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Pinups4DotCom
03-21-2007, 09:08 PM
Thank you Cally. I'd LOVE to have you involved... but you're right, no nude for pinups4 (unless we can cover the nudity in a creative way with logos or something that fits the theme). I look forward to it

amylynnej
03-22-2007, 03:51 PM
Obviously youre not because you come off as desperate here, like you seem so determined to prove yourself.

Cally
03-22-2007, 10:19 PM
Obviously youre not because you come off as desperate here, like you seem so determined to prove yourself.

And you seem so determined to come off as a stuck up bitch but you dont hear us complaining ::)

Pinups4DotCom
03-23-2007, 05:35 AM
Amy, you clearly aren't interested...and that's fine. Why do you insist on trying to tear down something you clearly don't understand?

If you have PROOF that something sinister is going on with Pinups4...please provide it. Since there isn't, we're all volunteer, and have spent a year (and $2000 of my own money) laying infrastructure here (not to mention making donations to great charities and working toward a 2008 calendar)...I know you can't do that.

Cally, thanks again!

VenusGoddess
03-23-2007, 08:07 AM
Obviously youre not because you come off as desperate here, like you seem so determined to prove yourself.

Since you've been back, you've been nothing but a mean little brat. Why don't you take a break and chill out. When you can be nicer, then come back.

cinammonkisses
03-23-2007, 11:07 AM
3. I am a volunteer, so is everyone else involved.
a) why should the model be any different? either she believes in the cause or not
b) exactly where the money to pay a model would come from I don't know
c) any pay to anyone reduces the $$ donated to the charity.

I have a solution to your problem. Since you cannot pay your models, the next best form of payment would be for YOU to sign over ALL of your rights as a photographer to the model. That way after this "fundraiser" is over, she can do what she wants with these photos ie. make her profits. If you aren't willing to do that, then I agree with Emily:
You want the "best models"....the best models want to get paid, not hear promises about possibly seeing some producer.

Pinups4DotCom
03-23-2007, 05:08 PM
Cinnamon, I still don't get why a model's talents are any more highly valued than the other folks involved (photographer, MUA, marketing, PR, fullfillment service, etc.) involved.

And, if she had the rights to re-sell the photos later, it would follow that she should pay the photographer for the services required to take them(at least partially)

and allowing her to sell them would reduce their value to the charity, as it definitelly creates another avenue (besides that which benefits the charity) for the photo to be sold. Also, depending on how she promotes it, and what her reputation it, it potentially has a negative effect on the value of the photos and could (in extreme cases) come to reflect poorly on the charity.

Again...this is a VOLUNTEER effort to DO GOOD while gaining exposure/promotion. The producer "thing" is a BONUS that might or might not be there. The real point is to use our skills to do good (since so many in this business can't afford to/aren't disciplined enough to donate directly).

People either want to do it or don't - we frankly have too many models wanting to get in, and not enough time to shoot them (and are bringing more photogs on-line). If you don't have an interest, I understand.

cameronfl
03-23-2007, 05:44 PM
I have to agree...either you donate your time and talents(whatever they may be) to a charity or you dont.Getting paid in any way kind of defeats the purpose. That goes for everyone involved. Thats like saying you are making sandwiches to feed the hungry...but you demand a bite of every sandwich. and so does the photographer, the marketing people, PR, etc.
By the time everyone takes their "bites"...there isnt enough left for the hungry to bother.

Jenny
03-23-2007, 07:50 PM
Cinnamon, I still don't get why a model's talents are any more highly valued than the other folks involved (photographer, MUA, marketing, PR, fullfillment service, etc.) involved.
Because nobody else has bikini shots of themselves circulated? Just a guess.


and allowing her to sell them would reduce their value to the charity, as it definitelly creates another avenue (besides that which benefits the charity) for the photo to be sold. Also, depending on how she promotes it, and what her reputation it, it potentially has a negative effect on the value of the photos and could (in extreme cases) come to reflect poorly on the charity.
But that could be the case regardless, even if the same photographs aren't used.


Again...this is a VOLUNTEER effort to DO GOOD while gaining exposure/promotion. The producer "thing" is a BONUS that might or might not be there. The real point is to use our skills to do good (since so many in this business can't afford to/aren't disciplined enough to donate directly).
Whoa! You did not really just say that! And you were doing so well. Again - you made a bad impression on some girls here by strutting in with the "meet some famous people, you starfuckers!" attitude. Really, I wouldn't compound that with a "you may meet some famous people, starfuckers" and "you cheap asses can't handle your finances well enough to support charities." I've done volunteer coordination - I know for damn sure that is not how you attract them.


People either want to do it or don't - we frankly have too many models wanting to get in, and not enough time to shoot them (and are bringing more photogs on-line). If you don't have an interest, I understand.
Really? Models are beating down your door for this opportunity? Well then gosh. Why are you here looking for advice on how to sell potentially meeting producers as payment for a car show? Like if everything is going so swimmingly, and you are in fact too busy to deal with all the donated talent why are you here soliciting for more? I read your website and I approve of charity, but there is something off about you. Just saying.

cinammonkisses
03-23-2007, 08:20 PM
^^^Jenny is exactly right! Models are the only ones whose image is circulating around the world. That image can live with a model (whether postive/negative) forever..




People either want to do it or don't - we frankly have too many models wanting to get in, and not enough time to shoot them (and are bringing more photogs on-line). If you don't have an interest, I understand.

I'm gonna be totally honest with you on this...looking at your work, I dont see how this is even possible. Your lighting is poor, you shoot at bad angles, models aren't posed correctly in alot of your shot.

cinammonkisses
03-23-2007, 08:21 PM
Really? Models are beating down your door for this opportunity? Well then gosh. Why are you here looking for advice on how to sell potentially meeting producers as payment for a car show? Like if everything is going so swimmingly, and you are in fact too busy to deal with all the donated talent why are you here soliciting for more? I read your website and I approve of charity, but there is something off about you. Just saying.

LOL say it again Jenny! ;D

What bothers me most about this cause is the fact that it states, "a portion of these proceeds go to charity" How much? For all people know (these photographers, models, MUA, ppl who donate to your cause) you could be only donating 10% of your profits..no one knows..

Pinups4DotCom
03-23-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm not the only photographer on the project - which was the whole idea. We are now working (pictures to be released once I get everyone's paperwork) with about 10 great photographers...so your comments are pointless.

I intended no statements to be insulting (which hardly seems mutual) - but in more than 10 years in this business (working with models in general, not just dancers) plus the conversations on here, I hardly thought it would be controversial that many models would find it difficult to part with financial donations and would prefer an option that allows a donation of time.

Actually, the reason I started this thread was NOT to solicit more talent...but to ask for advice (which I got and am thankful for) about an "offer" that was made to me regarding car shows. Somehow it was turned around that I was trying to use the "producer line" to solicit for models. In fact (if you read the post) the producer offer was made by the car show organizer...not me. So please direct your concern where it belongs.

In any event, there's clearly nothing to be gained for my project in continuing this thread. I wish you all the best.

Nautilus
03-23-2007, 08:45 PM
shoulda just asked us all for donations to x charity and provided the link. could've saved 3 pages.

Pinups4DotCom
03-23-2007, 09:00 PM
The only donations we at Pinups4 seek are donations of photos. You choose the charity the proceeds go to.

Nautilus
03-23-2007, 09:08 PM
that just doesn't make any sense.

Pinups4DotCom
03-24-2007, 05:19 AM
artists donate images,and indicate what charity they want the sales to support. We manage sales/marketing/fullfilment and send the charity a check in the artists' name. We send the artist a thank-you note every time we send the charity a check.

How simple can it be?
Anyway, I'm done trying to wade through this thread. Thanks.

scarlett_vancouver
03-24-2007, 06:00 AM
It says 'portion' of the proceeds go to charity, and doesn't explain further? Ooooooh, that is a hot button for me. I absolutely can't STAND an organization that profits from charity. Like those bullshit fashion companies that market a scarf and are like "$2 from every sale goes to the Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation", and it's an ugly $38 scarf that they would never be able to sell except for the 'charity' angle. Fuck that.

Pinups, you are ostensibly done with this thread, but if you're still peeking, I invite you to come back and explain the 'partial proceeds' thing. I really want to know.

Pinups4DotCom
03-24-2007, 07:09 AM
Partial proceeds mean just that - a PART of the proceeds. Specifically:

TOTAL INCOME (gross sales or donations or whatever)
HARD COSTS (website, printing, distribution, marketing, travel, whatever is required to run the operation that can't be gotten from volunteers)
ARTIST FEE (if models or others demand money, this comes out of it)
OVERHEAD (accounting costs, etc - usually less than 5%, sometimes zero. I gotta be ready for customer/charity/IRS scrutiny and this needs to be arm's length with no "volunteer influence)
DONATION (usually 20% or more of gross...but it depends).

cinammonkisses
03-24-2007, 08:34 AM
I gotta be ready for customer/charity/IRS scrutiny and this needs to be arm's length with no "volunteer influence)


Waht do you mean "no volunteer influence" That's what you've been saying this org is all about. ::) Anyway, you're most definately right, you need to be ready for the IRS cause I have a very strong feeling they are gonna eat your ass alive.

Nautilus
03-24-2007, 05:05 PM
:rotfl:

with a bottle of chianti and some fava beans...

Jenny
03-24-2007, 05:19 PM
Waht do you mean "no volunteer influence" That's what you've been saying this org is all about. ::) Anyway, you're most definately right, you need to be ready for the IRS cause I have a very strong feeling they are gonna eat your ass alive.
When you run a charity or a charitable foundation a third, non-interested party is meant to monitor the books; you don't want volunteers of the charity cooking them.

Kalligirl
03-25-2007, 12:43 AM
he's full of shit.

Cally
03-25-2007, 05:04 AM
Ugh I totally missed the 'portion' part...

Okay now im raising an eyebrow and stepping back...

I still dont agree with Amy though because I think her posts have been pure bitchyness...

And anyone thinkin im crazy for stayin I *MIGHT* work with Pinups.. I wouldnt do it without fully looking into it... dont worry im not that silly :P

My whole rant was just about people saying that no one should do charity work for free ::)

Pinups4DotCom
03-25-2007, 08:20 AM
I have been peeking...Cally's post got me to respond.

Can anyone tell me how to avoid "portion"? If we need to produce and deliver something, and certain costs can't be volunteered or traded out (mailing, etc.) then we have to pay for them. By definition, that means the charity gets a PORTION of the PROCEEDS. Note the word is PROCEEDS not PROFITS. PROFITS are what's left over after expenses are paid - and the charity gets those.

As for the accounting costs - sorry, that's pretty non-negotiable. It's standard nonprofit practice to PAY an accountant for auditing, etc - for exactly the reason stated.

Cally, I'm sorry to disappoint you. Hopefully on reflection you'll realize we're doing the best we can. Certainly (as my radio shows and PSAs have said) - if we can find volunteer printers, shipping companies, etc. it would be great. But sadly we've not gotten such offers yet.

If anyone can help me eliminate all (or even more) of our hard costs, I'm game.

cameronfl
03-25-2007, 09:16 AM
Cant you just say all profits go to charity? Or specify what percentage of the proceeds and why.


and like Cally...my rants were towards people expecting to get paid from charities in general....I admittedly know little about this one specifically

Pinups4DotCom
03-25-2007, 09:27 AM
I don't say all profits (but can change it) because so many companies say this, and donate less than 1% of it to charity. I prefer to be upfront, detail (maybe I can add a math rundown to the site) when asked what the difference between income and donations are.

Ultimately, "all profits" and "a portion of proceeds" mean the same thing.

cameronfl
03-25-2007, 09:42 AM
Ultimately, "all profits" and "a portion of proceeds" mean the same thing.

Not really.."a portion of proceeds" could mean 1 cent is donated....thats a "portion"...ALL profits mean ALL. It means you just pay your hard costs and take no profits for yourselves.

Pinups4DotCom
03-25-2007, 09:45 AM
ok ill change it

scarlett_vancouver
03-25-2007, 10:54 AM
Only change it if it's true!

When you apply for legitimate charitable status, you will have to tell them EXACTLY how much of the PROFITS go to charity. Ideally, it should be 100%. I can't remember if it is like this in the US, but in Canada you can't have more than 20% of net intake go towards admin (incl. salaries). Of course there are a million ways around this but...still.

Don't assume your audience is retarded. A "portion" does NOT equal "all profits"...not by a longshot, as evidenced by the example in my last post. If you want legitimacy, state your numbers (percentages), and be ready to have your books audited (as, in Canada at least, you have to have your financials publicly available for any citizen to look over).

Kaylinn
03-25-2007, 12:10 PM
I would also like to see a list of the charities you have donated to on your site. Or a list of charities that you donate to on a regular basis. Or a running list of how much you have donated to whom.

Pinups4DotCom
03-25-2007, 03:56 PM
I am not a nonprofit, but allow anyone who asks to look at our books. I've stated how we calculate our books, and have said NOTHING that assumes the audience is retarded.

scarlett_vancouver
03-25-2007, 04:15 PM
Ultimately, "all profits" and "a portion of proceeds" mean the same thing.

That is incorrect, and assuming that we'd not know that or would take your word for it is what I was referring to when I said don't assume your audience is retarded.


bottom line: this is a VOLUNTEER effort for everyone -including me.


I am not a nonprofit

So it's not a nonprofit...but you don't get paid. Are you calling it a volunteer effort on your part simply because you haven't turned a profit YET?

cinammonkisses
03-25-2007, 04:20 PM
I am not a nonprofit, but allow anyone who asks to look at our books. I've stated how we calculate our books, and have said NOTHING that assumes the audience is retarded.

I got this from a site that discusses non-profit organizations...

Many nonprofit organizations often use the .org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.org) or .us (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.us) or .edu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.edu) top-level domain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-level_domain) when selecting a domain name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_name) to differentiate themselves from more commercially focused entities which typically use the .com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.com) space.

^^Ummm isn't that how your website ends Mr.Pinups^^ ::)




So it's not a nonprofit...but you don't get paid. Are you calling it a volunteer effort on your part simply because you haven't turned a profit YET?

cinammonkisses
03-25-2007, 04:20 PM
I would also like to see a list of the charities you have donated to on your site. Or a list of charities that you donate to on a regular basis. Or a running list of how much you have donated to whom.

Yes, can you please tell us that???

amylynnej
03-25-2007, 06:36 PM
Some charities arent worth it. Some are. Id gladly donate to legit charities.

Pinups4DotCom
03-26-2007, 12:08 AM
I've donated P4 money to Land Conservation, Animal Rights (shelters and such), Soldiers' Care-package organizations, Red Cross, Salvation Army and a few others. Since we're new the list isn't very huge..but it's growing.

Personally I've donated to hundreds of others, been on the board of two or three, and founded/became employed by one.

Kaylinn
03-26-2007, 04:58 AM
Thats great and all, but what I wanted...was to see an actual list on your website, specific charities, actual proof, not some generalizations.
Not animal rights ( shelters and such) but WHAT animal right organization? what charity? Not Soilders care package organizations. But WHAT Organization? And how much to date have yuo donated to them, specificially?

I mean..If I donated my pictures, time or money somewhere, Id like to know exactly where it went, and how much.

Put a list up on your website of who you have donated to, and how much you have donated to them. Kepp a running total.

If I donate a picture of myself, and you sell it for 39.95 or whatever, I wanna know that more than .02 cents was donated to my charity of choice. I mean, yoru asking models to sign over their copyrighted pictures to you. You can then use them for any purpose you want. If I donated a picture, and signed over my copyrights, I wanna know EXACTLY where thoes pictures are going, and for exactly what purpose, and i wanna be damn sure that they are not going to be used to any other purpose than the one stated. In fact, I would have you sign an agreement before i signed over my copyrights that these pictures were going to be used strictly for charity purposes, and not used for any monitary profit whatso ever. But I wouldnt sign over the rights to my pictures to begin with. I retain complete control over my pictures, what they are used to, and who profits from them. Once a model loses the rights to her images...thats when thoes pictures end up places you dont want them. Like on the covers of porn, on escorting websites....

I dont even know if any of this made sence. Im tired, and thinking out loud.

cinammonkisses
03-26-2007, 06:30 AM
I've donated P4 money to Land Conservation, Animal Rights (shelters and such), Soldiers' Care-package organizations, Red Cross, Salvation Army and a few others. Since we're new the list isn't very huge..but it's growing.

Personally I've donated to hundreds of others, been on the board of two or three, and founded/became employed by one.

I thought the models whose pictures you were using where the ones doing the donating? ::)

Pinups4DotCom
03-26-2007, 08:20 AM
I got this from a site that discusses non-profit organizations...

Many nonprofit organizations often use the .org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.org) or .us (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.us) or .edu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.edu) top-level domain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-level_domain) when selecting a domain name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_name) to differentiate themselves from more commercially focused entities which typically use the .com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.com) space.

^^Ummm isn't that how your website ends Mr.Pinups^^ ::)


Umm..well, MANY nonprofits choose .org, and I do own the .org for the domain. Since we aren't yet a nonprofit, I choose to use the .com to make that clear to everyone.

There is NO LAW requiring .org to be used only for nonprofits and .com only for profits companies...just a pattern. The only ones managed specifically are .edu and .gov (well .state.xx.us as well I guess)

yes, as I said (even in your quote) I'm not yet a nonprofit...though we are working on building a board and locating the financial backer needed to make that process happen. Seems it might be easier to understand if we were - though many companies donate "a portion of proceeds" to charity without this much confusion.

Pinups4DotCom
03-26-2007, 08:26 AM
Thats great and all, but what I wanted...was to see an actual list on your website, specific charities, actual proof, not some generalizations.
Not animal rights ( shelters and such) but WHAT animal right organization? what charity? Not Soilders care package organizations. But WHAT Organization? And how much to date have yuo donated to them, specificially?

First of all, please understand WE"RE JUST GETTING STARTED HERE. I'm trying to do something good, losing money and time in the process, and somehow you feel I should be punished for the attempt. Ludicrous.

I can consider adding that. Consider means (another expense for me) speaking to my attorney to be sure we don't have problems naming charities directly (the charities protect their name use strongly)...most of them receive a check from us with a note explaining the donaation is from the artist - and we don't have formal declarations from their board - that would be too involved and take too much choice away from the artists (we'd have to limit the selected charities, get into debates on which animal charity is good, etc.).

I plan to provide the model a run-down of each donation made as things are sold (on a quarterly basis) - right now those are few and far between because until I get a few dozen more models on the site I'm holding off on promotion.

Again. This is a volunteer program that has good intentions, being run by someone who volunteered six years of their life to good causes. I'm always open to ideas, but please adjust the tone from accusation to construictive criticizm...there's no reason for it.

Pinups4DotCom
03-26-2007, 08:27 AM
I thought the models whose pictures you were using where the ones doing the donating? ::)

Depends on how you look at it....and now we're just playing semantics..., the models get the credit for the donation, and they're donating the image to us for us to do the WORK and underwrite the EXPENSE of marketing it.

Ultimately we're the ones writing the check to the charity, and including a note crediting the artists.

cinammonkisses
03-26-2007, 08:50 AM
Ultimately we're the ones writing the check to the charity, and including a note crediting the artists.

Thus, you're the one getting the tax write-offs...

skoolgirl
03-26-2007, 09:35 AM
I can consider adding that. Consider means (another expense for me) speaking to my attorney to be sure we don't have problems naming charities directly (the charities protect their name use strongly)...most of them receive a check from us with a note explaining the donaation is from the artist - and we don't have formal declarations from their board - that would be too involved and take too much choice away from the artists (we'd have to limit the selected charities, get into debates on which animal charity is good, etc.).


Why would the charities have a problem being named on your site? After all, they don't have a problem receiving a check from you! Hell, I've seen escorts name their favorite charities on their web pages and we all know what they do to earn their income. lol I think a list of the charities would bring credibility to your site, which after reading this thread is badly needed.

Pinups4DotCom
03-26-2007, 11:58 AM
Thus, you're the one getting the tax write-offs...

as we grow, that can change. however there have to be incomes against which to write off.

Kalligirl
03-26-2007, 09:03 PM
So... your basically getting girls to model for free, making a little off it, and donating a little of it?

I saw your models, and ok, this is bitchy: i would not pay $35 bucks for one of their pictures. I wouldn't pay $35 bucks for anyones picture, maybe if it was autographed.

Who the hell is gonna buy these if they don't even know where the moneys going to!?! how many have you even SOLD?

Charities usually use their name to HELP get support. I haven't taken time to read every single post, but have you named any!?! if not: Shaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaady!

Jenny
03-26-2007, 09:25 PM
First of all, please understand WE"RE JUST GETTING STARTED HERE. I'm trying to do something good, losing money and time in the process, and somehow you feel I should be punished for the attempt. Ludicrous.

Whoa! You are asking for something somewhat more "serious" than financial support, and you feel that you don't need credibility? Getting started or not, you need it. You got off on the wrong foot here (maybe!) so you need more (if you are interested in doing business with girls here). And saying "No, I wasn't saying that, that was my friend; I was just asking on his behalf" is BEYOND lame and BEYOND unprofessional.

You are coming here and asking girls to model for you, for free. You claim it is for charity. And you view attempts verify you - attempts that I think are damn generous, since I personally wrote you off in, like, 3 seconds - as punitive?

Jesus Christ - I don't care if you are just getting started. You are here, and you are effectively asking for donations. That means you have to be able to answer our questions adequately. Get yourself together, or don't launch until you are. As a fund raising effort this is disgraceful, un-credible and unprofessional.

Nautilus
03-26-2007, 10:38 PM
Consider means (another expense for me) speaking to my attorney to be sure we don't have problems naming charities directly (the charities protect their name use strongly)....
i presume you don't ask the attorneys to 'donate' their time.::)

mermaidnz
03-27-2007, 12:22 AM
lmfao!!

i cant believe this thread is still going and MR Rip-off-models is still here trying to argue his case!! haha :)

Pinups4DotCom
03-27-2007, 02:10 AM
Someone please define where the rip off is here. If there's money being made, it sure isn't by me.

anyway, as I said...I'm outta here. Going to take your input back to the ad-hoc board and see what they want to do about it.

Actually, yes we do ask attorneys to donate their time - but I haven't found one yet that thought such advice was prudent. Our board chooses to pay for legal and accounting services to maintain an arm's length transaction.

Sorry if i looked "unprofessional" - trying to test some waters, see what people like and don't - I appreciate the input.

Jenny
03-27-2007, 07:21 AM
Accountants need to be arms length. Lawyers can absolutely work pro bono without compromise. I mean legal advice is, by definition, partisan.


I can consider adding that. Consider means (another expense for me) speaking to my attorney to be sure we don't have problems naming charities directly (the charities protect their name use strongly)...most of them receive a check from us with a note explaining the donaation is from the artist - and we don't have formal declarations from their board - that would be too involved and take too much choice away from the artists (we'd have to limit the selected charities, get into debates on
which animal charity is good, etc.).
And just to be clear - you are saying that you are reluctant to tell us where our money/donated time is going? Because the charity that we are donating to might not want us to know? Are you insane?

That is where the anticipated rip off is. You are asking for donated time and money, and not providing any credible explanation on where it is going, and you actually saying that you want us to donate, but need legal advice before telling us what we are donating to. Ergo - rip off. We have your word that you are not making money off of this; strangely enough, as we don't know you that is inadequate. I mean, dude. We're strippers. Even if you think we are absolutely retarded, you must realize that we are not trusting.