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DylanAngel
01-07-2007, 07:40 AM
so let me be sure that I understand this ... after the new minimum wage went into effect, you are now expected to do MORE work for the same $8 an hour (or whatever) pay rate due to the permanent elimination of some previous minimum wage positions - which the employer now forces you and other remaining workers to pick up as extra work for yourselves ?

Looks like you hit it on the head yet again Melonie.

God forbid these companies would start by downsizing some of the overbloated salaries that top brass receives. Or better yet, cut into some of the *gasp* profits to reward hard workers and keep their morales high.

Vamp
01-07-2007, 08:11 AM
Looks like you hit it on the head yet again Melonie.

God forbid these companies would start by downsizing some of the overbloated salaries that top brass receives. Or better yet, cut into some of the *gasp* profits to reward hard workers and keep their morales high.

That is the reason why there is a minium wage. Just imagine what wages would be if it was left up to them.

Vamp
01-07-2007, 08:30 AM
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2005tbls.htm

I am not one to just rely on someone else's comentary of an issue. So I went to U.S. Department of Labors website for stats.

If you look at these stats it shows the majority of min wage works are actually over the age of 25, white, evenly divided between men and women, and the majority also work these jobs full time.

It breaks down what industries they fall into as well in a chart lower on the page. The largest number of employees recieving min wage is in the sales and office occupations, then service occupations ( which not only includes fast food but also healthcare support positions, protective service occupations, building and grounds maintenance, and personal care and service) and the third largest Production, transportation, and material moving occupations.

It also breaks down min wage works by education level. 14% of min wage workers have college degrees. 48% are married, 64.4% of them work 40 hours or more.

Take a look at the chart, read the numbers how you will, it shows a real look a min wage workers.

Melonie
01-07-2007, 08:39 AM
^^^ well in this specific case, she was getting paid $8 an hour before the minimum wage increase, and she's STILL getting paid $8 an hour after the minimum wage increase - plus being expected to produce about 25% more work to cover the work formerly done by minimum wage workers who were permanently axed.

Bottom line here is, as others have posted, employers will pay what they 'have to pay' in order to get work done that has to be done. When gov't issues a mandate that the least productive, least loyal workers must be given a pay raise, this only transfers an employer's labor budget from better employees to worse employees ! When the cumulative effects of those gov't mandates causes the employer's US labor costs to increase to the point where upper management and investors can't get a satisfactory return on their investment, it provides a strong incentive to shut down US operations altogether, or to 'consolidate' workloads in US service industries that can't be outsourced (i.e. forcing fewer employees to perform more work in exchange for the same rate of pay), or to outsource those US goods and services that can be performed outside of the gov'ts jurisdiction with VASTLY lower labor and other costs.

In other words, raising the minimum wage only helps those US workers who still will have a US minimum wage job after the business closings eliminate minimum wage jobs across the board, after the 'consolidations' eliminate some percentage of US minimum wage jobs, after automation eliminates some additional percentage of US minimum wage jobs, and after outsourcing eliminates still more US minimum wage jobs. Those former US minimum wage workers who are now unemployed are getting paid zero by private sector US employers. So the cruel truth is that for every three minimum wage workers who were earning $5.15 an hour before the increase, there will probably now be two minimum wage workers earning $6.75 after the increase, with the third collecting gov't benefits ! It will be very interesting to see next year's BLS employment figures to see how many of those over 25 white minimum wage workers have become permanently unemployed ! Also, for the sake of accuracy, it should be pointed out that the BLS lists 'tipped' minimum wage employees in their totals (i.e. employee dancers, waitstaff, commissioned salespersons etc.), such that many of those over 25 full time 'minimum wage' workers listed in the BLS data are in fact earning far more than $5.15 an hour if the actual 'non-paycheck' portion of their incomes were properly accounted for !!!

Raising the minimum wage creates additional costs without creating additional 'value'. As a result, SOMEBODY must pick up the tab for that extra cost without additional 'value'. Depending on specific circumstances, that extra cost could be transferred to customers having to pay higher prices, that extra cost could be transferred to other 'near minimum wage' workers who are expected to work harder in exchange for the same pay, that extra cost could be transferred to company stockholders in the form of reduced business profits i.e. lower return on investment, that extra cost could be transferred to US taxpayers in the form of unemployment and social welfare benefits for newly canned former minimum wage employees. In the worst case that cost is simply 'refused' as the employer decides to either go out of business or to move that business outside of the gov't jurisdiction via outsourcing / relocation thus eliminating both US minimum wage jobs and higher paying US jobs as well.

Vamp
01-07-2007, 09:02 AM
The last time the min wage was raised was 1997. http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm
this chart from the Us Department of Labor shows a decrease in unemployment after the min wage was increased.

Anyone that works an hourly job runs into that situation with or without a min wage increase. They don't give current employees raises. They pass the savings on to new employees. For some companies it is the only way they can attract new employees. If they keep horrible employees on their payrolls, either the company is lousy to work for or they dont care about their service. The issue here is how these companies are running their business and not the min wage.

DylanAngel
01-07-2007, 09:55 AM
That is the reason why there is a minium wage. Just imagine what wages would be if it was left up to them.


I don't even want to think about it. It's freaking horrible.

hardkandee
01-07-2007, 11:11 AM
so let me be sure that I understand this ... after the new minimum wage went into effect, you are now expected to do MORE work for the same $8 an hour (or whatever) pay rate due to the permanent elimination of some previous minimum wage positions - which the employer now forces you and other remaining workers to pick up as extra work for yourselves ?

Basically.

(Thankfully, I'm family and it won't affect me much. And I work with people who min. wage was designed for (unskilled workers that will never move up the ladder) who drive me absolutely crazy.)

Melonie
01-07-2007, 11:40 AM
The last time the min wage was raised was 1997.
this chart from the Us Department of Labor shows a decrease in unemployment after the min wage was increased.

true on the surface, but this was also the period of explosive growth in the tech and service industries, the total increase of 90 cents/hour or 21% was phased in gradually (as opposed to the $1.60 per hour or 31% proposed increase taking effect all at once) - and was also accompanied by a continuation of a 'training wage' which allowed newly hired employees to be paid the previous minimum wage level of $4.25 an hour for the first 90 days as well as a more generous tax write off schedule for small businesses to counteract their increasing labor costs (as opposed to today's accompanying increase in employer's share of SSI taxes + comp + disability costs).

The minimum wage increase immediately previous to the one you cited was in 1992, and your BLS file shows a clear increase in unemployment occurred at that time. Obviously, the US economy's ability to tolerate in increase in the minimum wage / labor costs in general without affecting the unemployment rate is dependent on many factors - with one large factor being the accuracy with which the BLS reports the 'total' unemployment rate. In other words, it's entirely possible for laid off minimum wage workers to simply stop looking for work, start collecting social welfare benefits, and thus 'disappear' from the unemployment statistics. My only point here is that I trust actual feedback from people working in minimum wage environments (or 'near minimum wage' environments) much more than BLS statistics which are telling me that unemployment is 4.5 percent and inflation is 2 percent !



And I work with people who min. wage was designed for (unskilled workers that will never move up the ladder) who drive me absolutely crazy

IMHO the thing that bothers me the most about increasing the minimum wage is the gov'ts ultimate goal of providing increased 'gov't mandated benefits' to the American 'poor' at the expense of employers, other employees, customers etc. who wind up picking up the gov't mandated increased labor costs. It wouldn't bother me at all if the gov't chose to simply give 'poor' Americans higher benefits and fund them via increased taxes in an honest and open manner, but then the politicians would have to face the music at election time. In comparison, the increased minimum wage allows the politicians to impose a 'stealth tax' on employers, other employees, and customers - but with very few of those employers, other employees and customers ever 'connecting the dots' come election time.