizing all muslims"

The Balfour Letter is what the Jews used to justify their claim to Israeli land when they declared their independence. What I was pointing out is that they have been in continued violation of the document which they used to justify their very existence.

azcustomer
10-11-2006, 05:05 PM
Then could you please explain to me what azcustomers posts are about? You can find numerous instances where he totally ignores a response to something he posted and posts entirely new material on Jewish extremists...

EDIT: in case you forgot, he blames it all on the Jews...

You continue to make generalized claims about my not responding to something you wrote. There is a lot of what you've written which is not worthy of responding to, because it just doesn't make sense and doesn't respond to my original post, but some other side issue you've decided to bring up. Sort of like your claim that I was defending Al Qaida - I never did such a thing, so why respond to your lame claim?

I don't blame it all on the Jews. But some Jews have as much, if not more blame on their hands than the Arabs.

azcustomer
10-11-2006, 05:09 PM
Is it any worse than something your own country has done?

Things look bleak in Iraq at the moment. And I do NOT support our actions there. The failed war was started by a bunch of Zionist neocons.

All that said, we don't have prison camps holding mass numbers of refugees. We are working with the locals to try to establish a stable government for themselves with the goal to leave. Once we are able to corral the ridiculous actions of our current President, things will get better. Certainly we won't vote Cheney to take over.

azcustomer
10-11-2006, 05:16 PM
Again, just as the last one why should we help the Palestinians, but not Jews?

In summary, I haven't said we should help the Palestinians, just stop helping Israel.

You erroneously keep posting Jews and Israel as a 1 for 1. Not all Jews are Israeli and certainly not all of them support Israel's actions. Actually, there is more dissent amongst Israeli Jews than American Jews for Israeli policies towards Palestine.

Probably because they have to see things like the pictures of Israeli misdeeds that were posted earlier in the thread.

Fan_Dancer
10-11-2006, 06:21 PM
since the Muslim mother chooses to send her children to blow up my friend's children, I'd have to say we treat her life with equal reverence as she treats ours.

and by doing so you would be no better than those who would attack your friend.






People innately place their own people over others

Sorry to inform you but not all people are like you. Plenty of us out here don't go around thinking that our race/gender/nationality/religion is more worthy of life and safety than anyone and everyone else.


Um, yeah, you did.

Um, no I didn't. I have done nothing but oppose harming or killing innocent people. That would include both Jewish and Muslim.

Why is it ok with you to see any child die? If it wasn't ok with you then you would oppose all the violence- from both sides. But you don't, instead you encourage more and more death to occur.

You actually call for the destruction of entire Muslim cities and all it's people for every single death that occurs of your people. You don't want peace. Not even close :'(

lunchbox
10-12-2006, 07:40 AM
In summary, I haven't said we should help the Palestinians, just stop helping Israel.
What is the meaning of this, "Maybe the rest of the world should intervene to make sure nothing like that ever happens again." I guess we are just outta this world...

You erroneously keep posting Jews and Israel as a 1 for 1. Not all Jews are Israeli and certainly not all of them support Israel's actions. Actually, there is more dissent amongst Israeli Jews than American Jews for Israeli policies towards Palestine.
I doubt this actually cause you any confusion.

Probably because they have to see things like the pictures of Israeli misdeeds that were posted earlier in the thread.
Welcome to Pallywood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood).

Yekhefah
10-12-2006, 09:24 AM
I'm tired of repeating myself, so this is the last I have to say on this subject...

I would love to see the violence stop. Of course I don't want to see innocents killed, whether Jewish or Muslim. However, I am not convinced that Israel's giving up would mean an end to violence; it would just mean MORE Jewish death, since the Arabs aren't going to stop fighting for as long as Israel is there. So with that in mind, I believe that self-defense is moral and necessary.

That is my position. I'm done now.

azcustomer
10-12-2006, 10:29 AM
What is the meaning of this, "Maybe the rest of the world should intervene to make sure nothing like that ever happens again." I guess we are just outta this world...
Now you're arguing against stopping another holocaust?

I doubt this actually cause you any confusion.
But seems to have caused you a great deal of confusion.

Welcome to Pallywood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood).
Some may disagree - like the Economist?

"
However, in informational as well as military terms, the Palestinians are far outgunned. Israel has press officers in every ministry and embassy and an annual PR-training course in Washington, DC, for selected spokespeople. The foreign ministry has a 24-hour monitoring centre which analyses coverage in several languages, counts the airtime given to Israeli and Palestinian spokespeople down to the last second, and sends out real-time electronic reports on it to officials. Even so, says Mr Meir, he is pushing to make things more systematic, to get his colleagues to weigh up how every decision will play in the media, especially the foreign media.

The Israeli army, too, has learned lessons during the second intifada (which began in 2000), according to Ruth Yaron, its chief spokeswoman. Soldiers are trained on how to act around cameras. Press officers take part in planning operations—helping, for instance, to time them to match media deadlines—and army camera teams go along on them, providing footage (eg, of arms-smuggling tunnels and would-be suicide bombers caught at checkpoints) that goes out to the media."

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3798515

And the world of public opinion continues to rail Israeli policy:

Protests held cross Britain against Israeli attacks against Lebanon
http://english.people.com.cn/200607/23/eng20060723_285724.html

Scots protests at Israeli action
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5206408.stm

Protests against Israel in Berlin, Cairo and Amman
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060721/wl_nm/mideast_protests_dc_1

Hundreds of Muslims in Hindu-majority India held angry protests Friday against Israeli air strikes on Lebanon
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/11877.asp

Turkey: Protests At Israeli Embassy in Ankara
http://www.indiadaily.com/breaking_news/75878.asp

Israeli protest: "STOP SHOOTING! START TALKING!"
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en

World protests against Israeli raids
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7549F47F-725C-49E3-85C0-C5E5F0B4D59A.htm

Protests Held Against Israel as Bombardment of Lebanon Continues
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-21-voa37.cfm

Rallies across Europe Protest Israeli Offensive in Lebanon
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/world/060722b_wire.aspx

Muslims in Asia Protest Israeli Attacks
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/Middle_East/Asia_Mideast_Protest.html

lunchbox
10-12-2006, 10:45 AM
I'm tired of repeating myself, so this is the last I have to say on this subject...

I would love to see the violence stop. Of course I don't want to see innocents killed, whether Jewish or Muslim. However, I am not convinced that Israel's giving up would mean an end to violence; it would just mean MORE Jewish death, since the Arabs aren't going to stop fighting for as long as Israel is there. So with that in mind, I believe that self-defense is moral and necessary.

That is my position. I'm done now.
Whil I'm not repeating myself, I agree with Yek, however I will provide more information.

The Palestinians started the current rash of violence in Israel. I know you think everyone shares responsibility, but I need to fight ignorance with knowledge (as Fan_Dancer put it).

Over it's life since 1947, Israel was more peaceful than ever from 1993 early 2000. The first Intifada had ended, and people were being civil. Without any negotiating or counteroffers Arafat walked away from the ongoing peace talks.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php
Roughly two months later this bout of violence begins.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_start.php
You can even read where they claim responsibility for it in the second link.

Why should it be the Israeli's to stand down first, and what would give them an indication that it would have any effect on the current attacks? Why do they need to take blame for stirring up trouble when someone else has already claimed responsibility?

Fan_Dancer
10-12-2006, 01:35 PM
I'm tired of repeating myself, so this is the last I have to say on this subject...

I would love to see the violence stop. Of course I don't want to see innocents killed, whether Jewish or Muslim. However, I am not convinced that Israel's giving up would mean an end to violence; it would just mean MORE Jewish death, since the Arabs aren't going to stop fighting for as long as Israel is there. So with that in mind, I believe that self-defense is moral and necessary.

That is my position. I'm done now.

While I find myself also repeating what I have said I must remind you that I have not said said that Israel should just give up. Not at all. I just don't think that killing innocent people( especially when it is intentional) has or is ever going to help them find peace within their borders. I also want to make it clear that I would say the EXACT same thing to those you define as your enemy.

If you don't want to continue discussing the subject with me, fair enough. I won't press the issue with you any further. We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

I wish you all the best :)

Fan_Dancer
10-12-2006, 01:52 PM
Why should it be the Israeli's to stand down first, and what would give them an indication that it would have any effect on the current attacks? Why do they need to take blame for stirring up trouble when someone else has already claimed responsibility?

I do not think Isreal should "take the blame" I think the "blame" is shared by both sides of this conflict. There have been unethical acts of violence commited by both sides and therefore neither side is "better" than the other.

As for why either side should stop killing innocent people- isn't that self explanitory?

Now if you want to know why it might be better to find a non- violent compromise to the conflict- well my answer is that it could likely mean the end of bloodshed. That is what you want, isn't it ?

Also has the current course of action been working? Has suicide bombs in Israel or blowing up villages in Muslim lands ended the conflict?

Has violent action (especially that done not in accordance of the standard rules of war) done ANYTHING to help fix the problems that have gone on for so very many years now?

What makes you think that constent trading of violent attacks on innocent people of either side is going to bring peace to Isreal?

lunchbox
10-12-2006, 02:14 PM
Now you're arguing against stopping another holocaust?

you: Someone should intervene.
me: Why didn't anyone intervene before?
you: Why should we intervene for anyone? I said we should stop helping Israel.
me: (re-quote your original call for intervention), why the contradiction?
you: Now you're arguing against stopping another holocaust?

You make a statement, I question it, you contradict your previous statement, I question the contradiction, so now I'm in favor of a holocaust? Oh man, you're good...

This is so weird, I have to ask, are you fucking with me, or are you being serious about this? That is a pretty big lump of shit to stuff in the mouth of someone who is questioning your ideology. It's even better than 'if you are not with us, you are against us' or 'if you don't support the President, you don't support our troops.'


Some may disagree - like the Economist?

..snip...

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3798515
I don't see this as a disagreement. One is about a PR machine, the other is about fabrication. I believe both stories, do you need help with the difference?



And the world of public opinion continues to rail Israeli policy:

...snip...
Those have nothing to do with Israeli and Palestinians, and everything to do with Israel's invasion of Lebanon. Just in case you didn't hear, it's over, and just a few days after the cease fire, a Hezbollah leader gave a speech that they have 20,000 more rockets than before (putting them in violation of the cease fire). I can get you a link to the speech/video.

If this is "the world of public opinion" how come every protest appears to be led by two organizing groups, a Muslim group and a socialist group? Are these the kind of groups you wish to speak for you? Even if this was the Muslim world of of public opinion, how come more people protested a Dutch cartoon contest?

azcustomer
10-13-2006, 12:19 AM
you: Someone should intervene.
me: Why didn't anyone intervene before?
you: Why should we intervene for anyone? I said we should stop helping Israel.
me: (re-quote your original call for intervention), why the contradiction?
you: Now you're arguing against stopping another holocaust?

You make a statement, I question it, you contradict your previous statement, I question the contradiction, so now I'm in favor of a holocaust? Oh man, you're good...
I see no contradiction. I claim that Israel is holding Palestinians in prison camps and torturing them. We should no longer help them. Are you claiming that the Palestinian's are holding Israeli Jews in prison camps and torturing them? Seriously, we should stop helping Israel with their failed policy of torture and random killings.

This is so weird, I have to ask, are you fucking with me, or are you being serious about this? That is a pretty big lump of shit to stuff in the mouth of someone who is questioning your ideology. It's even better than 'if you are not with us, you are against us' or 'if you don't support the President, you don't support our troops.'
Sorry, but your statement again lacks logic and relevance. Are you taking drugs?

I don't see this as a disagreement. One is about a PR machine, the other is about fabrication. I believe both stories, do you need help with the difference?
If you mean the fabrication of revisonist history by the Israeli media machine, you're right, there's a lot of it. Including them funding the establishment of history curriculum to be taught in Amercian schools which paints all Arabs as evil. You seem to be well versed in this false rhetoric.

Those have nothing to do with Israeli and Palestinians, and everything to do with Israel's invasion of Lebanon. Just in case you didn't hear, it's over,
Oh, really? So how many years from now will the Israeli troops leave their newly captured land? They don't plan to ever leave. The latest promise to retreat sometime next year is as false as their claim back in 1967 that they intended to give back the land they took in the six days war.

If this is "the world of public opinion" how come every protest appears to be led by two organizing groups, a Muslim group and a socialist group? Are these the kind of groups you wish to speak for you? Even if this was the Muslim world of of public opinion, how come more people protested a Dutch cartoon contest?
Ah yes, you know for sure because you are the official "counter" of protestors and the official "knower" of who organizes things? Sounds awfully like you're claiming to have Karnack type powers of the "decider".

Simply put, the United States has lost significant standing in the international community by standing behind the failed policies of Israel because of a disproportianately powerful Zionist lobby. It is time to recognize this in order to save ourselves.

lunchbox
10-16-2006, 08:32 AM
I see no contradiction.
You contradicted yourself by saying we should intervene, and then saying we shouldn't. I don't see how anyone can miss that, although, with the way you interpret things, one never knows....

Sorry, but your statement again lacks logic and relevance.
coming from the guy who doesnt know the meaning of contradiction.

Are you taking drugs?
I have to ask the relevance from a guy who can't keep his thoughts straight for more than 48 hours on one subject...

Please, tell where I was in favor of this 'holocaust'. Which, btw, is just one more thing you've worked into your ideology, that the rest of us must accept based on your word alone.

This is what the Holocaust looked like:
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Minnesotans_and_The_Holocaust/Scenes/Dachaum.jpg
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/28/images/xlarge/OTH_1_ww2buch2_220808_0828.jpg
http://library.thinkquest.org/13915/media/image5.gif



If you mean the fabrication of revisonist history by the Israeli media machine, you're right, there's a lot of it. Including them funding the establishment of history curriculum to be taught in Amercian schools which paints all Arabs as evil. You seem to be well versed in this false rhetoric.
Please, show me where I said all Arabs were evil. I painted the majority of moderates as all talk and no action, like the majority of Germans during the Holocaust and Nazi rise and reign. Then I gave quotes from leaders of the largest moderate groups saying they would like the USA to be an Islamic country. That the silent majority of moderate Muslims will go along with raising the Qu'ran over the Constitution and Bill of Rights. If that comes, new laws would be penned by a Mufti, the same position of the Nazi Palestinian leader you claimed never lead anyone.

Please, show me the revisionist history funded by Israel? I can't find the articles about Jews or Israel teaching anything other than holocaust information. I did find these, googled: Israeli funded teaching.
"UN funding the indoctrination of children into Islamo-Nazi terrorism"
http://www.brookesnews.com/061408unterror.html
"textbooks in use in the West Bank and Gaza Strip before the establishment of the Palestinian Authority were old Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks used when the territories were held by those two countries prior to the 1967 war. They contained many offensive and inaccurate passages regarding the history of the region and the State of Israel. "
http://www.usip.org/congress/testimony/2003/1030_solomon.html
"Often bypassing school boards and nudging aside approved curricula, teaching programs funded by Saudi Arabia make their way into elementary and secondary school classrooms.
...
These materials praise and sometimes promote Islam, but criticize Judaism and Christianity and are filled with false assertions. "
http://floridajewishnews.com/content/view/266/171/


Oh, really? So how many years from now will the Israeli troops leave their newly captured land? They don't plan to ever leave. The latest promise to retreat sometime next year is as false as their claim back in 1967 that they intended to give back the land they took in the six days war.
Back to the 6 day war already... It doesn't take long for you, does it. Could you please tell me what the IDF is occupying other than one area the UN said they could? What promises are you referring to? I don't see any slowdown in Iran and Syria's arming of Hezbollah with long range rockets not intended for border defense (Iran has a more accurate line of shorter range rockets, which are not the ones used to hit Haifa).


Ah yes, you know for sure because you are the official "counter" of protestors and the official "knower" of who organizes things? Sounds awfully like you're claiming to have Karnack type powers of the "decider".
I guess you are the only one who can make generalizations, to save the argument I will go through and quote each article where organizational credit was given...

While we are on the subject, did you or did you not just use articles about a few thousand Muslim and Socialist protests to describe the World Opinion? I have to say, I would be more like the Shadow, and you would be Karnack. I claim to know what evil lurks... and you claim to know what an article says without reading it.

Simply put, the United States has lost significant standing in the international community by standing behind the failed policies of Israel because of a disproportianately powerful Zionist lobby. It is time to recognize this in order to save ourselves.
Significant loss based on Zionism? In proportion to our Wars, the President, and Katrina/our inability to care for our own citizens much better than the "evil" countries do theirs even under normal conditions; you believe it is Zionism that is what is really causing the significant loss of standing. Because being fat, undereducated, and belligerent is so 'in with the UN crowd' these days....

You should try eating something other than red herring, because you are seriously full of it.

The horrible oppressive treatment of Palestinians:
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/pal_kids_w_toy_machine_guns.jpg

azcustomer
10-16-2006, 01:58 PM
You contradicted yourself by saying we should intervene, and then saying we shouldn't. I don't see how anyone can miss that, although, with the way you interpret things, one never knows....
I'm done with this one - you're trying to put words in my mouth to say I'm contradicting myself.

Back to the 6 day war already... It doesn't take long for you, does it. Could you please tell me what the IDF is occupying other than one area the UN said they could? What promises are you referring to? I don't see any slowdown in Iran and Syria's arming of Hezbollah with long range rockets not intended for border defense (Iran has a more accurate line of shorter range rockets, which are not the ones used to hit Haifa).
They promised to give back the Gaza settlements - of all of the settlements, they've only evacuated one - the one that you wailed about in your ealier post. Shortly after this evacuation, the handy little conflict in the northern region allowed Israel to take more land and divert attention from the broken promise they never intended to keep. Simply put, they will not leave the land they recently took.

Re: the UN requiring Israel to leave the occupied territory:
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/240/94/IMG/NR024094.pdf?OpenElement

"Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter, Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles: Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;"

Significant loss based on Zionism? In proportion to our Wars, the President, and Katrina/our inability to care for our own citizens much better than the "evil" countries do theirs even under normal conditions; you believe it is Zionism that is what is really causing the significant loss of standing. Because being fat, undereducated, and belligerent is so 'in with the UN crowd' these days....

Our participation in the two Iraq wars is due to the neoconservative movement, which incorporates a Zionist view of the Middle East in it's war policy.

I thought being fat, undereducated and belligerent was so 'in' with the US crowd these days. At least with blind supporters of the neocon policies.

lunchbox
10-16-2006, 02:52 PM
I'm done with this one - you're trying to put words in my mouth to say I'm contradicting myself.
If that is what you have to tell yourself, so be it.

They promised to give back the Gaza settlements - of all of the settlements, they've only evacuated one - the one that you wailed about in your ealier post. Shortly after this evacuation, the handy little conflict in the northern region allowed Israel to take more land and divert attention from the broken promise they never intended to keep. Simply put, they will not leave the land they recently took.
Can you link an article? I'm not sure what you are talking about. I thought you were talking about withdrawing from Lebanon. I guess it's handy that you can pull up that one war, again from 40 years ago... If we shouldn't care about the war brought to Israel at birth, why should we care about the pre-emptive strike 20 years later? Shouldn't those countries have defended themselves better? They even had standing armies massed at the border...


Re: the UN requiring Israel to leave the occupied territory:
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/240/94/IMG/NR024094.pdf?OpenElement
broken link, resolution 240?


"Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter, Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles: Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;"
That is not 240, little help?

I wonder what the UN resolution number to give Israel back would be if the Arab League had succeeded in 1948, and who would have enforced it? Would you have been in favor of that?

Our participation in the two Iraq wars is due to the neoconservative movement, which incorporates a Zionist view of the Middle East in it's war policy.
So you are saying it has nothing to do with Israel and Zionism after all, it has everything to do with our desire to enforce our will on other countries. I think what you mean is we are 'Hellenistic by force'?


I thought being fat, undereducated and belligerent was so 'in' with the US crowd these days. At least with blind supporters of the neocon policies.
common ground

azcustomer
10-16-2006, 04:20 PM
The text was from UN Resolution 242:

http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/242%20(1967)&Lang=E&Area=RESOLUTION

Or find the link here: http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm

Then there's the Trilateral Statement which Israeli Prime Minister Barak signed in 2000:

Trilateral statement (full text)


President William J. Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehud_Barak) - Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasir Arafat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat). Between July 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_11) and 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_24), under the auspices of President Clinton, Prime Minister Barak and Chairman Arafat met at Camp David in an effort to reach an agreement on permanent status. While they were not able to bridge the gaps and reach an agreement, their negotiations were unprecedented in both scope and detail. Building on the progress achieved at Camp David, the two leaders agreed on the following principles to guide their negotiations:


The two sides agreed that the aim of their negotiations is to put an end to decades of conflict and achieve a just and lasting peace.
The two sides commit themselves to continue their efforts to conclude an agreement on all permanent status issues as soon as possible.
Both sides agree that negotiations based on UN Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council) Resolutions 242 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_242) and 338 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_338) are the only way to achieve such an agreement and they undertake to create an environment for negotiations free from pressure, intimidation and threats of violence.
The two sides understand the importance of avoiding unilateral actions that prejudge the outcome of negotiations and that their differences will be resolved only by good faith negotiations.
Both sides agree that the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) remains a vital partner in the search for peace and will continue to consult closely with President Clinton and Secretary Albright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright) in the period ahead.

And now they claim they will exit southern Lebanon - yeah, right...

GURU OF $IN
10-16-2006, 05:46 PM
so when we go to the jews, why are you killing arabs, their answer is"remember the holocaust

"why are you massacring arab massses", their answer will be "remember the holocaust."

why are you driving palestinians out of their land and building settlemets there? they answer" remember the holocaust.


Why did you kill that innocent palestinian family, they will answer" alot of our families were killed in the holocaust.

why did you use banned chemical weapons on palestinians and lebanese, they will answer you with" holocaust hello do you remember what the nazis did to us?"



well stop using the nazi zionist inspired holocaust as an excuse for killing people.

its not my problem nor my bothers problem if some nazi war criminal killed your people.

azcustomer
10-16-2006, 09:11 PM
^^^^ A f**king men!!

We've already done more than enough. Time for Israel to stand on it's own and take the heat for it's pissy attitude. Your daddy ain't puttin' up with yo' piss ant behavior anymore! If you're going to act like a dick when you're really just a big pussy, you're going to get f**ked everywhere.

lunchbox
10-16-2006, 11:14 PM
The text was from UN Resolution 242:

http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/242%20(1967)&Lang=E&Area=RESOLUTION

Or find the link here: http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm

Then there's the Trilateral Statement which Israeli Prime Minister Barak signed in 2000:

Trilateral statement (full text)


President William J. Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehud_Barak) - Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasir Arafat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat). Between July 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_11) and 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_24), under the auspices of President Clinton, Prime Minister Barak and Chairman Arafat met at Camp David in an effort to reach an agreement on permanent status. While they were not able to bridge the gaps and reach an agreement, their negotiations were unprecedented in both scope and detail. Building on the progress achieved at Camp David, the two leaders agreed on the following principles to guide their negotiations:


The two sides agreed that the aim of their negotiations is to put an end to decades of conflict and achieve a just and lasting peace.
The two sides commit themselves to continue their efforts to conclude an agreement on all permanent status issues as soon as possible.
Both sides agree that negotiations based on UN Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council) Resolutions 242 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_242) and 338 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_338) are the only way to achieve such an agreement and they undertake to create an environment for negotiations free from pressure, intimidation and threats of violence.
The two sides understand the importance of avoiding unilateral actions that prejudge the outcome of negotiations and that their differences will be resolved only by good faith negotiations.
Both sides agree that the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) remains a vital partner in the search for peace and will continue to consult closely with President Clinton and Secretary Albright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright) in the period ahead.

Are you aware that Barak pushed for this? Arafat walked out without negotiating our a counter offer. The Intifada followed immediately.

This was already covered, why didn't you respond before? I guess the reality of what you are pointing to does not compute, because it conflicts with your ideology of 'blame Israel for your own safety' regardless of what is really happening in the world.

Arafat thought the offer was a sign of weakness, so he decided it was time to start a fight, not deal. That is what you back? A group that thought it would be wise to pick a fight with what is easily one of the most powerful and best trained standing armies in the hemisphere, rather than negotiate.

Prior to the start of the current Intifada, there was less than 10,000 Palestinians imprisoned by Israel, that is out of a population estimated between 3.5-4 million people. Since the Intifada the current number is now 50,000, with roughly 750,000 total passing through custody at one point or another.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/chavez070102.asp
2002 - "According to a recent survey conducted by a Palestinian polling firm, a majority of Palestinians say their goal is to eliminate Israel, while only 43 percent support a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. In addition, according to most polls, between 60 percent and more than 70 percent of Palestinians support suicide bombings. Shocking as those statistics are, they don't begin to describe the seething hatred that prompts parents to cheer their own children on to their deaths, so long as they murder Israelis in the process.

....

The thought of four Jewish schoolchildren shot dead at their desks, while a fifth burned to death in his dorm room gave so much pleasure to this Palestinian mother that she wept for joy, even in the face of the loss of her own flesh and blood. She gladly sacrificed her son to accomplish this butchery."

Palestinians went from one of the lowest internment rates on the planet to one of the highest (I have no data for POW's so this is just compared to regular prisoners, I presume it would relatively lower than most), after starting a war.

You aren't even advocating peace with a people that don't want it. You advocate that Israel is evil, to blame, and deserves to die; despite it's attempt at peace. If that is not bad enough, this ideology of yours stems from some asshole hiding in a cave, that has no involvement in Israeli/Palestine affairs, chose to add the US support of Israel to the list of reasons about why they attacked America.


And now they claim they will exit southern Lebanon - yeah, right...
As stated before, they have complied with the cease fire, which left them a single outpost. Iran and Syria are still arming Hezbollah, a violation, while bragging about it. When Israel broke the cease fire to stop an arms transfer, no one denied what happened, but it was Hezbollah that was crying foul.

GURU OF $IN
10-17-2006, 12:11 AM
Israel asked for the cease fire because they underestimated their enemy and got hit hard by hizballah and their soldiers were no match to the hizballah guerillas.

At the beginning of that war, they had a plan to wipe out hizballah. The option of occupying the whole country was out of question because they wouldnt last on lebanese soil due to the hard resistance they will be met with as in the 1980's. So the americans gave them weapons and the green light to wipe out hizballah both politically militarily etc...


after one month of fighting where they were getting beat hard by hizballah in the south and when all of Israel was in the range if hizballah's missiles, Israel accepted a ceasefire.It was a big miliatry defeat and emabrrassing defeat for Israel. Even their commandos which are the best in the world couldnt accomplish one single mission given to them.

now of course economically lebanon lost alot, and lebanon lost alot of cvilians bec the israelis bombed civilians as to incite the crowds against hizballah, but it didnt work,it only made them stronger. And because Israel was deliberately bombing lebanese civilians, hizballah decided to play it their way and bomb their civilians.

the biased cheap media will no longer have effect on the crowds, people are starting to learn to dig for the truth.


When Israel respects life and gives people their rights ,then it will see the good of people.

but with this policy, it will only see the fiercest of people.

lunchbox
10-17-2006, 12:34 AM
its not my problem nor my bothers problem if some nazi war criminal killed your people.
Is that what it all boils down to for you? Why are Jews unworthy of your compassion? Even dead ones who died in what the rest of the world considered a tragedy?

Must resort to rheotirc and pictures, because you lack the social skills to carry on a conversation or argument?

GURU OF $IN
10-17-2006, 12:47 AM
Is that what it all boils down to for you? Why are Jews unworthy of your compassion? Even dead ones who died in what the rest of the world considered a tragedy?

Must resort to rheotirc and pictures, because you lack the social skills to carry on a conversation or argument?


yes I do lack the social skills when talking to ignorant people.

the thread is about extremist jews, it has nothing to do with the holocaust.Go open a thread about the holocaust if you want.Nothing in this world, no tragedy nothing justifies the israeli killing of innocent people and massacring of children and babies and innocent families. Nothing justifies Israel's occupation of other's land and kicking them out to replace them with jews.
nothing justifies this racism.

you must learn from the armenians, they were massacred too in big numbers, yet today they fight persecution,they fight evil, they fight racism, unlike the israeli who want to kill everyone just because of the holocaust. The holocaust is not my problem,I did not do it nor did I support who did it and its not my freakin problem.

how can you expect us to feel sorry for the holocause while the people who came out of it are doing the same thing that the nazis did to them to other people.They took their anger and hate of the nazis and let it out on other people who had nothing to do with the holocaust.

lunchbox
10-17-2006, 01:36 AM
Israel asked for the cease fire because they underestimated their enemy and got hit hard by hizballah and their soldiers were no match to the hizballah guerillas.
I hate to make this a matter of death tolls, but Lebanese officials would even disagree with that (based on military losses).


At the beginning of that war, they had a plan to wipe out hizballah. The option of occupying the whole country was out of question because they wouldnt last on lebanese soil due to the hard resistance they will be met with as in the 1980's. So the americans gave them weapons and the green light to wipe out hizballah both politically militarily etc...
Despite what is incorrect about this, is there something 'bad' about this?


after one month of fighting where they were getting beat hard by hizballah in the south and when all of Israel was in the range if hizballah's missiles, Israel accepted a ceasefire.It was a big miliatry defeat and emabrrassing defeat for Israel. Even their commandos which are the best in the world couldnt accomplish one single mission given to them.
Israel went from asking for a cease fire to accepting a cease fire. How many times is it that you have to tell a lie before it becomes the truth? For future reference, keeping your story straight helps...

BTW, Hezbollah sported new farjr rockets to get that range, further proof that Iran has bankrolled and armed Hezbollah.


now of course economically lebanon lost alot, and lebanon lost alot of cvilians bec the israelis bombed civilians as to incite the crowds against hizballah, but it didnt work,it only made them stronger. And because Israel was deliberately bombing lebanese civilians, hizballah decided to play it their way and bomb their civilians.
Nope. Hezbollah launched the first rockets (not bombs) as a distraction for the raid into Israel.

Now for what you don't know:
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/8676.htm
July 12th coincides with this man claiming (I don't now the current status of this) to be a mossad agent responsible for the car bombing of two Islamic Jihad leaders.


the biased cheap media will no longer have effect on the crowds, people are starting to learn to dig for the truth.
I don't think anyone else is claiming an Israel biased media these days.


When Israel respects life and gives people their rights ,then it will see the good of people.

but with this policy, it will only see the fiercest of people.
When does it start?
http://www.middleeastfacts.com/weblog/arabmuslim-world/hamas-blame-the-palestinians-for-the-situation-in-gaza
Must be the policy of Israel...

lunchbox
10-17-2006, 02:16 AM
yes I do lack the social skills when talking to ignorant people.
So making shit up and saying Jews will just point to the Holocaust as an excuse is what qualifies as intelligence to you?


the thread is about extremist jews, it has nothing to do with the holocaust.Go open a thread about the holocaust if you want.
Bite me? If you don't want it mentioned, don't bring it up? Sound logical?


Nothing in this world, no tragedy nothing justifies the israeli killing of innocent people and massacring of children and babies and innocent families.
War is hell. No one asked Arafat to leave peace talks and start a campaign of violence. You think suicide bombs don't go off in residential areas? There are innocents dead on both sides, why do you need to blame the Jews in the area, and present only the one side?


Nothing justifies Israel's occupation of other's land and kicking them out to replace them with jews.
Cite one Palestinian this claim applies to. BTW, Palestinians are murdered by other Palestinians for selling land to Jews, a rule made under Arafat's reign.

nothing justifies this racism.
Unless it is yours?


you must learn from the armenians, they were massacred too in big numbers, yet today they fight persecution,they fight evil, they fight racism, unlike the israeli who want to kill everyone just because of the holocaust.
Woweee, you like to make those bombastic claims. How does one arrive at your conclusion (I've made bold).


The holocaust is not my problem,I did not do it nor did I support who did it and its not my freakin problem.
I thought it was over, who is asking for you to make it your problem?


how can you expect us to feel sorry for the holocause while the people who came out of it are doing the same thing that the nazis did to them to other people.They took their anger and hate of the nazis and let it out on other people who had nothing to do with the holocaust.
I don't expect you to feel sorry for me or them. It would be nice if you took a more realistic approach to current events. FYI the youngest survivor would be in their 60's. The exact same things like what: mass graves, starvation, experiments, a systematic plan of extermination? You have a major uphill battle of proving these things exist. Arguing consists of more than just your rhetoric.

You do not care about the holocaust where millions of Jews died. You do care about the one you think is going on now. How is that not racism?

Fan_Dancer
10-17-2006, 02:24 AM
Lunchbox,

What I don't understand about your position is why you think perfectly ok for Israel to kill innocent people in Muslim lands. Why is it acceptable if it is Jews doing it but if it is Muslims doing it? Shouldn't it be wrong no matter who is doing it?

When Israel of Jews kill innocent kids in the country of their enemies it is just as awful and wrong as when their enemy kills innocent people of the Jewish faith or in Israel. Being Jewish does NOT absolve the immoral nature of killing innocents anymore than being of ANY OTHER religion absolves them of doing the same.

Has the current course of action been working? Has suicide bombs in Israel or blowing up villages in Muslim lands ended the conflict?

Has violent action (especially that done not in accordance of the standard rules of war) done ANYTHING to help fix the problems that have gone on for so very many years now?

What makes you think that constent trading of violent attacks on innocent people of either side is going to bring peace to Isreal?

lunchbox
10-17-2006, 03:17 PM
What I don't understand about your position is why you think perfectly ok for Israel to kill innocent people in Muslim lands. Why is it acceptable if it is Jews doing it but if it is Muslims doing it? Shouldn't it be wrong no matter who is doing it?
The problem is, I never said anything like this, or advocated killing Muslims. I am 100% for peace. I do not believe peace can be dictated, but I also believe an assailant cannot be ignored.

My premise has been that it is unacceptable to say, "Israelis are killing innocent Palestinians, and they need to stop." THEN NEVER SAY A FUCKING WORD about how this war started or that this is happening on both sides. That is just plain wrong and presents a biased view to anyone who reads it.

Why do you question me about a position that is not mine? Meanwhile, you do not question azcustomer or GURU, who advocate an even more grotesque point of view: all Jews in Israel deserve to die, there are no innocents among them, or to paraphrase 'they should leave' or 'get what they deserve' and that they 'do not care what happens to the Jews in Israel'. Do you overlook what they are saying because it is anti-Israel and what you believe?


When Israel of Jews kill innocent kids in the country of their enemies it is just as awful and wrong as when their enemy kills innocent people of the Jewish faith or in Israel.
So Israeli's kill the enemies 'kids', but the enemy just kills 'people' in Israel. Why did you bias this statement? If it is the thought that counts, why is the person on the holier than though soapbox posting like this?

I have to point it out again, azcustomer and GURU have railed on Israel for killing innocents for pages now, while never acknowledging that innocents are on both sides.

Being Jewish does NOT absolve the immoral nature of killing innocents anymore than being of ANY OTHER religion absolves them of doing the same.
Did I imply otherwise? Show me where. Why is it OK for YOU to lump ME in with what someone else said, just because we are both Jewish? What is that called?


Has the current course of action been working? Has suicide bombs in Israel or blowing up villages in Muslim lands ended the conflict?

Has violent action (especially that done not in accordance of the standard rules of war) done ANYTHING to help fix the problems that have gone on for so very many years now?

What makes you think that constent trading of violent attacks on innocent people of either side is going to bring peace to Isreal?
Noone in this discussion has stated or implied this. What makes you think I believe this, or for that matter any Jew believes this (since you continue to imply all Jews believe the same thing)?

I think you are a bit lost and misdirecting your feelings. But your are welcome to question me anytime, I would just prefer it be about something I said.

azcustomer
10-17-2006, 05:23 PM
Meanwhile, you do not question azcustomer or GURU, who advocate an even more grotesque point of view: all Jews in Israel deserve to die, there are no innocents among them, or to paraphrase 'they should leave' or 'get what they deserve' and that they 'do not care what happens to the Jews in Israel'. Do you overlook what they are saying because it is anti-Israel and what you believe?
Box, it's a stretch to equate my "we should leave Israel to deal with it's own problem" and "supporting Israel during their state sponsored torture of Palestinians" with "all Jews in Israel deserve to die" and "there are no innocents among them".

I've repeatedly stated that your views are more extreme than many of the moderate Israeli Jews who are begging their leadership to move towards peace and give the Palestinians their land back.

You are being more insiteful than insightful - much like your radical brethren.

I have to point it out again, azcustomer and GURU have railed on Israel for killing innocents for pages now, while never acknowledging that innocents are on both sides.
It is more difficult to claim that the Israeli citizens are innocent for the actions of their elected leadership than the Palestinian refugees are innocent for actions of the resistance fighters. The Israeli's who demonstrate against their government are innocents as much as the Palestinians who march for peace.

Did I imply otherwise? Show me where.
When you argued that Israel was justified for their actions because of the holocaust. You repeated the tired mantra "never forget" - "never again" - and used it to justify terrorism against the refugees.

And if you're looking for more evidence of Israel supporting terrorists - look no further than 9/11.

http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707

"THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA."

For any of you who think Israel cared much:

"After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: “It’s very good.” Then he corrected himself, adding: “Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans].”"

GURU OF $IN
10-17-2006, 05:39 PM
I have to point it out again, azcustomer and GURU have railed on Israel for killing innocents for pages now, while never acknowledging that innocents are on both sides.

go re read my posts,I said many times that there are terrorists on both sides and innocents on both sides and that we musnt support extremists.But when I saw how ignorant you are I decided to play it your way.

Deogol
10-17-2006, 05:40 PM
The problem is, I never said anything like this, or advocated killing Muslims. I am 100% for peace. I do not believe peace can be dictated, but I also believe an assailant cannot be ignored.


Here is the main problem. They are so revved up for a fight they hear what they want to hear and interprete anything you say as how they want to interprete it -- all for their victimhood which allows them to grandize and march around "oh poor me we killed some more israelis and now everyone hates me why? oh why?"

Fan_Dancer
10-17-2006, 06:32 PM
The problem is, I never said anything like this, or advocated killing Muslims. I am 100% for peace. I do not believe peace can be dictated, but I also believe an assailant cannot be ignored.

My premise has been that it is unacceptable to say, "Israelis are killing innocent Palestinians, and they need to stop." THEN NEVER SAY A FUCKING WORD about how this war started or that this is happening on both sides. That is just plain wrong and presents a biased view to anyone who reads it.

Why do you question me about a position that is not mine? Meanwhile, you do not question azcustomer or GURU, who advocate an even more grotesque point of view: all Jews in Israel deserve to die, there are no innocents among them, or to paraphrase 'they should leave' or 'get what they deserve' and that they 'do not care what happens to the Jews in Israel'. Do you overlook what they are saying because it is anti-Israel and what you believe?


So Israeli's kill the enemies 'kids', but the enemy just kills 'people' in Israel. Why did you bias this statement? If it is the thought that counts, why is the person on the holier than though soapbox posting like this?

I have to point it out again, azcustomer and GURU have railed on Israel for killing innocents for pages now, while never acknowledging that innocents are on both sides.

Did I imply otherwise? Show me where. Why is it OK for YOU to lump ME in with what someone else said, just because we are both Jewish? What is that called?


Noone in this discussion has stated or implied this. What makes you think I believe this, or for that matter any Jew believes this (since you continue to imply all Jews believe the same thing)?

I think you are a bit lost and misdirecting your feelings. But your are welcome to question me anytime, I would just prefer it be about something I said.

First off if I confused your position with someone else, my deepest apology.

It was not based on your religion but rather because I don't remember seeing you ever admit that it is just as wrong when people of your faith or Israel kills innocents as it is when others do it. If you did and I missed it, my mistake.

As for the rest of what you tried to imply about me such as being anti-Jew or anti- Israel well you couldn't be more off base. I embrace people of ALL religions, races, gender, ages and ANY nationality. I also oppose the killing of any innocent person on the planet.

Deogol
10-17-2006, 08:10 PM
It's just Fan Dancer's definition of who is innocent is all. Some dirty little 12 year old jew boy moving into a home on Palestinian land with his parents demands to be killed by the local Hamas during his ride to school. It's a fucking... goddamn... invasion I tell ya.

Fan_Dancer
10-17-2006, 08:29 PM
A persons religion, gender, nationality or where they choose to live does not makes them innocent or not innocent. Also ALL children are innocent in my book.

It's very sad to me that there are people in this world (and people in this thread) who do not share my opinion on that matter. :'(

lunchbox
10-17-2006, 11:38 PM
First off if I confused your position with someone else, my deepest apology.
Accepted.

azcustomer
10-18-2006, 09:45 AM
It's just Fan Dancer's definition of who is innocent is all. Some dirty little 12 year old jew boy moving into a home on Palestinian land with his parents demands to be killed by the local Hamas during his ride to school. It's a fucking... goddamn... invasion I tell ya.

Sadly, the innocent 12 year old is put in that position by his not so innocent parents. And as the 12 year old is taught to disrespect Palestinians, at what age does he become not so innocent? Before anyone tries to stretch the meaning of the last sentence into something torrid, let me say that it's probably sometime after he serves his manditory duty in the military.

It's sad, because his 30 year old parents are probably just as "innocent" because they were never given the chance to develop into mature, caring adults. In that region, many on both sides have been surrounded by hate and fear mongers and have been taught to have a Pavlovian incite reflex.

What is strange for me to witness are how many Pavlovian inciteful people we have here in America.