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AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 04:03 PM
So, what your saying is Meth isn't a bad drug? Not so sure I could agree with you there. Nuh uh.



Are you aware that Meth is schedule II, and legally available for many medical uses (as is cocaine, oxycontin, Ritalin (commonly given to children with ADD).


On the other hand, drugs like Marijuana, and LSD, along with Ecstasy, are schedule I, and completely prohibited.


The point is that Meth *abuse* can be bad but Meth is in fact a useful pharmaceutical, legally prescribed in the United States for a variety of medical conditions.


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AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 04:05 PM
I do agree with Alex that drug abuse is a symptom of much larger personal issues. Addiction and obsession of any kind is a disease that takes much more than just taking the target away to cure it.



Indeed, addiction is a purely psychological problem. Physical Dependancy is a separate issue with *some* substances, that *supports* but does not *cause* addiction.

Stanton Peele has much to say on this subject:

http://www.peele.net

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virgoamm
01-12-2007, 04:19 PM
Are you aware that Meth is schedule II, and legally available for many medical uses (as is cocaine, oxycontin, Ritalin (commonly given to children with ADD).

Do you honestly believe that the meth that is commonly abused is pharmaceutical grade???? C'mon, now. ::)

The only conditions I am aware of for any amphetamine being prescribed for medical use is for diet pills and people with narcolepsy. And ADD. Oh, and cocaine is a topical anesthetic used in eye surgery I believe.

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 04:26 PM
Drugs don't screw people up? Are you for real?? Yes, screwed up people develop drug habits, I am not denying that at all. But they also can claim victim to those who are otherwise completely normal people. That is a FACT.



If suppose, if you are using the word "fact" the way Fox News uses the word "fact".

If it were true that drugs screwed people up, then 100% of the people that used said drug would be fucked up. They are not.

Less than 15% of the people that use HARD drugs become "fucked up". Interestingly, this is about the same for alcohol. Oddly, with marijuana, that figure is more like 5%.

The reality is - that is, the FACT is - that drugs don't screw up people, but people with problems can certainly exacerbate their problems with drugs.


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AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 04:27 PM
Do you honestly believe that the meth that is commonly abused is pharamaceutical grade???? C'mon, now. ::)

The only conditions I am aware of for any amphetamine being prescribed for medical use is for diet pills and people with narcolepsy. And ADD. Oh, and cocaine is a topical anesthetic used in eye surgery I believe.

Nice to know you can use Wikipedea.

Cocaine is a topical anesthetic used in many types of surgeries. With irony it is used in nose jobs as well.


That's not the *point* - the point was I was responding to a comment that "meths is bad" ooohhhh. bad shame on that meth.


No. Meth is NOT BAD, but ABUSE is bad. There is a significant difference.



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Emily
01-12-2007, 04:28 PM
Nice to know you can use Wikipedea.


A

so clever! First making fun of someone for possibly voting for Bush and now using Wiki. Keep 'em coming.

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 04:38 PM
Where did I make fun of anyone?

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virgoamm
01-12-2007, 04:48 PM
so clever! First making fun of someone for possibly voting for Bush and now using Wiki. Keep 'em coming.

And you know what's even better, Emily? All that info came right out of my head and NOT from Wikipedia!:O

Jenny
01-12-2007, 04:50 PM
It seems to me that the discussion on whether drug use should be illegal/legal or is good/bad/neutral belongs in Member Boards, or at least the lounge. I would say the topic here is about drug testing in clubs.

virgoamm
01-12-2007, 04:53 PM
So I must be a walking encyclopedia-I guess I'll take that as a compliment!;)

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 05:17 PM
And you know what's even better, Emily? All that info came right out of my head and NOT from Wikipedia!:O

My comment was based on the fact that your *wording* echoed that on the wiki entry for schedule II substances.

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AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 05:19 PM
It seems to me that the discussion on whether drug use should be illegal/legal or is good/bad/neutral belongs in Member Boards, or at least the lounge. I would say the topic here is about drug testing in clubs.

I think this is all related to drug testing.

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Jenny
01-12-2007, 05:21 PM
It is a related but distinct topic. Which doesn't belong here.

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 05:29 PM
It is a related but distinct topic. Which doesn't belong here.

If you are bringing up the question of "if" drug testing should be done to dancers in clubs, then the relevant issues relating to the validity and motivation of said test certainly belongs with the rest of the thread.


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Jenny
01-12-2007, 05:36 PM
Yes, but the issue of the legality and illegality of drugs is distinct from the right or motivation of employers to administer drug tests. That is a political issue that belongs in member boards. Since you joined this board apparently only to ruin a perfectly decent and topic conversation, obviously the topic appeals to you. Perhaps you should introduce yourself to Member Boards to further discuss the matter in an appropriate context. As Emily said - all you're doing here is ruing a perfectly good thread.

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 05:49 PM
Yes, but the issue of the legality and illegality of drugs is distinct from the right or motivation of employers to administer drug tests.


But it has been my intent to focus on the right/motivation/validity of drug testing, not the issue of substance legality at large.


Example: Person A states that drug testing is a good idea. To which I retort that it isn't, and then explain why. Part of the explanation necessarily requires examination of aspects of the nature of drug use and abuse. You can't separate the issues and have a valid discussion.

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Bridgette
01-12-2007, 05:59 PM
For the record, since we've started talking about whether drugs SHOULD be illegal: I personally don't believe in criminilizing drug use. I think that creates more problems than it solves for our society.

BUT, since we live in a society where drugs ARE illegal (and that's not likely to change in any of our lifetimes or those of our grandchildren), we have to deal with it. I'd like to see as much illegal activity removed from our clubs as possible - as such, I'd like to see drugs removed from the clubs. If that means removing some part time users who aren't really problem strippers, so be it. Life is tough - make a couple sacrifices in order to improve the industry and your lot within it, or get the fuck out as far as I'm concerned. Survival of the fittest and all that.

As far as seeing drug abuse as an addiction problem: Duh, of course I do. THAT is precisely the problem here. Addicted girls are less able/willing to withstand the pressures we go through many times per night and give in to said pressure in order to get a quick buck. Their ability to make money the *right* way is hindered. Which hurts all of us. While I may have some sympathy for their problems, I don't feel that *I* or any other stripper should have to pay for it. Essentially, this is what happens - they steal, cheat, give in to pressure for extras, and WE ALL $pay$ for it in the form of lost income.

I don't believe any one of you is truly ok with that. You can talk all you want about privacy, freedom and whatever else. But I don't believe for one second that you are *honestly* ok with making less money for the benefit of *other* girls who can't get their shit together. On the most basic level, it's the equivalent of simply *handing* your money to them, and you will NEVER convince me you're ok with that.

I will say again: If we could get management to actually run our clubs properly, we wouldn't even be talking about this. But since that is also not likely to happen in any of our lifetimes, it would be to our collective benefit to figure out *something* to improve the industry.

Lola Rose
01-12-2007, 06:00 PM
If you really want to get back to the topic, we were discussing testing in the "behind the scenes" (so to speak) area of a strip club. That would mean that someone not employed there really can't understand. It is a specific type of enviroment that an outsider really doesn't know. Dating strippers doesn't give you the experience of knowing. Yes, Alex, you know a lot about drugs and testing, but not about the real issue. And I'd guess that's why you feel the need to question our information, sling insults and not let it go.

Jenny
01-12-2007, 06:01 PM
But it has been my intent to focus on the right/motivation/validity of drug testing, not the issue of substance legality at large.


Example: Person A states that drug testing is a good idea. To which I retort that it isn't, and then explain why. Part of the explanation necessarily requires examination of aspects of the nature of drug use and abuse. You can't separate the issues and have a valid discussion.

A
But you can keep it on topic. As this tangent also is not. You have unsuccessfully attmepted to focus on the validity of drug testing. You are completely leaving it behind. Many topics touch on many others; however in the interests of cohension of discussion people often opt to keep conversations and threads narrow and focussed. Someone else could similarly say that in order to fully flesh out the topic we need to discuss economics of Latin America, and politics from the 80s. You are not on topic, as you realize perfectly well. If you are interested in discussing the legality or illegality of drugs and the mechanics of addiction, you should start your own topic in Member Boards. Now let this derailment go; you may accept advice or leave it to mod discretion. However, it might make a better first impression if you don't require mod intervention within your first 30 posts. This is a long winded way of saying: You're being a punk. Cut it out.

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 06:05 PM
Do you honestly believe that the meth that is commonly abused is pharmaceutical grade???? C'mon, now. ::)




Irrelevant. The fact is that most people that use it *recreationally* don't have a *problem* with it.


That's not the point.


Who likes to hand out with people with drug *problems* - and by problem, I include Alcoholics. I've done my share of substance interventions, and it's sad to see people that have these problems, but they have these problems because of underlying issues.

The drug/alcohol abuse is only a *symptom* of a greater problem.

The problems with drug testing is that it victimizes *everyone* by invading their privacy, regardless of if they have a problem or not.

Let's take the story of Mae. Mae is a stripper, and when she's home she likes to smoke pot. She always arrives at work on time, and is good at her job.

One day her employer decides to instigate mandatory drug testing. She tests positive and is fired.


Is this fair?


The story continues:

The reason the management instituted drug testing is that there was a dancer who was always strung out, and creating problems in the club.

But here, no drug testing was needed. All that was needed was to terminate the individual causing the problems.


Do you see the point?


People should be held to their ACTIONS, and not penalized for actions they did not do. By drug testing everyone, even those that are "good" are penalized - it's like cutting off your arm because you have a wart on your thumb.

Drug testing does not help a problem, it only creates new ones.


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laplover69
01-12-2007, 06:09 PM
Good example of a mature post!

anyways, I dance legally, we have a no contact rule 6 inches between their body and mine when dancing, full nude. I agre that strict enforcement wouldn't work for everyone, but in my location and at my club, I think it would work well. A few dancers pushing the rules w/ drugs and contact ruin it for everyone. I don't think I could dance where the rules weren't enforced more then not. I don't mind contact, but I wouldn't do something that could get me charged with a sex crime. I guess I'm ok with the testing because I see it helping more for me then it could ever hurt me. It seems like even the club having these records (say you're tested evert 2 months) would protect the whole club from being shut down if there is a bust and drugs are found. I'm looking at the big picture like that, so it makes sense to me. Plus, it would be good for money! And that's my bottom line :)


Platinum Plus in Memphis, TN was recently shut by the FEDS on various charges drugs, prostitution, $$$ laundering etc. This club is not likely to reopen anytime soon... Did the drugs cause the prostitution? prostitution cause drugs abuse? or were most of the dancers drug addicts before they started dancing? Kind of begs the questions does the JOB create these problems or just attract them?

Lola Rose
01-12-2007, 06:10 PM
For the record, since we've started talking about whether drugs SHOULD be illegal: I personally don't believe in criminilizing drug use. I think that creates more problems than it solves for our society.

BUT, since we live in a society where drugs ARE illegal (and that's not likely to change in any of our lifetimes or those of our grandchildren), we have to deal with it. I'd like to see as much illegal activity removed from our clubs as possible - as such, I'd like to see drugs removed from the clubs. If that means removing some part time users who aren't really problem strippers, so be it. Life is tough - make a couple sacrifices in order to improve the industry and your lot within it, or get the fuck out as far as I'm concerned. Survival of the fittest and all that.

As far as seeing drug abuse as an addiction problem: Duh, of course I do. THAT is precisely the problem here. Addicted girls are less able/willing to withstand the pressures we go through many times per night and give in to said pressure in order to get a quick buck. Which hurts all of us. While I may have some sympathy for their problems, I don't feel that *I* or any other stripper should have to pay for it. Essentially, this is what happens - they steal, cheat, give in to pressure for extras, and WE ALL $pay$ for it in the form of lost income.

I don't believe any one of you is truly ok with that. You can talk all you want about privacy, freedom and whatever else. But I don't believe for one second that you are *honestly* ok with making less money for the benefit of *other* girls who can't get their shit together.

I completely agree. I'm against drugs and users itc because it's illegal. If it was legal, then I wouldn't care.
And I hate seeing myself loose money b/c in the custys eyes so and so gives a better (ie contact) dance. Tuesday I was told by a guy I'd been with for a good while, you're nicer and better looking, but I don't want anymore dances, b/c so and so will dance on my lap. Coincidently, so and so does coke. Her need to get high, desperation if you will, makes her willing to do illegal acts to make the necessary money.
If a dancer occassionally did drugs, and then her club started doing testing, she could make that choice:stop doing drugs or work somewhere else. If the drugs are more important then the job, chances are it'll be more then occassional soon.

to me, I see this as a way to increase my money. It's like in a regular job, when you get a raise, you are expected to do more. A bigger commitment for a larger income

ExoticEngineer
01-12-2007, 06:12 PM
I want to hug Jenny :hug:

Lola Rose
01-12-2007, 06:13 PM
Platinum Plus in Memphis, TN was recently shut by the FEDS on various charges drugs, prostitution, $$$ laundering etc. This club is not likely to reopen anytime soon... Di the drugs cause the prostitution? prostitution cause drugs abuse? or were most of the dancers drug addicts before they started dancing? Kind ob begs the questions does the JOB create these problems or just attract them?

whoa. This is a whole different post. I'd suggest a new thread ;)

Bridgette
01-12-2007, 06:17 PM
Dear Alex:

1. You're an OUTSIDER. You don't get it.
1. Continuing to scream the same crap is not gonna change anyone's mind.
2. Flooding the thread with your OFF-TOPIC perspective is only hurting your cause.
3. Your arguing technique is bad, so whatever point you're trying to make here is lost.
4. Go post your rant in Member Boards where it will be better received.

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 06:18 PM
For the record, since we've started talking about whether drugs SHOULD be illegal: I personally don't believe in criminilizing drug use. I think that creates more problems than it solves for our society..



I didn't intentionally go off topic to regard the overarching issue of legalization.

Regardless, some have stipulated the "drugs are bad, testing therefore good" straw man argument, and it's not possible to examine that argument without dispelling some of the myths relating to recreational substances.


1) Claiming that drug testing is good because drugs are bad is a spurious argument. Drugs are inanimate objects, incapable of *doing* anything, good or bad.

2) What a person DOES with a specific drug may be defined as good or bad, depending on what it is, with an eye on the in-context relevance of that action. And NO drug test can determine this.

3) There are plenty of things management can do to mitigate the issues of irresponsible dancers. I see it in some clubs here in Los Angeles - the better managed clubs have policies regarding attendance and behavior in the club, and that's all it seems to take to keep "rif raff" out. None of these clubs have drug testing.

Ultimately, if there is a problem with a number of dancers at a particularly club, it's a failure in management, that again, a drug test will not solve.


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laplover69
01-12-2007, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by laplover69
Platinum Plus in Memphis, TN was recently shut by the FEDS on various charges drugs, prostitution, $$$ laundering etc. This club is not likely to reopen anytime soon... Do the drugs cause the prostitution? prostitution cause drugs abuse? or were most of the dancers drug addicts before they started dancing? Kind of begs the questions does the JOB create these problems or just attract them?

whoa. This is a whole different post. I'd suggest a new thread

Someone want to start a new thread on this one?

Bridgette
01-12-2007, 06:24 PM
Alex, you're still just repeating the same thing. STOP IT!!! You're drowning out the fucking point!!!

Lola Rose
01-12-2007, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by laplover69
Platinum Plus in Memphis, TN was recently shut by the FEDS on various charges drugs, prostitution, $$$ laundering etc. This club is not likely to reopen anytime soon... Di the drugs cause the prostitution? prostitution cause drugs abuse? or were most of the dancers drug addicts before they started dancing? Kind ob begs the questions does the JOB create these problems or just attract them?

whoa. This is a whole different post. I'd suggest a new thread

Someone want to start a new thread on this one?

here ya go

I put it in stripping general so you could see our (the dancers) responses w/out alex being able to derail the wholew thing!

Pan Dah
01-12-2007, 07:02 PM
Platinum Plus in Memphis, TN was recently shut by the FEDS on various charges drugs, prostitution, $$$ laundering etc. This club is not likely to reopen anytime soon... Did the drugs cause the prostitution? prostitution cause drugs abuse? or were most of the dancers drug addicts before they started dancing? Kind of begs the questions does the JOB create these problems or just attract them?
Why must there be a correlation at all?

This is one particularly egregious club that got busted. From the lack of headlines blaring across the news, I have to assume there are still 4,000-6,000 clubs in this country that did NOT get shut down by the Feds for these charges.

I can recall cases of bodegas, pizza parlors, shoe repair shops, regular night clubs and large banks facing similar charges. Does that mean these businesses attract people with problems, or do they cause the problems?

I don't recall specific names, but back before Christmas, practically every store of the Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Target type I walked into had a desk to apply for jobs with a large sign warning applicants not to bother if they used drugs because the company tested for them. Is there something about working a checkout line that attracts druggies?

Lola Rose
01-12-2007, 07:16 PM
I don't recall specific names, but back before Christmas, practically every store of the Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Target type I walked into had a desk to apply for jobs with a large sign warning applicants not to bother if they used drugs because the company tested for them. Is there something about working a checkout line that attracts druggies?

I'd hqave to say it's the cash drawer.

Pan Dah
01-12-2007, 07:20 PM
I'd hqave to say it's the cash drawer.

LOL. Yeah, I thought about that as I was posting.:)

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 07:59 PM
Alex, you're still just repeating the same thing. STOP IT!!! You're drowning out the fucking point!!!

Okay - since you are indicating that I missed it, can you state the point clearly?


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Lola Rose
01-12-2007, 09:10 PM
Okay - since you are indicating that I missed it, can you state the point clearly?


A

the point: you don't work in clubs so you cannot understand that the unique enviroment attracts/breads junkies. Junkie have a major negative impact on how much clean (without drugs as well as extras) dancers can make by dancing clean.

ok... hope that's clear enough for you!

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 09:31 PM
the point: you don't work in clubs so you cannot understand that the unique enviroment attracts/breads junkies. Junkie have a major negative impact on how much clean (without drugs as well as extras) dancers can make by dancing clean.

ok... hope that's clear enough for you!


I'm a filmmaker - sometimes "legitimate" Hollywood fare, and other times I work in the adult entertainment industry, making films like this:

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7316014&style=ice&cart=463314616

I've spent plenty of time close to this industry to know *EXACTLY* the problems of drug abuse. On the film above, the original lead girl cast didn't show up (due to being strung out, blah blah) and we had to cast the backup for the lead. We all know that drug use is a problem in the adult industries. Not to mention spending well enough time at certain S.clubs in LA, hearing the stories and *seeing* the dramas unfold myself firsthand - I think I am pretty familiar with the issue.

Yea, people with PROBLEMS may develop drug problems.

No, drugs do not "create" problems, though they can support and exacerbate problems.

And also knowing that certain clubs that are *better managed*, that encourage higher quality women, create a safe environment, and enforce other rules have substantially fewer problems. All without DRUG TESTING.


THE POINT OF THIS THREAD:

Some here are claiming that DRUG TESTING is the solution to the problem. My point is that DRUG TESTING is not a solution, if anything it's an ineffectual band-aide that does nothing to correct underlying problems with bad management.

I also presented the idea that those in favor of drug testing seem to be parroting the standard neocon party line, which favors the ideas of a more authoritarian state.

I dismiss authoritarianism as a failed social structure, and am compelled to speak out against it when I see it being touted as "the way". It isn't. It may be *expedient* and it may be *black and white* but throughout human history, authoritarian systems have continued to fail, and sadly, only after extorting their toll on the populace.



I support any business in terminating any person for any reason, and of course this includes work performance issues such as might be exhibited by someone fucked up out of their minds. So fine, terminate those that are a problem.

But instigating some authoritarian privacy invasion isn't the way to solve this problem.

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Phoenix_Rising
01-12-2007, 09:56 PM
I think that drug testing would be...moot. As an owner, manager, etc. you should be able to look around and realize which girls are an asset or hindrance to your club. Yes, drugged out girls are certainly not an asset, but it's not just that. I've seen girls at clubs who are stone cold sober and ridiculously obnoxious, and really bad for business. If you're looking to weed out employees that will drag down your overall business, all you need to do is sit at the bar for an entire shift, after that, you'll know

Bridgette
01-12-2007, 10:12 PM
Alex. Just STOP already. Your input is unappreciated and unwelcome. You are an OUTSIDER and you don't fucking get it.

AlexDeLarge
01-12-2007, 10:14 PM
I think that drug testing would be...moot. As an owner, manager, etc. you should be able to look around and realize which girls are an asset or hindrance to your club.

Quoted for truth

Lola Rose
01-12-2007, 10:29 PM
Alex. Just STOP already. Your input is unappreciated and unwelcome. You are an OUTSIDER and you don't fucking get it.

wasted effort. i even put the point in bold and made it colorful and everything :(

FBR
01-12-2007, 10:30 PM
Threads that are controversial reach a point where its just back and forth repeating the same stuff. We are there.

FBR