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sassysummer
10-30-2006, 09:29 AM
http://www.usalaw.com/a-mm-outpatient.html
Young women (18-27) have the highest risk of becoming pregnant after tubal litigation. This also has a paragraph on sterilization using electrical current, or "frying your uterus" as you so eloquently stated.
http://www.azwellness.com/gynecology21l.html



actually, the "frying my uterus" was from a post that I made months ago about frying my own uterus which is why she used that term, which is what i really did, i fried my uterus with an electrical current..so it wasn't her eloquence, it was mine,

also, this link has nothing to do with the procedure she's talking about (the one I had)...I had a endometrial ablation...this procedure in the link is about damaging the tubes themselves..

"Sterilization using electrical current:

Carefully controlled electrical current is used to seal the tube shut. The surgeon makes a tiny incision in the abdomen and then inserts an instrument with a ½" telescope (a laparoscope) to find the fallopian tubes. Then another instrument is used to apply the electrical current."

Mastridonicus
10-30-2006, 09:32 AM
Sirona... if I don't say this enough.... I hope to some day.

You
Totally
Win.

hot4ablackchick
10-30-2006, 10:45 AM
I'm not speaking directly to anyone here, just had to put my 2 cents, (Ignore the you's)



It really is hard to for a man to get sterilized as well, when he has no children. One of my male coworkers never wanted to have children. He was very adamant about it, but couldn't find a doc to do the procedure. He had no children and was 30 by the way. I think she should be able to get a tubal if she wants one, but unfortuanately that may not be able to happen easily until you're much older. I wanted my tubes tied after I had my son but I was too young (20) at the time. I have two children and I don't know if I'll ever have more. BC sucks, but honestly I'm glad I didn't. Now that I have met my man, I like having the option that if I decide to, I can have a baby. Not that I will or won't, I still have my choice although just a few years ago I REALLY DID want my tubes tied. I'm not saying you will change your mind, or that meeting a good man will change it either. Its actually besides the point whether YOU actually will or not. Doctors will not base something dircectly based on your feelings directly in most cases. If a medicine turned out to make a lot of people ill, they would pull it. If you were taking that medicine you would "lose" it as well, whether or not YOU were made ill from it, or if the medication gave you wonderous results. Doctors and the Gov't make up our minds what we can do with our bodies in many circumstances, not just with sterilazation. The women who have changed their minds(myself included), are the ones who have made it more difficult to get one. I'm not taking a side here, if docs will give a 17 year old or younger breast implants, whether they have parental consent or not, then they damn sure should tie a woman's tubes if she wants. I know there are docs who would refuse, but IMO a 17 yr old should not be given implants, but I'm gonna stop because I don't want to hijack. She would be the one who had to live with the decison if she happened to change her mind an want kids. I agree with a lot of points on both ends but in the long run, nobody says we can't give implants, etc, b/c you might change your mind. Though implants can be removed easily, in most cases, your breasts will never look the same, especially if a large implant was removed. I understand why a doc wouldn't want to give a young woman a tubal, but it contradicts so many other things.

By the way, I completely understand why a woman would never want kids. I hate them. Love mine, but absofuckinglutely can't stand kids. Unless its VERY close family, I feel intense annoyance when one even talks to me. Complete disgust when one touches me. Im a weirdo I guess though.

madmaxine
10-30-2006, 11:15 AM
Just throwing this in, but I know of programs where female drug addicts are sterilized (they get paid a nominal fee for doing it.) These programs came about because these women were producing so many babies that suffered permanent disability or death from their mother's crack or alcohol abuse.
I doubt anyone would go this far, but you can denounce yourself to get sterilized...claim you absolutely should not reproduce because you fear for the safety of others if you do...(I could probably get away with doing this. LOL)
A large precentage of women lose their fertility quickly due to disorders of the reproductive system.....if you don't want kids & happen to be in this group, your problem will solve itself.

obeythegir
10-30-2006, 02:10 PM
I should not even get started on this subject.
It took me 5 years (starting the day I turned 18) and dozens of doctors before I found one willing to sterilize me.
It was one of the best things I have ever chosen to do.
I had Essure done...blast! We now have company. Ill elaborate after massage practice.
If anyone has any questions/concerns about Essure, or about the doctor I saw post away and Ill answer then when I return.

ViolaStrings
10-30-2006, 08:21 PM
"That is the WORST analogy i've ever heard and I think you are an ass to have made it. Having a tubal ligation does not make a person lazy, wtf. I think if someone knows they're done having kids or never want any, good for them for taking the proper steps to make sure that happens. It's a fuckload better than having kids they don't want and regret and possibly resent." I never said she wasn't allowed to not have children (yes, I know that's a double negative). I just said it's foolish to think that you're 100% going to feel the same way in 10-20 years and make a potentially irreversible decision based on that. You are clearly a genius, as illustrated by your name-calling and misspelling of "litigation".

"Your listening / reading comprehension skills seem to be lacking. She isn't looking for a tubal because she's worried about gaining weight etc, she wants it because SHE DOEN'T WANT KIDS. Some people NEVER want kids. Ever. They don't change thier mind. In addition, if by some freak chance she did change her mind, well she'd have to find a way around it. It isn't impossible you know. People who are technically sterile (ovarian failure etc) have kids all the freaking time." 1 in 3 sterilized women regret it someday, and 3 out of those 3 definitely thought they wanted it when they got it done. Tubal litigation reversal is only 70-80% effective. Why would she choose the irreversible option when there's a reversible option that is just as effective... JUST IN CASE?

"Once again you're comparing apples and oranges. Getting your tits done is a completely elective asthetically based surgery. Comparing that to reproductive choices is assinine." The analogy was not at all about breast augmentation. It was about listening to medical professionals who know better than laymen about options in particular circumstances. READ THE COMPARISON OVER AGAIN. Btw, the proper spelling is "asinine" and "aesthetically".

"Where are the number on complications related to the pill (strokes etc) or chilbirth? How many women don't get it done and get pregnant and regret the kid? Last I checked babies are irreversible too. Expenses? Compare the cost of surgery to a lifetime of pills and condoms and then get back to me. The pill costs between $5 and $25 a month depending on insurance and brand of pill. So it'd cost between $60 and $300 a year. Now multiply that yearly cost by the average reproductive life of a woman. Still think a tubal is expensive? Tubals don't prevent STD's but neither do 99% of other forms of birth control. I also want to know how snipping a fallopian tube causes cervical cancer, increased beleding and pain etc. That phisiologically makes NO sense at all." These are not my words, these are all quoted from a webiste, to which there is a link provided. You're acting like it's all or nothing, either she gets the TL or she has no other options and is completely unprotected from becoming pregnant.

"Most disturbing is your last statement about how it can enable risky sexual behavior...

What
the
fuck." Once again, you are the one lacking reading/comprehension skills. That is taken directly from a website's list of potential disadvantages, and is not necessarily my opinion.

I can say that I tried to be reasonable and state my opinion with respect to other people's beliefs and opinions. None of you have done the same.

ViolaStrings
10-30-2006, 08:23 PM
Sirona... if I don't say this enough.... I hope to some day.

You
Totally
Win.

Who was competing? This is a discussion.

Lysondra
10-30-2006, 08:26 PM
Um, it IS tubal ligation.

ViolaStrings
10-30-2006, 08:27 PM
It really is hard to for a man to get sterilized as well, when he has no children. One of my male coworkers never wanted to have children. He was very adamant about it, but couldn't find a doc to do the procedure. He had no children and was 30 by the way....

I wanted my tubes tied after I had my son but I was too young (20) at the time. I have two children and I don't know if I'll ever have more. BC sucks, but honestly I'm glad I didn't. Now that I have met my man, I like having the option that if I decide to, I can have a baby. Not that I will or won't, I still have my choice although just a few years ago I REALLY DID want my tubes tied.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's unwise to make a permanent decision based on POTENTIALLY impermanent feelings when there are other options.

ViolaStrings
10-30-2006, 08:28 PM
Um, it IS tubal ligation.

I just googled both spellings and they both are correct.

Mastridonicus
10-30-2006, 08:29 PM
Who was competing? This is a discussion.

It is a discussion.

And Sirona had the most informative posts. I agree with her entirely.

Lysondra
10-30-2006, 08:33 PM
Um, litigation is a typo. Google also comes up with the word 'teh' instead of 'the' and 'grammer' instead of 'grammar'... doesn't mean it's right.

VenusGoddess
10-30-2006, 08:35 PM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's unwise to make a permanent decision based on POTENTIALLY impermanent feelings when there are other options.

FOR THIS PERSON!!

You are failing to grasp that. Some people do not EVER want children...ever.

If this ONE person feels that she would rather have her tubes tied than have to take birth control or have children, it should be her choice and the response should not be, "Well, after you have a few kids or after you are 35...you may want kids later in life."

YOUR idea/opinion/thought on the situation does not make it true for everyone.

For fancygirl, she does not want children. Respect that. She's not you, she doesn't think like you and that doesn't make her closed minded...you sound like a bible thumper screaming from the pulpit about eternal damnation to the souls who do not believe in Jesus the way THEY believe in Jesus.

Life is about experience. Let other people choose the experience they want and stop putting YOUR judgements on THEIR situation.

ViolaStrings
10-30-2006, 08:41 PM
FOR THIS PERSON!!

You are failing to grasp that. Some people do not EVER want children...ever.

If this ONE person feels that she would rather have her tubes tied than have to take birth control or have children, it should be her choice and the response should not be, "Well, after you have a few kids or after you are 35...you may want kids later in life."

YOUR idea/opinion/thought on the situation does not make it true for everyone.

For fancygirl, she does not want children. Respect that. She's not you, she doesn't think like you and that doesn't make her closed minded...you sound like a bible thumper screaming from the pulpit about eternal damnation to the souls who do not believe in Jesus the way THEY believe in Jesus.

Life is about experience. Let other people choose the experience they want and stop putting YOUR judgements on THEIR situation.

When did I ever judge her for not wanting to have children?

fancygirl
10-30-2006, 08:58 PM
I can't believe that you would rather have surgery than use a condom or a diaphragm. Those don't have any hormones and you haven't even mentioned it. You want all the benefits of birth control and none of the long term hassle. You just want to submit yourself to surgery and be done with it. You're like a fat person who doesn't want to exercise and eat right, they just get liposuction. Like it or not, you're human and your body is designed to get pregnant, and preventing that is a long term battle. Making a choice to alter your body's natural state involves work. Reproduction is our default setting.

-shakes her head- here’s another piece about me you may or may not know but you should have been able to pick up from:



There’s one part about tubal sterilization that I didn’t know-- it does have up to a one in a hundred pregnancy rate (which I put in bold to be fair, and also to let other women know this who might also be seeking sterilization.) However, I wouldn’t have to deal with any crap going into my body or having to deal with any side effects from birth control. So perhaps that means I get the sterilization and make my man get a vasectomy, or that I pursue over-the-counter measures (WITH the sterilization).

But then, you haven’t really been the closest reader so I really cannot expect you to read closely now. I almost always use two types of birth control because ALL BC measures have a failure rate. I always advice others to use at least two forms of BC (and I use to be an RA so I had a LOT of talks with my residents about this.) Condoms and Diaphragms are not the most dependable Bcs. I would use those non-hormone methods as a secondary measure.


You want all the benefits of birth control and none of the long term hassle. You just want to submit yourself to surgery and be done with it. You're like a fat person who doesn't want to exercise and eat right, they just get liposuction. Like it or not, you're human and your body is designed to get pregnant, and preventing that is a long term battle. Making a choice to alter your body's natural state involves work. Reproduction is our default setting.

Yeah, because that’s such a bad thing to hope for -eye roll.- Sorry if I don’t just accept my “default setting.” And your simile sucks, LOL. I admit sex can be a bad thing if you’re ignoring your school work, your health, your family, whatever, but to say that TRYING TO PREVENT GETTING PREGNANT IS LIKE BEING A FAT PERSON WHO WANTS LIPOSUCTION??? Very interesting. However, if you’re saying that someone’s quality of life can be improved by non-natural means (and birth control is a non-natural means) or even by surgical means, then yes, sign me up. I have nothing against liposuction, especially if BEING FAT is someone’s default natural setting. I refuse to therefore accept that getting pregnant is a default setting that I should accept. Our bodies are set to be pregnant every year, and to be able to push out those little bundle of joys because so many used to die, even one hundred years ago (or today in some parts of the world.) Our bodies are not able to evolve that quickly, and I know I don’t want to be pregnant every year. That’s why we have birth control of so many types. And for those who don’t ever want to become pregnant, there are procedures for that too. What’s better? A surgery that prevents pregnancy, or a surgery that ends a pregnancy in the form of abortion (which I’m not saying that I would get because I don’t know. However, they are both surgeries.)




There is nothing in what I have said that would indicate that I hold pro-life sentiments or subscribe exclusively to traditional family values. Because I have questioned your desired method of sterilization as the best option for you medically, you try to call me out as holding anti-feminist sentiment, like I work at a pro-life pregnancy crisis center and show pregnant 15 year olds who have been date raped pictures of mangled fetuses.


While I applaud your imagination, I think you’ve taken your simile (once again) kind of far. Here’s what I said:



Finally, you are the object of my derision because of this:
"At 23, you telling a doctor you never want kids is going to fall on deaf ears, because frankly, most 23 year olds don't want kids and most end up wanting to have them someday."
You emphasize MOST and yet you don’t offer numbers. You’re just as bad as those people who assume that women who don’t want kids are guilty of intransient thoughts and feelings. You might not have read my response to Lillith checking if she was reiterating that same belief or mocking it (and Lillith, I figured you were mocking it, but it was unclear):
“I'm really hoping you're just mocking the people who say "you'll change your mind though." There's plenty of women out there and on SW who DON'T change their mind, and judging by the women out there who are my age and want to have children so bad at some point in the future, I venture to say that there's MORE women who DON'T change their mind about having kids.”
At least I say it’s my own speculation that more women don’t want kids and stick with that belief than those who are very adamant about it from their teens and twenties and then later change their mind. Society, even in Western societies, still have a hard time swallowing women not wanting to settle down to the domestic pattern sooner or later, as if our current lifestyles as unmarried and non-breeding females is just a temporary rebellion. It’s not temporary, but it does raise the rebellious spirit in me every time someone acts as if a 23 year old is not capable of knowing her own mind when it comes to kids.

I consider myself as both pro-life and pro-choice. I think that women should be educated about forms of birth control, and that sterilization should be more easily offered, but that repetitive abortions are not the way. But it’s not my choice unless I am the one that is pregnant. Yes, you

fancygirl
10-30-2006, 08:59 PM
(continued)...have questioned me on my choice of birth control, which somehow in your mind makes me a fat person who wants liposuction. That’s great. I’ve been able to state how I feel, and this communication with you will no doubt aid my in my search for a doctor. I called you out because your information was wrong (acting like we were talking about a hysterectomy when we were talking about a tubal ligation, oh-- and by the way, a hysterectomy won’t fuck up your system if they leave the ovaries in. Nifty, huh?). I also called you out because you seemed to not be reading what I was saying, but going off on your own little flights where it was hard to follow.


They'd rather harass women at an abortion clinic than help out a poor single mother or disadvantaged children. I firmly believe everyone should have the choice whether they want to have children or not, and neither choice is more valid than the other.


Then it should also be said that the choice one pursues to NOT have kids also is subjective and shouldn’t be damned one way or the other. I’m not a big fan of repetitive use of morning after pills (I have a friend who gets that several times a year), but you won’t find me attacking that at all. I’ll just say, I don’t like that option FOR ME, and here’s why. You, on the other hand, say the IUD has worked for you and then continue to push the subject when I continue on with my online exchange about elective surgery.




Your system of beliefs emphasizes the importance of choice. You have to imagine the worst case scenario in this situation, because it is a question of absolutes. If you have tubal litigation or some other form of permanent sterilization performed at the age of 23, you take away your own choice to change your mind in the 2 decades of child bearing time you have left. What IF you do change your mind? It's possible.


What if I get pregnant and have to face the choice of putting my plans on hold indefinitely or an abortion? I’d rather be sterilized and not have to face that choice and be able to adopt of foster children rather than go through with a pregnancy that I didn’t want in the first place OR have to face the psychological trauma that an abortion would likely cause FOR ME.


Tubal litigation reversal isn't 100% effective. You would rather do that than compromise and seek out long term but reversible birth control? What's the worst case scenario with long term birth control? You might have to go back every couple of years to repeat it? You might have a few side effects? Carry around a few extra pounds? That's a small trade off to allow yourself to change your mind later.


You must really be against adoption or fostering. I think I said this to Yek, but I really don’t understand this necessity to make sure one’s genes get passed off to the next generation. I mean, I think I’m smarter and better looking than a lot of society, but I’m not so superior that I think my genes are all that. All of those things you mentioned ARE a lot to trade off if I’m never going to change my mind, and if I can just as easily adopt or foster if I DO change my mind…and would help out whichever kid I ended up with.



Every reasonable doctor is going to tell you to stay on long term birth control. Doctors KNOW better than laymen.
.

Being pro-choice for me means that I am the one that gets to decide what is best for my body and my future, especially after having felt this way for pretty much all my life, and having done the research.




You can't just go to a doctor and tell him/her that you want to be sterilized and they'll do it because you told them to. Is it unethical and taking away a woman's right to choose in this situation: A woman has sagging breasts. She decides she wants larger, firmer breasts to she goes to a plastic surgeon and requests breast augmentation. The surgeon tells her she needs a breast lift in addition to implants if she wants larger, firmer breats. She says she doesn't want a lift, as far as she knows breast implants are best for her. She just wants implants. The surgeon refuses to do it because it would yield unattractive results. Has the surgeon taken away her right to choose what to do with her body? No. He's a trained medical professional who knows better than this woman.
.

Another simile. Do you have like, a dictionary of bad similes or something? Because I’d REALLY like to get a look at that. And, actually, having gone to Planned Parenthood today, I CAN just go to a doctor and get sterilized. I received a list of fifteen places in my county who take state funding. Out of those fifteen places, I would find a spot. Also-- I got an additional four references for doctors who do not take the state funding but would take direct payment. It is not as hard as I thought, and there are more doctors out there (at least in California) who are willing to listen to a woman’s desire. Now, would they let me get a hysterectomy? No. I’m trying to find the best way to make your simile fit, and you’re making it really hard on me--
Being sterilized is an attractive result. I want the attractive result. Now, if a doctor says, you’d be better off doing essure (forgot the spelling) than a tubal ligation, then I would trust his or her wisdom on that. However, the end results are the same. The woman in your example who just wants implants has not done her research in terms of what is necessary to keep the effectiveness of the implants (round, bigger breasts) over a period of time. One has to have a second surgery in order to get the effect one wants. If I have to have a second surgery in order to get the effectiveness I want (not having kids) so be it.

fancygirl
10-30-2006, 09:01 PM
(continued)...



It's incredibly difficult for a young, childless woman to seek permanent sterilization because doctors know so many women change their minds in addition to the innate health risks, and there are a plethora of safer options that are just as effective.

Good thing I’ve got a list of doctors who would probably do my sterilization. Also, just to see, I asked my health care provider who is a registered nurse and has been sterilized and had a hysterectomy, if there were any “innate health risks.” The look she gave me is about the same look I make when I read most of your replies to this thread. Suffice to say, no health risks, even in ALL the OTHER sterilizations she knows about through the clinic.



You want numbers?
107 complications from anesthesia per 1000 cases, according to this study:

High rate of deaths from anesthesia, up to 1 in 8,500 from anesthesia alone, not factoring in doctor error.


Planned Parenthood states:
Sterilizations are done in hospitals or in clinics. They are done with conscious sedation (awake, relaxed, and drowsy), deep sedation (asleep), or under anesthesia: local (patient is awake), regional (body is numb from the navel to the feet), or general (patient is asleep).

I’m thinking mild sedation is different from anesthesia. And by your counts, I should lower my quality of life by doing anything that has a risk, like driving-- See, here’s how a simile works:

I am as likely to have “complications” from driving, and in some cases, this might be death.

“In the United States, traffic accidents remain the leading cause of death for Americans under the age of 35.”


There are risks in everything. In the United States, for example, there are about 15.2 deaths per 100,000. That’s a LOT more than 1 in 8,500, AND I drive several times a day. I would only be having this surgery once. There are risks in everything. Even your IUD:

“The death rate/year for IUDs for women 35-39 years old is 2/100,000”


Or,
“WHO and US researchers have estimated about one to two deaths per 100,000 IUD users per year—from infection, ectopic pregnancy, or second-trimester septic abortion (262, 301, 384, 436).”


Not a lot, but still a risk.



Young women (18-27) have the highest risk of becoming pregnant after tubal litigation. This also has a paragraph on sterilization using electrical current, or "frying your uterus" as you so eloquently stated.



That was a nice misleading intro to your source. Good tactic since a lot of people don’t have time to check sources. Here’s what your source says:

“How sure can I be that I won't get pregnant?
Female sterilization is one of the most highly effective methods of birth control currently available. Nevertheless, overall, about 2% of women will get pregnant within 10 years after their tubal sterilization. About a third of these pregnancies are ectopic (tubal) pregnancies, which can be dangerous.
Studies suggest that a few women may get pregnant long after their operation and that the youngest women (those 18 to 27 when sterilized) are at greatest risk.”

Here’s how your IUD rates:
The IUD is one of the most effective methods of contraception. With most devices, pregnancy rates range from less than one to three per 100 women per year.


So, basically what you’re saying is that 2% of women IN A TEN YEAR PERIOD will get pregnant, versus 1-3% PER YEAR for an IUD? Thanks for proving my point. As for more women 18-27 percent getting pregnant even being sterilized, I’m thinking that only adds a margin of a point to that TEN YEAR PERIOD. -eye roll-


[QUOTE=ViolaStrings]
"One in three sterilized women regret their decision at some point in their lives, mostly due to a change in marital status, the death of a child, or a renewed desire to have children. For this reason, sterilization is not recommended unless you have a medical condition that would make pregnancy difficult or dangerous." according to , which lists it's disadvantages as being:

fancygirl
10-30-2006, 09:02 PM
(continued)...
Irreversible.
Can be expensive, costing between $1,000 and $3,000.
Tubal ligation requires exacting abdominal surgery and anesthesia, both of which carry health risks.
Surgical complications can include infection and uterine perforation.
Long-term health risks of sterilization can include ectopic pregnancy, cervical cancer, menstrual cycle disturbances, increased bleeding and pain, and gynecological problems necessitating hysterectomy.
Does not protect you from STIs, including HIV.
Dispenses with the need for planning or forethought, sometimes enabling risky sexual behavior.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if I will change my mind. However, considering how long I’ve felt this way, and the type of person I am, I would lean towards fostering anyways. If I get the sterilization, I won’t have to worry about the death of a child affecting my desire to have kids. Also, I’m not really interested in being married, though that may change. However, I don’t want to have kids for someone else, and this way if I do get married, both of us will know biological kids are not in the cards. So that just leaves changing my mind, which I’m not sure how that affects the 1 in 3 rate. The tubal ligation doesn’t seem to have that many health risks (or pregnancy risks) compared to an IUD (just wanted to throw that in there since you seem to cling to that method as an alternative for sterilization.) And talking to my R.N. those surgical complications and long-term health risks are pretty damned low. I’m down with the irreversibility (as if you couldn‘t tell.) As far as expense, well, the great state of CA has already offered to take care of it as long as I find a doctor who takes the funding (and that list does have quite a few who take it.) And if I have to pay $1,000 to 3,000, personally, that’s worth it to me. In a monogamous relationship for now, and I’m not stupid- I don’t think a sterilization will protect me against STDs but I’m glad you left that one in there to make your list longer. Re: dispensing with the need for planning-- I figure I’m already past my risky, wild sex days. However, depo would have probably had the same effect. I’m down with the irreversibility.




I don't think you're wrong not want to have children. I just think you're so close minded and dead set on doing this RIGHT NOW that you accuse anyone who questions your judgement regarding your desire to be sterilized RIGHT NOW as being a pro-life nut. You really might want to do more research, keep an open mind, and (GASP) consider the possibility that you might change your mind someday.

Once again, I have no idea where you thought I called you a pro-life nut. I’ve already considered several times the idea that I might want biological offspring, but nothing has changed. And the things you accuse me of, like doing more research and keeping an open mind for things that might be right for OTHER PEOPLE but maybe not for you, are more things you seem to be exhibiting (not to mention not doing more than skim reading my posts,) which is why I’ve criticized your posts.

ViolaStrings
10-30-2006, 09:03 PM
This thread should be called "Tell me what I want to hear or be verbally attacked".

fancygirl
10-30-2006, 09:33 PM
I love kids, I don't want my own kids. I would LOVE to have a tubal, I've opted out temporarily for other reasons, not because I'll change my mind, but because it will void the only health insurance I have from the state that covers women's reproductive health (once you are menopausal or have your tubes tied, you are no longer eligible for the services). I am self-employed and my medical history actively prevents me from getting private insurance, so I'm not willing to give up the only health care I have here, dammit.


I heard about this from the R.N. I don't think this type of health care would cover you in case of cancer or anything serious like that, would it? My R.N. pointed out that if I was willing to pay for the tubal, but had it covered by CA, it would still be a lot cheaper to pay out of pocket on a sliding scale at Planned Parenthood for a long time. That covers condoms, lube, pap smears, other checkups, any STD or pregnancy check ups, and STD meds. I wonder what the most expensive thing (besides a tubal) is that PP covers? I thought about what I get from PP and the most expensive thing is my depo which happens four times a year and costs CA about $160 annually. Then there’s physicals, and the pee-in-a-cup tests for regular STD checks when I have a new partner. Annually, even though I don’t know for sure, I can’t see my care exceeding $200 on or off of a sliding scale, if that. So… it’s worth it to me, even though I’ll be bummed to give up my teal card.



FYI, it's incredibly hard for a childless man to find a surgeon to perform a vasectomy. I don't know who told you otherwise.


Not around my neck of the woods in CA. It's a lot easier for men to get vasectomies, and Planned Parenthood encourages men to consider this as a birth control option. Women, on the other hand, have to hunt down doctors to provide a sterilization. I once even saw PP offer a gift cert. to men who got a vasectomy at PP, though this was 3-4 years ago.





Did I ever say that I don't think you're entitled to tubal litigation? No. I think you are, and I never said fancygirl isn't either. She's taking a permanent decison far too lightly and being far too reticent about other's input. I never said "don't do it, you'll change your mind". I said "Think about other options in case you change your mind". TL isn't the only form of birth control. I'm saying doctors know more than a non-doctor does about what form of birth control is safest and most beneficial to any given person than a layman does.

What is "far too lightly" and how would you be able to judge that via the internet? How do you know I haven't considered other forms of birth control before coming on here to ask about sterilization? I didn't just wake up last week and decide that sterilization was the only way to go. However, having seen what is out there, and having researched this fairly often, and with the input of medical care professionals from PP that I trust, sterilization sounds like the right decision for me. As far as being reticent about other people's input, I think other people's experiences are great to add in, however the question was about sterilization. You said your piece, and were rather patronizing about it. Further posts from you have just shown how illogical and patronizing you can be. This is a discussion but I have repeatedly seen evidence that you aren't even reading what is going on with me. How can it be a discussion then with you? It can't. Thus my annoyance and very low opinion of you.


actually, the "frying my uterus" was from a post that I made months ago about frying my own uterus which is why she used that term, which is what i really did, i fried my uterus with an electrical current..so it wasn't her eloquence, it was mine

Glad you took that backhanded compliment. I thought it was a direct quote from you, but I didn't want to have to go back to your post. Plus, I'm not going to scapegoat. Also-- looking at her source, it didn't sound like your surgery (which was done to the uterus and not the fallopian tubes?) but being unsure, I didn't want to point that out before talking to you.


She would be the one who had to live with the decison if she happened to change her mind an want kids. I agree with a lot of points on both ends but in the long run, nobody says we can't give implants, etc, b/c you might change your mind. Though implants can be removed easily, in most cases, your breasts will never look the same, especially if a large implant was removed. I understand why a doc wouldn't want to give a young woman a tubal, but it contradicts so many other things.

Thank you for your post. I have thought about what would happen if I change my mind, and I think that the joy I would get from fostering or adopting (IF I EVER DECIDE I WANT KIDS, WHICH IS A BIG IF FOR ME) would outweigh any disappointment I would feel that the little lovely monster of mine wouldn't have my genes in them. But then, in the nature v. nurture argument, I think nurture has a lot more to do with your kid than the genes... though for schizophrenia, depression, etc. genes win.
And by the way-- you have to change your name. You're hot for any chick, and saying you're hot for a black chick seriously underestimates your hotness by limiting you to a smaller portion of the female population 




I doubt anyone would go this far, but you can denounce yourself to get sterilized...claim you absolutely should not reproduce because you fear for the safety of others if you do...(I could probably get away with doing this. LOL)


you rock, maxine, and your "I could probably get away with this" made me laugh.

Tubal ligation in females, known popularly as "having one's tubes tied". The Fallopian tubes, which allow the sperm to fertilize the ovum and would carry the fertilized ovum to the uterus, are closed.
Litigation: a lawsuit or the act or process of litigating: a matter that is still in litigation.

fancygirl
10-30-2006, 09:40 PM
Moderators: feel free to lock the thread. It's been really hard to hold back from calling her a moron. I've done my best, and I think others have too. Her logic, her similes...her less than stellar ability to absorb information from my posts that are directly related to my decision to have kids, and my justification of said decision... ack! it's just. too. hard.

VS: You're a moron. You've continually pushed flawed arguments, or even ignored posts that point out I wasn't talking about a hysterectomy (as just one example.) There's a lot that I find amusing and really annoying about your debating and communication styles. You just cannot help but be patronizing. Rather than go into that-- the fact that you started criticizing other people's spelling...the fact that you went to THAT LEVEL just shows you've got very little to work with in discussing this.

And this thread has a pretty handy title already:
"I'm 23 and want my tubes tied. How do I make it happen?"

You've told me everything BUT how to make that happen, but luckily, I've gotten the information from other people. Why don't you make you're own thread and call it:

"I'm pro-choice, but I'll pretend that you've called me pro-life. I'll prove I'm pro-choice by completely negating a woman's ability to choose a form of family planning that I disagree with. And because there's a chance someone will change their mind about that form of family planning means that they shouldn't get it at all. Even if they've already come up with alternative plans for families if they do change their mind."

Drat. Too long of a title. I'm sure you'll figure out something concise. Be sure to include lots of typos that are spelled correct but make absolutely no sense in this discussion.

britt244
10-30-2006, 10:14 PM
This thread should be called "Tell me what I want to hear or be verbally attacked".
wow.. maybe its just me, but how many times does the girl have to tell you.. YOU NEVER ANSWERED HER QUESTION. and fancy, good luck, let us know how everything turns out for you and what you end up with :)

Katrine
10-30-2006, 10:17 PM
Ok, I'm pro-death. Not pro-choice, but pro-death. More abortion, more tubal ligations, mass birth control, increase the death penalty, and diminish the world's population. That's just me in my goth ivory tower. :)

With that said, ViolaStrings makes some cogent points based on reality TODAY. Instead of simply attacking her, read that she is stating the case for what DOES happen. BC sucks, but the medical community has to CYA due to societal litigousnous. Its a pain in the ass to get it done, but there are options outside of a hysterectomy. Is it fair? Should it be easier? Perhaps and probably, but it isn't, so be aware of all the factors that have led to where we stand today in terms of women's reproductive rights.

Fancy, if you want an effective way to tie your tubes, PM me and I'll tell you. I can't promise you'll like it though..........

fancygirl
10-30-2006, 11:01 PM
I'm almost afraid to ask ;)

VS good point was that I may change my mind. However-- that and the way she derided sterilization (like by thinking we were talking about hysterectomy when we were talking about TLs or Essure.) She just rubs me the wrong way, which was why I went over and above what I normally do by going point by point through her posts.

After talking to Planned Parenthood today, I feel like it's not going to be a problem to get sterilized. I'm leaning towards Essure because it has a higher rate of effectiveness, even higher than Depo Provera (by .1%) which is what I wanted in the first place. I have 19 doctors in my county alone to talk to. It's funny, I asked about vasectomies for my SO, and my RN told me he would be seen at this one clinic about an hour away (because the one in my town doesn't have the medical services for that) but that it wouldn't be a problem. If he doesn't want kids, he doesn't want kids. The difficulty would be whether or not CA state would pay for it. The irony here for a man is that they care more about how the vasectomy is going to be covered than if he REALLY REALLY REALLY wants it, and jumps through all the appropriate hoops.

I'll let everyone know how hard it is in my neck of the woods so if someone has been having the same issues, they now have more choices in the US to get it done.

So far, through this post, I've found I don't have to go to Thailand: there's a clinic in NC, and one in Minneapolis, and another in Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure there'll be one by me too.

VenusGoddess
10-30-2006, 11:18 PM
When did I ever judge her for not wanting to have children?

Throughout this whole thread. Which is why after she'd told you numerous times that she wanted sterilization to not have kids, you kept coming back with the "you might later..."

That's a judgement...saying that she doesn't REALLY know what she wants. ::)


This thread should be called "Tell me what I want to hear or be verbally attacked".

The title of this thread was about getting a TL...NOT about alternative options so that maybe she could have kids when she turns 30. Maybe if you read it a bit more, you would have realized it.

Another judgement on YOUR part. You don't agree with her decision because she is "so young" and so you spout out all kinds of info that she is not interested in thinking that she's not done any research...or she doesn't know what she's doing.

kittenkat
10-31-2006, 12:38 AM
FG is a woman. An ADULT WOMAN. An adult woman needs to be able to make her own choices, just like an adult male. If she regrets them later- that's the responsibility it takes to be an adult and to have freedom of choice. Telling women that they shouldn't be sterilized because they might regret it later is like telling women they can't have abortions because they may regret it later. The bottom line is that other people do not have the right to make choices over your repreductive rights- YOU do. Not your doc, not a lawyer, not a politician, but YOU. With choices come risks and responsibilities.

GoldCoastGirl
10-31-2006, 01:50 AM
Ok, I'm pro-death. Not pro-choice, but pro-death. More abortion, more tubal ligations, mass birth control, increase the death penalty, and diminish the world's population. That's just me in my goth ivory tower. :)

Is their room for one more? Please !! I want in! Goodness knows the planet needs all the help she can get to control the continued breeding. Long gone are the days where we bred due to trying to survive and continue the species.

I watched Lord of War ( http://imdb.com/title/tt0399295/ ) and thought I would make the perfect mogual! ;D

Okay now back to your reguarly scheduled programming........

Vegas_dancer
10-31-2006, 02:56 AM
Wow.....6 pages of arguments completely irrelevant to the original post.


I guess she should have titled this post "only tell me what I want to hear, those possesing opposing opinions will be attacked". She made a post asking for the opinions of strangers and she got it.

The original post was simply stating that she wanted her tubes tied and was asking for advice on how to get that done. NEVER did she say that she was concidering getting it done, and wanted opinions on the subject.

I try to stay out of arguments. I dont like the drama. BUT. One thing really irkes me.


You are clearly a genius, as illustrated by your name-calling and misspelling of "litigation".
If you are gonna try to sound smart and correct people on their spelling, make sure youve got it right first. Please.

ligation

n : (surgery) tying a duct or blood vessel with a ligature (as to prevent bleeding during surgery)

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

litigation

n : a legal proceeding in a court; a judicial contest to determine and enforce legal rights [syn: judicial proceeding]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Ok....sorry to jump in...

Sirona
10-31-2006, 05:14 AM
This thread should be called "Tell me what I want to hear or be verbally attacked".

Omg are you for real?

Ya 'cause comparing people who want or have had a tubal ligation to an fat lazy obese person who won't excercise ... that's not a verbal attack right? That was rays of fucking sunshine. You compared women to nothing more than breeding stock. Nothing negative there! Oh and hey, us sterilized folk might be engaging in risky sexual behavior. Saying it makes us slutty... nothing wrong there!

Pot - Kettle - Black

Look the fact is your argument against tubal ligation was riddled with crappy analogies. You listed risks, costs, etc associated with tubal ligation. When I listed facts that negated your argument i'm suddenly being unfair and mean.

Oh and ligation is the act of binding or of applying a ligature, litigation is a lawsuit. I could be wrong but I don't think anyone is suing thier fallopian tubes. Get over it, you used the wrong term.

The fact is you can't wrap your head around the idea that a woman could not want children and never change her mind. I have kids, love kids, wanted kids and I get it. Totally. Children are a lifelong thing. They never go away. Some people do not want that responsibility ever.

ps - No offense but if you want to debate a subject you're going to hear shit you don't agree with. Learn to live with that fact and you'll be a happier person and get along better in life.

kittenkat
10-31-2006, 12:34 PM
I heard about this from the R.N. I don't think this type of health care would cover you in case of cancer or anything serious like that, would it?

No, but something (annual exams, BC, etc) is better than nothing.

jasmine
10-31-2006, 01:39 PM
Even an IUD is impossible to get if you haven't had kids.

Actually they are easy to get in the US even if you haven't had children. I was so happy with mine, my friend, who is 24 and childless just got one. Her Dr didn't give her any problem at all. She got the non-hormonal one like me, it lasts 10 years and no side effects, except some women will have a slightly heavier period.

Jasmine

FrustratedBunny
11-01-2006, 02:05 PM
I have an IUD. I got it when I was about 30. I've never had kids. My doctor was great. She even asked if I wanted my tubes tied and didn't flinch when I told her I didn't want children. If you would be willing to go to New Orleans I could give you my doctor's name and you could call and see if she'd be willing to do it. I love her to death. I've been going to her since I was 16.

Sinful333
11-01-2006, 03:34 PM
It took me 9 years of horrible pain and cancer to finally find an OB that would talk my insurance into a hysterectomy.

My suggestion... Go Doctor shopping (in a good way for you, not in a bad way) until you find one that has the same sort of views on this and will respect your opinion. They should banter with your insurance company until they finally say yes.

tampadancer
11-01-2006, 04:31 PM
Okay, I just read through this whole thread and I have to chime in.

I do NOT consider what VS said to be "judgemental." She has simply been trying to say that MANY WOMEN REGRET getting their tubes tied. She did not say, "FANCY, YOU should not get your tubes tied because you're going to change your mind." Instead, she made a generalized statement, explaining WHY it is so difficult for young women to get sterilized. A year ago (when I was 23), I was hell bent against having children. Not me. No way. Hate the boogers. Never.

A year later, that maternal instinct has kicked in and I do want kids someday.

It WOULD be unethical for a doctor to sterilize a woman who was in her early twenties. I don't get why people are getting so irate and heated. COME ON, we're all adults. It's possible to have a discussion or debate without going crazy.

Seriously. You guys are worse than politicians. Chill.

Sirona
11-01-2006, 04:49 PM
"You want all the benefits of birth control and none of the long term hassle. You just want to submit yourself to surgery and be done with it. You're like a fat person who doesn't want to exercise and eat right, they just get liposuction."


What the heck do you call that??

I've got no issue with someone cautioning someone to think long and hard before making a pretty permanant decision. It's good advice.

But that.... eesh.

kittenkat
11-01-2006, 05:53 PM
It WOULD be unethical for a doctor to sterilize a woman who was in her early twenties. I don't get why people are getting so irate and heated. COME ON, we're all adults. It's possible to have a discussion or debate without going crazy.

You know what, I get irate when anyone makes judgements on someone's decision that fundamentally is none of their business- especially when they give misleading information. VS did not just say- think about it. She made unfounded and assumptive comments regarding FG's question.

Doctors aren't responsible for you when you get elective surgery as an adult. You are over 18 and an adult. A doctor should allow you to think about your options and not coerce you in any way, but are you all for someone else making a decision about YOUR BODY for you? Because that's the bottom line when you say "unethical." You're saying that adult women are incapable of making reproductive decisions. That's the responsibility of an adult of freedom is that you might make the wrong choice. Doesn't mean that you should take away that right for other folks.

FANCYGIRL did not say that she didn't want kids- she's interested in adoption and fostering. That's a different story- some ppl just don't want biological kids. I didn't want kids starting at 16, and haven't changed my mind 15 years later. This isn't about maternal instinct not kicking in, it's about a well-considered choice of not wanting to bring MORE kids into this world. I'm the same way- I don't want biological kids, and I'm sick of ppl telling me I my change my mind. I won't, but even if I did, it's none of anyone's business. If I had my tubes tied at 23, I wouldn't regret my decision- and if I did, tough shit. Being an adult means that you make your own choices, and there's a lt of responsibility that comes with that.

tampadancer
11-01-2006, 07:10 PM
We're going to have to agree to disagree. We interpret this issue differently. I just think that the attacks on VS were not all warranted. And Sirona, she made the fat people comparison (a bad one, I agree) AFTER FG went nuts on her. Fancy turned it into a flame war.

I'm entitled to my opinion, and you are entitled to yours. ;D

ViolaStrings
11-01-2006, 08:34 PM
Thanks to anyone who stood up for the idea that adults have discussions and not turn them into flame wars. Let's reveiw how this started:

I said...
"Get an IUD. Low risk of side effects, and it's effective for either 5 or 10 years, depending on the type you get. No need for surgery! Or, just take birth control pills and never take the sugar pills and you won't get your period.

Getting your tubes tied WILL not stop your period, it just doesn't let eggs get to the location they need to be to be fertilized. It's like a road block. You can't have your uterus and ovaries removed. You need your ovaries because they secrete estrogen. Without them you'd need to be on major hormones. It's not like you can just have everything removed and you'd be ok. Find a gyno who sympathizes and plan a course of action.

I fully support your decision to have total control of your body - just educate yourself, know your options, and don't be impulsive."

And this was the response:

"are you effing kidding me? have you even seen my post? This is not an impulsive thing. I've not wanted kids since I was a teenager and have been very firm about this the entire time I've been on Depo (five years.) don't be patronizing and only offer advice if you're not going to be useful...you've said your piece about the IUD, but you're not paying attention when I tell you I DON"T WANT TO BE ON BIRTH CONTROL, including...BIRTH CONTROL PILLS! images/smilies/tongue.gif"

I should have known at that point I wasn't speaking to someone objective. After that all bets were off and I didn't care about offending anyone. Nothing I said in my first respsonse, or any afterwards was aggressive or judgemental and I was met with major hostility. I was sincerely trying to be helpful and I was called patronizing.

And this is how the whole conversation has gone...

I say "You might change your mind about wanting biological children someday. Why not try a non-permanent but long term option, just in case?" and the response was "You are ignorant. You are clearly anti-adoption. You're worse than bible thumpers. You insult a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. You obviously believe anyone who doesn't want to have children has something wrong with them. You call women sluts. " NONE OF WHICH ARE TRUE ABOUT ME. If any of you knew me in person you would know that I am a total feminist. I never said it was wrong to not want to have children - NEVER. I introduce a viewpoint that is VALID and it is interpreted as judgmental and anti-feminist.

What is the intended goal for FG? To not get pregnant.
Are there ways for her to accomplish this without the need for potentially irreversible surgery? Yes, and these methods are just as effective and safer and their side effects and risks are significantly lower than surgical means.
Do women often regret being sterilized? Yes, 1 in 3 times.
Is it unfair to suggest that she might change her mind and shouldn't keep her options closed? No.
Did she come to the internet and make a post that anyone here could respond to? Yes, and reacted aggressively to anyone who didn't share her beliefs exactly.
Does FG have the right to do whatever she wants with her body? Of course.
Is there a possibility she could change her mind? Of course, even if she doesn't know it, which is why she probably won't find a doctor for tubal ligation. No one knows how they're going to feel and think in 10 years or 20 years - which was my whole point.

I never insulted anyone's life choices. I never attacked anyone's beliefs. I just suggested an alternate method and was demonized.

ViolaStrings
11-01-2006, 11:17 PM
"You want all the benefits of birth control and none of the long term hassle. You just want to submit yourself to surgery and be done with it. You're like a fat person who doesn't want to exercise and eat right, they just get liposuction."


What the heck do you call that??

I've got no issue with someone cautioning someone to think long and hard before making a pretty permanant decision. It's good advice.

But that.... eesh.

read all the shit I got before I made that statement.

ViolaStrings
11-01-2006, 11:48 PM
This is for everyone:

I didn't come here to tell it's her biological destiny and duty to the world to have children.

It's a matter of odds and consequences. Let's think in terms of best and worst case scenarios:

STERILIZATION:
Best case: She gets sterilized, never changes her mind about not wanting biological children. TERRIFIC.
Worst case: She gets sterilized, and in ten years for some reason she changes her mind and wants to have a biological child of her own. IT IS WITHIN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY. She has tubal ligation reversal, which has a success rate of only 70-80%, and she is one of the unlucky 20-30%. She can never have a biological child of her own. HORRIBLE.
OR
She is one of the unlucky people who dies under anesthesia, or gets a life-threatening infection from surgery. IT HAPPENS.
In this scenario, one out of three outcomes are desirable.

LONG TERM BIRTH CONTROL:
1. She never changes her mind, never ceases her choosen form of birth control, and never gets pregnant. TERRIFIC.
2. She changes her mind, ceases her method of birth control, and is able to become pregnant. TERRIFIC.
Two best case scenarios, no downside WHATSOFUCKINGEVER

So what are the advantages of sterilization again?

You all have taken this from a matter of PRACTICALITY AND FORESIGHT and made it into an ideological debate about a woman's right to choose. NO ONE SAID SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE. She has every right to be sexually active and never become pregnant. At first I was trying to be sincerely helpful, but then everyone dug into me, and the gloves came off. I used the same tone that was used towards me. I only insulted people or used a hostile tone after a much larger degree of insult and hostility was directed towards me.

None of you will believe me because you've already cast me into the role of the pro-life bible thumping asshole who thinks women are just baby factories: I would DIE for a woman's right to choose. I do not think that people who choose not to have children have something wrong with them. I think people who adopt are wonderful. I think people who never have children usually contribute to the world at large to a great degree in another capacity.

Let it be noted that no one attacked the people in this thread that said children are awful, people who want to have children are selfish, and population should be controlled because there's too many people in the world. Those people are hypocrites. Part of a woman's right to choose is to be able to choose to have a baby, or 10 if she wants and can care for them, which you have conveniently forgotten.

So, I'm politically incorrect to suggest that sterilization on such a young person is unethical because she has 20+ years of fertility left where she could change her mind, and there are countless other ways to prevent pregnancy just as effectively and more safely that are reversible. In the long term birth control scenario, she ALWAYS has the right to choose, either way.

You all are somehow correct to say that performing an operation on a 23 year old that could permanently take away a her ability to have a child is ok. This is taking away her right to CHOOSE to change her mind - even though she may never, it's a harrowing situation.

It's not about doctors or ME telling her what to do with her body, it's about planning for the worst possible scenario.

Vegas_dancer
11-02-2006, 01:25 AM
LONG TERM BIRTH CONTROL:
1. She never changes her mind, never ceases her choosen form of birth control, and never gets pregnant. TERRIFIC.
2. She changes her mind, ceases her method of birth control, and is able to become pregnant. TERRIFIC.
Two best case scenarios, no downside WHATSOFUCKINGEVER

Since you are adamant that birth control is the best way to go, you just left out the consequences of birth control.

What if she does get pregnant on birth control? It happens. Its not 100% garenteed. The odds of getting pregnant after sterilization are much slimmer.

What if her body simply cannot handle the hormones of birth control? Of course, there is the copper IUD, but there are risks associated with that as well.
What is she never changes her mind about wanting children, and 10 years down the road accidentially gets pregnant? Of course, she could get an abortion, but why not prevent that if you can?

What about the effects on your body of staying on long term birth control? A lot of birht control hasn't been around long enough for the effects to be known yet.
Take DEPO for example. I was on that for 8 years. When I got off it....I found out that Depo causes weakened bones, and you should take calcium suppliments. I never knew that. I am high risk for osteoporosis now. They did not know that when I was taking it.

There are multiple examples of the downside to long term birth control.

Sure, there are downsides to sterilization as well. There are risks associated with the surgery. There is the chance you could change your mind. But even if you did change your mind, there are other ways to have babies, becides trying to get a reversal. Adoption, foster, surrogate.......



Anyway, my point is, there are risks and consequences associated with either option. Its a matter of weighing the risks, and choosing the best method for you. In this case, she feels that sterilization is her best method. You do not feel that is true. To each their own.


It's not about doctors or ME telling her what to do with her body, it's about planning for the worst possible scenario

What about this wors case senerio?

a girl goes on the long term birth control. Accidentially gets pregnant, but doesn't find out until it is to late to get an abortion. For whatever reason, she does not give it up for adoption. She ends up having a baby she does not want, and treats badly. It happens all the time.
If she just got sterilized like she wanted in the first place, that would have never happened.



Im not being rude, or trying to jump into an argument at all, but it seems to me that VS, you are not able to see the whole picture, and can only see one side of things. The side you are in favor of. Just try to concider that the alternatives you are in favor of may not be the right method for everyone.

kittygirl
11-02-2006, 01:35 AM
I don't want to make many comments here....

but, is there an age limit for a sex change, I mean it effectively renders you sterile too, right?

I don't know if those are cool either, but doctors perform them.

I have a friend who says: "they'll let you cut your dick off and turn it inside out, but they won't let you kill yourself if you're in terminal pain."

i don't want kids either now, but I am afraid I may change my mind, or just don't want any more surgeries.

I'm sure people just want you to be happy with your final decision.

ViolaStrings
11-02-2006, 02:21 AM
Since you are adamant that birth control is the best way to go, you just left out the consequences of birth control.

What if she does get pregnant on birth control? It happens. Its not 100% garenteed. The odds of getting pregnant after sterilization are much slimmer.

What if her body simply cannot handle the hormones of birth control? Of course, there is the copper IUD, but there are risks associated with that as well.
What is she never changes her mind about wanting children, and 10 years down the road accidentially gets pregnant? Of course, she could get an abortion, but why not prevent that if you can?

What about the effects on your body of staying on long term birth control? A lot of birht control hasn't been around long enough for the effects to be known yet.
Take DEPO for example. I was on that for 8 years. When I got off it....I found out that Depo causes weakened bones, and you should take calcium suppliments. I never knew that. I am high risk for osteoporosis now. They did not know that when I was taking it.

There are multiple examples of the downside to long term birth control.

Sure, there are downsides to sterilization as well. There are risks associated with the surgery. There is the chance you could change your mind. But even if you did change your mind, there are other ways to have babies, becides trying to get a reversal. Adoption, foster, surrogate.......

Anyway, my point is, there are risks and consequences associated with either option. Its a matter of weighing the risks, and choosing the best method for you. In this case, she feels that sterilization is her best method. You do not feel that is true. To each their own.

What about this wors case senerio?

a girl goes on the long term birth control. Accidentially gets pregnant, but doesn't find out until it is to late to get an abortion. For whatever reason, she does not give it up for adoption. She ends up having a baby she does not want, and treats badly. It happens all the time.
If she just got sterilized like she wanted in the first place, that would have never happened.

Im not being rude, or trying to jump into an argument at all, but it seems to me that VS, you are not able to see the whole picture, and can only see one side of things. The side you are in favor of. Just try to concider that the alternatives you are in favor of may not be the right method for everyone.

Tubal ligation DOES have a failure rate. Women CAN get pregnant afterwards. The failure rate for any birth control approved by the FDA is slim, similar to sterilization.

I do see the whole picture. She doesn't want to have a baby. She has that right. Even if she NEVER changes her mind, there are easier ways with fewer risks.

I understand that people who are sterilized who regret it can adopt. But when you want to have a child of your own, it's a powerful biological urge. It's one of the hardest things to go through to not be able to. I don't know why anyone might set themselves up for that if they didn't HAVE to.

ViolaStrings
11-02-2006, 02:25 AM
I don't want to make many comments here....

but, is there an age limit for a sex change, I mean it effectively renders you sterile too, right?

I don't know if those are cool either, but doctors perform them.

I have a friend who says: "they'll let you cut your dick off and turn it inside out, but they won't let you kill yourself if you're in terminal pain."

i don't want kids either now, but I am afraid I may change my mind, or just don't want any more surgeries.

I'm sure people just want you to be happy with your final decision.

People who get sex changes have to go through years of counseling and psychological evaluation. They have to LIVE as a member of their desired gender for at least a year, and the sex change process isn't just a single surgery - there's hormone treatments, voice counseling, facial surgeries to make you more masculine or feminine, breast implants or breast removal, etc. It takes years, and the genital re-assignment surgery is usually one of the last.

Good doctors don't take stuff like this lighty.

I totally agree about your euthanasia comment.

Nautilus
11-02-2006, 03:37 AM
i was staunchly anti-baby too. i just put up with shitty depo side effects and had been *lucky* not to get knocked up in between times. my experience with depo to the arm stick was fucking shocking. perpetual spotting, fatter than ever, cry at drop of hat, cheat on bf for no good reason etc. meh. hormones. if you can avoid it, don't shift. i think i've said before that my doc has taken out as many sticks as she as put in. bad sign.

i turned 29 and shit changed. it was not my mind it was my body. bio clock is real.

i totally respect your state of mind and reasons for wanting to get clamped. it is a shame there isn't a method that allows us to go backwards and forwards. i hate all hormonal birth control because it turns women nutso etc.

the med institution probably has significant reason to make the rules they do (something along the lines of getting sued for not counselling a girl of your age properly about the consequences etc). some beyotch would probably sue them because she couldn't get pregnant at 30 after getting her clamps on. people do that shit.

if there was a good therapeutic reason for them to do it, they would. there are very young girls in our lawbooks who have had therapeutic hysterectomies (is there any other kind) and sterilisation.

if you have the balls - just start making legal waves about women's physical autonomy and see what happens. i don't know what your legal rules are over there - but it is a decent stand point.

just be really sure about what you ask for...

Lysondra
11-02-2006, 04:11 AM
You do know that there's a chance (albeit small) that ANY birth control can leave a woman permanantly sterile? I'm just sayin'.

Sirona
11-02-2006, 06:20 AM
read all the shit I got before I made that statement.

I did read it all but thank you for assuming I didn't.

You still haven't responded to my rebuttal in reference to your post about the cons of sterilization as opposed to other forms of birth control such as the pill.

I know you recently mentioned that sterilization has the same failure rate as the pill. While theoretically correct the statement is flawed and here is why.

Birth control effectiveness statistics are based on the constant correct usage of the birth control type. There in lies the issue. You can forget to take your pill or put a condom on wrong. Tubal ligation removes that issue entirely hence it is a more secure and effective form of preventing pregnancy.

Sirona
11-02-2006, 06:29 AM
Just wanted to add quickly to that last post with some percentages to sort of highlight what i'm trying to get across. I'm only going to list the more common forms of BC for the sake of time and sanity.

Birth Control Methods and Thier Failure Rates
(Number of Pregnancies per 100 Womne During 1st Year of Use)

The Pill
Perfect Use: 0.3
Typical Use: 8.0

Condoms
Perfect Use: 2.0
Typical Use: 15.0

Diaphram
Perfect Use: 6.0
Typical Use: 16.0

Spermicidal Foams/Jellies
Perfect Use: 15.0
Typical Use: 29.0

Sterilization, Men
Perfect Use: 0.1
Typical Use: 0.15

Sterilization, Women
Perfect Use: 0.5
Typical Use: 0.5

Mastridonicus
11-02-2006, 06:36 AM
ABSTINENCE!

High Five!

High five?

ooooohhhhhhhhh

GoldCoastGirl
11-02-2006, 06:38 AM
Just wanted to pipe up and say that I can totally empathise with the OP (original poster) as I am now 28 years of age and have the exact frame of mind (staunchy no children) as I was at 23 and even 15 when I originally made the decision.

Time has not changed my mind. Time has only made me even more stubborn/staunch on having no children as I have seen time and time again way too many reasons to not have children in this day and age.

So take heart. I can understand. I can empathise. I too have been on Depo all those years (with a six month break earlier this year) and lucky for me have never had to cross the abortion bridge (never been pregnant). I basically have given up on trying to find someone or anyone who will approve me for such surgery before I am 30 years of age.

I am even prepared for the possibility that I may not be able to get this surgery until I am nealry 35 years of age for whatever reason. I don't like it that I have to wait. I don't like it that I have to use Depo. Yet I do what I gotta do until that day comes when I am approved for the tubal ligation/sterialisation (sp?).

:hugs: