View Full Version : Duke lacrosse players DNA results in...
Tara Nicole
12-15-2006, 07:01 PM
Defense attorney motions are not evidence. I think we should wait to pass judgement until the trial when the real evidence comes out, not statements from attorneys on one side or the other about what the evidence may or may not lead one to conclude.
The media is always an accomplice to this mulling over of partial evidence for its entertainment value. Basically, the media doesn't know squat about the big picture, but they won't ever say that; instead they troll you with little pieces of the case just to boost ratings.
Well said and so very true. I agree 100%
forcefit
12-15-2006, 07:59 PM
The high-fiving among the dudes in this thread disturbs me for some reason. I can't put my finger on it.Because you are a brainwashed misandrist sexist who fears men awakening to reality? Like watching your kids not believing in Santa Claus anymore. Or a master seeing his obedient slaves starting to organize and revolt! :O
Deogol - Some of the most stirring testimony for how misandrist our culture has become in the wake of a generation of unbridled female chauvinism, professional victimhood and patronization include:
Former NOW feminist, Warren Farrell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Farrell):
In the early 1970s, he was a champion of feminism, serving on the board of the New York chapter of the National Organization for Women (NOW). Within a few years, he left NOW, frustrated with what he saw as their female exclusiveness and disregard for men's issues.
And interestingly, a lesbian who went undercover in male for 18 months in drag, Norah Vincent:
"Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have, but they don't have it better," she said. "They need our sympathy. They need our love, and maybe they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together."
Ironically, Vincent said, it took experiencing life as a man for her to appreciate being a woman. "I really like being a woman. … I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege (http://a.abcnews.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982)."Apparently, the grass wasn't greener over here...but there.
Tara Nicole
12-15-2006, 08:16 PM
^ none of that supports your claim that half of reported rapes are false. The fact of the matter is it is EXTREEMLY rare for a women to report a false claim of rape. Not to mention rape is under reported which makes false claims even more rare.
Rape is one of the most underreported crimes. In 2002, only 39% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials (DOJ 2003).
And while you seem to think that rape is not a serious problem in the least the CDC reports that one in six women (17%) and one in thirty-three men (3%) reported experiencing an attempted or completed rape at some time in their lives.
CDC also reports that women are more likely to be victims of sexual violence than men: 78% of the victims of rape and sexual assault are women and 22% are men.
You bitch and whine about the "poor men who suffer at the hands of women" and yet the CDC reports that most perpetrators of violence are in fact men.
That goes for both violence against women AND violence against men.
CDC facts on this are:
Among acts of SV committed against women since the age of 18, 100% of rapes, 92% of physical assaults, and 97% of stalking acts were perpetrated by men.
SV against men is also mainly male violence: 70% of rapes, 86% of physical assaults, and 65% of stalking acts were perpetrated by men .
I wonder ForceFit (interesting choice of a screen name considering this subject matter) do you even consider rape of women to even be a crime? I ask because it's hard to tell if you do or do not based on what you write here.
forcefit
12-15-2006, 08:29 PM
^ none of that supports your claim that half of reported rapes are false. The fact of the matter is it is EXTREEMLY rare for a women to report a false claim of rape. Not to mention that vast numbers of women who suffer phyiscal violence other than rape at the hands of men.
I wonder do you even consider rape of women to even be a crime? It's hard to tell if you do or do not based on what you post.BS. Go back to this link here - where in study after study - 40%-60% of rape charges were admittedly FALSIFIED (http://byrdeye.blogspot.com/2006/11/easily-half-of-rape-allegations-are.html). This number is WELL-DOCUMENTED, CONSISTENT AND FACTUAL. Of course this fact isn't going to get widely reported - because rape is a great scare tactic used for feminist fundraising (see Emily's List). It's no different than Dubya exploiting terr0rism to win more votes and pass more anti-Constiutional legislation.
But, of course I am against forced, non-consensual sex. Just like I am against false accusations of that by conniving, lying tricks. Which again, is quite common these days due to public sexist bias and "rape shield" laws passed by feminists in the 70s.
And while you seem to think that rape is not a serious problem the CDC reports that one in six women (17%) and one in thirty-three men (3%) reported experiencing an attempted or completed rape at some time in their lives.Actually, rape is OVERREPORTED in the US - only because feminists loosened the definition of rape so much to jack the numbers up (and generate more sympathy/funding). That is why the US rate for reported sexual abuse is now 59X the world average.
http://christianparty.net/r2000.3.gif
Meanwhile, the US has the lowest percent of prosecutions of women. Only 5% of all prosecutions in the US are against women, compared to 15% in most other countries:
http://christianparty.net/r2000.4.gif
Sense the imbalance and gender bias here, yet?
Jenny
12-15-2006, 08:32 PM
Honey - you realize he is just baiting you right? There is no point in arguing, because he doesn't want to actually argue points, he wants to rile you up. That's why he comes across as a tool - people get more riled at that kind of stupidity. If he came across as intelligent we'd all be trying to converse with him as opposed to just being irritated.
Either that or he's serious and falls asleep every night clutching his tear and bloodstained copy of Iron John (to use Cookie's perfect imagery). Either way - you're talking at an unusually obnoxious wall.
Now - to be clear - I'm not advising that you avoid doing this for any reason but your own sanity. So far as I understand this is a free zone, so whatever you do in here doesn't count. If you still want to, knock yourself out.
Tara Nicole
12-15-2006, 08:39 PM
Jenny -yeah I know but I figured I might as well get the REAL facts out there for others who may buy into his fucked up thinking even for one tiny second.
Ofcourse someone would have to be pretty twisted to believe as he does claims like these from his so called fact sheet are real & true.
Here is a nice little example from that link of what Forcefit thinks are facts: "Rape" is often a matter of perspective
I'm sure it is.. that is in your sick mind anyway.
then there is this: Women, as a rule, are such pathological liars 24/7 they shouldn't even be allowed to be sworn in under oath in a court room
I think we are getting a VERY clear picture of what Forcefit's opinions on women are since he used the website this trash comes from as an example of what he calls "facts"
But this is the real kicker, imo, from his link: Rape doesn't just happen in a vacuum. It takes 2 to tango and those situations can all be easily avoided if you just act like a lady.
Right-o.... I mean one man may think it's unlady like to work outside the home for example...I guess since he thinks that is not being a lady then well - ya get the picture.
Then there is his referring to that very interesting experiment that Norah Vincent did where he conveniently left out this part from that link: Vincent said, the men talked about rage, often their rage toward women, and what they would do physically and violently toward women.
"A lot of this was blowing off steam. …They would talk about fantasizing about chopping up their wives or something.
I guess that part didn't really support his position of men being the real victims of society too well, lol !
At any rate, I'm done with him now. I have more than exposed him and his kind for what they truely are.... ASSHOLES. So I have since put him on my ignore list because he is either a troll or is one of those rare men who are just pissed that they can't just force any woman they want to have sex with him without dealing with legal repercussions.
Jenny
12-15-2006, 08:40 PM
Hey, I'm kind of,a little bit, just a smidge easily baited. I'm all about the solidarity in being strong and free from baiting.
forcefit
12-15-2006, 08:42 PM
Jenny- Yeah I know but I figured I might as well get the REAL facts out there for others who may buy into his fucking up thinking even for one tiny second. I'm done with him now and have put him on the ignore list :)Lol, you never disproved my FACTS. They are REAL.
All you proved was that most SV is committed by men - which I agree.
What you failed to disprove was that about half of rape charges are false. Because it is true, and you know it (just can't admit it).
VenusGoddess
12-16-2006, 07:28 AM
What you failed to disprove was that about half of rape charges are false. Because it is true, and you know it (just can't admit it).
And, where is your proof that 1/2 of all rape charges are FALSE? I've known girls who were raped and NEVER REPORTED it.
I was raped and never reported it. Oh, wait...you probably think I'm lying. ::)
Deogol
12-16-2006, 10:47 AM
Regarding false claims there is more evidence from Canada that they are encountering a number of 30% as fraudulent claims:
As far as believing forcefit - there are certainly some people on here who believe in a dogmatic view of female and male positions in society. No amount of evidence will ever shift their view from what is a belief and not reasoned by evidence.
Tara, you asked why I had such a bug up my ass about this kind of stuff. Here are two stories from my own family...
1) My brother was fingered as the father of a woman's child. She wanted welfare so the government was like "we ain't paying what the father should be" and so since he admittedly had sex with her they considered him the best bet for the father. He took a paternity test because his air force lawyer said not to simply give in. Well. The test turned out to be negative - he was not the father. The government continued to hound him based on the accusation of this woman even though scientifically he was obviously cleared. Once again, they ordered a paternity test "because they didn't like how the first one came out." Again it was negative. Then it was quieted down some which was good because the guy was turning into an emotional wreck - twice testing proved he was not the father. Then out of no where - once again they demanded he take a paternity test and he complied. Again - negative. The "system" gave her the power to totally disrupt his life for months at a time and then a "jack in the box" surprise event again even though it should have been over with in the first week. That is the power of a woman's accusation in this society - even scientific testing can't refute it.
2) I had a real head case for a girlfriend. She was/is (I don't talk much with her anymore) an alcoholic. For three years I bent over backwards through multiple 30 day rehabs, innumerable detoxes, and just crazy bullshit an alcoholic can put a person through when they are drunk (most of the time.) She was sober just enough to see she was a wonderful person with a horrible affliction. This love for a person who was sober maybe 50% of the time gave me the strength to try and help her (expensively out of MY OWN POCKET) get a handle on things. Finally it reached a point where she was drunk all the fucking time and making suicidal calls to her AA sponsor who of course is required to call 911. I mean, an addict making suicidal threats is nothing to take lightly. So for three months I would be coming home to the police at my home at least two times a week. Then one day a cop pulls me off to the side and starts asking ME questions about shit. Like the time she told him she broker her wrist (we were doing karate and I blocked her kick, she lost balance and fell, got a very slight hairline fracture in her wrist), about how we experimented with bondage at one time (she's the one who liked to get spanked!), blah blah blah. Needless to say it was making me look like a horrible monster - he got all this information out of her while she was blitzed out of her mind. After talking to me, he explained that she made an accusation that could be viewed of as rape, but that she recanted under further questioning. I don't think she said anything out of malice - she was just out of her mind on drugs - but the dude definitely laid some heavy weight on my shoulders and I definitely was "this close" to being arrested for something. Not to mention he and his buddy would show up out of no where to "make sure everything was OK." Well - finally - she screwed up enough where the police flat out arrested her and hauled HER ass to jail. That was the moment when I changed the locks on the door and got her a hotel room for three days until she found a half-way house that would take her in. I was pretty much done with her. So... I have been accused falsely of rape by a woman (and yes, I admit she recanted when she got her brain out of alcohol) who I spent 10's of thousands of dollars to aid with her addiction as well as bent over backwards emotionally WAY TO FUCKING LONG putting up with her shit. When you are in a room surrounded by cops asking about your sex life (not taking into account anything that I ever did to help her - all it took was one mumbled accusation) because some bitch who has been drunk for three days straight is making no sense - taking into account the bullshit your brother went through years earlier - yea - it makes a great influence on the way one thinks about things such as these.
Then add in the stories my friends who went through divorces told me...
I will never fucking trust a woman again. She will need to earn my trust. Until then, in this society, good men must take their relationships with women in a defensive manner. Fucking assholes - they will do whatever they want to. But there is definitely something wrong in this society when it starts coming after good guys and all it takes is an accusation (regardless of the evidence) to make life a living hell.
Jenny
12-16-2006, 11:00 AM
I can see how having to take three paternity tests would ruin your life. Whenever I have to give blood me and my family are traumatized for years after.
Further I can see how not being arrested for something and not being accused of something could really ruin your faith in the opposite sex.
You're right. It is very sad being you. I can see that the universe has completely screwed you over. David Milgaard has nothing on you. Awful. An addicted woman who was misunderstood said that you didn't sexually assault her, and your brother had to take three (3!) whole blood tests. Dreadful.
forcefit
12-16-2006, 11:28 AM
Women, as a rule, are such pathological liars 24/7 they shouldn't even be allowed to be sworn in under oath in a court room
Rape doesn't just happen in a vacuum. It takes 2 to tango and those situations can all be easily avoided if you just act like a lady.
Vincent said, the men talked about rage, often their rage toward women, and what they would do physically and violently toward women.
"A lot of this was blowing off steam. …They would talk about fantasizing about chopping up their wives or something.Your first quote here was taken from an anonymous COMMENT on that blog - not in the blog ITSELF. As usual, you simply ignored all the sourced relevant content of the blog itself (that's already been posted twice here, VenusGoddess) supporting the fact that roughly half of rape charges are false.
Does most "rape" take 2 to tango? As a statistical matter of fact, yes. "Rape" generally occurs when women decide to get wasted around men of low character. I would definitely agree with that. If women were to avoid those 2 factors...their chance of being raped would plummet dramatically.
It's similar to men getting into fights. It also generally involves hanging around areas like bars/parties with intoxicated men of low character. If guys simply avoid those 2 factors, their chances of getting into a streetfight also plummet dramatically.
As far as Norah's quote about male fantasies...you know what one of the top 3 female fantasies is? Getting ABDUCTED AND RAPED BY A STRANGER (http://love.ivillage.com/lnssex/sextaboos/0,,traceycox_85h53lgt-3,00.html)!
It is estimated that 24% of men and 36% of women have had a rape fantasy, and 10% of women report this is their favorite type of fantasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy)Now, if you want to take men's fantasies seriously, then you have to take women's fantasies SERIOUSLY too. So, which is it - do men REALLY want to beat their wives up AND women ACTUALLY want to get raped...or not? ;D
Deogol - Notice how men are supposed to give all "damsels in distress" sympathy at the drop of a hat...but that favor is generally returned only with callous contempt? The whole point to your story that Jenny deliberately missed is that you bent over backwards helping your gf out...and was repaid with a slap in the face due to systemic misandrism. And your friends also got similarly screwed by this system and opportunistic women taking advantage of it! BTW, did you know that in this country, it doesn't even MATTER if you are not the biological father???
"Whether or not you're the biological father doesn't matter -- if someone's got your name, and you've...failed to participate in the court date, then you have an obligation to pay child support, period." (http://byrdeye.blogspot.com/2006/11/paternity-fraud-rampant-but-ok.html)
Again, Jenny's response here only repeating this common misandrist theme...
Classic'sMontana
12-16-2006, 12:06 PM
Wow. Suddenly I feel pretty sick. Shouldn't have eaten that hot dog.
http://www.clarisita.org/media/1/0496.jpg
Jenny
12-16-2006, 12:39 PM
Does most "rape" take 2 to tango? As a statistical matter of fact, yes. "Rape" generally occurs when women decide to get wasted around men of low character. I would definitely agree with that. If women were to avoid those 2 factors...their chance of being raped would plummet dramatically.
Well see. Men shouldn't criminally liable for rape because women shouldn't drink around men of low character. In fact, maybe we should start prosecuting women who get raped. It's likely their own fault, and they've gone and traumatized some guy who is now branded as a rapist because of their own poor judgement and their need to have a couple of drinks. Women ought to have some kind of liability to the men that rape them for putting them in that position. Or that is my opinion. There are all sorts of men in prison for rape that NEVER would have been able to rape a woman if women were kept locked in their homes and weren't free to walk the streets. It's a terrible tragedy. Paul Bernardo would never have been able kidnap and sexually assault and kill Kirsten French if her parents hadn't let her walk to school. And now where is he? Prison. Because her parents were all "Our teenage daughter can leave the house unaccompanied by a man." He really ought to have some remedy for that.
Deogol - Notice how men are supposed to give all "damsels in distress" sympathy at the drop of a hat...but that favor is generally returned only with callous contempt? The whole point to your story that Jenny deliberately missed is that you bent over backwards helping your gf out...and was repaid with a slap in the face due to systemic misandrism. And your friends also got similarly screwed by this system and opportunistic women taking advantage of it! BTW, did you know that in this country, it doesn't even MATTER if you are not the biological father???
Again, Jenny's response here only repeating this common misandrist theme...
Oh, honey. Jenny's comment was only addressing the fact that nobody actually suffered during these terrible ordeals (except the women in question). There was no money that changed hands, nobody went broke, nobody had to make payments, nobody was arrested, let alone charged and convicted. There are MANY women on this site who have had ACTUAL bad things happen to them (as opposed to administrative inconvenience) at the hands of men.
I might point out that sympathy might be more forthcoming if these relatively minor experiences weren't being blown up into an excuse to despise all women and minimize all rape complaints. But you know - that's all rational and stuff, so you probably wouldn't be interested.
Deogol
12-16-2006, 01:44 PM
I can see how having to take three paternity tests would ruin your life. Whenever I have to give blood me and my family are traumatized for years after.
Further I can see how not being arrested for something and not being accused of something could really ruin your faith in the opposite sex.
You're right. It is very sad being you. I can see that the universe has completely screwed you over. David Milgaard has nothing on you. Awful. An addicted woman who was misunderstood said that you didn't sexually assault her, and your brother had to take three (3!) whole blood tests. Dreadful.
You just don't know what you are speaking about, Jenny.
If I were to take your attitude, I should just say "Sex is fun and she hasn't shit to complain about. People do it all the time and it is a natural thing in life. She should just fucking get over it."
You, my little monster, are exactly the type of person destroying this country today. I surely won't cry when it finally catches up to you.
Deogol
12-16-2006, 01:46 PM
You are such a troll, Jenny. You totally thrive off the misery of others, discount valid arguments, and go out of your way to stir up shit with people. You are a classic example.
Any bets on Jenny being the "bitch of the dressing room?"
Jenny
12-16-2006, 01:50 PM
Oh, don't be such a baby.
I would suggest that perhaps - just perhaps - that if you choose to reside in a glass house, perhaps you should come up with a better hobby than throwing stones. You can't be dismissive and offensive to others and then expect them to treat you with considered deference.
Deogol
12-16-2006, 01:53 PM
Oh, don't be such a baby.
I would suggest that perhaps - just perhaps - that if you choose to reside in a glass house, perhaps you should come up with a better hobby than throwing stones. You can't be dismissive and offensive to others and then expect them to treat you with considered deference.
Don't feed the troll.
Jenny
12-16-2006, 01:57 PM
Typical - the backlash-freak can only respond with more and more absurd characterizations.
Anyway, let's put the issue of Deogol's sad, sad life and experiences with women to bed and get back to the issue?
Deogol
12-16-2006, 02:10 PM
Typical - the backlash-freak can only respond with more and more absurd characterizations.
Anyway, let's put the issue of Deogol's sad, sad life and experiences with women to bed and get back to the issue?
You are a troll, Jenny. Subpoena's, lawyers, getting eaten by the process, false accusations and cops in your house mean nothing? I can hardly wait for the next raid thread - I am going to post your words on it. Why? Because your backlash freak responses composed of nothing but insults and curse words will make for good conversation.
Yes, lets get back to the issue - men being accused of rape and yet there is DNA evidence of multiple sex partners none of whom are the men currently caught up in the gears of this society by the media and judicial system - even while a household of witnesses and EVEN THE OTHER DANCER says nothing happened.
You are a shit-stirrer-upper Tra-ooooo-llllll, Jenny. ;)
Jenny
12-16-2006, 02:27 PM
Oh, honey. You're just upset again because I'm smarter than you are. I'll give you a little tip on that, though - it isn't likely to change. You might as well just stop reading my posts.
Deogol
12-16-2006, 02:38 PM
Oh, honey. You're just upset again because I'm smarter than you are. I'll give you a little tip on that, though - it isn't likely to change. You might as well just stop reading my posts.
Another simple insult. Can you do any better, Jenny?
You just keep on bragging about your ego and the rest of us will throw out statistics, web pages, and organizations about society's bashing and vilification of men:
Tara Nicole
12-16-2006, 02:43 PM
Deogol,
I had a feeling you had a personal story that affects the way you see the issue of rape and I am truly sorry that you went through that with your ex. I also think that if every woman based her opinions of or reactions to the opposite sex on a bad experience or two that the human race would become extinct. Historically women have suffered at the hands of men- not the other way around. Are there exceptions, yes. Is it the norm- absolutely not!
The fact of the matter is that false reports of rape are EXTREEMLY rare. The FBI says it is less than 10%. then factor in that the DOJ estimates that over 60% of rapes go unreported and the number of false claims of rape drops to almost nothing. These facts and statistics are why the general population tends to side with the victims rather than the accused.
I also don't think it is out of line for me (or the general population) to have a reasonable amount of faith and trust in the numbers given by the CDC, FBI and DOJ on this subject.
more info on rape in the USA:
According to a study conducted by the National Victim Center, 1.3 women (age 18 and over) in the United States are raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year.
Sexual Assault continues to represent the most rapidly growing violent crime in America . It is estimated that as few as 10 percent of sexual assaults are reported to the police. (American Medical Association 2000).
Jenny
12-16-2006, 02:45 PM
Yes. Like blogs. And columns by Blatchford. What is TL's links to the Department of Justice compared that that.
Yes, honey, I am mocking you instead of engaging with your argument or "evidence". I realize that. I think it is fairly clear that it is because your arguments and "evidence" is incredibly, incredibly dumb, and you haven't really posted anything even remotely credible. That is what makes you mock worthy. So by all means. Post more.
scarlett_vancouver
12-16-2006, 02:56 PM
Give 'em hell, Jenny
Jenny
12-16-2006, 02:59 PM
Give 'em hell, Jenny
God. I'm so lame.
I think the constant studying makes me particularly contentious. Yeah. That's it. It's the studying. It's not a character flaw at all.
scarlett_vancouver
12-16-2006, 03:03 PM
No no, I'm serious! You're saying what we're all thinking, but can't quite put into words...it's nice, I don't have to make the creaky wheels in my head turn, and what I'm thinking still gets said. :)
Deogol
12-16-2006, 03:51 PM
Deogol,
I had a feeling you had a personal story that affects the way you see the issue of rape and I am truly sorry that you went through that with your ex. I also think that if every woman based her opinions of or reactions to the opposite sex on a bad experience or two that the human race would become extinct. Historically women have suffered at the hands of men- not the other way around. Are there exceptions, yes. Is it the norm- absolutely not!
Historically I will agree with you. These days - the story is changing in an exceptional way. The women are becoming just as bad as the men... perhaps an unintended consequence of equal rights.
The fact of the matter is that false reports of rape are EXTREEMLY rare. The FBI says it is less than 10%. then factor in that the DOJ estimates that over 60% of rapes go unreported and the number of false claims of rape drops to almost nothing. These facts and statistics are why the general population tends to side with the victims rather than the accused.
I also don't think it is out of line for me (or the general population) to have a reasonable amount of faith and trust in the numbers given by the CDC, FBI and DOJ on this subject.
more info on rape in the USA:
According to a study conducted by the National Victim Center, 1.3 women (age 18 and over) in the United States are raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year.
Sexual Assault continues to represent the most rapidly growing violent crime in America . It is estimated that as few as 10 percent of sexual assaults are reported to the police. (American Medical Association 2000).
You mean statistics like this:
In the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit’s study of False Allegations conducted in 1983 of 556 rape investigations, a total of 220 (40%) of these reported rapes turned out to be false. Over one fourth of these 556 turned out to be hoaxes.
Charles P. McDowell et. al., "False Allegations", in Practical Rape Investigation, Behavioral Science Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA 1985.
Yes - search the internet and we can find any statistic we want. Unfortunately methods are generally hidden and definition of "rape" is varied. (Like this poor bastard: ) How many of these statistics are skewed in such ways?
I have no doubts that rape occurs in the United States (heck, I even believe Venus when she says she was raped.)
But what is being refuted dogmatically by some on this thread is that false accusations don't occur and that today's - today's - society has not given women an incredible amount of leverage to fuck over guys and has taken to bashing and stereotyping men as much as women were pre-feminism.
I have to say, that given Jenny's and Scarlett's snide remarks I am beginning to know the frustation early feminists faced from male critics. Everything from being stupid and having a small brain to fact denial to bringing up esoteric nonsense for sake of their argument - it all looks eerily similar to days of old.
evan_essence
12-16-2006, 03:55 PM
Hey, speaking of the relevance of studies to a particular rape case, studies show that 76 percent of rich Duke boys have lied in some fashion about their sexual activities. So you know, since that percentage is higher than the false rape claims, the defendants must be the ones who are full of sh*t. ::)
And that's the superior reasoning I've used to reach the conclusions I've formulated in this matter. ;)
-Ev
evan_essence
12-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Hahahaha. This "story" turned up on the Google News aggregate site among legitimate news stories without any contextual clue that it's a spoof in the same style as the Onion. Wonder if Fox News or some other clueless journalist will pick it up and run with it.
http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/248163264_33_whodunit.shtml
Edit: Okay, I amend what I said. The Google presentation did have a small notation beside the name of the source indicating that the story was "satire," but that was easy to miss, given that the headline was packaged alongside a real news picture from another source.
-Ev
Tara Nicole
12-16-2006, 04:45 PM
You mean statistics like this:
In the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit’s study of False Allegations conducted in 1983 of 556 rape investigations, a total of 220 (40%) of these reported rapes turned out to be false. Over one fourth of these 556 turned out to be hoaxes.
Charles P. McDowell et. al., "False Allegations", in Practical Rape Investigation, Behavioral Science Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA 1985.
You don't think that could have been cherry picked cases to support a male dominance perspective? Gee, I wonder how many of those so called false claims ended up being reported as such because the women were pressured, intimidated or just wanted to move on with their lives? Based on more than my fair share of experiences, knowledge and study I'd say quite a few.... And only 556 rapes for the entire country for an entire year- come on ::) get real !
The current FBI stats of false rape accusations ( not just one man's report from 20 years ago but those currently approved by the FBI as a whole) as reported by the CDC are 9% not 40%.
Also it is widely accepted by numerous agencies such as the American Medical Association and the DOJ that most rapes go unreported to police- that means that even 9% is a very generous estimate of false claims.
Do false claims happen? Yes -but as I have explained with proof- IT IS EXTREEMLY RARE. Is it an awful thing to do? Yes!!!!
But you tell me Deogol- what is more common? A women being raped by a man or a man being falsely accused? Even by your own flawed evidence it is more common for a woman to be the victim of rape than it is for a man to be the victim of a false claim... so for goodness sake stop with this whole women are evil liars thing. We are not all liars just like not all men are rapists.
Please stop judging the masses of any group by the actions of a few. You do it with Muslims, women, Latinos etc etc.
There are good and bad apples in any bunch- that's life!
scarlett_vancouver
12-16-2006, 05:13 PM
given Jenny's and Scarlett's snide remarks
Showing support for Jenny's arguments is a snide remark? Really?
Sitri
12-17-2006, 07:25 AM
Wow, I missed out a lot on this thread. It's more like a tangled ball of twine.
Taking the obvious sweeping generalizations out of the thread, I thought it was specifically talking about the Duke case and the continuous lack of evidence and in fact the evidence that point to the "without a reasonable doubt" about this particular woman making this specific accusation about all of these Duke Lacrosse Players.
I think we can all agree that men can be liars and (hold your breath) women also. The question is "Who is most likely the liar in this situation?".
Based on what I have heard, its the woman. Nothing so far supports any of her accusations that I can see.
Who cares about the sweeping generalizations and statistics relative to this thread. If you apply those, it appears that every man is AUTOMATICALLY GUILTY of rape and every woman has been raped.
I hope that isn't true. It is a specific individual situation and must be decided in every case. This one just looks suspiciously like a Prosecuters play to get press.
Jo Weldon
12-17-2006, 10:30 AM
I hate it when people say it's the woman's fault for not acting like rape was imminent, too. And from that jerk's perspective, if men don't want to get accused, and women are liable for accusing them because they got drunk and had buyer's remorse or ended up with men of low character, maybe the corresponding self-protective measure for men to take in this misandrist world would be to not have sex with drunk women. Or at all.
I love it that he says that women are brainwashed to think that rape allegations are likely to be true, then says that rape is so likely to happen that women need to very carefully watch where they drink. (Like they could KNOW the character of every man in the room, anyway.) "There's not so much rape as this man-hating society leads you to think, but you need to be careful about who you drink with because rape is right around the corner." Sure, that's logical.
Well see. Men shouldn't criminally liable for rape because women shouldn't drink around men of low character. In fact, maybe we should start prosecuting women who get raped. It's likely their own fault, and they've gone and traumatized some guy who is now branded as a rapist because of their own poor judgement and their need to have a couple of drinks. Women ought to have some kind of liability to the men that rape them for putting them in that position. Or that is my opinion. There are all sorts of men in prison for rape that NEVER would have been able to rape a woman if women were kept locked in their homes and weren't free to walk the streets. It's a terrible tragedy. Paul Bernardo would never have been able kidnap and sexually assault and kill Kirsten French if her parents hadn't let her walk to school. And now where is he? Prison. Because her parents were all "Our teenage daughter can leave the house unaccompanied by a man." He really ought to have some remedy for that.
Oh, honey. Jenny's comment was only addressing the fact that nobody actually suffered during these terrible ordeals (except the women in question). There was no money that changed hands, nobody went broke, nobody had to make payments, nobody was arrested, let alone charged and convicted. There are MANY women on this site who have had ACTUAL bad things happen to them (as opposed to administrative inconvenience) at the hands of men.
I might point out that sympathy might be more forthcoming if these relatively minor experiences weren't being blown up into an excuse to despise all women and minimize all rape complaints. But you know - that's all rational and stuff, so you probably wouldn't be interested.
forcefit
12-17-2006, 11:31 AM
Yes. Like blogs.
If we have been granted no safe spaces to be free, then we must create our own, one free woman at a time, until one by one, little by little, those spaces begin to connect, grow, crowd out, trample upon, overtake and -- dare I say it? -- devour the patriarchal deathspaces that threaten us now.Right, because a blog that simply quotes from other sources is somehow less reliable than those sources themselves? :O
Speaking of, this entry (http://byrdeye.blogspot.com/2006/12/why-men-kick-womens-azzes.html) does nicely debunk your grossly misandrist sig. Truthfully, one must admit that Men are indeed not "oppressors" of women, but life support systems for them!!!
Anyhow, how can the FBI's 9% be accurate when it's own study (cited by Deogol) proved dramatically otherwise - in line with every other independent study?
The REAL picture that consistently emerges from various first-hand studies time and again verifies the amount of false rape reports being around 1/4-1/3 or more...
As a former member of the "USAF CID", more accurately known as the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI), I can attest to that paper that disclosed that "one-third" of our rape accusations were false. And, yes, the bar was set pretty high in that "withdrawal" of the accusation was the standard.
Based on my personal experience I would say that the number of false accusations is much higher than 2% - more in the 20% to 30% range.
Like “Dave” I was a criminal investigator for 24 years in the AFOSI and worked many rape investigations from murder rape, (thankfully, only one) to "date rapes" (more common than most people would believe)
Per policy every allegation of rape was thoroughly investigated and most were eventually resolved.
During the course of that career I took numerous allegations of rape that were later disproved; 20 – 30% sounds pretty accurate (http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/crimprof_blog/2004/12/2_false_rape_st.html).
In general I became suspicious of a rape allegation that solved more problems than it created.
For example, the allegation “solved” an unexpected pregnancy or “explained” a venereal disease or a hickey or provided an excuse to be gone unexpectedly for a weekend.Not to mention via the FBI's own DNA testing:
"Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive, about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or included the primary suspect."
The authors continued, "these percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and the National Institute of Justice's informal survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly similar 26 percent exclusion rate (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html)."POP QUIZ - Who lies more: women or DNA? ;D
Obviously, somehow false allegation recants and unfounded reports are slipping through the cracks here... So, why might police stations underreport false rapes to the FBI?
Across the nation, public universities are spending millions of dollars a year on rapidly growing programs to combat rape (http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html). Videos, self-defense classes, and full-time rape educators are commonplace. . . . But the new spending comes at a time when community rape programs-also dependent on tax dollars-are desperately scrambling for money to help populations at much higher risk than college students.More "true" rape charges = more funding. More false charges = less funding. Rape is a huge cash cow for feminists, communities, police stations and women alike. Just do the math. Again, it's just like how terorists are Dubya's best friend in politics.
Deogol - the kneejerk immature responses and namecalling here by women remind me of trying to take a toy away from a child whom it doesn't belong to. They don't care about what's just...but simply the fact that they are losing a toy...
Classic'sMontana
12-17-2006, 05:59 PM
^^snorts laughter^^
Opps.. you must have mistaken that some of us just don't care.... hate men? not exactly... hate men like you i.e. know it all, over opinionated men who spent waaaaaay tooo much time in debate in the pursuit of superiority and much less time enjoying life. Get laid. Get a life... Get off the internet for the love of GOD. I don't care in what order
...It is lame to fight and try to force your "facts" on people who don't give a shit....
ALSO you sound like you are seriously unhinged......
enjoy your night everybody else.....I am done feeding the troll....
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/becauseallmyfriendsjumped/sucks3.jpg
Jenny
12-17-2006, 06:24 PM
Right, because a blog that simply quotes from other sources is somehow less reliable than those sources themselves? :O
No, but there are questions when you are led from a blog to another blog to an uncredible misogynist website... instead of the nice, simple direct DOJ that TN gave us. This, in case you are wondering, has nothing to do with male/female relations. Just a reliable and good way of presenting reliable and good sources. Like, if you actually want to make a compelling argument why not quote from reliable sources directly rather than linking us to other unreliable sources in the hope that we might eventually hit on something reliable?
Speaking of, this entry (http://byrdeye.blogspot.com/2006/12/why-men-kick-womens-azzes.html) does nicely debunk your grossly misandrist sig. Truthfully, one must admit that Men are indeed not "oppressors" of women, but life support systems for them!!!
Oh honey. Don't worry. I didn't expect you to be able to recognize my sig quote. As I told Deogol - if I ever meet you I'll be happy to teach you to use a knife and fork as well.
I hate it when people say it's the woman's fault for not acting like rape was imminent, too. And from that jerk's perspective, if men don't want to get accused, and women are liable for accusing them because they got drunk and had buyer's remorse or ended up with men of low character, maybe the corresponding self-protective measure for men to take in this misandrist world would be to not have sex with drunk women. Or at all.
Interestingly, when you have allegations of "grey zone" sex, or the necessity (either ethical or legal) to ensure capability of consent before sex, you get this huge uproar. Like "how can you know?" My answer is (very legally unsatisfactory) but "if you have to ask... she can't consent. Just wait until the next day." Why do guys find this (again very legally unsatisfactory) so difficult and onerous? Because, in a nutshell, in the endless search for an accommodating (or at least docile) vagina they think it is HORRIBLY unfair that they have to give up the chance at sex that MAY BE fully consensual; it is, essentially, a utilitarian approach (with a healthy dose of female stereotype mixed in - the "if she didn't want it she shouldn't have drank so much" school of thought); that they believe that the CHANCE that they COULD BE having fully consensual sex is worth the CHANCE that they are not. Sort of twisted, in my opinion.
Tara Nicole
12-17-2006, 08:35 PM
I think I know what the deal is with this Forcefit dude... it's not about the rare false claim of rape .... he is just unhappy with the fact that women have a legal right to NOT consent to sex.
Bridgette
12-18-2006, 04:28 AM
I wonder how many "fasle" rape reports were merely recanted because the women were too afraid to continue with the case. Because that is exactly what happened to me as a kid.
I was badgered, threatened, accused, berated, grilled and yes, physically beaten, until I was so afraid of having to take the witness stand that I LIED to say that the fucking piece of shit didn't do anything to me. So the motherfucker got off scott free, and *I* was made to look like the asshole for "falsely" accusing him. Because of that, I'm inclined to believe I'm NOT the only one and that probably aLOT of cases where the woman winds up recanting her story were like mine.
You boys who want to judge others' situations and an entire sex/society based on 1-2 relatively MINOR incidents that happened to you personally - try thinking about the other side of that coin ::)
Never mind the fact the places where yall are getting your "facts" are not exactly the most credible.
lunchbox
12-18-2006, 03:07 PM
Yes. Like blogs. And columns by Blatchford. What is TL's links to the Department of Justice compared that that.
Yes, honey, I am mocking you instead of engaging with your argument or "evidence". I realize that. I think it is fairly clear that it is because your arguments and "evidence" is incredibly, incredibly dumb, and you haven't really posted anything even remotely credible. That is what makes you mock worthy. So by all means. Post more.
I hate to question TL's credibility and far be I from me to take a side, but what DOJ links?
Then she questions someone else's published refrences? http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=913943&postcount=81
You're better than that.
Jenny
12-18-2006, 03:09 PM
Gosh, you're right. She didn't link. She just referred. I don't if that materially changes my point, which is that DOJ = reliable source and some guys blog = not reliable source.
lunchbox
12-18-2006, 03:10 PM
You boys who want to judge others' situations and an entire sex/society based on 1-2 relatively MINOR incidents that happened to you personally - try thinking about the other side of that coin ::)
Never mind the fact the places where yall are getting your "facts" are not exactly the most credible.
I hope that yall is directed at everyone, and not the "you boys".
lunchbox
12-18-2006, 03:21 PM
Gosh, you're right. She didn't link. She just referred. I don't if that materially changes my point, which is that DOJ = reliable source and some guys blog = not reliable source.
Putting a stranger on a message board who agrees with you're opinion ahead of being cynical... You should be ashamed.
DOJ = reliable source, only when it's been actually been sourced.
Jenny
12-18-2006, 03:28 PM
Dude - if you want the citation, ask her for it. You're right - I'm not ragging on her for not including the full citation. It doesn't make the DOJ less credible - you are just implying that she is making it up?, and I don't think she is. Note - I don't think poor little Deogol is making up seeing the things on his little blogs and website. I'm just saying that seeing things on blogs and websites is not a good place to get a wide ambit of information. So I think I'm actually extending all parties the same courtesy, and only making evaluations about their sources, not whether or not they are lying about their use of sources.
lunchbox
12-18-2006, 03:48 PM
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cv02.pdf <<< DOJ published 2003
Page 11, 53.7% of Rape/Sexual abuse was reported in 2002, I'm not sure where the CDC got 39%.
What's the relevance? I don't care. I just like to question information.
DJ Maimed
12-18-2006, 04:09 PM
How should "we boys" judge this experience??; .Is this "equal opportunity" or "affirmative action"????
Lysondra
12-18-2006, 04:17 PM
I wonder how many "fasle" rape reports were merely recanted because the women were too afraid to continue with the case. Because that is exactly what happened to me as a kid.
I was badgered, threatened, accused, berated, grilled and yes, physically beaten, until I was so afraid of having to take the witness stand that I LIED to say that the fucking piece of shit didn't do anything to me. So the motherfucker got off scott free, and *I* was made to look like the asshole for "falsely" accusing him. Because of that, I'm inclined to believe I'm NOT the only one and that probably aLOT of cases where the woman winds up recanting her story were like mine.
You boys who want to judge others' situations and an entire sex/society based on 1-2 relatively MINOR incidents that happened to you personally - try thinking about the other side of that coin ::)
Never mind the fact the places where yall are getting your "facts" are not exactly the most credible.
Same exact thing happened to me when I reported my mum's fiancé molesting me. :( *hugs* even though you probably don't want 'em from me. :P
Tara Nicole
12-18-2006, 04:57 PM
I hate to question TL's credibility and far be I from me to take a side, but what DOJ links?
Actually I linked the CDC which had DOJ info included.
here is the link again
Most people consider the CDC to be pretty damn realible source of info.
Bridgette
12-18-2006, 05:08 PM
How should "we boys" judge this experience??; .Is this "equal opportunity" or "affirmative action"????What's your point? It's still a MAN committing the violence. Do you think it's worse since he's raping men?? I don't.
Tara Nicole
12-18-2006, 05:16 PM
^ me neither
also people might like to note that in several of the links various male members have posted it references rape reports where the primary suspect was cleared by dna however it does NOT say that every one of the these rapes did not occur at all.
If a woman did not know her attacker or if she was drugged or otherwise unable to give a good description OR a primary suspect was chosen by police due to past record or other means it does not constitute a false claim even if a primary suspect is cleared.
Also lack of DNA doesn't always mean a suspect is innocent OR guilty it just means it can't be proven by DNA.
What gets my goat the most about things posted by some of the men here is that most of us woman have said that while rare false claims do happen- most of the men bitching about these rare claims act as if they make up the majority of rape reports which even by their own flawed source info is not reality.
They appear to choose to believe that all rape suspects are victims of false reports. That is FUCKED UP ON SO MANY LEVELS!!!!
When the facts of this type of crime (by both we women's sources and most of the men's as well) show that most reports of rape are honest reports and yet they choose to blame the rape victims OVER & OVER. It shows a tremendous amount about their character ( or lack thereof) as humanbeings.
We women acknowledge that false claims, though rare, do occur and that it is a terrible thing to do .... yet several of the men are unable to show one ounce of understanding or sympathy for ANY female rape victim.
And then they have the audacity to wonder why so many women hate their type of man..... Thankgod those fucktards are the minority of men- at least in my opinion anyway.