View Full Version : PETA-Bullsh*t?
OK first, the alf is saying if you burn a place down and no one gets hurt then you can claim it was alf? That is EXACTLY my point. You are a fool if you think none of their fires have caused a death.
What people are missing is that both ALF and PETA do infact say working dogs are bad. Weather you as supporters agree with that or not doesnt matter. That is what the group you give money to has said. The 25 grand was not a loan, so please dont try that, prove it if you want otherwise dont begin. If PETA gave the ALF ONE PENNY they supported them. Infact they handed over atleast 25 grand that can be traced. So many people that support the ALF and PETA have pets. DONT YOU GET IT? You support a group that specificaly says what you do is wrong. Find an animal rights group that is closer to what you believe in if you want to give out money. Giving out money includes buying shirts and other stuff. Setting fires to buildings to make your point IS TERRORISM. Make your points in a legal fashion or shut the fuck up. No matter how you look at it SETTING A FIRE IS ARSON. Attacking buildings and companies is TERRORISM. WTF is wrong that people dont understand that.
Dottie Rebel
04-19-2007, 09:13 PM
^^^
No, sir: YOU don't get it. From PETA's website:
“Does PETA believe that people shouldn’t have pets?”
The earliest fossils that resemble the bones of modern dogs are about 12,000 years old, so we know that humans’ fascination with domesticated wolves began at least that long ago. About 5,000 years ago, Egyptians became the first to tame cats, whom they used to control the rodent population. Since then, the breeding and care of cats and dogs has exploded into a love affair, a sport, and a booming business. This international pastime has created an overpopulation crisis, and as a result, every year, millions of unwanted animals suffer at the hands of abusers, languish in shelters, and are euthanized. Adopting a cat or dog from a shelter and providing a loving home is a small but powerful way to prevent some of this suffering. The most important thing that animal guardians can do is to spay or neuter their animals and avoid buying animals from breeders or pet stores, which contribute to the overpopulation crisis.
Incidentally, one does not need to agree 1000% with an organization to be a supporter. What organization do you support that you agree 1000% about every stance they take and every action they or anyone affiliated with them has ever done? That seems absurd to me.
Dottie Rebel
04-19-2007, 09:15 PM
The 25 grand was not a loan, so please dont try that, prove it if you want otherwise dont begin.
you prove it or don't begin! I am not trying to be snarky or argumentative here, simple pointing out a bit of self-righteous hypocrisy. You are the on who suggested that PETA gave "huge" amounts of money to terrorists. Please prove that or drop it.
Lysondra
04-19-2007, 09:30 PM
^^^
No, sir: YOU don't get it. From PETA's website:
“Does PETA believe that people shouldn’t have pets?”
The earliest fossils that resemble the bones of modern dogs are about 12,000 years old, so we know that humans’ fascination with domesticated wolves began at least that long ago. About 5,000 years ago, Egyptians became the first to tame cats, whom they used to control the rodent population. Since then, the breeding and care of cats and dogs has exploded into a love affair, a sport, and a booming business. This international pastime has created an overpopulation crisis, and as a result, every year, millions of unwanted animals suffer at the hands of abusers, languish in shelters, and are euthanized. Adopting a cat or dog from a shelter and providing a loving home is a small but powerful way to prevent some of this suffering. The most important thing that animal guardians can do is to spay or neuter their animals and avoid buying animals from breeders or pet stores, which contribute to the overpopulation crisis.
Incidentally, one does not need to agree 1000% with an organization to be a supporter. What organization do you support that you agree 1000% about every stance they take and every action they or anyone affiliated with them has ever done? That seems absurd to me.
I love how that didn't really answer the question.
I love how that didn't really answer the question.
Thanks for catching that so fast. It most certainly did NOT answer the question. Great job of skating around an answer they know is un popular.
If you watch the video Penn and Teller prove it for me :)
Edit, I noticed the video link provided is no where near the full episode so I dont know if they prove it in this clip or not. I think a lot of PETA lovers should watch the whole episode. They stick to the facts. I am going to watch the full episode again tonight to remember all that is said since I havent seen it for a bit
ArmySGT.
04-19-2007, 09:40 PM
Iposted the link for this article earlier. Apparently no one read it. Since it is relevant to the last eight or so posts.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
501 Front Street, Norfolk, VA 23510
Phone 757-622-7382 | Fax 757-622-0457 | Email
[email protected]
Black Eye
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals provides aid and comfort for the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and the Animal Liberation Front (ALF). The two groups are responsible for more than 600 crimes since 1996, causing (by a very conservative FBI estimate) more than $43 million in damage. ALF’s “press office” brags that in 2002, the two groups committed “100 illegal direct actions” -- like blowing up SUVs, destroying the brakes on seafood delivery trucks, and planting firebombs in restaurants.
The FBI calls ALF and ELF the nation’s “most serious domestic terrorism threat.” Bruce Friedrich, PETA’s “vegan campaign director” and third-in-command, didn’t seem to care when he addressed the Animal Rights 2001 convention in Virginia, telling a crowd of over 1,000 activists that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation.”
“It would be great,” he added, “if all the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow.”
PETA’s connections to ALF and ELF are indisputable. “We did it, we did it. We gave $1,500 to the ELF for a specific program,” PETA’s Lisa Lange admitted on the Fox News Channel. PETA has offered no fewer than eight different explanations of what the “specific program” was, but law enforcement leaders have noted that since the Earth Liberation Front is a criminal enterprise, it has absolutely no legal “programs” of any kind.
For instance, in 2003, ELF set fire to an unfinished, 200 unit condominium complex near San Diego. The arson caused $50 million in damage, and according to a San Diego Fire Captain: “It could have killed someone.” ELF left its calling card in the form of a twelve foot sign that read: “If you build it -- we will burn it -- the ELF’s are mad.”
PETA also has given $2,000 to David Wilson, then a national ALF “spokesperson.” The group paid $27,000 for the legal defense of Roger Troen, who was arrested for taking part in an October 1986 burglary and arson at the University of Oregon. It gave $7,500 to Fran Stephanie Trutt, who tried to murder the president of a medical laboratory. It gave $5,000 to Josh Harper, who attacked Native Americans on a whale hunt by throwing smoke bombs, shooting flares, and spraying their faces with chemical fire extinguishers. All of these monies were paid out of tax-exempt funds, the same pot of money constantly enlarged by donations from an unsuspecting general public.
PETA president Ingrid Newkirk is also an acknowledged financial supporter of a publication called No Compromise. This periodical operates on behalf of the radicals of ALF, and often publishes underground “communiqués” and calls to arms from ALF leaders.
Most ominously, PETA president Ingrid Newkirk was involved in the multi-million-dollar arson at Michigan State University that resulted in a 57-month prison term for Animal Liberation Front bomber Rodney Coronado. At Coronado’s sentencing hearing, U.S. Attorney Michael Dettmer said that PETA’s Ingrid Newkirk arranged ahead of time to have Coronado send her a pair of FedEx packages from Michigan -- one on the day before he burned the lab down, and the other shortly afterward.
The first FedEx, according to the Sentencing Memorandum, was delivered to a woman named Maria Blanton, “a longtime PETA member who had agreed to accept the first Federal Express package from Coronado after being asked to do so by Ingrid Newkirk.” The FBI intercepted the second package, which had been sent to the same address. It contained documents that Coronado stole before lighting his firebombs, as well as “a videotape of the perpetrator of the MSU crime, disguised in a ski mask.” Since Coronado was convicted of the arson, we now know that he himself was that masked man. “Significantly,” wrote U.S. Attorney Dettmer, “Newkirk had arranged to have the package[s] delivered to her days before the MSU arson occurred.” (emphasis in the original)
A search warrant executed at Blanton’s home turned up evidence that PETA’s other co-founder, Alex Pacheco, had also been planning burglaries and break-ins along with Rodney Coronado. The feds seized “surveillance logs; code names for Coronado, Pacheco, and others; burglary tools; two-way radios; night vision goggles; [and] phony identification for Coronado and Pacheco.”
Shortly after Coronado’s arrest, PETA gave $45,200 to his “support committee” and “loaned” $25,000 to his father (the loan was never repaid and PETA hasn’t complained). Now free from jail, with an expired parole, and with the benefit of an expired Statute of Limitations on his many earlier arsons (to which he readily confesses in his standard stump speech), Coronado stood before a crowd of hundreds of young people at American University in January 2003 and demonstrated how to turn a milk jug into a bomb. A few days later, ALF criminals tried to burn down a McDonald’s restaurant in Chico, California, using a firebomb that matched Coronado’s recipe.
The following month, Ingrid Newkirk told ABC News that Rodney Coronado is “a fine young man.”
Newkirk wrote a book called Free the Animals! The Untold Story of the U.S. Animal Liberation Front and Its Founder, ‘Valerie.’ In it she writes: “The ALF has, over the years, trusted People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) to receive copies of the evidence of wrongdoing … I have also become somewhat used to jumping on a plane with copies of freshly purloined documents and hurriedly calling news conferences to discuss the ALF’s findings.” Indeed, PETA has held such press conferences just hours after ALF arsons and other break-ins.
PETA has published a leaflet called “Animal Liberation Front: the Army of the Kind.” In another pamphlet, “Activism and the Law,” PETA openly offers advice on “burning a laboratory building.”
“I will be the last person to condemn ALF,” says Newkirk. And in another interview: “I find it small wonder that the laboratories aren’t all burning to the ground. If I had more guts, I’d light a match.” In ALF’s publication Bite Back (yes, this terrorist group has a newsletter), Newkirk has said: “You can’t have all politeness and patience, all potlucks and epistles … Some people will never budge unless [they are] pushed to budge.”
Perhaps Newkirk’s most telling comment, though, came in a 2002 U.S. News & World Report feature. “Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective,” she admitted. “We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works.”
Profile:
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
Overview
Officers
Quotes
Financials
Connections
News
Copyright © 2007 Center for Consumer Freedom. All rights reserved.
ArmySGT.
04-19-2007, 09:44 PM
Follow this link. Who are they? Have they indeed been indicted or convicted? Is this person a member of a militant group with another cause?
Dottie Rebel
04-19-2007, 09:45 PM
Need more?
Here. (http://helpinganimals.com/animalsHome.asp)
"Who loves us, whether we’re on top of the world or down in the dumps, rolling in the dough or barely scraping by? Our animal companions, of course! They’re our best friends, and we owe it to them to make sure that their lives are as happy and comfortable as they can possibly be.
But caring for our best friends isn’t as simple as just filling their food bowls and taking them to the veterinarian when they’re sick. Bringing an animal companion into our lives is a big responsibility—one that means making a lifetime commitment (which could be 15 years or more, depending on the animal) to provide them with exercise, training, grooming, food, veterinary care, and, of course, plenty of love and attention.
This site will help you do just that, with everything you need to know about being a great guardian to your furry, feathered, and finned friends. From housetraining Fido to nontoxic flea control, from spaying and neutering to saving kitty’s claws and your couch, you’ve found your reliable source for animal-care advice."
Dottie Rebel
04-19-2007, 09:52 PM
Sorry, SGT, but no, I am not going to respond to an article put out by the Center for Consumer Freedom, which is a lobbying organization funded entirely by Big Tobacco, companies involved in animal experimentation, and the meat and dairy industries. Their fat profits depend on animal exploitation so I do not expect their information to be objective. Of course it won't be!
Well The Sarge posted some good stuff there. I must have missed that link before so thank you for putting it up again. I am halfway through the episode and they looked into PETAs tax records. (legal as they are a non profit) On 1/20/95 they gave 45,200.00 to the Rodney Coronado support comitee. The memo for it is "(Donation to support committees work)"
So YES they DO give money to a known arson.
The article that the Sarge posted has destroying a vans brakes in its list. That could verry well have killed an innocent person. It Proves total lack of regard to human safety as a innocent person may have been killed from this. What happens when the van rear ends a car pushing it into an intersection?
hardkandee
04-19-2007, 10:14 PM
I love how that didn't really answer the question.
How is saying that they support adoption but not buy from pet stores not an answer?
Hell, PETA advocates having at least two pets (so they can keep each other company)!
Dottie Rebel
04-19-2007, 10:18 PM
^^^^True.
ArmySGT.
04-19-2007, 10:20 PM
Please do feel free to read all of these press releases from the United States Federal Bureau of Investigations. ALF and ELF members comingle amd support one another. Both recieve funds shifted from PETA donations.
Lysondra
04-19-2007, 10:20 PM
How is saying that they support adoption but not buy from pet stores not an answer?
Hell, PETA advocates having at least two pets (so they can keep each other company)!
All it said was it understood why people have pets because humans have an absurd fascination and that kinda 'well if you're gonna have them do this and this'... it never said it SUPPORTED it at all... read carefully.. it just said they know why people have pets and to get them fixed. It also says to get them from a shelter because it'll save them from immunization BECAUSE people have an absurd fascination with pets which CAUSED them to be in shelters.
Basically; if people didn't want pets we wouldn't be in this situation at all, so at least do x, y and z.
hardkandee
04-19-2007, 10:29 PM
There is nothing PETA can do about thousands of years of domestication. They do not advocate setting all animals free and returning to a type of natural world. They just want animals to be safe and cared for. So they want people to adopt from shelters and keep them as pets because "we owe it to them to make sure that their lives are as happy and comfortable as they can possibly be." (http://www.helpinganimals.com)
PETA has entire websites dedicated to helping people be caring and responsible pet owners.
hardkandee
04-19-2007, 10:37 PM
Please do feel free to read all of these press releases from the United States Federal Bureau of Investigations. ALF and ELF members comingle amd support one another. Both recieve funds shifted from PETA donations.
http://tinyurl.com/yq3laf
So I just searched through the links and found none that mentioned PETA with a link to ALF or ELF.
In fact, one of the only documents that does come up when you search for PETA is one in which the FBI denies unauthorized and unlawful inqueries.
Well now we have FBI and Tax proof. Its tough to get much more proof than that.
so on to the question of an organization i FULLY support.
Infact there is one. I fully support the search group I belong to. I had one thing they didnt like me doing on my free time so I stopped. Like I said FULLY support them. Our leader (Chief) is one of the greatest men I have ever met. He is voted into his position and can be voted out. Therefore the members themselves have the ability to change leadership as needed and are able to vote on by law changes and such. How many of you PETA and ALF supporters can do that?
Lysondra
04-19-2007, 10:40 PM
You're linking outside the answer. ALL I SAID was the reply doesn't answer the question. I DID NOT SAY peta doesn't advocate owning pets.
hardkandee
04-19-2007, 10:49 PM
You're linking outside the answer. ALL I SAID was the reply doesn't answer the question. I DID NOT SAY peta doesn't advocate owning pets.
;) Ah, ok. I'm thinking that Dottie didn't want to post the entire page and just snipped that piece, so I elaborated with more from their site.
(I was messing around on their pet's site and found out that "Pigeons can tell a Monet painting from a Picasso piece and can communicate using visual symbols on a computer." You got me thinking about birds, LM!!)
I think those that are for PETA have yet to shoot down any of the big points here.
1: PETA is against working dogs. This includes seeing eye dogs and rescue dogs. Rescue dogs save lives.
2: PETA has given atleast the $45,200 directly to Ray Coronodo, thus supporting him
3: Ray Coronodo has been found guilty of starting atleast 7 fires
4: the ALF Prpmptes violence as a way to make your point. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF TERRORISM
5: If what ArmySgt posted is true at least once a vehicles brakes were sabotaged, this is likely to injure or kill more than just the driver.
The head of PETA was recorded saying they wanted "Total animal liberation" Well that means no pets people, think about it.
Lysondra
04-19-2007, 10:55 PM
;) Ah, ok. I'm thinking that Dottie didn't want to post the entire page and just snipped that piece, so I elaborated with more from their site.
(I was messing around on their pet's site and found out that "Pigeons can tell a Monet painting from a Picasso piece and can communicate using visual symbols on a computer." You got me thinking about birds, LM!!)
What am I, Stripper Web's resident bird lady?! :-P :-P
hardkandee
04-19-2007, 11:06 PM
You know you're much more than just the resident bird lady! But those pictures (well, all your pics!) were so beautiful. I guess they left an impression. :)
ResQ, it's bedtime for me. I give PETA money. If PETA wants to give their money to ALF because they see it fit, then fine. I'm cool with that. Honestly, I think terrorism is some misleading, ridiculous term anyhow, but you can call it anything you want. Especially with Rhiannon gone, let's keep this the Lounge and not Poo.
aussiepunkshocker
04-20-2007, 12:19 AM
Oops, sorry. I meant isnt the official ALF in America a non-violent group who dont belief in violence or direct action but campaign peacefully? (And Im not knocking legal or peaceful campaigns either.) I know the "ALF" are in America also, but Im wondering about the 2 different ALF groups (again).
What do you mean by passive?
They DO NOT under any circumstances support the harming of any animal--human or not. Some people (not you) do not want to recognize the different between property damage and violence.
aussiepunkshocker
04-20-2007, 12:26 AM
If this is true my opinion of PETA has just gone up!
Edited to add:
25 years ago I read about direct action and what not to do and which precautions to take so as to be succesful and to avoid getting caught. - This sort of stuff was circulated widely within the anarcho-punk movement at the time if anyones wondering, but I imagine its still circulating for reasons which i think are obvious. Because of that though I do find it hard to believe that any individual could be funded by a well known organised group because surely in order for that to happen people stand a much higher risk of getting caught. Everyone knows how infiltrated animal rights groups are with undercover cops. An imprisoned activist is a useless activist so they say.
Of course providing legal help after someones been caught is a different kettle of fish, but anyway...
Iposted the link for this article earlier. Apparently no one read it. Since it is relevant to the last eight or so posts.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
501 Front Street, Norfolk, VA 23510
Phone 757-622-7382 | Fax 757-622-0457 | Email
[email protected]
Black Eye
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals provides aid and comfort for the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and the Animal Liberation Front (ALF). The two groups are responsible for more than 600 crimes since 1996, causing (by a very conservative FBI estimate) more than $43 million in damage. ALF’s “press office” brags that in 2002, the two groups committed “100 illegal direct actions” -- like blowing up SUVs, destroying the brakes on seafood delivery trucks, and planting firebombs in restaurants.
The FBI calls ALF and ELF the nation’s “most serious domestic terrorism threat.” Bruce Friedrich, PETA’s “vegan campaign director” and third-in-command, didn’t seem to care when he addressed the Animal Rights 2001 convention in Virginia, telling a crowd of over 1,000 activists that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation.”
“It would be great,” he added, “if all the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow.”
PETA’s connections to ALF and ELF are indisputable. “We did it, we did it. We gave $1,500 to the ELF for a specific program,” PETA’s Lisa Lange admitted on the Fox News Channel. PETA has offered no fewer than eight different explanations of what the “specific program” was, but law enforcement leaders have noted that since the Earth Liberation Front is a criminal enterprise, it has absolutely no legal “programs” of any kind.
For instance, in 2003, ELF set fire to an unfinished, 200 unit condominium complex near San Diego. The arson caused $50 million in damage, and according to a San Diego Fire Captain: “It could have killed someone.” ELF left its calling card in the form of a twelve foot sign that read: “If you build it -- we will burn it -- the ELF’s are mad.”
PETA also has given $2,000 to David Wilson, then a national ALF “spokesperson.” The group paid $27,000 for the legal defense of Roger Troen, who was arrested for taking part in an October 1986 burglary and arson at the University of Oregon. It gave $7,500 to Fran Stephanie Trutt, who tried to murder the president of a medical laboratory. It gave $5,000 to Josh Harper, who attacked Native Americans on a whale hunt by throwing smoke bombs, shooting flares, and spraying their faces with chemical fire extinguishers. All of these monies were paid out of tax-exempt funds, the same pot of money constantly enlarged by donations from an unsuspecting general public.
PETA president Ingrid Newkirk is also an acknowledged financial supporter of a publication called No Compromise. This periodical operates on behalf of the radicals of ALF, and often publishes underground “communiqués” and calls to arms from ALF leaders.
Most ominously, PETA president Ingrid Newkirk was involved in the multi-million-dollar arson at Michigan State University that resulted in a 57-month prison term for Animal Liberation Front bomber Rodney Coronado. At Coronado’s sentencing hearing, U.S. Attorney Michael Dettmer said that PETA’s Ingrid Newkirk arranged ahead of time to have Coronado send her a pair of FedEx packages from Michigan -- one on the day before he burned the lab down, and the other shortly afterward.
The first FedEx, according to the Sentencing Memorandum, was delivered to a woman named Maria Blanton, “a longtime PETA member who had agreed to accept the first Federal Express package from Coronado after being asked to do so by Ingrid Newkirk.” The FBI intercepted the second package, which had been sent to the same address. It contained documents that Coronado stole before lighting his firebombs, as well as “a videotape of the perpetrator of the MSU crime, disguised in a ski mask.” Since Coronado was convicted of the arson, we now know that he himself was that masked man. “Significantly,” wrote U.S. Attorney Dettmer, “Newkirk had arranged to have the package[s] delivered to her days before the MSU arson occurred.” (emphasis in the original)
A search warrant executed at Blanton’s home turned up evidence that PETA’s other co-founder, Alex Pacheco, had also been planning burglaries and break-ins along with Rodney Coronado. The feds seized “surveillance logs; code names for Coronado, Pacheco, and others; burglary tools; two-way radios; night vision goggles; [and] phony identification for Coronado and Pacheco.”
Shortly after Coronado’s arrest, PETA gave $45,200 to his “support committee” and “loaned” $25,000 to his father (the loan was never repaid and PETA hasn’t complained). Now free from jail, with an expired parole, and with the benefit of an expired Statute of Limitations on his many earlier arsons (to which he readily confesses in his standard stump speech), Coronado stood before a crowd of hundreds of young people at American University in January 2003 and demonstrated how to turn a milk jug into a bomb. A few days later, ALF criminals tried to burn down a McDonald’s restaurant in Chico, California, using a firebomb that matched Coronado’s recipe.
The following month, Ingrid Newkirk told ABC News that Rodney Coronado is “a fine young man.”
Newkirk wrote a book called Free the Animals! The Untold Story of the U.S. Animal Liberation Front and Its Founder, ‘Valerie.’ In it she writes: “The ALF has, over the years, trusted People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) to receive copies of the evidence of wrongdoing … I have also become somewhat used to jumping on a plane with copies of freshly purloined documents and hurriedly calling news conferences to discuss the ALF’s findings.” Indeed, PETA has held such press conferences just hours after ALF arsons and other break-ins.
PETA has published a leaflet called “Animal Liberation Front: the Army of the Kind.” In another pamphlet, “Activism and the Law,” PETA openly offers advice on “burning a laboratory building.”
“I will be the last person to condemn ALF,” says Newkirk. And in another interview: “I find it small wonder that the laboratories aren’t all burning to the ground. If I had more guts, I’d light a match.” In ALF’s publication Bite Back (yes, this terrorist group has a newsletter), Newkirk has said: “You can’t have all politeness and patience, all potlucks and epistles … Some people will never budge unless [they are] pushed to budge.”
Perhaps Newkirk’s most telling comment, though, came in a 2002 U.S. News & World Report feature. “Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective,” she admitted. “We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works.”
Profile:
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
Overview
Officers
Quotes
Financials
Connections
News
Copyright © 2007 Center for Consumer Freedom. All rights reserved.
Dottie Rebel
04-20-2007, 01:35 AM
^^^ALF in the U.S. STAUNCHLY supports direct action. At least all of them I've ever met--which has been in almost every state of the union in my travels :)
To whomever said that the ALF does not have democratic leadership, the ability to change leadership, whatever. You are right. Because they have no leadership or centralized organization or coordination
From their site:
The Animal Liberation Front consists of small autonomous groups of people all over the world who carry out direct action according to the ALF guidelines. Any group of people who are vegetarians or vegans and who carry out actions according to ALF guidelines have the right to regard themselves as part of the ALF.
The ALF guidelines are:
1. TO liberate animals from places of abuse, i.e. laboratories, factory farms, fur farms, etc, and place them in good homes where they may live out their natural lives, free from suffering.
2. TO inflict economic damage to those who profit from the misery and exploitation of animals.
3. TO reveal the horror and atrocities committed against animals behind locked doors, by performing non-violent direct actions and liberations.
4. TO take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human and non-human.
5. To analyze the ramifications of all proposed actions, and never apply generalizations when specific information is available.
aussiepunkshocker
04-20-2007, 01:52 AM
yeah Im well aware of that ALF Im just unsure how the other ive heard about fits into the picture :)
Im not sure if you saw what I posted earlier in the thread so here it is again.
From
>>PLEASE NOTE: The North American A.L.F. Supporters Group is a completely separate organization from the A.L.F. YOU CANNOT become a member of the A.L.F., or an A.L.F. activist, by supporting the North American A.L.F.S.G.<<
^^^ALF in the U.S. STAUNCHLY supports direct action. At least all of them I've ever met--which has been in almost every state of the union in my travels :)
To whomever said that the ALF does not have democratic leadership, the ability to change leadership, whatever. You are right. Because they have no leadership or centralized organization or coordination
From their site:
The Animal Liberation Front consists of small autonomous groups of people all over the world who carry out direct action according to the ALF guidelines. Any group of people who are vegetarians or vegans and who carry out actions according to ALF guidelines have the right to regard themselves as part of the ALF.
The ALF guidelines are:
1. TO liberate animals from places of abuse, i.e. laboratories, factory farms, fur farms, etc, and place them in good homes where they may live out their natural lives, free from suffering.
2. TO inflict economic damage to those who profit from the misery and exploitation of animals.
3. TO reveal the horror and atrocities committed against animals behind locked doors, by performing non-violent direct actions and liberations.
4. TO take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human and non-human.
5. To analyze the ramifications of all proposed actions, and never apply generalizations when specific information is available.
Pamela
04-20-2007, 05:31 AM
^^^ Isnt the American ALF a passive group anyway? I know British style ALF has been adopted there too but I mean the official group as i was trying to point out in an earlier post.
Yes. The British ALF has actually put up videos of burning lab vehicles and a breaking into a lab to take out dogs, rabbits, etc. Pretty cool Vid actually.
They are not shy about what they do. They do have a site. Not much on it. It's mainly for Government i am sure to read and see that they want to work with them to stop abuse against animals.
As for PETA, ingrid has made a statement that she does not own any animals, "they are not ours to own." She has siad that in one of her books to, i went through it at the library. Not Animal Liberation. Another one.
Also PETA is messed up. When she freely talks on live TV and says Pit Bull dogs are vicious, and the Org. ONLY alters Pit Bulls for free (yea in hopes of getting rid of the breed) that bites.
Many of the members are hypocrites. They wear leather, eat meat etc. Mainly celebrities.
In a whole...the Org. has got some cleaning up to do.
The ALF on the other hand does what they set out to do. No BS! BE it wrong or right, i slowly back away from them too.
Yea easy to say perhaps PETA wants ALF to do dirty work for them!
KaliThorne
04-20-2007, 06:58 AM
I agree philosophically with both PETA and Greenpeace but I disagree with their methods and often I think their priorities are messed up.
As Groucho Marx would say, "I would never belong to an organization that would have me as a member."
flickad
04-20-2007, 07:24 AM
I agree philosophically with both PETA and Greenpeace but I disagree with their methods and often I think their priorities are messed up.
As Groucho Marx would say, "I would never belong to an organization that would have me as a member."
Yah, seconded. I'm extremely sympathetic to animal liberation, but I think PETA often alienates would-be supporters by going too far.
pennygirl
04-20-2007, 11:03 AM
Since the forum is open... im a pretty big animal lover.. pretty much keep my views to myself because i think views are not something you can impose on others.. we each need to find our own way ... but i do love animals so a few years ago a peta article struck me.. it was something about a guy changing his name to kentuckyfriedcruelty.com or something like that.. basically that website exposed alot of stuff with kfc... something personally i think we all should at least be "aware" of.. what we do with it is our own personal decision but awareness to me is important.. well anyways i liked what that guy did because everything he put his name or something people were exposed to the website name so they could go there and look at it if they wanted to .. so anyways
I wrote to peta.. i said if you have any bumper stickers that say kentuckyfriedcruelty.com... id put it on my car.. just bringing awareness.. not preaching anything... well they wrote me back and said SURE we will send you a bumper sticker thanks blah blah .. so i get one in the mail... hoping for a simple kentuckyfriedcruelty.com ...... instead.. i get some freakish cartoon thing with col. sanders and an evil grin stabbing a chicken with a knife and blood shooting out.. what the heck.. you dont share information with people by using shock stuff.. to me if i saw that id think whoever did it was a fanatic.. like churchs that say Come to church or you will fry in hell!! does that truly make any normal person go? same with this bumper sticker.. it was an incredible dissapointment.. i wrote back stating that.. saying if you truly want to inform people simple things like just the website would go alot farther than a crazed chicken killing man picture... no response from them... anyways.. my experience
pennygirl
04-20-2007, 11:16 AM
last little thought..interesting topic
one thing about peta and whatever other groups.. as mindboggling as their methods seem to me i guess credit has to be given because they are "doing something" ..theyve brought awareness to alot of things i think otherwise we'd be blind to and have no idea as we go our merry way..
same with the mormon's .. one of their churches is a block from me so even though theyve seen my face a million times the same two little missionary boys on bikes always stop me to give me their tract.. i have no interest whatsoever in their church or them but on the flip side they are out there trying to do something good as retarded as it comes across..
and one more peta peeve though.. i got the free vegan starter kit in the mail ..which was a nice thing for them to do.. but it was just a kit teaching me how to go from eating animal products to eating fake processed fake meat foods.. and noodles and everything that if i ate id feel sick and bloated.. If you want people off animal products turn them onto "living foods" things that are inline with nature and health .. not promoting what to me is nasty fake packaged food
A neighbor of my mom's with peta animal rights bumper stickers filling the back of her car is about as round as a ball.. she just says shes a humane vegan not a healthy one... so she orders papa johns all the time but just scrapes off the cheese.. Im getting judgemental here but i think caring about animals goes in line with caring about nature and health and the earth ect... filling up on ho ho's and scraping off pizza cheese because its "vegan" just seems so off balance..
cameron_keys
04-20-2007, 11:19 AM
last little thought..interesting topic
one thing about peta and whatever other groups.. as mindboggling as their methods seem to me i guess credit has to be given because they are "doing something" ..theyve brought awareness to alot of things i think otherwise we'd be blind to and have no idea as we go our merry way..
same with the mormon's .. one of their churches is a block from me so even though theyve seen my face a million times the same two little missionary boys on bikes always stop me to give me their tract.. i have no interest whatsoever in their church or them but on the flip side they are out there trying to do something good as retarded as it comes across..
and one more peta peeve though.. i got the free vegan starter kit in the mail ..which was a nice thing for them to do.. but it was just a kit teaching me how to go from eating animal products to eating fake processed fake meat foods.. and noodles and everything that if i ate id feel sick and bloated.. If you want people off animal products turn them onto "living foods" things that are inline with nature and health .. not promoting what to me is nasty fake packaged food
A neighbor of my mom's with peta animal rights bumper stickers filling the back of her car is about as round as a ball.. she just says shes a humane vegan not a healthy one... so she orders papa johns all the time but just scrapes off the cheese.. Im getting judgemental here but i think caring about animals goes in line with caring about nature and health and the earth ect... filling up on ho ho's and scraping off pizza cheese because its "vegan" just seems so off balance..
Well that makes no sense...if she is doing it for animal rights reasons...the cow has already been exploited for the cheese...she has supported it by buying the cheese. Whether she stuffs it in her mouth or throws it away is irrelevant to the dairy industry....they already got her money.
You can special order papa johns...why doesnt she just order it without cheese???
Yes. The British ALF has actually put up videos of burning lab vehicles and a breaking into a lab to take out dogs, rabbits, etc. Pretty cool Vid actually.
They are not shy about what they do. They do have a site. Not much on it. It's mainly for Government i am sure to read and see that they want to work with them to stop abuse against animals.
As for PETA, ingrid has made a statement that she does not own any animals, "they are not ours to own." She has siad that in one of her books to, i went through it at the library. Not Animal Liberation. Another one.
Also PETA is messed up. When she freely talks on live TV and says Pit Bull dogs are vicious, and the Org. ONLY alters Pit Bulls for free (yea in hopes of getting rid of the breed) that bites.
Many of the members are hypocrites. They wear leather, eat meat etc. Mainly celebrities.
In a whole...the Org. has got some cleaning up to do.
The ALF on the other hand does what they set out to do. No BS! BE it wrong or right, i slowly back away from them too.
Yea easy to say perhaps PETA wants ALF to do dirty work for them!
I hope everyone reads this. Great post
aussiepunkshocker
04-20-2007, 11:42 AM
The whole doing veganism - or vegetarianism badly thing annoys the hell out of me too, I cant stress how much actually!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ive been envolved somewhat with the animal rights movement now since the early 1980s and I just feel very saddened when I see some of the long term vegans and vegetarians looking like shit. It shouldnt be this way! Thankfully alot of people do it well, (my grandparents for instance who are 90 now) but to promote doing it badly is madness especially if people are going to use animal tested medicine to try to fix the problems downtrack! (Another area that maddens me if no one had noticed, lol!)
I agree about the sticker also.
The whole scraping of the cheese thing though. well I can understand that if you dont want to eat something you just dont want to, but to order it in the first place seems hyporcritical. However no ones perfect :)
last little thought..interesting topic
one thing about peta and whatever other groups.. as mindboggling as their methods seem to me i guess credit has to be given because they are "doing something" ..theyve brought awareness to alot of things i think otherwise we'd be blind to and have no idea as we go our merry way..
same with the mormon's .. one of their churches is a block from me so even though theyve seen my face a million times the same two little missionary boys on bikes always stop me to give me their tract.. i have no interest whatsoever in their church or them but on the flip side they are out there trying to do something good as retarded as it comes across..
and one more peta peeve though.. i got the free vegan starter kit in the mail ..which was a nice thing for them to do.. but it was just a kit teaching me how to go from eating animal products to eating fake processed fake meat foods.. and noodles and everything that if i ate id feel sick and bloated.. If you want people off animal products turn them onto "living foods" things that are inline with nature and health .. not promoting what to me is nasty fake packaged food
A neighbor of my mom's with peta animal rights bumper stickers filling the back of her car is about as round as a ball.. she just says shes a humane vegan not a healthy one... so she orders papa johns all the time but just scrapes off the cheese.. Im getting judgemental here but i think caring about animals goes in line with caring about nature and health and the earth ect... filling up on ho ho's and scraping off pizza cheese because its "vegan" just seems so off balance..
Dottie Rebel
04-20-2007, 12:00 PM
If you want people off animal products turn them onto "living foods" things that are inline with nature and health .. not promoting what to me is nasty fake packaged food... filling up on ho ho's and scraping off pizza cheese because its "vegan" just seems so off balance..
Think about how FAR this would put most people from veganism, though. Most Americans eat SHIT and don't care. Suggesting to them they can eat basically the same things but just make a few adjustments is so much much encouraging. It makes it easier for people to make the switch.
How overwhelming to understand the concept of "living foods" (do you mean "whole foods" or "raw foods"?) for someone who is used to eating at McDonald's once a day. If someone had taken that approach with me I'd NEVER have gone vegetarian or vegan.
My diet was mostly meat before (I fucking loved the stuff) and it's heavy on meat now (the fake kind). Of course, I've also learned the joy of whole natural, unprocessed foods, but that comes with time.
Dottie Rebel
04-20-2007, 12:04 PM
Well that makes no sense...if she is doing it for animal rights reasons...the cow has already been exploited for the cheese...she has supported it by buying the cheese. Whether she stuffs it in her mouth or throws it away is irrelevant to the dairy industry....they already got her money.
You can special order papa johns...why doesnt she just order it without cheese???
My thoughts exactly. This woman doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense. You can even order a pizza with half cheese, in that case that's she's sharing it. Having your heart in the right place is very important. But it's nice to have a brain in your head, too ;)
Dottie Rebel
04-20-2007, 12:06 PM
Yea easy to say perhaps PETA wants ALF to do dirty work for them!
I disagree with with. PETA and ALF are two different groups with very different strategies. One is waging a war on the ground and one is waging a war in the press. There is certainly a place for both.
How can you disagree with that? I have proven that PETA supports the ALF. Its not opinion its fact.
ArmySGT.
04-20-2007, 04:55 PM
One collects the money from the unwitting with glamorous celebrity endorsement, the other uses the money then funneled to them to buy bomb making materials.
Yes I can fully understand how PETA wants ALF to do the dirty work. PETA would be called a front operation.
Pamela
04-20-2007, 06:29 PM
If you're still for PETA fine. But get this.
This months issue of Discover is running a story about introducing the Wolves back into Yellowstone National Park, and PETA is PISSED. The Wolves they say are going to kill the dear and eat them. OMG!!! What?
This is a natural process. This is what our wolrd should strive for, species being turned back out to their natural habitat.
What the hell happened to PETA? And why would anyone ever make a statement that damn crazy!!!!
Seems PETA has been getting shit from all 4 corners, and they will continue to until these "insane" statements stop.
Santos
04-20-2007, 06:40 PM
I had to check on the Wolve thing. From the PETA website . . .
"Reintroducing wolves and other predators into an environment that has been free of such animals for a long time is also traumatic for the animals who already live there, such as deer, birds, and any other animals who suddenly find themselves being stalked and eaten. While supporters of predator-reintroduction programs believe in the concept of restoring the "balance of nature," it's not possible to artificially impose this balance. Ecosystems are in a constant state of change, which has been sped up by human expansion and technological advances. Our species must take responsibility for wiping out predator populations in many areas of the world and must also realize that the system has evolved and recovered to its current state."
Pamela
04-20-2007, 06:44 PM
I had to check on the Wolve thing. From the PETA website . . .
"Reintroducing wolves and other predators into an environment that has been free of such animals for a long time is also traumatic for the animals who already live there, such as deer, birds, and any other animals who suddenly find themselves being stalked and eaten. While supporters of predator-reintroduction programs believe in the concept of restoring the "balance of nature," it's not possible to artificially impose this balance. Ecosystems are in a constant state of change, which has been sped up by human expansion and technological advances. Our species must take responsibility for wiping out predator populations in many areas of the world and must also realize that the system has evolved and recovered to its current state."
Such BS, they don't even know what they say...Like there are not any other predators out there taking birds and deer...::)
Figures they would put this on their site. Wild animals, are just that. They never lose the fight or flight instinct!
aussiepunkshocker
04-20-2007, 10:06 PM
How? The first rule of activism is to tell no one about planned actions.
Animal rights groups have been - and the general feeling is that they still are, infiltrated by either undercover police or their allies. Any activist who talks about their planned actions let alone collects money from a well known source is a fool and vice versa.
Besides bombs can be made cheaply - I remember kids at school making explosives. If working class kids in Britain can afford to make bombs anyone can.
The only direct action activists working together in groups are people who know and trust each other exceedingly well. Generally the rule is dont even tell your close friends or family what you do, dont tell anyone, report it annonamously if you feel its safe to do so. Common sense would suggest that, but it is circulated too in various animal rights handbooks and sites (or at least was up until 9/11) to try and help to make sure people dont get caught.
One collects the money from the unwitting with glamorous celebrity endorsement, the other uses the money then funneled to them to buy bomb making materials.
Yes I can fully understand how PETA wants ALF to do the dirty work. PETA would be called a front operation.
pennygirl
04-22-2007, 01:17 PM
When i mentioned living foods... i just meant food food.. like buying vegetables and rice and stuff and using good oils to cook them.. basically getting back in touch with nature and the foods you eat.. not opening a package.. I know for me turning away from meats and dairy for "personal reasons" came mainly by getting more in tune with my food.. going to the grocery store and doing the outside aisles for my shopping.. trying grains i never heard of such as quinoa ..trying to eat according to what felt right vrs. because it was in a tv commercial.. Anything that helps people eat and be happy without the sacrifice of animals is a good thing.. i guess if the packaged foods help the transition then it is a good thing.... Just for me not eating pepperoni pizza didnt happen because i found an imitation meat/dairy version .. it happened because i just didnt think the ooey gooey taste of it was worth all that had to transpire for it to get in front of me.. and i was turned on by seeing people with sustainable gardens though im WAY to lazy to do that ..and seeing people eating mangos with the sweet juice running down their chin...and opening fresh young coconut and drinking it straight from its shell first thing in the morning for invigorating hydration just was like a wow factor for me.. i'm a nature nut at heart so those are the types of things that helped me move from eating animals
But your point makes sense.. if the packaged alternatives work then its a good thing...
i DOOO eat cheese and milk when its placed in front of me by an innocent soul that is offering me food... a few bites though not an inhalation ... because for me karma plays a factor too .. pushing the food away in a snobbish god i cant believe you eat that ..do you know where that came from.... but I just cant stomach meat.. but i'll put it on my plate and hope there is something else i can pile my plate with and will even cut it up but then move it around and fill up on the other stuff.. my husband finally is OK with me not eating meat ..actually likes trying to make non meat versions of his food for me .. but the dairy is making him roll his eyes and im not trying to go there.. so when i make our morning coffee ill make mine with just sugar and sip blah... but when he comes in all bed head and happy with coffee for me with full cream in it .. i enjoy every sip.. just dont go back for seconds
Dottie Rebel
04-22-2007, 01:25 PM
^^^I have a really hard time with this double standard. The fact is that I have known hardly any vegans or vegetarians in my entire life who would push non-veg food away in a snobby manner. Like, maybe this one dude who wasn't just vegan, he was a total asshole. No one else I know would dream of insulting a well-intentioned person or hurting their cause by being nasty about it. Most will just say something like, "I'm sorry, I'm not able to eat dairy" or whatever.
HOWEVER---I've known many and I mean *many* meat-eaters who will roll their eyes, make rude comments, chew a bit of meat with their mouth open inches from my face and tell me how good it tastes, etc. These are usually the same people saying that veg*ans constantly flaunt their diets and shove their beliefs down others throats.
Pamela
04-22-2007, 02:54 PM
^^^I have a really hard time with this double standard. The fact is that I have known hardly any vegans or vegetarians in my entire life who would push non-veg food away in a snobby manner. Like, maybe this one dude who wasn't just vegan, he was a total asshole. No one else I know would dream of insulting a well-intentioned person or hurting their cause by being nasty about it. Most will just say something like, "I'm sorry, I'm not able to eat dairy" or whatever.
HOWEVER---I've known many and I mean *many* meat-eaters who will roll their eyes, make rude comments, chew a bit of meat with their mouth open inches from my face and tell me how good it tastes, etc. These are usually the same people saying that veg*ans constantly flaunt their diets and shove their beliefs down others throats.
True, me being Vegan is great. FOR ME! Ya know what is funny, it's when a friend asks me how i survive on the foods i do eat, and i tell them, we always seem to gravitate towards a "we need meat, why do you think it's here crap" and i actually used to stand up for myself and tell the many other foods not animal that have protein etc in them.
Now i don't bother, before long 2 hours have past and i and my friend are angry and have to stop. I am not going there.
I respect what a person eats. I only hope a person would respect what i eat. And my friends have learned to. But i never say you should not eat that or this unless they start the debate with what i SHOULD eat.
A date with dinner is real fun....gosh imagine that. I try to avoid them and go dancing with a date instead...lol.
pennygirl
04-23-2007, 10:28 AM
Ive chosen to tell a teeny tiny select number of people what I eat and why (pretty much veganish) ... too much drama and gasps and stuff id rather not get into when im having a meal with someone .. I want to enjoy the meal not spend the first 20 min listening to a bunch of crap having to defend myself.. I wish it wasnt this way ..
Id have no problem sitting down with someone that just wanted to eat say Soap.. oh well its what they want to eat.. its personal but in my life people arent like that .. they just look and stare and roll their eyes so Ive chosen my battles
and the eye rollers have always been quite plump and have bad skin ect....
so I just go my merry way and know Im doing what is right for me ... if anyone genuinely wanted to ASK me what I ate and why that would be lovely .. but if it turns into a great debate no thank you .. pushing a little turkey around my plate is easier than dealing with crap.... Also in my family my brother gave up meat for a bit and made it known.. all family gatherings after that just had a retardo twist to it .. instead of eating and enjoying food people would point out now this is made "special" it doesnt have meat... my brother didnt want "special" food.. he just wants to see all the food choices and pick what he wants.. and bring some of his own... Food just turns crazy so I just take the meek quiet path ..guess its the lazy way but it works for me
Roulette
04-23-2007, 10:46 AM
^^^I have a really hard time with this double standard. The fact is that I have known hardly any vegans or vegetarians in my entire life who would push non-veg food away in a snobby manner. Like, maybe this one dude who wasn't just vegan, he was a total asshole. No one else I know would dream of insulting a well-intentioned person or hurting their cause by being nasty about it. Most will just say something like, "I'm sorry, I'm not able to eat dairy" or whatever.
HOWEVER---I've known many and I mean *many* meat-eaters who will roll their eyes, make rude comments, chew a bit of meat with their mouth open inches from my face and tell me how good it tastes, etc. These are usually the same people saying that veg*ans constantly flaunt their diets and shove their beliefs down others throats.
OMG true!! I dont care if others want to eat meat or dairy, that's someones personal choice. I knew a girl who was eating some fake chicken nuggets and LOVING them. Then she remembered I didnt eat meat and flipped out and wouldnt touch the nuggets... I was baffled. When my cousins come over for family dinner we serve Quorn bran fake chicken nuggets and they dont know the difference. They're of the oppinion that "If it isnt meat is isn't worth eating." wtf? They love our fake meat and dont even know it!! I do not get people who think like that!! gah!
Roulette
04-23-2007, 10:48 AM
Id have no problem sitting down with someone that just wanted to eat say Soap..
ROTFL!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA that made me laugh so hard!! thank you!!!;D
evan_essence
04-25-2007, 09:27 PM
To whomever said that the ALF does not have democratic leadership, the ability to change leadership, whatever. You are right. Because they have no leadership or centralized organization or coordinationUm, I asked if there's a mechanism for members to change the leadership and policies of PETA. I didn't know one way or the other, and I didn't say anything about ALF. I was wondering if there was a way to effect change from within PETA.
2. TO inflict economic damage to those who profit from the misery and exploitation of animals.That's where I have a major problem. Firebombing has the potential for hurting people. Violence against people may not be the intent, and, as another tenet claims, "all precautions" may be taken, but if you firebomb something, you risk hurting someone who might be there after hours and you risk the lives of the firefighters who are going to respond. I think taking "all precautions" would mean no firebombing.
Also, substitute "strippers" for animals in that statement, and you'll see why I view PETA and ALF as being similar to the religious zealots who want to shut down strip clubs and impose their moral beliefs on everyone. Their philosophies and methods scare me.
-Ev