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mr_punk
03-22-2007, 02:26 PM
while perusing for news on the latest JM releases when i ran across these two gems (http://www.xxxporntalk.com//ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dvdtalk&Number=218796&Forum=All_Forums&Words=Trophy%20hunting%20aside&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3weeks&Main=218737&Search=true#Post218796). LOL...i'll let them speak for themselves.


Trophy hunting aside, if you are willing to put in the time and the money, case out the local mid-level strip club. Hang out during off-peak hours, be somewhat polite to the talent. Be that non-drug-addicted, non-nose-pierced, non-sleeve-tatted dude that they would never consider for a boyfriend but that they start to trust as a confidant. Pretty soon, you will receive offers for a $200 fuck. No clock watching - hang out at your or her place, smoke some pot, get drunk, watch "Mr Show" on DVD, then a nice GFE fuck, except that she calls you "daddy" more often than a girlfriend should.
Strip Clubs? I go with my pals, but I don't like them. I'm generous with the bills and drinks, and I am actually quite entertained by the bizarre conversations that so many rail about here about their kids, boyfriends, etc., usually ending in cash requests that always get denied. But, I NEVER buy a lap dance. Maybe its the fact that the girl has all the power. Overall I just feel uncomfortable there. Could be reliving the "traumatic" experience at NY Dolls when some goombah was going to hit me for talking to his girlfriend for 20 minutes when she should/could be getting lap dance cash.

Phil-W
03-22-2007, 04:37 PM
mr_p,

I may be being unusually thick today (...serves up opening for sarcastic reply...) but your point is?

Phil.

mr_punk
03-22-2007, 07:37 PM
none..i just found the comments funny.

lunchbox
03-23-2007, 06:54 AM
You should PM that first one to ML :P

Nicolina
03-26-2007, 10:24 AM
I find the comment about the girl having "all the power" interesting. Funny, but that's what my dad once told me he didn't like about stripclubs. (Even though he's not a domineering guy at all. He marched in women's lib rallies in DC back in the day, ferchrissake, pushing me along in a stroller! I guess it's hard to get away from that 1950's upbringing on a gut level, though. Or something. What do you guys think?)

SeppeSai
03-26-2007, 10:33 AM
I was trying to frame the "power struggle" that goes on between dancers and customers for a younger friend of mine the other day and couldn't do it right. Perhaps it's because there's no struggle for me since I'm comfortable with the ATF.

mr_punk
03-29-2007, 06:04 AM
LOL..i was thinking the same thing, "what power?". once upon a time, a favorite waitress decided to switch and become a professonal attention whore. it occured to me that a good waitress was more valuable to me than a stripper because a good waitress is harder to find than a nasty stripper in a whorehouse.

Jenny
03-29-2007, 06:39 AM
professonal attention whore
I think it's cute when you use the term "attention whore." I mean, that's not even the pot calling the kettle black - that's like... the pot calling the kettle a pot.

sander8son
03-29-2007, 04:09 PM
I think it's cute when you use the term "attention whore." I mean, that's not even the pot calling the kettle black - that's like... the pot calling the kettle a pot.


I think its interesting that he called her an "attention" whore instead of just a "whore" like she is. and just as interesting that you jumped on him for the attention part.

xdamage
03-29-2007, 04:14 PM
Regarding they have all the power... I just don't see it. In this case I'd say if a customer feels this way, it's all in their heads. The customer has the power to spend or not spend as he/she chooses. The dancer has the power sell or not sell as he/she chooses. Seems entirely equal to me. It would be different if someone was forcing someone to do something they didn't want to do; then I could see a power struggle, but in the strip club it just looks like a mutual exchange to me.

Nicolina
03-29-2007, 11:06 PM
^I don't know. I think the girls more than the guys call the shots in a strip club.

Sure we'll be charming little cockgrinders for the paying customer, but if he gets out of line, his fun is over. You can certainly look for a girl whose boundaries jibe with your desires, and you may well find one, BUT, you don't get to decide an individual dancers' boundaries.

I think a SC is one of the few businesses in which the customer is not always right. In my experience, bouncers and managers tend to err on the side of appeasing the dancer rather than the customer when disputes between the two arise. Which is kind of an interesting phenomenon, actually.

GenWar
03-30-2007, 05:21 AM
I think a SC is one of the few businesses in which the customer is not always right.

I don't think that it is all that uncommon for the customer to be wrong. I have this argument with my staff ALL the time. A relationship with a customer is a partnership in which both sides should come out ahead for the engagement. It is not about a Master-Slave relationship or giving the customer whatever he/she wants as long as the money is flowing.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to apply a standard of reasonableness and logic to dealing with a customer. In most examples, that standard is based on safety or legality (for example, a commercial airline isn't going to let you ride in the cockpit, no matter how much you pay or complain about their service.) The thing about clubs is that, it is SO easy for the customer's desires to go outside the reasonable services of the club, specifically because the whole point is to flirt with the service that is not provided...sex. Add to that the odd scenario in which a diligent and monied customer can actually GET the forbidden service and the whole expectations/understanding thing becomes a big mess.

So, really, in my experience, the customer is only right in the specific boundaries established by the engagement, either explicit or implicit. Which is to say...rarely.

-gen

xdamage
03-30-2007, 08:09 AM
I suppose you have a point.

Things are a bit different in the SC because the product being sold is oneself vs a thing or labor, but in practice the customer is never always right. Sometimes a customer get's their money back (and we've done it if we can't satisfy the customer), but customers often don't get everything they want either. Somethings are for sale for a certain price, some not. The customer can demand more than what is for sale (be it at a restaurant, when buying a thing, paying for labor, etc.) but in all cases there comes a point where the seller can and will say nope, you want too much, or what you want is illegal, immoral, unethical, or just not a good deal for me, and I won't do it.

What is probably true is that as a dancer, you have the right to choose not to sell at all over some things that would be considered bad practice in other businesses. Many businesses claim this same right, the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, but in practice all customers are treated relatively equally; a certain service or good costs $$s, and they won't turn away a customer for say, looking at the seller funny or having body odor. A dancer on the other hand may well say forget it, it's not worth $20 - that guy's face just creeps me out.

I guess beyond that though, for the most part our sense of power is often as much in our heads as in reality. We have lot of freedoms. I have the freedom to not spend any money at a SC, or to turn a dancer down no matter what the price or what she will do, or to even ask for my money back if I felt I was ripped off (hasn't happened yet). Since most of what I want is within the realm of what is considered normal for the asking price, there is no power struggle for me. Now if I asked her to do something illegal or uncomfortable for her, of course she has the power to say no. But then so does the restaurant if I ask they bring me two lobsters for the price of one. That's not the deal. if they want to feel like they have the ultimate power in the situation, that's great, if it makes them feel better that it's a power struggle and they win, cool.

p.s. so basically yea, what Gen said also jives with how I tend to look at the customer/seller relationship in general.

SportsWriter2
03-30-2007, 09:47 AM
You can certainly look for a girl whose boundaries jibe with your desires, and you may well find one, BUT, you don't get to decide an individual dancers' boundaries.

Have you ever thought about the topology of dancer boundaries? Like when a "good girl" gets buzzed and you start pulling her hair. How would you draw that boundary in 2D? Or in 3D? Or with time as the fourth dimension? Think about it some night before a big bio exam. :-\

lunchbox
03-30-2007, 12:14 PM
Ahh, the old Booze Time continuum... Not to be confused with Bose Einstein condensation.

I know it's a stretch, but I'm trying hard to avoid doing any actual work today.

mr_punk
03-30-2007, 06:34 PM
I think its interesting that he called her an "attention" whore instead of just a "whore" like she is.oh, i may not have said it, sandy. however, you can rest assured that i thought it.

and just as interesting that you jumped on him for the attention part.isn't she just precious? anyway, she's just down here for a bowl of frosted, attention whore flakes. one would think between the stripping and female empowerment. it would provide her with all the nutritional attention she needs for a full day of moderation. i guess not.

mr_punk
03-30-2007, 06:50 PM
^I don't know. I think the girls more than the guys call the shots in a strip club. Sure we'll be charming little cockgrinders for the paying customer, but if he gets out of line, his fun is over.if anything, it sounds like a wash to me. strippers don't dictate the manner in which i spend my money. if they did. i would be buying convo and air dances. i think customers who buy into this whole, "she has all the power" stuff is probably the kind of customer that tends to settle.

You can certainly look for a girl whose boundaries jibe with your desires, and you may well find one, BUT, you don't get to decide an individual dancers' boundaries.yes! you go grrls! empower yourselves! why, it's just like when a customer walks into a whorehouse and a stripper says, "i'll suck you to completion, but i don't swallow". that's right, mister man is just to have to sit there and take it. she is woman, hear her blow...uh..roar.

I think a SC is one of the few businesses in which the customer is not always right. In my experience, bouncers and managers tend to err on the side of appeasing the dancer rather than the customer when disputes between the two arise. Which is kind of an interesting phenomenon, actually.ok, let's give a big round of applause to those paragons of virtue....the sc manager. but hey, i can't complain. those same weaselly qualities are the same qualities that allow them to turn a blind eye when a stripper's head is bobbing up and down in a customer's lap like a piston. shit, i'm just surprised they aren't charging you girls a buck per cocktail napkin.

if they want to feel like they have the ultimate power in the situation, that's great, if it makes them feel better that it's a power struggle and they win, cool.sure. i don't care what kind of coping mechanism, motivational tool, lucky charm or drug a stripper needs, just as long as she is delivering the goods.

evan_essence
04-01-2007, 12:18 AM
she's just down here for a bowl of frosted, attention whore flakes.Aren't we all.

-Ev

Nicolina
04-01-2007, 01:52 PM
if anything, it sounds like a wash to me. strippers don't dictate the manner in which i spend my money. if they did. i would be buying convo and air dances.

Not all dancers want to sell convo and air dances, tho...personally, I just wanted to do nasty dances--I couldn't stand customers who "just wanted to talk" (oh god, shoot me now), and I found air dances deathly boring to perform. So there you go. I liked grinding on cock.

All I'm trying to say is that I never actually felt compelled to do things that I didn't want to do in a SC. There were clubs where I felt that I'd be expected to do things I didn't want to do, but I just didn't work in those clubs once I figured out that they weren't right for me.

I think a lot of people outside the industry assume that dancers are often feeling coerced or manipulated; I never did.


i think customers who buy into this whole, "she has all the power" stuff is probably the kind of customer that tends to settle.

probably so. I admit that my dad is not the type who’d pressure a stripper to cross her boundaries. He absolutely despises coming off as high-maintenance or demanding to service personnel. He’d eat poisoned food before he’d send anything back to a kitchen. So yes, you may have a point there.


yes! you go grrls! empower yourselves! why, it's just like when a customer walks into a whorehouse and a stripper says, "i'll suck you to completion, but i don't swallow". that's right, mister man is just to have to sit there and take it. she is woman, hear her blow...uh..roar.

I know that you deal with a particular brand of "dancer" for whom the dancing part of the job is rather perfunctory. That’s lovely that you can find prostitutes to satisfy your sexual needs in stripclubs, but the fact remains that you are finding women whose boundaries—for whatever reason—coincide with your desires. I’m sure you have found that there do exist women who simply won’t provide the services you seek. Which is all good and well, since there are customers like JZ and GenWar and TOO in the world, who desire an entirely different sort of SC experience than you do.

There’s a common perception among the uninitiated that stripclubs are full of hot-but-desperate, half-naked tragic women who are willing to do anything a customer requests, no questions asked, due to low self-esteem or poor moral upbringing or whatever. It’s a fantasy for some folks, I imagine—and I suppose it could be disappointing for those guys to discover that actually the clubs are full of women who will shove a six-inch heel in your groin if you touch her the wrong way.



ok, let's give a big round of applause to those paragons of virtue....the sc manager. but hey, i can't complain. those same weaselly qualities are the same qualities that allow them to turn a blind eye when a stripper's head is bobbing up and down in a customer's lap like a piston. shit, i'm just surprised they aren't charging you girls a buck per cocktail napkin.

Well, my point was that, despite the fact that most SC managers are the antithesis of what you might call “paragons of virtue,” and many of them hold very low opinions of dancers in general, they still tend to side with dancers in any dancer-customer dispute.

I think this can also be surprising to inexperienced customers, who figure that the rules of the “real world” apply—i.e., “If it’s my word against the word of some chick who is obviously a slut/whore, my word will be taken over hers every time.” In the SC, it usually doesn’t work that way.

mr_punk
04-01-2007, 04:05 PM
All I'm trying to say is that I never actually felt compelled to do things that I didn't want to do in a SC. There were clubs where I felt that I'd be expected to do things I didn't want to do, but I just didn't work in those clubs once I figured out that they weren't right for me.okay, but all that means is that you don't get a dime of my money and i don't get any mileage. like i said, it sounds like a wash.

I know that you deal with a particular brand of "dancer" for whom the dancing part of the job is rather perfunctory. That’s lovely that you can find prostitutes to satisfy your sexual needs in stripclubs, but the fact remains that you are finding women whose boundaries—for whatever reason—coincide with your desires.uhhh, yeah...whorehouse! as a matter of fact, why do you think i go to whorehouses instead of some lame sc? you see, a lot of guys will waste their time, but not me. sorry, but i don't have time to fuck around, fighting with some air dancer over whether or not i can touch her ankle. but hey, it's like i said, some guys will settle.

It’s a fantasy for some folks, I imagine—and I suppose it could be disappointing for those guys to discover that actually the clubs are full of women who will shove a six-inch heel in your groin if you touch her the wrong way.only to the people who walk into some of these places and think "classy and upscale" when they see the wine list and marble floors. in reality, it's a whorehouse, albeit an classy and upscale looking whorehouse.

Well, my point was that, despite the fact that most SC managers are the antithesis of what you might call “paragons of virtue,” and many of them hold very low opinions of dancers in general, they still tend to side with dancers in any dancer-customer dispute.and i didn't disagree with you. i'm just saying that i wouldn't act drunk with power and hold them up as the "good guys" under any circumstances. but hey, you're the stripper. so, you broads can reflect back on this instance and think kindly of them when they fine you and raise your stage fees. you go grrls!

Jenny
04-01-2007, 04:09 PM
you go grrls!Honey - it's three r's, not two. Nicolina is a "Grrrl"; Baby Spice is a "grrl". If you want to use the vernacular - get it right.

mr_punk
04-01-2007, 04:29 PM
oh, two r's is now passe to the movement. i swear, you need a scorecard to keep up with feminists these days.

Jenny
04-01-2007, 04:35 PM
Dude! I mean, Dude! Come on! two r's? TWO R'S? Was always wrong.
Always. 3 r's = Bif Naked. 2 r's = Xtina Aguilera. The two r's was an amputation of "grrrl power". For real, man.

Nicolina
04-01-2007, 06:24 PM
Have you ever thought about the topology of dancer boundaries? Like when a "good girl" gets buzzed and you start pulling her hair. How would you draw that boundary in 2D? Or in 3D? Or with time as the fourth dimension? Think about it some night before a big bio exam. :-\

Yikes, no way...Topology is way too hard for my brain. We touched on it briefly in a GIS class...but now that I got through Calc II and advanced biostats, no more math for me! (Vaguely sad, since calc II is where math kinda starts to get interesting...)

Anyway, if you pull her hair and she likes it, she isn't really a "good girl." :P

mr_punk
04-02-2007, 05:09 AM
sigh...well, there you go.

GenWar
04-02-2007, 07:39 AM
^^ AARRRGH!

Someone JUST used continually when they meant continuously. I swear, you guys started it.

Haven't had that much exposure to the impact one? I mean, how do you use it as a verb often?

-gen

Jenny
04-02-2007, 07:56 AM
I actually disagree on "impact". I think by this time it is very safe to use it as a verb. Continually and continuously - is this really such a problem? I mean even The Columbia Guide to Standard American English (http://www.bartleby.com/68/85/1485.html) says that they are pretty much interchangeable.

One of my pet peeves about this, is how people try to make normal everyday communication all esoteric and use errors so common that they have become standard use as a reason to feel all superior to the hoi polloi. Even though - I totally do it. I just never notice how obnoxious it is until SOMEONE ELSE is doing it.

How do you properly use the phrase "beg the question" anyway?

xdamage
04-02-2007, 08:31 AM
I spent many years working with mentally ill people who had a lot of trouble expressing themselves, and now working in the computer field where I'm regularly switching between communicating with colleagues of varying levels of technical knowledge, and customers (often over email, support forums, or over phones) who don't know our terminology.

Bottom line is I'm more interested in what people are saying then in what words they use to say it. I admit I've become very sloppy myself over the years as a result.

GenWar
04-02-2007, 09:26 AM
One of my pet peeves about this, is how people try to make normal everyday communication all esoteric and use errors so common that they have become standard use as a reason to feel all superior to the hoi polloi. Even though - I totally do it. I just never notice how obnoxious it is until SOMEONE ELSE is doing it.

I never know when Jenny is just pulling my leg or when she is being serious...

Still, IMHO, correct is correct. The language should not change simply because misuse is common. Adding "irregardless" to the dictionary, for example, is ridiculous. Continual errosion of grammatical rules is not, in the greater scheme of things, a big deal. However, it is characteristic of the general decline of the US. It is not a problem, it is a symptom. And a scary one, at that.

-gen

Jenny
04-02-2007, 10:11 AM
Okay there is the kind of common usage that makes nouns verbs, and there is simply wrong words. I'm not suggesting that malapropisms should be made... propisms? just because they are common; however once "contact" wasn't a verb either. There comes a point where insisting on "correctness" (I think "impact" falls in here) in the face of all normal and even standard use is just... well, like I said.

Gen - I agree that irregardless is ridiculous, but that is because it doesn't make sense. I think there is a difference between language being encompassing and language being flattened (I had this conversation with a prof in college who corrected my use of the word "incredible". Loved her). Flattened (like with irregardless) is, you know, bad. Encompassing - using words from other languages, dropping pointless rules (split infinitives, anyone?), and allowing number variations for the purpose to genderless reference, and yes, even verbifying nouns is good.

Although - and really, you know I hate admitting that I have flaws - I do feel a little teeny rush of superiority every time I notice someone use the word "regime" for "regimen".

evan_essence
04-02-2007, 05:54 PM
In light of mr_punk's characterizations of strippers, I'd personally like to see the word whoremonger applied continuously to our junkies, instead of PL or customer.

-Ev

GenWar
04-02-2007, 06:48 PM
Hi, Gen.
Hi Nic. ;)



I still hate 'impact' as a transitive verb!!!! Gen, this is where people say "The hurricane warning impacted our lapdance sales that night." Ugh. It's so horrible!

Oh..like a shorten of "had an impact". Yeah...I can see it. More Verbal Evolution, though, eh? :O




This is a common perception, and I can see that the prescriptive grammarians have gotten hold of you. But any linguist will tell you that JZ is right in the sense that you cannot escape language change, no matter how you may try. My inner Elitist Snob does not approve, but there is nothing to be done.... (Not that I'm calling anyone here an elitist snob! So don't get your undies in a bunch! :P)

Spoken language tends to change more rapidly than written language, and I do agree that the written form should be held to higher standards, just for the sake of clarity. Written communication is far more effective if those who write can all agree on certain conventions.


Ok...ok...Nic/JZ...I will face evolution. I am not afraid of change. (Usually.) Yes, the language must change and become new. And clinging to the old ways is a sign of closed-mindedness.

But, I also see erosian. I speak with my family (educated southern African American professionals), I speak with my employees (middle-class, middle-aged white North Easterners) and I speak with my friends (racially diverse, uneducated young (18-24 yr old) men) and I see NO ONE with any level of dedication to any form of communication structure. For God's Sake, read the Mexican's latest blog (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=19801861&blogID=244290848&MyToken=3fe126c5-da7f-4ff0-a1f9-df793c6188fd)to see an extreme example. He actually TALKS like that, as well.

I don't want to be an elitist. (I am as imperfect as the next guy. See if you can find the typo in my comment on the Mexican's Blog. :P ) I also don't want to be the conservative voice in a sea of necessary change. But, sometime during those long, painful afternoons as a child where my mom made me sit and do the "Word Power" exercises in the Reader's Digest, I developed a love for this messed up, chaotic, rebel language of ours and I feel pain to see it becoming less than it has been, can be and should be...with no apparent counterbalancing positive gains. Does that make me stuck up? Maybe...but I can't help but feel like we are not on a good path here. *shrug* Just can't help it...



But again, all of this language change is inevitable and inescapable. Though it may seem to us elitist snobs (and I am using that phrase strictly as a term of endearment now) to be degradation or decline, it is actually neutral evolution.

Is it? That's some of it...sure...but I think it is worse that that. Truly.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm late to join mr_punk in wearing the double sandwich boards that read "The end is near..." on one side and "this is a whorehouse..." on the other side. We'll be in front of Fritz Too in Anaheim, CA. Stop by and see us. ;D

-gen

The Snark
04-03-2007, 04:57 AM
I'd be the first to admit that "proper English" is a social convention, loaded with all kinds of class bias, and subject to constant change. I'd also be willing to admit that good fashion sense is an equally mutable convention that's also tainted with a measure of elitism. But that doesn't stop me from feeling with a mixture of admiration and lust when I see a woman sport a scarf or a pair of fuck-me boots with flair and panache. By the same token, if I wear a pair of white pants after Labour Day I expect at least one person to tell me that I've broken a rule.

Language, like fashion, is an essential part of the way we present ourselves in public--it's a fundamental expression of our creativity, our social background, and our taste. Criticizing or admiring the way people speak is entirely fair game--in the same way that I piss myself with laughter when the girls at gofugyourself.com (http://gofugyourself.typepad.com/)deconstruct the fashion disaster of some B-list celebrity and don't feel guilty afterward.

To denounce "correct" usage because it is "prescriptivist" strikes me as a kind of cultural Stalinism that banishes all judgments of taste--merely because they are subjective, elitist or because they're based on rules that are subject to change. Like GenWar, I know that my linguistic judgments are based on my own social background, but I'm not going to apologize for making them.



How do you properly use the phrase "beg the question" anyway?
To "beg the question" does not mean "to raise the question". It means that you presume the answer to the problem you're posing--in short, that you are engaging in circular reasoning. To give you an example:

Me: JZ admires Nicolina because he holds her in high esteem.
Jenny: You're begging the question, you pompous, phallocentric piece of shit. Why does he admire her? Is it because she knows the difference between "jive" and "jibe"?

GenWar
04-03-2007, 05:57 AM
Why does he admire her? Is it because she knows the difference between "jive" and "jibe"?

Ostensibly. However, I suspect it is something more primal. }:D

Which, given that they haven't, as far as I know, ever met, is quite a testiment to her linguistic skills. That's some pretty impressive written communication.

Sorry, I couldn't resist...:P

-gen

Jenny
04-03-2007, 06:58 AM
But that doesn't stop me from feeling with a mixture of admiration and lust when I see a woman sport a scarf or a pair of fuck-me boots with flair and panache. By the same token, if I wear a pair of white pants after Labour Day I expect at least one person to tell me that I've broken a rule.
Well, if it makes you question these assumptions at all, according to "What Not To Wear" you are officially allowed to wear white any time of the year you damn well please. But really - you don't find that comparison to be a little inapt? Like, people may accept fashion as something more related to personal taste than language. Look at it this way - maybe instead of determining unilaterally that everybody (or most people) are wrong because they wear white shoes after labour day, or because they use "contact" as a verb when in 1700 it was not, there should have to be a reason they are wrong; like maybe there should have to some compelling case on why "impact" can't be a verb (because, really, I'm not just willing to give it up), or why "irregardless" shouldn't be added to the dictionary, and why you can't split and infinitive. If there is no compelling reason, maybe y'all are just standing in the ocean cursing the rain?


To "beg the question" does not mean "to raise the question". It means that you presume the answer to the problem you're posing--in short, that you are engaging in circular reasoning. To give you an example:

Me: JZ admires Nicolina because he holds her in high esteem.
Jenny: You're begging the question, you pompous, phallocentric piece of shit. Why does he admire her? Is it because she knows the difference between "jive" and "jibe"?
Thank you. Although I question your dialogue - I mean I think you have you down, but that doesn't sound like me at all.

SportsWriter2
04-03-2007, 07:31 AM
I think you have you down, but that doesn't sound like me at all.

True. I have paid close attention to your writing since promising Doc a Jennyesque lecture if he finished last in March Madness. Fortunately for me, Mr. Punk finished last, and he already has scores of real Jenny lectures.

xdamage
04-03-2007, 08:32 AM
To denounce "correct" usage because it is "prescriptivist" strikes me as a kind of cultural Stalinism that banishes all judgments of taste--merely because they are subjective, elitist or because they're based on rules that are subject to change. Like GenWar, I know that my linguistic judgments are based on my own social background, but I'm not going to apologize for making them.


I would say it's not an either or choice, and no apology is needed.

It's to be expected that some people value language with a passion, some do not. The same with pretty much everything else in life. Not all people share the same passions, or same sense of what is important. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your view, or passions. My comment was more along the lines of no matter how strong your passion, things change, other people have their own priorities, and chances are we will see significant language changes over the course of our life and NOTHING will stop it.

Of course I do think it's useful to maintain some sense of perspective. In the big picture view of things if words and phrases change, does it really matter as long as people understand each other? To me it doesn't. Some language issues that bother other people are no more important to me than preferring baggy jeans over tight fitting jean. On the other hand there are things I have passions over that others see no value in. That of course is what makes the world such an amazing place. There are simply too much to be learned and to far too much to be passionate about for any one person to grasp.

The Snark
04-03-2007, 10:09 AM
It's not like I go around correcting people's grammar. Nor do I criticize their fashion choices to their faces. But I'd be lying if I said these things didn't impact on... umm, have an impact on how I perceived them. I mean, if someone like Derek makes a post that is filled with spelling errors, sloppy grammar, text message expressions like "U R", and references to grown women as "gals", do you honestly take him as seriously as you would if he wrote elegantly and with "correct" English?

Obviously, some people take language--or fashion--a lot more seriously than others. For some people language is just a tool of communication, and for others clothes are merely something that keeps you warm. But both language and fashion are governed by a set of rules--a set of changing, subjective, slippery rules--and when people violate these rules, it inevitably changes the way others see them. So, no, I don't think I'm cursing at the rain.


I question your dialogue - I mean I think you have you down, but that doesn't sound like me at all.
Thanks for proving my point: the way you use language is not just a matter of utilitarian convenience--it's fundamental to how you present yourself to others.

xdamage
04-03-2007, 12:28 PM
It's not like I go around correcting people's grammar. Nor do I criticize their fashion choices to their faces. But I'd be lying if I said these things didn't impact on... umm, have an impact on how I perceived them. I mean, if someone like Derek makes a post that is filled with spelling errors, sloppy grammar, text message expressions like "U R", and references to grown women as "gals", do you honestly take him as seriously as you would if he wrote elegantly and with "correct" English?
.... But both language and fashion are governed by a set of rules--a set of changing, subjective, slippery rules--and when people violate these rules, it inevitably changes the way others see them. So, no, I don't think I'm cursing at the rain.


You have a very valid point regarding how seriously I initially take the individual.

I weigh it of course, and it does affect my initial impression, but it seems to matter to me less and less as I grow older. In part because I've become lazy myself. In part because I've met some amazing people along the way that didn't have the best grammar, but still had a lot of class or views that impressed me or taught me something new.

The internet is further complicated by it's own forms of style and rules. The use of emoticons, net abbreviations, elite (aka. l33t), and the no-punctuation format has become it's own language variant. It's almost considered stylish to avoid caps, punctuation, and spell phonetically. Possibly these people who use these Internet forms use standard English when writing letters, or emails in a business setting?

I want to be clear that it's actually a very good thing that there are people who are passionate about the language. Without that to balance out the other extremes, it would change faster ;)

mr_punk
04-05-2007, 05:57 AM
But I'd be lying if I said these things didn't impact on... umm, have an impact on how I perceived them. I mean, if someone like Derek makes a post that is filled with spelling errors, sloppy grammar, text message expressions like "U R", and references to grown women as "gals", do you honestly take him as seriously as you would if he wrote elegantly and with "correct" English?let's see, kat frequently uses "boys" in reference to grown men. hell, even DC uses "gals" and he's not even a Texan (i think). but hey, i understand. it's like my daddy always told me,"there's something real funny about them canadian boys".

In light of mr_punk's characterizations of strippers, I'd personally like to see the word whoremonger applied continuously to our junkies, instead of PL or customer.hmmmm....done! besides, it does have more of a ring to it than strippermonger.

The Snark
04-05-2007, 05:41 PM
Now, punk, you and I both know that the correct term is "biatches".

Phil-W
04-06-2007, 05:20 AM
Speaking as a Brit, can we have our language (that's why it's called ENGLISH) back from you Yanks? }:D

I mean it's harbour for christsakes, not harbor. And waggon has two 'g's in it.

More seriously, if anyone has the time to read it, there's an interesting book by Melvyn Bragg called 'The Adventure of English' which is how English evolved down the centuries.

English is a language that has borrowed heavily from many languages/cultures it has come into contact with over the millenia - Latin, Norse, French, old German, old Dutch, Gulley (the languge of the slaves being brought over to America) the varying dialects of India (from the days of the Raj), and is now being influenced by the Internet and text messages (c u l8r).

For all its idiosyncrasies, I think English is being driven into a identikit mould by globalisation - the wider TV and the Internet spread, the more people get exposed to 'standard' English.

And thus "irregardless" will creep into our lives.

Phil.

GenWar
04-06-2007, 05:26 AM
Bah. I always thought we called it English as a polite nod to the originators, not as an acknowledgement of any ownership.

I had a conference call with a trainer who we are thinking of hiring to do some instructing. She is based in England and one topic of conversation regarding using her WAS the language barrier. During the 30 minute conference call, I both made and saw numerous confused and questioning looks/expressions. She was HARD to understand. She had a heavy accent. You had to focus to get what she was saying. I just found it funny given that we are speaking the "same" language.

-gen

Nicolina
04-06-2007, 09:59 AM
Hey, if we're recommending language books, can I put in a plug for Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct?

Everyone should read it. He's a neurolinguist at MIT and the book addresses everything we've talked about here and much more.

Phil-W
04-06-2007, 12:59 PM
I had a conference call with a trainer who we are thinking of hiring to do some instructing. She is based in England and one topic of conversation regarding using her WAS the language barrier. During the 30 minute conference call, I both made and saw numerous confused and questioning looks/expressions. She was HARD to understand. She had a heavy accent. You had to focus to get what she was saying. I just found it funny given that we are speaking the "same" language.

-gen

In the UK there were very pronounced variations in accents (even over a 20 - 30 mile distance) until the coming of the railways, say from 1830 on.

For the first time ever, they gave a large part of the population potential social/employment mobility. People started to go to work 20 miles away from where they lived, and sometimes to move house that distance as well.

As people started to move about more, accents started to blur.

Even now though, there are pronounced regional accents in the UK - try understanding someone that comes from some parts of Scotland or Wales if you don't live there.

There were also differences between American English and English English - but those differences have been gradually being smoothed out by the ever wider availability of television - say from the 60's onwards.

Phil.


Phil.

xdamage
04-06-2007, 01:01 PM
Hey, if we're recommending language books, can I put in a plug for Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct?


Yep, it's another book that I can't recommend enough.

Kali Doom
04-10-2007, 10:22 PM
I like impaction. Like ear wax. That's fun.

lestat1
04-15-2007, 09:51 PM
Here's where a divide emerges between the 'communications people' and the 'English/grammar people.' To me being understood by my audience is more important than proper grammar. If two little words work just as well as one big word, I'll use the two little words and reach a wider audience. I hear or read too often those who take the other approach and end up using large words inappropriately, which then just makes me think they're a pretentious ass. I come from a communications background, in case you couldn't tell by now. ;)

So we've added 'huge' to the dictionary. People know what it means and when someone uses it, they're effectively communicating what they mean. Oh well, life goes on. I'm usually not too bothered by that sort of thing, although I have to bite my tongue when I hear: "I could care less." If that one gets too popular, people are going to start getting confused when someone uses the proper phrase. :P

The smartest person on the planet who can't communicate their thoughts to another person may as well be a retard, for all it matters.