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Jenny
01-20-2007, 10:51 PM
That's just my Anti Government / Counter Big Brother leanings coming out. Still we differ in our opinions on what is the actual cost, and what is necessity. Lets discuss the reason for People would decide not to marry. You can save the Feminist discussion for your coffee circle.
I could, however, I choose not to. This one of the many ways in which I see the world. How would you react if I told you to save your gun talk for your army buddies in every thread in which you insist a girl buy a firearm? If you find discussion of feminism so alarming, I strongly recommend that you stop reading my posts rather than telling me to stop posting it.



All accusations and characterizations aside..

What is necessity? Enough? Fair? Required? That is just to be debated forever......
What you call an "accusation" is really just an unflattering protrayal of what you advocate. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just framing them in a way you don't like and evidently can't deal with. "Necessity" in this context means "what is well within one's means to provide." Exactly what that is should be (and is) decided on a case by case basis because different people have differing needs and abilities.

ArmySGT.
01-20-2007, 11:40 PM
I could, however, I choose not to. This one of the many ways in which I see the world. How would you react if I told you to save your gun talk for your army buddies in every thread in which you insist a girl buy a firearm? If you find discussion of feminism so alarming, I strongly recommend that you stop reading my posts rather than telling me to stop posting it.Even you with your unique world view recognize that a recommendation for a girl to buy a firearm enhances her safety, empowers her if you will. My recommendations for woman purchasing a firearm doesn't consistently accuse the other gender to some all encompassing suppressive evil agenda.
what I am going to recommend is you seek therapy. I don't know why but every thread you participate you seek to espouse the concept that all Men are evil. A faceless horde that seeks to kill, cheat, rape, or enslave Women at every opportunity. Your sick. Seek help.




What you call an "accusation" is really just an unflattering protrayal of what you advocate. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just framing them in a way you don't like and evidently can't deal with. "Necessity" in this context means "what is well within one's means to provide." Exactly what that is should be (and is) decided on a case by case basis because different people have differing needs and abilities.

Ah framing thats what you choose to call it. Seek help.

Jenny
01-20-2007, 11:57 PM
Your sick. Seek help.
But I do know how to use contractions. "You're". Seek reading lessons.

Deogol
01-21-2007, 10:19 AM
Besides if we looked at any of these individual cases wewould probably find that just because one contributes DNA doesn't mean one is a Parent. Irregardless of income.

Ha! Sometimes you don't even need to contribute DNA and you are STILL tagged with child support. This shit happens all over the place and all the time:



LITTLE ROCK (AP) -- A man not the father of a child must still pay child support that a court said he owed the mother before he took a paternity test, the state Supreme Court says.
The court said Thursday that Anthony L. Parker must catch up on his child-support payments to that point, as the "acknowledged father of the child" until then, even though the test showed he was not, in fact, the father.






But don't you worry men - according to some girls at stripper web the system is NOT stacked against you!

Katrine
01-21-2007, 08:50 PM
Jenny is my hero.

ArmySGT and Deogol need to move to Montana and be each others butt lovers.

ArmySGT is going back on my ignore list.

And yes, Army, I am one of those children who discussed classical music and the arts. So did most of my friends. We all were either immigrants or had at least one immigrant parent that understood that education and quality of life isn't all about dropping off the kid at the public school.

Yekhefah
01-21-2007, 08:54 PM
Not just immigrants, Katrine. I was in the marching band and had several friends who were into classical music and jazz. I've been a big Tchaikovsky buff since I was a kid. I also had several friends with whom I discussed literature and opera, and none of us were born to immigrants. A few Americans still understand the importance of a well-rounded cultural education.

Jenny
01-21-2007, 09:08 PM
Jenny is my hero.

ArmySGT and Deogol need to move to Montana and be each others butt lovers.

ArmySGT is going back on my ignore list.

And yes, Army, I am one of those children who discussed classical music and the arts. So did most of my friends. We all were either immigrants or had at least one immigrant parent that understood that education and quality of life isn't all about dropping off the kid at the public school.
Nostalgic sigh. I remember being in ninth grade and thinking I had discovered existentialism and theatre of the absurd. And then being in 12th grade and thinking "existentialism was so ninth grade".

My parents were immigrants technically - but they were british, so they were practically non-immigrants. Does that still count?

Deogol
01-21-2007, 09:10 PM
Jenny is my hero.

ArmySGT and Deogol need to move to Montana and be each others butt lovers.

Homosexuality as an insult? Are you anti-homosexual? How strange given you go on about being bisexual.

While I am off to Montana, maybe someday they will pack you off to the Ukraine.

Maybe I will attack your concerns so cold heartedly.

Or... we can stop attacking each other personally and make our points differently.

Jenny
01-21-2007, 09:20 PM
Homosexuality as an insult? Are you anti-homosexual? How strange given you go on about being bisexual.
I think she more means that you can completely occupy each other, thus, by inference, freeing the rest of us from your distasteful and pernicious influence. I don't think she is hoping to inflict either of you on the gay community at large (sorry Kat, if I am speaking out of turn. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken).


While I am off to Montana, maybe someday they will pack you off to the Ukraine.

Maybe I will attack your concerns so cold heartedly.

Or... we can stop attacking each other personally and make our points differently.
Deogol, you act all badassed until someone actually takes you up, and then you cry and run away shouting "meanie". You rely on other people's innate courtesy and dignity to avoid actually conflicting with you to try to make them back off while you personally attack them, and then if someone doesn't actually back off you fall to the ground screaming "My heart! I have a heart condition! You're aggravating my heart condition with your meanness!" Don't be such a damn baby.

Katrine
01-21-2007, 09:34 PM
Jenny is correct.

And yes, Yekefah, I didn't mean to imply that only immigrants value arts, cultire, philosophy, etc. That was a big short-sighted on my part, I'm sorry.

But it IS important to give these things to our children if we can afford them.

Deogol
01-21-2007, 10:10 PM
Deogol, you act all badassed until someone actually takes you up, and then you cry and run away shouting "meanie". You rely on other people's innate courtesy and dignity to avoid actually conflicting with you to try to make them back off while you personally attack them, and then if someone doesn't actually back off you fall to the ground screaming "My heart! I have a heart condition! You're aggravating my heart condition with your meanness!" Don't be such a damn baby.

Oh, puh-leeze.

I could certainly write some disparaging words towards you Jenny, but I am not going to get into a mud throwing contest with you.

Deogol
01-21-2007, 10:11 PM
Jenny is correct.

And yes, Yekefah, I didn't mean to imply that only immigrants value arts, cultire, philosophy, etc. That was a big short-sighted on my part, I'm sorry.

But it IS important to give these things to our children if we can afford them.


To much football.

sun child
01-21-2007, 10:31 PM
"I could certainly write some disparaging words about you Jenny" — Deogol

That was hilarious. Thank you.
Girls, I'm on your side.

ArmySGT.
01-21-2007, 11:52 PM
Jenny is my hero.

ArmySGT and Deogol need to move to Montana and be each others butt lovers.

ArmySGT is going back on my ignore list.

And yes, Army, I am one of those children who discussed classical music and the arts. So did most of my friends. We all were either immigrants or had at least one immigrant parent that understood that education and quality of life isn't all about dropping off the kid at the public school.

I so marvel at the immense maturity that Classical Music and the Arts have bestowed upon you.

Considering your contributions, I will not miss your response. Buh Bye

ArmySGT.
01-22-2007, 12:01 AM
The discussion was sidelined away from a discussion on the probable causes for the decline in marriage. Since co-habitation doesn't require any Government or Church approval there can be little or no statistical data to store and compare. This is to be desired by many couples. On the downside it leaves you in the lurch upon severing such a relationship without legal recourse.

ArmySGT.
01-22-2007, 12:03 AM
But I do know how to use contractions. "You're". Seek reading lessons.

Is this where we go? Devolving to playground insults.

Seek help. Your really not a well person.

Djoser
01-22-2007, 04:19 AM
Is this where we go? Devolving to playground insults.

Seek help. Your really not a well person.

I used to get insulted all the time on the playground, but not once for using bad grammar. In fact using correct grammar wasn't usually wise.

In fact, any display of erudition as an adult will still get you viewed as a weird dude in most social milieux--and even assaulted in a few I've found myself in.


I really don't know you except from your replies to my post about the fight we had at my club, which were very interesting. And I sure agree that marriage is dumb, lol!

I haven't been able to read through this entire thread yet, but I got off to fairly good start.

Marriage sucks for a lot of reasons. Most fail, and even the 'successful' marriages seem like Living Hell from my perspective.

Alimony is bullshit.

Child support, however, is vitally necessary. The fact that some abuse exists doesn't negate the fact that single women raising kids have an extremely difficult task. They need all the help they can get, as a general rule.

By far the vast majority of single parents are women.



You have no idea how insulting those words you wrote are to people like I who grew up in poverty.

I don't get this, though of course I didn't see the movie. So what I got out of Paris' post was this:

"If you have a child to raise it is nessessary to make personal sacrifices to feed, clothe and shelter your child until he/she is old enough to take care of himself."

Deogol, I have always liked you, but how do you get her insulting people who have been impoverished from this? Is it the movie?

Because it sounds to me like she is in favor of children being kept from suffering impoverishment. So I'm confused how she's insulting anyone.


I was raised by my twice-divorced single mother, along with my brother from her first husband. My dad was a laborer for masons, making shit pay at first, who busted his ass and became relatively wealthy as a contractor. He was broke when I was very young, but he paid my child support--and then went on to become wealthy.

My brother's dad never did, so we suffered a bit from that problem.

We were very poor when I was very young. I remember my mom screaming, then literally sobbing in hysterics on the floor because my 7 year old brother dropped the jar of jam that was our only food except the bread to put it on. No butter. No fucking Lucky Charms (thank god, lol).

Once in a while I remember this and it still hurts to think of my mom suffering so much, because she was doing what she could for us. Instead of using her phenomenal looks to go out and play with all the guys that were drooling over her, wherever she went (looking back on it, it was funny to see them--hordes of them).

It's a visceral memory.

If anyone has a right to be insulted by Paris, it would be me.

But instead I have invariably found her to be a woman of integrity and honor, even if I occasionally disagree with her.

And Army Sgt., I don't get your reaction to AndyGirl's points about deadbeat dads. Deadbeat dads are statistically a much greater problem than women using child support to buy rims, trust me.

But maybe I should stay out of this, lol--Member Boards are usually trouble.

NinaDaisy
01-22-2007, 06:34 AM
Require her to get an abortion just as he is required to pay? }:D

I gather by your emoticon that you are indeed kidding. If men are really that scared to knock someone up, they should wear a condom, even if the girl says she's on the pill. If they're that worried, wrap it up every time.

Jenny
01-22-2007, 08:00 AM
Is this where we go? Devolving to playground insults.

Seek help. Your really not a well person.
Oh, honey - you are just too precious. And I seriously believe that you do not see any irony in that whatsoever - like, you really do think you're a victim, don't you sweetie? It must be hard being you.

A word of advice from me to you (and do with it what you will): if you are looking for a bunch women to lay down and take it, you are in the WRONG place. I would suggest that you take yourself to an actual stripclub forthwith - for $20 a song they'll agree with anything you want, and a few will probably let you insult them and act like they deserve it. But until you are paying us $20 a comment - don't expect the same treatment here. If you want the chicks here to be polite and deferential to you - well, good luck, not going to happen, but you'll get closer by being polite and deferential to them.

Jenny
01-22-2007, 08:03 AM
I gather by your emoticon that you are indeed kidding. If men are really that scared to knock someone up, they should wear a condom, even if the girl says she's on the pill. If they're that worried, wrap it up every time.
Not to mention the simple, obvious and basic fact that there is a fundamental difference in violating someone's body and making them pay for something. This is a difference acknowledged at pretty much EVERY level of society.

christian211
01-22-2007, 08:29 AM
I gather by your emoticon that you are indeed kidding. If men are really that scared to knock someone up, they should wear a condom, even if the girl says she's on the pill. If they're that worried, wrap it up every time.

Uhhh, thanks! Your words were much kinder than the ones that came to my mind.

How about a man should want to pay b/c he, gasp, loves his child and wants what"s best for him/her????? Am I being totally unrealistic in thinking this??? Can men really disregard a being made of their body, their blood??? It's like as soon as child support is asked for , a man's sole intent and purpose is to screw over the woman completely disregarding the well being of their own flesh and blood. What happened to loving a child and wanting what's best for them? Am I being completely unreasonable here??????? Men are so narcissistic (sp?). Sometimes it ain't only about you;)

Yekhefah
01-22-2007, 08:45 AM
Can men really disregard a being made of their body, their blood???

Is that a trick question?

christian211
01-22-2007, 08:58 AM
^^^^^ they're all trick questions, and the answer is most men are self indulgent, paranoid douchebags;D Djoser, you're cool, no direspect, lol! When I see a man get/ want full custody of their child(ren) , it get's me all wet}:D Not too many of them walking around!!!

Yekhefah
01-22-2007, 09:02 AM
I don't think MOST are, but certainly too many are.

Andygirl
01-22-2007, 10:56 AM
Wasn't this Ex already bad and why you divorced him?

I was never married to him.



Good, if Ex is inconvenienced; bad, if you are inconvenienced. Your issue is that you want to hurt your Ex some more. Make him suffer.

Actually, we get along fairly well now. I have no desire to make him suffer or anything else, his happiness or lack thereof is none of my business.




So you suspect; though you don't know. Guilt by presumption....... Yep being the Custodial Parent has that obligation that comes with having the child under your care full time.[/quote

Ok, then, I will just say that I have spent more time with my daughter than her dad has. And that's been the case with all of the single moms I know. Anecdotal, yes, but I can only speak from my own personal experience.



[quote]Food Stamps are regulated! Bwah hahhah hah hah hah........... You don't really want to make that comparison do you. "Regulated" food stamps are going to people that are not even Citizens.

I'm not going to get into that, but you can't purchase just anything with food stamps. It's not just like cash. A woman can't walk in with food stamps and leave with a case of beer, it doesn't work like that.


Yes I can very seriously expect Child support to be regulated. When financial aid is mandated with a penalty of imprisonment for noncompliance yes I can very much expect the use to be regulated.

Well, you just go ahead and fight for that then. I'm sure we'll never see it happen, but go ahead and fight.


Now correct me if I am wrong here. When you went to divorce court to have your marriage dissolved wasn't custody arranged then. So the Court compelled your Ex to pay a agreed upon amount or be incarcerated at that time. So going to again would be for non compliance with the court order. Right.

Again, I was never married to him and have never been through divorce court. I took him to court when she was about three and it was obvious that he wasn't going to come through with money unless I did so.

He's gone to jail for it before, and even though he's stupid he's smart enough to know how much to pay to stay out. I consider any money I get from him a bonus. I've already paid out like crazy for every need my child has, and I can afford it and am used to it. If I happen to get a check it goes into my checking account with the rest of my living expenses money. I certainly don't rely on it.

NinaDaisy
01-22-2007, 01:40 PM
Uhhh, thanks! Your words were much kinder than the ones that came to my mind.

How about a man should want to pay b/c he, gasp, loves his child and wants what"s best for him/her????? Am I being totally unrealistic in thinking this??? Can men really disregard a being made of their body, their blood??? It's like as soon as child support is asked for , a man's sole intent and purpose is to screw over the woman completely disregarding the well being of their own flesh and blood. What happened to loving a child and wanting what's best for them? Am I being completely unreasonable here??????? Men are so narcissistic (sp?). Sometimes it ain't only about you;)

In a perfect world, you'd be right, but quite a few parents aren't. Women abandon children too, but men do it more often. But of course not all or even the majority of men. Still, I think a lot of people get excited about the prospect of parenthood and when reality hits, some flee. Physically, financially, emotionally or a combo of those. :(

JustJayda
01-22-2007, 02:48 PM
States are not required to make an agreement nor are they required to agree to an amount. A California court may order $1000 in Child support however Texas where the non custodial parent lives may only require that $300 is paid.


Where are u getting this info? I am living proof that I got money from my son's father(an Ohio res.) according to NJ's calculations/court. It was all under the umbrella of EURISA or something like that. They take it out every single month, without fail. I don't think it matters where the non-custodial parent lives. Its where the child lives or was born (it was my choice of where I wanted to file).

Deogol
01-22-2007, 06:03 PM
"I could certainly write some disparaging words about you Jenny" — Deogol

That was hilarious. Thank you.
Girls, I'm on your side.

Yep. And that is why guys aren't interested in getting married these days.

Deogol
01-22-2007, 06:08 PM
Well, I don't know where the whole idea of men shouldn't be forced to pay child support is coming from other than from people who want to skew the conversation into some men bashing.

The question was around how child support was actually going to women instead of to the kid (we can agree this is wrong?) and about how much is appropriate.

Not only that, complete silence or denial there are men out there who are forced by court order to pay child support for children that are provably not theirs.

I now return you to men bashing and name calling.

Sirona
01-22-2007, 06:17 PM
Well, I don't know where the whole idea of men shouldn't be forced to pay child support is coming from other than from people who want to skew the conversation into some men bashing.

The question was around how child support was actually going to women instead of to the kid (we can agree this is wrong?) and about how much is appropriate.

Not only that, complete silence or denial there are men out there who are forced by court order to pay child support for children that are provably not theirs.

I now return you to men bashing and name calling.

There are non-custodial parents, male and female alike, who are dicks about helping to support thier kids.

There are custodial parents who mis-spend money meant for the care of the kids.

Both are wrong and suck. I don't think anyone would disagree.

However, I know of more dead beat parents (mainly male) who are fuckers about helping to take care of thier own kid than I do parents who spend the child support on themself rather than the kids.

As for people who aren't genetic parents having to pay child support... I can think of few circumstances where that might be the right thing and i'd assume it's a rare occurance.

Jenny
01-22-2007, 06:21 PM
Oh, puh-leeze.

I could certainly write some disparaging words towards you Jenny, but I am not going to get into a mud throwing contest with you.
Well, of course you're not. The last time you ran away crying about how mean I was. That's what I said - that you prefer to sling mud without getting it slung back. You don't like contests. We all know that.

As for men paying child support on children that aren't theirs - again, look at the facts. Unique and particular circumstances.

Deogol
01-22-2007, 06:30 PM
Well, of course you're not. The last time you ran away crying about how mean I was. That's what I said - that you prefer to sling mud without getting it slung back. You don't like contests. We all know that.


Sad sad little girl. /:O

Deogol
01-22-2007, 06:31 PM
As for men paying child support on children that aren't theirs - again, look at the facts. Unique and particular circumstances.


Intellectual denial. It's a shame there are no interventions for such things.

Jenny
01-22-2007, 06:34 PM
Sad sad little girl. /:O
Again, you're just saying that because you know I'm smarter than you, and you are extremely unlikely to make sense in an actual discussion. All you can do is scour the news for unusual decisions that reflect unusual facts and try to use them to bolster your backlash laden ideas. But if it makes you feel better to pretend like you think I'm sad and little - well, knock yourself out, but I know you're lying.

Deogol
01-22-2007, 10:50 PM
Again, you're just saying that because you know I'm smarter than you, and you are extremely unlikely to make sense in an actual discussion. All you can do is scour the news for unusual decisions that reflect unusual facts and try to use them to bolster your backlash laden ideas. But if it makes you feel better to pretend like you think I'm sad and little - well, knock yourself out, but I know you're lying.

Add "smug" and "egotistic" to the description above given the whole "I'm smarter than you" comment.

Jenny
01-23-2007, 05:16 AM
Add "smug" and "egotistic" to the description above given the whole "I'm smarter than you" comment.
Oh, honey - that's just me having a good grasp on reality. It's not your fault - you were born that way. And the sad state of the American public school system probably didn't help (tell me the truth - how long would it take you to locate your country on a map?) Really, when you think about it, no wonder you've latched onto this "I can blame the feminists for all my problems. It's their fault I can't form a cogent argument. Fucking bitches."

I would say that I would hit "smug and egotistical" when I comment that I am likely better looking than you too. But I suppose I can grant that this kind of evaluation is a little subjective.

Deogol
01-23-2007, 06:59 PM
Oh, honey - that's just me having a good grasp on reality. It's not your fault - you were born that way. And the sad state of the American public school system probably didn't help (tell me the truth - how long would it take you to locate your country on a map?) Really, when you think about it, no wonder you've latched onto this "I can blame the feminists for all my problems. It's their fault I can't form a cogent argument. Fucking bitches."

I would say that I would hit "smug and egotistical" when I comment that I am likely better looking than you too. But I suppose I can grant that this kind of evaluation is a little subjective.

I am sure the erudite circles awake in the morning all giddy anticipating your pearls of intellectual "humor."

ArmySGT.
01-26-2007, 09:56 PM
What is EURISA?

Besides a baby name that means idealism. The part you may have missed was not required to I.E. the Federal Gov is not allowed under the previous stated Constitutional amendment to compel that State to pay the Resident of another. How did you get paid? No doubt a reciprocal agreement between NJ and OH to honor decisions rendered by eithers Courts.

ArmySGT.
01-26-2007, 10:23 PM
Oh, honey - you are just too precious.

Hmmmmmm Fear much? Little pet names are the products of fear. Used to lessen the object of that is feared.


A word of advice from me to you (and do with it what you will): if you are looking for a bunch women to lay down and take it, you are in the WRONG place. I would suggest that you take yourself to an actual stripclub forthwith - for $20 a song they'll agree with anything you want, and a few will probably let you insult them and act like they deserve it. But until you are paying us $20 a comment - don't expect the same treatment here. If you want the chicks here to be polite and deferential to you - well, good luck, not going to happen, but you'll get closer by being polite and deferential to them.


This would be advise for baseless and imagined accusations? Nice. You have peeked my curiousity though. Like a bloody car wreck I can't help looking. What cognitive contortions you must force the words before you to fit your assumptions of evil. I certainly not in the wrong place since I enjoy a good heated discussion. However you can trot your pretensions out; show pony if you like, since you don't cut my paycheck. Maybe some others could point out threads where my supposed misogynistic replys are waiting to be revealed.

Since advice is being given when unnecessary our asked for here is some for you. Dominatrix work. Why not? You can indulge your angers and "punish" Men. Win, Win for you and you get paid too. Won't help you with your trust or love issues. Can't make up for what ever inappropriate act turned you this way. Still you can "feel better" and get money. Over a telephone you would not have to even leave the mirror your in love with. Go get em Tiger.

stripperMBA
01-28-2007, 01:28 PM
My parents both divorced twice each and now on their third marraige are kind of together again. do not ask me how I do not get it. I love them both equally they are my parents. But the thing I cannot stand about either of them is that they are both very bitter. They each blame each other for the failures in their marraige. That whole man hating woman and woman hating man thing just is stupid. So I will state exactly what I told my parents. It was before my sisters wedding and my father was refusing to go because mom would be there. then my mother was not going because my dad was going to be there add into the mix plenty of step family. Keep in mind my sister had a informal wedding where she and her husband paid for everything. So my sister calls me crying because all she wanted was my parents to show up and pose for some pics. they both balked henceforth my speech to my parents which I will try to write as much as I can remember:
I know you are still bitter about your divorce, and frankly I do not care. There is enough blame to go around for both of you. You need to show up to Elena's wedding tommorow because you love her more than the hatred you have for each other. Years ago you chose to get married as adults. It was not like anyone forced you to do it. both of you did that together. So if you are going to blame anyone for the divorce, custody battle, and child support disputes you should just go look in the mirror. I expect both of you to show up to Elena's wedding and to do the few things she asks you to do. If you do not you will have no part of any future grandkids life.)
They both showed up. I am sure the speech I gave them was longer but right after I finished I left them in the restaraunt together alone. I hate bitter people, and if a person does not use a condom or birth control and then complains thereafter about child support it is not my problem. By the way both my parents paid child support at one time because me and my sister where in the custody of my step father.
People do not marry as often today because there is no real reason to do so. And that is ok. The June Cleaver family never existed anyway although I think my birth parents expected it did. I take my parents divorce as a lesson and like most people of divorced parents. I do not want to make the same mistakes they did. So I will take the first lesson that I will only marry when I am mature enough do deal with every thing that comes with that. That is why I am not married yet.

ArmySGT.
01-28-2007, 02:06 PM
StripperMBA,
Good post! There is much to be said for waiting until one is mature enough before marriage.

Casual Observer
01-31-2007, 08:08 PM
Young people today live in a perpetual state of adolescence. This is partly due to economic reality (lots of barriers to entry to starting a family these days, such as lack of job security, high student loan debt, etc.) and also cultural shifts that the media plays on and corporations deftly exploit.

SmartCookie is on to something here.


True. You blow a load in a chick and be ready to deal with any and all potential consequences.

Agreed. I won't say I agree with the grotesque disparity in reproductive rights in this country (men basically have none), but that doesn't make ND's colorful axiom any less true.

Jenny
01-31-2007, 08:19 PM
Agreed. I won't say I agree with the grotesque disparity in reproductive rights in this country (men basically have none), but that doesn't make ND's colorful axiom any less true.
Really? What reproductive rights do you think men should have that they don't? I mean the only disparity I'm aware of is that women have access to abortion, and cannot be forced to have an abortion - and I'm sure you can't be suggesting that women should abortions on demand from men, or only on tolerance from men. That's not really a disparity, because men don't get pregnant. That's just a basic acknowledgement of reality

Deogol
01-31-2007, 09:13 PM
Really? What reproductive rights do you think men should have that they don't? I mean the only disparity I'm aware of is that women have access to abortion, and cannot be forced to have an abortion - and I'm sure you can't be suggesting that women should abortions on demand from men, or only on tolerance from men. That's not really a disparity, because men don't get pregnant. That's just a basic acknowledgement of reality

It's called a financial abortion. Just as she has the right to decide on being responsible for the child - he also should have a right to do so.

Jenny
01-31-2007, 09:44 PM
It's called a financial abortion. Just as she has the right to decide on being responsible for the child - he also should have a right to do so.
Except for that is a silly comparison, and there is no disparity there. An extant child has a right to financial support from both parents. A woman doesn't have the option to decline on being financially responsible for a child. She has the option to terminate a pregnancy. Comparing a financial obligation to a fundamental physical integrity goes beyond silly to repugnant. Repugnant in a silly fashion.

Deogol
02-01-2007, 08:10 AM
Except for that is a silly comparison, and there is no disparity there. An extant child has a right to financial support from both parents. A woman doesn't have the option to decline on being financially responsible for a child. She has the option to terminate a pregnancy. Comparing a financial obligation to a fundamental physical integrity goes beyond silly to repugnant. Repugnant in a silly fashion.

Hmm. You mean a woman has never looked at her financial situation and thought "Better I don't have this kid!"

Abortion is a financial decision. I would lay odds it is a financial decision nearly every time outside of rape or deformity.

Women do decline on financial responsibility. It's silly to think not! Meanwhile it is "no choice" for men who find themselves in the same situation as the woman does.

Yekhefah
02-01-2007, 08:43 AM
Hm... signing a form to opt out of spending money, vs. risking your life and health with invasive surgery.

Yep, you're right, same difference. ::)

Jenny
02-01-2007, 08:53 AM
Hmm. You mean a woman has never looked at her financial situation and thought "Better I don't have this kid!"

Abortion is a financial decision. I would lay odds it is a financial decision nearly every time outside of rape or deformity.

Women do decline on financial responsibility. It's silly to think not! Meanwhile it is "no choice" for men who find themselves in the same situation as the woman does.
Honey - this is idiotic. You can't honestly be saying that you see no difference between subjecting someone to surgical invasion and making them sign a cheque (wait a minute - you probably can. I forgot. You're pretty hostile to women having options). This is a difference that is acknowledged at every level of the social and legal system - it is not just in regards to abortion. As for your odds - I would lay odds that you don't know very much about what most women consider when they are having abortions. Consider the number of poor women who don't have abortions and the number of (relatively) wealthy women who do. There is NO DIFFERENCE in financial responsibility for a born alive child that is claimed by one or both parents. That is - if the woman abrogates custody to the father, he absolutely can (and should) claim child support. The difference is not in terms of child support, but in terms of bodily integrity. Trying to equate the two is a losers game, and will never win an equality argument, because there is NO inequality until men get pregnant, want to terminate and cannot and women can.

Paris
02-01-2007, 01:47 PM
Abortion is a financial decision. I would lay odds it is a financial decision nearly every time outside of rape or deformity.


Wow, that is naive. If I was to become pregnant today, I would have an abortion. It would have nothing to do with my financial position. I am not in any way interested in having a baby. The thought of putting my body through that kind of trama terrifies me. Really. I don't know if there is a phobia of pregnancy, but if there is, I've got it.

There are women who would end a pregnancy due to career decsions. Do you think Condi Rice would see a pregnancy through if she discoverd she was pregnant today? Not likely, no matter what her 'official' postition on abortion, she'd terminate it secretly.

Sheesh, money isn't EVERYTHING::).

Paris
02-01-2007, 01:53 PM
I might also add that women can and do (knowingly) pay to support other women's children. Suprised? You shouldn't be. I financially support another woman's child. He is my stepson, and I love him very much. I would take on the full responsibility of raising this child if something happened to one or both of his parents. I buy him food and clothes and toys and shelter and medicine.

I know plenty of women who sacrifice financially for other women's children. Why would men be any different? If you love a child, what difference does it make whose DNA made that child?