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TheLioness
04-13-2007, 07:29 PM
I don't think that Yek is defending the guy by any means. And some seem to be taking what she is trying to say out of context. It's apparantly easy to jump someone who doesn't fully understand the seriousness of the issue because they haven't had to deal with it their whole lives. So consider us all informed, no need to beat a dead horse.

ETA: I was going to keep this to myself, but f*ck it. Some of you know good & damn well that she was just trying to explain herself, and instead of trying to politely educate, all it takes is a couple people jumping her and then you have to join in. The word "vultures" is all I can think of right now.

Yekhefah
04-13-2007, 07:42 PM
^^^ Exactly, thank you.

I just heard the basketball coach on the radio today and I agree with her statement 100%. This got blown way out of proportion and it's time to move on.

As for Imus, eh. He's 65, he's rich as shit, and he's an asshole. I doubt anybody really feels bad for him.

Jenny
04-13-2007, 08:03 PM
ETA: I was going to keep this to myself, but f*ck it. Some of you know good & damn well that she was just trying to explain herself, and instead of trying to politely educate, all it takes is a couple people jumping her and then you have to join in. The word "vultures" is all I can think of right now.
I think a lot of people strongly disagreed with her; but I think the disagreement was founded and articulated and reasonable. I don't even think it could be characterized as impolite. Nor did I notice any of it be decontextualized. As for the vultures commentary - well, censorship and racism are topics that a lot of people tend to have opinions on. It can't be surprising that they want to express them.

Although, without being mean, I think there is something a little precious about getting all thin skinned about the kind of disagreement expressed here, when her position rests strongly on the premise that people of colour should just suck up the racist commentary and get themselves a spine.

Optimist
04-13-2007, 11:30 PM
I don't think that Yek is defending the guy by any means. And some seem to be taking what she is trying to say out of context. It's apparantly easy to jump someone who doesn't fully understand the seriousness of the issue because they haven't had to deal with it their whole lives. So consider us all informed, no need to beat a dead horse.

ETA: I was going to keep this to myself, but f*ck it. Some of you know good & damn well that she was just trying to explain herself, and instead of trying to politely educate, all it takes is a couple people jumping her and then you have to join in. The word "vultures" is all I can think of right now.


Awww, then you're just too sensitive because it's all just words.:D

Frankly, I didn't see it as jumping on her because she jumped first. And it's certainly not my place to politely educate a white southern woman about the importance of race in America. That was her former school's job, her parents job, but most importantly--her job. Shouldn't she be aware of the big issues in her hometown? Even more to the point shouldn't she have an idea of the subject she's discussing before she makes bold statements on it? The subject is should we still be outraged and affected. I know my place but she doesn't know hers. She wrote as if she knew intimately what blacks should and shouldn't feel. Maybe she shouldn't have been so presumptuous. If a Jew writes of feeling outrage at being defamed I'm not jumpin in there to tell them they shouldn't. Why, because I'm not of that background. So, I can't begin to judge.

Funny thing, this is a part of racism I hate with a passion--when people abuse you and tell you how much time you have to complain and grieve. It's like a guy who beats your ass and as you cry he threatens you with another smack if you don't shut up! Stupid. If your sister walks by and sees you cryin' instead of helping you up she tells you to get over it. Stupid. And no, that's not autobiographical. Point is she set herself up for failure by being willfully blind to others pain. She stumbled in and could care less why other people felt outrage but just wanted them to move on for her own reasons.

It's the chance you take on message boards!! It's a big bad net these days!!

Yekhefah
04-14-2007, 07:46 AM
^^^ Wow, that's a level of projection and missing the point such as I have never seen in all my life.

My point has NOTHING to do with race. I do think it's interesting that as I'm a "white Southern woman" you assume I am a racist, which is not the case. My school, parents, etc. DID teach me to be colorblind. Unfortunately I think we won't achieve that colorblind society as long as people are still conjuring racism where none existed.

Optimist
04-14-2007, 08:23 AM
You spoke of this outrage being an insult to slaves who have "actually" suffered and shared what you think they would say today. But now your point has nothing to do with race? Is that not speaking for those black people? That's not made up or projection--that was your arguement. Why be colorblind when that reduces injustice to just another annoyance. You've lost perspective perhaps because you won't see the color that's been popping up repeatedly. Being colorblind is precisely the problem in this case. If you see color and see abuse heaped on people of a specific color disproportionately, you can make an informed judgement on those people's reactions. You cannot speak for the slaves or their ancestors while blind to the very real differences in treatment.

The posters you believe are ganging up on you see the underlying issue and given your background it's stunning you "can't" see it . I never said you were a racist and I'm not even implying you are a racist. I'm saying that you have put blinders on and refuse to take people's pain seriously. That's what the post was about. You see outrage and decide it's not genuine and it's outright excessive. Pretty judgemental and cold seeing as you are not the target for the abuse.

Yekhefah
04-14-2007, 08:52 AM
I don't believe anyone is "ganging up" on me; I just seem to have a disagreement with a few people, which has happened before and will likely happen again. I do think it's silly to think that people's lives could be ruined or that so many people would be in serious pain over one random asshole calling total strangers "nappy-headed ho's." Sorry if that's insensitive, but really. At what point do we as a society pick up and move on? Two weeks from now? Two years from now?

Imus has made a lot of comments about Jews. Other people have made insulting comments about Southerners. I am ALWAYS hearing nasty remarks about women. As a Jewish Southern woman, I can assure you I haven't shed a tear over any of those remarks, and I damn sure don't take it personally when it's just some jerk who makes his living being an asshole on the radio. If any other Jewish Southern woman did, I would tell her the same things I've said in this thread.

I used to listen to Howard Stern. I quit listening to him when he ceased to be funny and started just being nasty, like Imus. I never felt compelled to hold a press conference, and I never lost any sleep or cried or felt physical pain over anything Stern has said. I've been offended by Howard Stern, and I quit listening to him. Voila, now I don't have to hear any nasty hateful thing he says.

If we allow our society to collapse into wailing and gnashing of teeth every time some jerk makes a rude remark, we're never going to get anywhere. And maybe you disagree, but I DO believe that a colorblind society is worth striving for.

Optimist
04-14-2007, 09:11 AM
I don't believe anyone is "ganging up" on me; I just seem to have a disagreement with a few people, which has happened before and will likely happen again. I do think it's silly to think that people's lives could be ruined or that so many people would be in serious pain over one random asshole calling total strangers "nappy-headed ho's." Sorry if that's insensitive, but really. At what point do we as a society pick up and move on? Two weeks from now? Two years from now?

Imus has made a lot of comments about Jews. Other people have made insulting comments about Southerners. I am ALWAYS hearing nasty remarks about women. As a Jewish Southern woman, I can assure you I haven't shed a tear over any of those remarks, and I damn sure don't take it personally when it's just some jerk who makes his living being an asshole on the radio. If any other Jewish Southern woman did, I would tell her the same things I've said in this thread.

I used to listen to Howard Stern. I quit listening to him when he ceased to be funny and started just being nasty, like Imus. I never felt compelled to hold a press conference, and I never lost any sleep or cried or felt physical pain over anything Stern has said. I've been offended by Howard Stern, and I quit listening to him. Voila, now I don't have to hear any nasty hateful thing he says.

If we allow our society to collapse into wailing and gnashing of teeth every time some jerk makes a rude remark, we're never going to get anywhere. And maybe you disagree, but I DO believe that a colorblind society is worth striving for.

At the top of this page you thanked the poster who said you were being ganged up on and you said earlier that we should "call off our dogs". First you react as if you're a victim and next you act as if it's nothing--which is it?

This thread wasn't about what you feel is the appropriate level of outrage. You've tried to make it that way but it's really not about you and the outrage you don't feel. None of the players said their lives were ruined by the remarks however they have said they found his attack painful. We're aware you think that is silly because that's not what you would feel--but then, why should you feel pain? It wasn't about you.

No one is wailing or gnashing their teeth, they've simply turned the channel. See, society hasn't fallen apart unless you think a lot of news coverage is falling apart. Why do you advise people to just turn the channel when you refuse to take your own advice?

Yekhefah
04-14-2007, 09:15 AM
Fine, whatever. We've been around the same circles, I said my piece, you disagree, okay.

Susan Wayward
04-14-2007, 10:51 AM
You know what, I do believe in making a big deal when people say stupid, racist shit. I believe there should be standards for our public and social discourse, which is why I'll happily freeze out idiot customers when they make racist remarks. Because yes, people are free to say what they like in this country. They are free to be ignorant motherfuckers. But they are not free from the reactions of others, and they are not separate from society. That is why nutjobs who circulate the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are self-publishing, not broadcasting on national networks. That is why fundamental religious sects are rightfully considered fringe groups.

Speech reveals a lot. It reveals part of a person's worldview. If that worldview includes the idea that it's OK to be painfully insulting to people of color or women, I don't have a problem at all with ostracizing it. IT IS NOT OK. Those words are more than just words. They reveal his attitude, that he thinks a certain kind of disregard is perfectly OK for women and people of color.

Again, IT IS NOT OK. Speaking out against it is the right thing to do. This is how we reduce institutionalized racism and sexism. You don't let them call you a ho, you make it a lot harder for them to treat you like a ho.

cinammonkisses
04-14-2007, 10:53 AM
^^Right on Susan!

JustJayda
04-14-2007, 11:05 AM
Thanks (as usual) Susan & Jenny.

Jenny
04-14-2007, 11:20 AM
My school, parents, etc. DID teach me to be colorblind. Unfortunately I think we won't achieve that colorblind society as long as people are still conjuring racism where none existed.
Okay - teaching little children to be metaphorically "colorblind" is fine, well and good. But... we're adults. We are perfectly aware of things like "social context" "historical disadvantage" "social and cultural hegemony" and "economic disadvantage". Striving for a colorblind society is not good if it just disregards all those things and tells people that it is all in their heads. Striving for a colorblind society would be striving for a society in which those things are neutralized, not just ignored.

And word Susan - freedom of speech does NOT mean that we all shut up and let the lunatic fringe element have the freaking stage.

doc-catfish
04-14-2007, 11:35 AM
So I'm Googling today for the latest dish on the Imus flap, and come across this article about how the next target may be rap lyrics that are demeaning to women in the Peoria Journal-Star, and couldn't help but notice the adjacent advertisement.

http://www.pjstar.com/stories/041407/NAT_BCU7UBHR.025.php

I made a screen capture of the page because the advertisement changes with each load, but I thought this particular ad next to a story on something that was demeaning to a segment of society was uhmm...rather ironic.

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7026/rapandimus1bm9.jpg

Susan Wayward
04-14-2007, 11:57 AM
^^Right on Susan!

Thanks (as usual) Susan & Jenny.


My pleasure. We may not be sistahs but we're all sisters!:flower:

leilanicandy
04-14-2007, 12:02 PM
My pleasure. We may not be sistahs but we're all sisters!:flower:


See this is what we need unity! This Imus character is known for attack women. He has issues, that he need to solve.

Nicolina
04-14-2007, 12:19 PM
You know what, I do believe in making a big deal when people say stupid, racist shit. I believe there should be standards for our public and social discourse, which is why I'll happily freeze out idiot customers when they make racist remarks. Because yes, people are free to say what they like in this country. They are free to be ignorant motherfuckers. But they are not free from the reactions of others, and they are not separate from society. That is why nutjobs who circulate the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are self-publishing, not broadcasting on national networks. That is why fundamental religious sects are rightfully considered fringe groups.

Speech reveals a lot. It reveals part of a person's worldview. If that worldview includes the idea that it's OK to be painfully insulting to people of color or women, I don't have a problem at all with ostracizing it. IT IS NOT OK. Those words are more than just words. They reveal his attitude, that he thinks a certain kind of disregard is perfectly OK for women and people of color.

Again, IT IS NOT OK. Speaking out against it is the right thing to do. This is how we reduce institutionalized racism and sexism. You don't let them call you a ho, you make it a lot harder for them to treat you like a ho.

Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!! This is what I was trying to say in the other thread, but you just said it way better! :hat:

Freedom of speech means that Congress can't pass any laws telling people what they can or cannot say. It doesn't mean that ordinary citizens can't speak out against racism, and marginalize those who say ignorant, offensive, hurtful things.

TigersMilk
04-14-2007, 02:53 PM
:thumbsup: for susan! Any kind of racism/prejudice against any group or race isnt right and just fuels the fire.