View Full Version : Saddam Debate
JustJayda
01-01-2007, 01:19 PM
They should have never killed Saddam. James Brown is just unfortunate. I miss the God Father of Hip-Hop (Soul) all ready. Gerald Ford lasted forever.
:spit: :spit: :spit: :loco: :loco:
242_fair
01-01-2007, 08:32 PM
I talked to some people at the cafe, here is what they responded to you:
(Dont bother arguing back, these are not my opinions/ questions)
1) Who gave the Iraqis permission to execute him? The puppet governmnet installed by USA.
2) For example. if you want to kill someone, and you used a hired killer, aren't your hands bloody from the murder? Or just the man who was the assasin?
3) Who was really running the court where he was sentenced.
Nor did I say YOU said he was killed by Americans. I'm questioning the Anti American sentiments over this when all we did was hand him over to his own government.
TheSexKitten
01-02-2007, 03:49 AM
Wow, comparing Bush to Hitler or Stalin is... well, wrong. Absolutely ridiculous.
Sirona
01-02-2007, 05:02 AM
I talked to some people at the cafe, here is what they responded to you:
(Dont bother arguing back, these are not my opinions/ questions)
1) Who gave the Iraqis permission to execute him? The puppet governmnet installed by USA.
2) For example. if you want to kill someone, and you used a hired killer, aren't your hands bloody from the murder? Or just the man who was the assasin?
3) Who was really running the court where he was sentenced.
Wow, so the Iraqis are mindless drones with no power of independant thought?
DylanAngel
01-02-2007, 05:48 AM
I talked to some people at the cafe, here is what they responded to you:
(Dont bother arguing back, these are not my opinions/ questions)
1) Who gave the Iraqis permission to execute him? The puppet governmnet installed by USA.
2) For example. if you want to kill someone, and you used a hired killer, aren't your hands bloody from the murder? Or just the man who was the assasin?
3) Who was really running the court where he was sentenced.
Wow, sounds like you've been there too long. TELLING me not to argue back? Last I checked, I was posting from a country where I'm free to ask questions, have an opinion and write about it as well; just as you have.
I didn't think I was arguing at all...I am trying to understand why they think the way they do and you have first hand knowledge.
And I have to agree with Sirona on this one. Definitely sounds like a bunch of brainwashed people.
I have my own opinions about our being there and, in respect to my cousin, who risked his life over there, I keep my objections to a minimum. But, to believe such outright fallacies is just ludicrous.
He committed many attoricties and these were well documented. I don't have to argue them...let them ask their own people. There had to be a reason that all of those people were dancing...or maybe they just had a great song in their head?
sophiemarie
01-02-2007, 09:21 AM
Killing Saddam is going to come down hard in a bad way on the US. It should have never happened and to put the killing on TV is just crazy to me.
They should have kept him alive and done more psychological evaluations on him. Just like they should have never killed Ted Bundy.
Sirona
01-02-2007, 11:41 AM
Killing Saddam is going to come down hard in a bad way on the US. It should have never happened and to put the killing on TV is just crazy to me.
They should have kept him alive and done more psychological evaluations on him. Just like they should have never killed Ted Bundy.
First off I love how it's all on the US when we weren't even the ones who tried, convicted and executed him.
Secondly, he wasn't a fucking science experiment. He was a powerhungry freakshow of a scumbag excuse for a human being. Psych evaluations? Um why? Study it... Jesus on a surfboard...
Sirona
01-02-2007, 11:42 AM
And I have to agree with Sirona on this one. Definitely sounds like a bunch of brainwashed people.
I was actually being sarcastic. :)
DylanAngel
01-02-2007, 12:04 PM
I was actually being sarcastic. :)
I thought I read sarcasm in your post originally but when I reread 242's post, and if what she says is true, then it would actually seem that your post would be spot on.
The people she's talking to would be drones if they believe that drivel as it's not based in fact.
Sirona
01-02-2007, 12:39 PM
I guess i'm just disturbed by the fact that some folks think they executed the guy because "we" somehow control them and made them do it instead of maybe
they were sick of his shit and tired of his fucking up thier country and lives and thought he was guilty of all sort of heinous shit...
Fucking boggles the mind.
smartcookie
01-02-2007, 01:00 PM
"We" didn't kill Saddam; but "we" did set the stage for him to be killed.
If there are Sunni Muslims blind enough to believe that Saddam is a martyr (and there are millions) - that suddenly, on the gallows, he gave a shit about Allah, Palestine, and Muslim brotherhood, when he never had while he was living- well, that sort of underlines the sickness and backwardness that defines the existence of much of the Muslim world today.
I have no doubt that the U.S. in its typically shortsighted fashion has shot itself in the foot, at the cost of many human lives and billions of dollars. What I see happening is Iran becoming even more powerful, and possibly the birth of an Iranian-Shi'ite superstate, which will make Saudi Arabia shit in its pants and have the Salafist/Wahabbist fundamentalists calling for an internal jihad.
A Shi'ite - Sunni conflagration will send oil prices through the roof, which is bad for the rest of the world, but part of me welcomes it. Let everyone see what a farce this religion has become and what a Third Caliphate would really look like. Let them kill each other - they'll do the dirty work for us, so that we don't have to. Maybe only this kind of bloodletting will be what it takes for Islam to evolve, and for the United States to wean itself off of oil dependence.
242_fair
01-02-2007, 01:03 PM
I told you dont bother to argue back because I can't convey anything because they were just some dudes I talked to in the cafe... and prob I will never see them again.
It wasn't about censorship, get a grip.
Wow, sounds like you've been there too long. TELLING me not to argue back? Last I checked, I was posting from a country where ...
DylanAngel
01-02-2007, 01:44 PM
I told you dont bother to argue back because I can't convey anything because they were just some dudes I talked to in the cafe... and prob I will never see them again.
It wasn't about censorship, get a grip.
I didn't say anything about censorship either.
Had you explained it in the way you did above, it might have clarified things instead of saying "don't bother". It sounded snarky. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
And thank you for relaying these sentiments to us. It's one thing to get these things from the media and quite another to have them coming straight from the horse's mouth, albeit through you, which, I do trust to be accurate.
leilanicandy
01-02-2007, 07:39 PM
Given this video
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=1585233&ch=61492&src=news
I believe we got are self into something we had no business doing, I guess we would never know the whole story.
Dottie Rebel
01-03-2007, 03:16 AM
I believe we got are self into something we had no business doing, I guess we would never know the whole story.
It was definitely not our business. The sentiments of 242_fair's cafe acquaintances are mine exactly. I ask those same questions.
Say what you want about Saddam--was he a bad guy? Probably. But he was the leader of a sovereign nation. Can someone scamper over here and kill Bush just because they don't like what he's doing and don't approve of all the killings he has ordered? Of course not.
The U.S. feels sees fit to support cruel and ruthless dictatorships worldwide (Duvaliers of Haiti, Batista of Cuba--SADDAM back in the 80s when he was our good buddy fighting Iran!) and has no problem assassinating DEMOCRATICALLY-elected leaders (Salvador Allende of Chile, for example). We do not care whether a leader is representing the people or treating them fairly as long as they are willing to play ball! There's this great mythology that the U.S. takes some sort of noble, altruistic role in the soothing of the world's suffering masses. We let the Jews suffer and die during the Holocaust with full knowledge of their plight. We're doing the same thing now with Darfur. Why the hell aren't we in Darfur???? Because it is not in our direct interest to do so. Period. So eff them. Better luck next time, Sudanese children. You don't have anything we want.
And you think the government in Iraq represents the people there? Ha! Have you been paying attention to their political process--who has control and how they've gained it? Democracy my skinny white ass!!
I truly think we're witnessing the beginning of the end of our civilization. This country has been playing big kid on the block and peddling it's imperialism for far too long. I think we're going to be doing a LOT of reaping of what we've sown in the coming years.
Sirona
01-03-2007, 05:51 AM
Say what you want about Saddam--was he a bad guy? Probably.
Probably? Probably. Wow.
Lets look at SOME of the evil crap this dude has been involved in first hand:
Fall of 1968 beginning of purges to remove all non-Ba'thists from posts within state institutions. Saddam engages in purifying the government and society of potential dissidents. The higher echelons of the military and the government deemed disloyal are sent into retirement, imprisoned, tortured, or executed. Members of non-Ba'th political parties and non-Arabs are accused of crimes and executed or deported.
August 8, 1969 Kurdish village of Dakan in Mosul governorate is site of a massacre performed by the army.
October 1969 Abd al-Rahman al-Bazzaz, former prime minister, is imprisoned on charges of being a Zionist agent. Tortured and sentenced to 15 years imprisonment.
March 1970 Hundreds of Communists are arrested and tortured.
1974-1975 War against the Kurds ignites again. Phosphorous shells are reportedly used against the Kurds.
March 1974 The Kurdish towns of Zakho and Qala'at Diza are razed to the ground. 8,000 Kurds disappear from the village of Barzan.
February 1977 Beginning of mass deportations to Iran of Iraqi Shi'a, confiscation of their property and "disappearance" of sons. Estimated that by early 80's, 200,000 Iraqis are deported to Iran and stripped of nationality and property.
July 15-August 8, 1979 In order to consolidate his power, Saddam embarks on a purge, reminiscent of Stalin, in which party members are accused of being involved in a Syrian plot to place Iraq under Syrian hegemony and remove Iraq's leadership. By the end of the purge, hundreds of top ranking Ba'thists and army officers are executed, including five members of the RCC.
1987-1988 Saddam launches the Anfal campaign against the Kurds, in which some 180,000 "disappear." 4,000 villages are razed. Depopulation of large areas of eastern Kurdistan.
March 1988 The Kurdish town of Halabja is gassed. 5,000 people perish, 10,000 suffer injuries.
August 1988 A number of Kurdish villages on Turkish borders are gassed. Thousands of casualties.
August 1988. Ceasefire declared between Iraq and Iran, ending the 8-year war. The war is estimated to have caused one million casualties including 250,000 Iraqi dead.
That's a small sampling, S-A-M-P-L-I-N-G, of the kind of fucked up shit this guy was involved in.
More interesting facts:
Kharaillah Tulfah, participant in the 1941 pro-Nazi coup and an advocate of a pan-Islamic Nazi alliance along with the Mufti, raised and educated his nephew Saddam Hussein from age 10. In 1959, the 22-year-old Saddam failed in an attempt to assassinate Iraqi leader Abdel Karim Qassim. He subsequently fled to Egypt where he received refuge from fellow Mufti disciple Nasser. At the time, Nasser, along with the Mufti himself, who resided in Cairo after the war and his conviction by the Nuremberg Tribunal of war crimes, was spearheading what was known as the Odessa Network, which facilitated the settlement of thousands of Nazi criminals in Egypt and elsewhere in the Arab world. In 1962, Saddam married Sajidah Tuffah, the daughter of his uncle and mentor.
Saddam became absolute ruler in 1979 after assassinating over 20 leaders of his own party. He immediately proceeded to implement the Nazi vision of his uncle and the Mufti. In Iraq, Saddam annihilated of his opponents and, using his absolute power, developed a personality-cult around himself reminiscent of the Nazi Furherprincip. Like the Nazis, who sought to implement a new social order based on socialist and nationalist principles, Saddam has sought to develop a united Arab order under his personal control. Imitating the example of Hitler, Saddam set up concentration camps and began to carry out a planned program of genocide against the Kurds.
This is a guy who would read "Mein Kampf" over loudspeakers in Baghdad between Muslim prayers ...
Yeah. You're right. He probably was a bad guy.
ps - Fuck him, i'm glad he's dead.
Dottie Rebel
01-03-2007, 12:30 PM
^^^I hate sarcasm, so I never use it. ::)
I do like how you take one tiny (funny) thing I said and make a huge deal out of it and then ignore all of my actual argument.
Kabukicho
01-03-2007, 12:42 PM
The U.S. feels sees fit to support cruel and ruthless dictatorships worldwide (Duvaliers of Haiti, Batista of Cuba--SADDAM back in the 80s when he was our good buddy fighting Iran!) and has no problem assassinating DEMOCRATICALLY-elected leaders (Salvador Allende of Chile, for example). We do not care whether a leader is representing the people or treating them fairly as long as they are willing to play ball! There's this great mythology that the U.S. takes some sort of noble, altruistic role in the soothing of the world's suffering masses. We let the Jews suffer and die during the Holocaust with full knowledge of their plight. We're doing the same thing now with Darfur. Why the hell aren't we in Darfur???? Because it is not in our direct interest to do so. Period. So eff them. Better luck next time, Sudanese children. You don't have anything we want.
:10: Exactly what she said.
smartcookie
01-03-2007, 12:49 PM
I agree with everything Dottie_Rebel said. The U.S. has always actively protected its interests (in a typically shortsighted fashion) and any humanitarian concerns have always been secondary or tertiary grounds for military action.
Sirona
01-03-2007, 04:30 PM
^^^I hate sarcasm, so I never use it. ::)
I do like how you take one tiny (funny) thing I said and make a huge deal out of it and then ignore all of my actual argument.
It wasn't a tiny thing to me and I didn't find it to be funny.
Here's a fact. Politics are all about siding with whoever you need at the moment. That's how it's ALWAYS been. I don't like it any better than the next person but when I sit here reading people talking shit about thier country and thier leader in some sort of warped attempt to explain why it's a sad awful thing that that douchebag Saddam was put to death it fucking fries me.
I mean look at what's being said. In one breath people are saying we need to mind our own business and leave other countries alone and then in the same breath will bitch that we aren't helping someone else (I believe Darfur was given as an example). You can't have it both ways.
Do I think the government in Iraq represents the people there? Fuck if I know, i've never been there. I do however have a hard time believing that the gov't currently in place is WORSE than a guy who thought it was ok to practice genocide and do stuff like combo gas his own country (that's right folks, he was using a lovely combo of sarin, ricin and mustard gas).
All I can really say is if you are so against how the country is run, do something about it. Vote for the right people, hell vote at all. Run for office. Fuck it, move someone else you like better.
Sitting around talking shit about the country you live in, the one that lets you have the freedom to do the things you enjoy is so detrimental. You're undermining yourselves, rotting it out from the middle.
Dottie Rebel
01-03-2007, 04:54 PM
All I can really say is if you are so against how the country is run, do something about it. Vote for the right people, hell vote at all. Run for office. Fuck it, move someone else you like better.
I do vote. But since I am not in a position of power myself or aspiring to run for office, I'm not allowed to have opinions about the way my government is run?
Sitting around talking shit about the country you live in, the one that lets you have the freedom to do the things you enjoy is so detrimental. You're undermining yourselves, rotting it out from the middle.
Ah, freedom. You know...
"Freedom isn't free. No, there's a hefty fuckin' fee. And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five, who will? America, FUCK YEAH! So lick my butt, and suck on my balls!"
Sirona
01-03-2007, 06:27 PM
What can I say, i'm an opinionated pain in the ass. :)
Dottie Rebel
01-03-2007, 11:47 PM
Haha...me too ;)
sophiemarie
02-03-2007, 05:37 PM
He should have never been killed because it will start more war. More young people will die over "oil".
This entire war is over Bush and the Bin Laden family getting into oil disputes. bush and Bin Laden fam have been at it for years, which is why the towers went down when Bush 2 was only 9 months into his first (cheated) term of office.
Do the math.
Calculate the odds.
Deogol
02-04-2007, 11:46 AM
Saddam dying has nothing to do with more or less war over there.
We are talking about a culture that has for centuries accepted violence as a means of problem resolution.
You're wife cheated on you? Stone the bitch - if you get tired the neighbors will help! Some fucker took your shit? Cut off his hand. Don't like a porn shop in the neighborhood? Burn the fucker down. Your sister had sex with the neighbor? Rape his daughter. Want a job? Pay off the local sheik.
I wish more Americans would travel to Arabia just to learn how futile anything to be done is until they decide to get their own shit together.
People are NOT the same all over. People do NOT have the same values as Americans do. Trying to solve the problems in the American fashion won't work. (Aka democracy has only led to terrorist groups being voted into power - so much for the average Arab being moderate.)
Here's a clue - some bible thumper quotes scripture to your ass about being a sinner and it's merely annoying. The local shop keeper quotes the Qu'ran and the police haul your ass away. So many armchair diplomats on this site are incredibly ignorant of how different it is over there.
This whole idea of America and George Bush as the cause of turmoil in the middle east is bullshit.
The best thing we can do is become less reliant on a region filled with insane crazy buggers by alternative energies and better use of the energy we have. Some day we are going to learn we can't have the gas guzzling SUV without the terrorism.
Deogol
02-04-2007, 12:27 PM
He should have never been killed because it will start more war. More young people will die over "oil".
This entire war is over Bush and the Bin Laden family getting into oil disputes. bush and Bin Laden fam have been at it for years, which is why the towers went down when Bush 2 was only 9 months into his first (cheated) term of office.
Do the math.
Calculate the odds.
Typical western thought.
If we are the problem - then we are the solution! My leaders can meddle over there better than the other side's can!
After all, the world revolves around us.
Or maybe the local Shiite finally get's to gut the Sunni who screwed him over ten years ago.
Yekhefah
02-04-2007, 12:31 PM
^^^ Deogol, we actually agree on this one. Trying to bring democracy to the Arab world is like trying to put a dog through university. It's simply not possible; the dog doesn't need or want the education, and wouldn't know what to do with it even if he could get it.
Dottie Rebel
02-04-2007, 12:54 PM
^^That's an interesting analogy. So,you're saying that democracy is more sophisticated than simple Arabs can grasp?
Yekhefah
02-04-2007, 12:58 PM
No, I'm saying that it's completely antithetical to their culture and worldview. Maybe the analogy was bad, but the point was just that no matter how hard we might try to make that part of the world democratic, it's just not going to happen because they don't want it and can't use it.
Dottie Rebel
02-04-2007, 02:32 PM
no matter how hard we might try to make that part of the world democratic, it's just not going to happen because they don't want it and can't use it.
I'm willing to go for that. I'm am certainly no fan of U.S.-style selective imperialism. We leave plenty of ruthless dictators to their business and decide that others should adopt our exact style of government when they've operated under an entirely different model for, oh, all of recorded history. Yeah, I'm with you there.
Paris
02-04-2007, 02:41 PM
for the record, wasnt it NOT the US that executed saddam? I mean if iraq wants to hang him, then hang him... they could have done a lot worse to him, IMO..
The US had very little to do with the Saddam trial and the resulting punishment, asside from invading the nation and capturing Saddam, we turned him over to his political enemies to be tried and punished.
It was shi'ite soldiers that did the actual "hanging". They were Saddam's political enemies while he was president of Iraq. That would be like letting Moveon.org decide if George W. Bush should be Impeached.
I'm wondering where's Sophiemarie is with her reasoning, or is she just trying to start a debate?
Paris
02-04-2007, 02:47 PM
People can remain in control behind bars, i.e. gang bosses, etc. I'm very aware of that. In Saddam's specific case, it's clearly not the situation. Almost every analysis you read will tell you that he was at this point powerless, and his execution is more of a symbolic one, not because there was ANY fear of him gaining power and control again.
Yes, but that would require hours of dull research on the part of the average American. I have been trying to get my friends and family to acknowledge some of the realities of the Iraq war, Global warming, Political manipulation and other information, but everyone just shoves their head in the sand and refuses to do the research necessary to find the TRUTH.
It is just easier to be spoon fed your opinion by the loud and famous commentators on the air. Who cares if it is correct or not.:'(
Paris
02-04-2007, 03:01 PM
If you were really going to make this claim, then you would have to agree that Roosevelt, Johnson, Nixon, and any other president during wartime, has committed crimes.
Um, it was a alleged that Nixon DID commit crimes. There were grumblings that Johnson also was a conspirator to get the US involved in WW2, as well.
But I perfer facts and all that cloak and dagger stuff is good for entertainment, but that is about it.
History may yet show that Bush screwed up, or was grossly ignorant about what is really going on. Trust no one and questions athuority. Facts are facts, and if facts are suppressed or destroyed, then we can never know for sure.
Paris
02-04-2007, 03:08 PM
Wow, so the Iraqis are mindless drones with no power of independant thought?
Living under dictatorship rule for generations will do that to an entire nation of people. Russia is a great example of this. They are starting show some back bone to question the government now, but the Russian people have been traveling a long road to get to that point.
No one wants to stick out their neck if they fear doing so will get their head chopped off.