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Melonie
10-06-2007, 07:54 PM
^^^ yup I read it ... 236,000 'new' signatures were filed yesterday. If these signatures have the same disqualification rate as the original petitions filed 10 days ago, the motion fails and the law goes into effect immediately.

(snip)"The question is whether the roughly 230,000 new signatures will survive scrutiny to qualify the referendum for the Nov. 6 ballot. Two of every three signatures were disqualified as either errors or fraud in the petitions’ disastrous first round.

Judge Timothy Horton of Franklin County Common Pleas Court yesterday refused to interpret the elections calendar in a way that would have given the Vote No on Issue 1 Committee the weekend to gather more signatures. The group said it would appeal and will continue to collect signatures just in case.

If the effort fails to make the ballot, the new state law would take effect, restricting the hours of operation for strip clubs, adult and video book stores, X-rated theaters, and other “sexually oriented businesses.” The law also would increase criminal penalties if nude or seminude strippers should come into direct contact with club patrons." from your second link


At this point, even if by some miracle the petition drive DOES actually get the measure put on the Ohio ballot in November, IMHO all this does is string out the inevitable for another month. With a concerted effort over a 3 month period being barely able to collect support from just 6% of the Ohio population in support of the petition, what do you really think the chances are of getting 51% of the general vote ?

laplover69
10-07-2007, 04:05 AM
This will probably wind up at the Ohio Supreme Court and possibly US Supreme Court regardless of whether or not the issue ends up on the ballot and is voted for or against. If it doesn't get on ballot, or it does and the voters go against the clubs, it doesn't mean the issue is over legally for the clubs... Does anyone smell Deja Vu all over again from Gore vs. Bush?

Melonie
10-07-2007, 08:20 AM
^^^ um, no !!!

I would argue that far fewer people have a personal interest in this issue than in the outcome of a presidential election ! Basically, you've got a tiny minority of people who are actively involved in the strip club / sex industry either as either workers or customers on one side, and you've got a tiny minority of people who are actively involved in the 'morality' industry on the other side. Everybody in between really doesn't know (or want to know), nor do they care. Well at least they don't care as long as a strip club isn't located in their own neighborhood thus driving down their property value, as long as their husband isn't regularly spending money on lap dances etc.

Getting this issue on the Ohio ballot forces Ohio voters to leave the "don't want to know" mode, and instead places a choice directly in front of them. From the point of view of those in the 'morality' business, that choice will be portrayed as giving a 'free hand' to the 'sex' industry to operate in their neighborhood. From the point of view of those in the strip club / sex industry, that choice will be portrayed as supporting a supposed 'right' of free speech / expression that includes (semi) nude girls giving contact lap dances at 2AM. As to which way the majority of Ohio's registered voters will lean, I can only speculate. How many Amish / Mennonites live in Ohio again ?

As to ongoing appeals to the Ohio supreme court / US federal courts / US supreme courts, sure this is a possibility. However, the pre-requisite to going anywhere with appeals is FUNDING. Manhattan clubs have reportedly spent something like $25 million dollars over the last few years bringing state and federal appeals to NYC ordinances and state laws ... on top of free legal support from the ACLU and other organizations ... with limited success. That 25 mil did NOT include a trip to the US supreme court either. Where Ohio is concerned, so far Ohio clubs have ponied up far less than one million dollars total towards legal action, and the ACLU has stayed away from the issue with purpose.

anabella
10-08-2007, 12:04 PM
Agree with Melonie on this one. Even if by some miracle, enough valid signatures have been collected to put this on the ballot, it will not pass. Most girls in Ohio, at least at my club, are wearing a blindfold and sticking their fingers in their ears, hoping the tooth fairy will convince voters that stripping is morally ok. It won't happen. This is Ohio. The vast majority here believe that exposing your naked body is a sin and that having a strip club in your neighborhood means that your children will grow up to be drug addicts. There isn't a lot of logic here, just a lot of Bible thumping.

In addition, the club owners here do not have the money to try to bring this to court. They'll be better served to take out the dancers and turn their clubs into normal bars.

As sad as it is for those of us who earn our living within strip clubs, NO ONE GIVES A CRAP ABOUT US EXCEPT US. The guys who come into the club are not motivated to save their favorite hangout. They will bitch about it once it's gone, but they'll find a new bar to hang at. Those who are against us will write letters, hold picket signs, and go door to door to shut us down. There are many more of them than there are of us. We will go to jail for giving a contact dance, while they find new ways to shut down our clubs.

It may sound cynical but it's true. If it's not true, then show me the money and I'll find a lawyer to represent us.

Melonie
10-08-2007, 03:15 PM
The guys who come into the club are not motivated to save their favorite hangout. They will bitch about it once it's gone, but they'll find a new bar to hang at

Actually, the customers will wind up being 'winners' in this deal. After the new no contact law goes into effect, there will definitely still be girls who need money bad enough that they will risk breaking the law to get it. However, since the same legal penalties will apply for giving a contact lap dance under the new law as for giving a HJ, BJ or FS under state prostitution law, many of these girls are going to figure out that they face no additional legal risk but a whole lot more earnings potential by starting to provide 'contact' levels that far exceed current customer expectations.

Ironically, after this happens, it will be the 'extras' girls who will have a LOWER probability of being found guilty if/when they are busted. The reason of course will be that the extra income stemming from giving HJ's, BJ's and FS will enable them to retain high powered attorneys of their own, where dancers busted for merely giving a contact lap dance won't be earning enough money to finance their own competent legal defense and/or appeals.

Deogol
10-08-2007, 06:29 PM
The bar owners probably could make just as much money bringing in wet t-shirt contests with half the legal trouble.

This way they get a bunch of people in that wouldn't be "caught dead" in a strip club.

At least the ones doing it for money.

The ones wanting to be surrounded by hot chicks will simply go bikini behind a counter.

laplover69
10-09-2007, 03:46 AM
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/10/06/STRIPPER_RULING.ART_ART_10-06-07_A1_EA845PA.html?sid=101

laplover69
10-13-2007, 04:24 PM
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/10/13/STRIPPED_OFF.ART_ART_10-13-07_A1_GQ8609D.html?sid=101
http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=381054&Category=9&subCategoryID=0

Melonie
10-13-2007, 06:16 PM
from your link ...

(snip)"With a referendum campaign in shambles -- in part because former felons were paid to collect signatures in several counties -- a new state law tightening restrictions on adult-oriented businesses may take effect Monday or Tuesday.

Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner would trigger the new law if she declares that opponents have fallen short of the 241,366 valid signatures of registered voters needed to place the referendum on the Nov. 6 ballot. Monday is the deadline for county boards of election to send Brunner signature totals.

A legal challenge, most likely in federal court, may be the only thing that could stop the new restrictions from becoming Ohio law.

Both sides said yesterday that is a distinct possibility.

Sandy Theis, spokeswoman for the Vote No on Issue 1 Committee, said her group is not waving the white flag.

"This is not good news, but I still think it's too early to tell," she said.

Theis said as many as 50,000 signatures discarded by election officials are being contested.

"We always said if we failed here, we would challenge this on constitutional grounds."

Phil Burress, head of Citizens for Community Values, the Cincinnati-based group that prompted state lawmakers to pass the adult-business rules via a petition drive of its own, said he was glad to see the opposition campaign collapse.

"This is a common-sense law that's going to reduce crime," he said.

But Burress said he expects a "last-ditch effort by the sex industry to go to federal court. We're prepared for that, too."

"There's a lot at stake here. There's more than 600 adult businesses, not just strip clubs but the pornography stores and the massage parlors."

Burress said Citizens for Community Values will ask Brunner and county prosecutors to pursue legal charges against people who fraudulently collected signatures.

After a first round of signature collection, opponents of the sex-business law came up 116,000 short of the number needed to qualify for the ballot. About two of every three signatures, many of them collected through the Craig Group, a Columbus consulting company, were found to be invalid for a number of reasons, including people who weren't registered voters.

The committee then switched strategies and hired Labor Ready and other temporary-help agencies to collect more names. The agencies were paid about $200,000, Theis estimated, and eventually submitted nearly 231,000 additional names. Part of the total was a carryover from the Craig Group's effort.

This time, the results may be even worse, in part because circulators in several counties were found to be former felons. While ex-felons can vote after their parole period expires, an Ohio law adopted in 2006 permanently prohibits them from circulating petitions for candidates or issues."(snip)


This just gets more and more pathetic ... If the clubowners were serious about this they would have put up sufficient funds in the first place to make sure enough legitimate signatures were collected by the first deadline (if those signatures can be found among Ohio voters, that is !) - but they cheaped out. Then after passing the first deadline with insufficient signatures, they cheap out AGAIN. IMHO by next Tuesday the petition campaign will be officially trashed and the new law will take effect.

It then remains to be seen whether or not the clubowner will then FINALLY pony up the $1 million or so necessary to mount a federal appeal (doubtful), or whether they will simply let their dancers take the bust risk and then shell out a few bucks for bail money and plea bargains via the club's attorney.

Helle
10-17-2007, 06:33 PM
Just found this thread but.. Basically what Melonie said is right--People around here just don't generally care enough what happens to adult businesses.

That being said, club owners and attornies around Ohio are fucking incompetent. We have clubs here in town, Allure and Sirens come to mind, who are too busy pissing off the communities around them by bringing cops around and being fined for their neons to actually see that a law is being put down that will break them.

My club, Centerfolds, has had a mandatory tipout towards BACE every day from every stripper. We were all REQUIRED to sign up to vote (we had people come in to register us) sign multiple letters, petitions, go to BACE meetings.. And sadly, we were only one of two Columbus clubs to do this.

I'm so boiled about the greed and incompetence of local club owners to even rationally talk about this, haha.

Melonie
10-18-2007, 02:16 PM
I'm so boiled about the greed and incompetence of local club owners to even rationally talk about this, haha.

Agreed. Unfortunately, this won't be a laughing matter for Ohio dancers who will soon face the dilemma of doing 'legal' dances for WalMart pay versus doing 'extras' (which will carry the same legal penalty as doing a contact lap dance). Of course, the clubowners probably are laughing all the way to the bank, knowing that it will be the dancers and not themselves that bear the legal consequences, knowing that paying bail and retaining a local attorney to arrange busted dancer plea bargains will be far cheaper for them than bankrolling a federal appeal, and knowing that a more plentiful supply of 'extras' will bring in new customers.

Littlelo
10-18-2007, 03:28 PM
^^I'm not quite that cynical about it. Things will eventually settle down and our customers will get used to the law. Guys will still come in and spend money, our hustle will just have to change. My club started enforcing the new rules last night and I did just fine. I also think, in some cities, this law will eventually be ignored as so many others have been in the past. They'll enforce it for a few months then there will be an unspoken agreement that the city will look the other way and it will be business as usual. I think the bigger cities will be more concerned about keeping money coming into the community (conventions and the like) than they are about whether we're naked after midnight. Then, inevitably, a club will take it too far and we'll be back to square one.

WalMart pay is unlikely. The laws in my city used to be much, much more strict than they are now and girls actually did BETTER in those days. I'm upset about the censorship, I'm upset that my personal freedom is being limited, but I'm not worried about making money. There will always be bored guys who want to spend time with pretty ladies.

Helle
10-18-2007, 03:44 PM
Littlelo, this is the homestate of the CCV... I don't see Ohio looking the other way. And either way, I hope anger about it DOES NOT die down... Adult business et al. aside, this is such a ridiculous breach in constituionality and freedom of expression. So the law is telling me if I bare my breasts in a club, drug use will rise? Violence will rise? That I can't be trusted to walk around with my breasts exposed because society around me will become a blight? I'm a full grown adult as our the customers that come into my clubs. It's so ridiculous that my pussy and vagina need to be state-babysat.

laplover69
10-19-2007, 02:25 AM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071018/NEWS01/710180374

Melonie
10-19-2007, 06:45 AM
It's so ridiculous that my pussy and vagina need to be state-babysat.

The legal point that everybody seems to be stumbling over is that this law is NOT about restricting nudity per se. By the letter of the law, there isn't any restriction about a girl deciding to expose her breasts etc. for the hell of it. The restriction instead stems from regulation of commerce i.e. the state has the right to restrict a girl exposing her breasts for the purpose of making money !!!

This legal distinction i.e. the regulation of sexually oriented businesses versus the supposed restriction of first amendment free expression rights is the reason that a first amendment appeal by the clubowners will not go anywhere in the courts. If the dancer is getting tipped or selling private dances, the free expression isn't 'free' !

laplover69
10-20-2007, 04:51 AM
http://dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/10/19/COVERED_UP.ART_ART_10-19-07_B1_0187LV1.html?sid=101

Melonie
10-20-2007, 06:49 AM
from your link ...

(snip)"U.S. District Judge Solomon Oliver Jr. in Cleveland refused to grant a temporary restraining order sought by the Buckeye Association of Club Executives and other adult businesses. Oliver scheduled a hearing for Nov. 16 on the club owners' request for a preliminary injunction."(snip)

... which means that the new law IS in effect, and will remain in effect through the upcoming election. There is a tiny chance that an injunction will be granted after the Nov 16th hearing, but that's certainly not probable.


(snip)"The impact of the law, which took effect Wednesday, was being felt in clubs across the state, club owners said.

By late afternoon yesterday, Angela Bates de Gongora was sitting in the nearly empty Hustler Club she manages in Cleveland and fretting about how bad business might be.

With the new law in effect, Hustler and other adult entertainment clubs made swift changes in their operations.

"We're following all the new rules. The girls are wearing bikinis and they're not having any contact with customers," she said. "It's had a huge impact on our business. … There are fewer customers and they're not tipping or buying drinks for the girls.

"Just last night, I had several girls tell me they might quit. They're not making any money. All my dancers are terrified," she said. "They're afraid to come to work."

De Gongora said she had hoped that customers would come in after the Cleveland Indians-Boston Red Sox game to see their featured performer, Stormy Daniels, an adult-film star. Instead, the club probably would lose money last night.

The law enacted a no-touch rule for nude or semi-nude dancers and clamped a midnight closing time on all adult-oriented businesses."(snip)

... stand by for the inevitable fork in the road. One fork leads to rampant 'extras' and busts but with even greater earnings potential for the remaining dancers and clubs. The other fork leads to bankruptcy for the clubs and dancers who attempt to follow the new law.

Deogol
10-20-2007, 12:50 PM
So come the private "social" clubs.

Helle
10-20-2007, 02:43 PM
I might be wrong but I believe even private clubs - such as the swingers clubs in town and etc - are effected by this. They tried a 'private club' thing when the smoking ban went into effect and they managed to close the loopholes on that so... Private clubs would be just as illegal as the opens I suppose.

As for the loophole... I have a feeling the makers of this law know dancers and clubs will go broke or illegal--And they don't care. They seem to have this Sword Of Righteousness perception where, even if every club should go illegal, they think they will be able to go in and shut it down. In fact, I have no doubt they are HOPING every club will break the rules and be caught!

Melonie
10-20-2007, 07:24 PM
They seem to have this Sword Of Righteousness perception where, even if every club should go illegal, they think they will be able to go in and shut it down. In fact, I have no doubt they are HOPING every club will break the rules and be caught!

you've now hit on the deep dark secret here. Even the bible thumpers don't truly want to eradicate sexually oriented businesses any more than they want to eradicate 'the devil'. They just want them labeled with a criminal stigma so the bible thumpers can claim a moral triumph and continue their crusade (and fundraising). The politicians of course want the free publicity that will stem from club busts just prior to election season. Law enforcement / local gov't wants the new fine money along with the free publicity. Lawyers want the new legal fees. So the end result is that a 'legal' business winds up being transmuted into a tolerated 'illegal' business, with everybody EXCEPT the dancers benefiting from the new arrangement.

laplover69
10-22-2007, 12:56 AM
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/10/21/STRIPPERS.ART_ART_10-21-07_A1_4U87UTV.html?sid=101

Melonie
10-22-2007, 02:00 AM
^^^ yup, on that basis (clubowners telling dancers THEIR idea of what's legal) I give the local cops another week before some high profile busts happen. That timing would work out just right for big headlines during election week !!! Hey, at least the girls who are flagrantly breaking the no contact law are still earning enough money to afford paying for their own attorneys when the busts come down. I feel bad for the dancers who are trying to stay within the law and not earning much money, but who will be busted anyhow since their managers are feeding them incorrect info, since these girls stand the least chance of 'beating the rap' when the busts do occur.

But hey look on the bright side. Once the busted girls come to terms with the fact that they have a black mark from a de-facto 'sex crime' guilty plea on their permanent record, they stand to lose absolutely nothing additional by flagrantly breaking the law in the future ... or for that matter they stand to lose nothing additional by offering HJ's, BJ's etc. ... but they DO stand to earn lots more money, and perhaps beat the charge next time around by being able to afford to hire their own attorney !!!

Deogol
10-22-2007, 07:51 AM
The article reads like a bunch of smart asses who are about to find out being a smart ass doesn't really work.

Of course, I trust the media about as much as...

Let's be proud of America creating more criminals though! This is the land of the free motherfuckers and sure you could have done that in the past but this is now.

laplover69
10-22-2007, 07:33 PM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071022/NEWS01/710220377

laplover69
10-23-2007, 04:59 PM
From the FASCIST-THEOCRATS website (CCV)

http://www.ccv.org/20071710ccvperspective.aspx

Melonie
10-24-2007, 12:39 AM
^^^ yup, and without a restraining order, while this issue plods on through the federal courts, the new Ohio law will remain in force. Thus, ironically, by the time that any ultimate court ruling favoring Ohio strip clubs is handed down, a good portion of Ohio strip clubs will already be bankrupt and closed !

Deogol
10-24-2007, 07:35 PM
^^^ And it all can start over again.

You can never stamp out ignorance. Especially divine ignorance.

laplover69
10-25-2007, 03:16 AM
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/10/24/stripped.ART_ART_10-24-07_B1_01891EA.html?sid=101

http://blog.cleveland.com/wideopen/2007/10/antistrip_club_advocate_apathe.html

Melonie
10-25-2007, 02:16 PM
^^^ all of this smells like a setup for widespread busts immediately prior to the November local elections - to guarantee timely headlines.

Deogol
10-25-2007, 03:43 PM
^^^ Yep. Might as well take November off in OH!

laplover69
10-27-2007, 04:38 PM
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/10/26/ann26.ART_ART_10-26-07_B2_L089N0G.html?sid=101

Melonie
10-28-2007, 06:24 AM
from your link ...

(snip)"One man wrote that he wanted to agree with me but that he worries about how such businesses affect our society. I appreciate his thoughtfulness, but his viewpoint saddened me.

He wrote: "Unfortunately, that humanist ideal of a utopia where everyone does his or her own thing without victimizing others is sabotaged by the depravity of the human heart. We are living in a society with no truth, no moral absolutes, no value on human life, no dignity and ultimately no dream. How can we have laws?

"Keep your head down, don't make eye contact, lock your doors, avoid certain neighborhoods, mind your own business. If you are lucky, you will never live in a neighborhood where people of dubious morals and unknown perversions are coming to feed their ever-increasing appetites."

A retired law-enforcement officer made this observation: "The campus bars in this town are 100 times more trouble than the strip clubs. … In the campus area, there is no accountability and very little security. In the strip clubs, the owners and customers do everything they can to make sure they don't get attention. The security is very good."(snip)

Unfortunately, where the new anti-strip club law is concerned, all of these personal opinions are beside the point. Despite the local cop's personal opinion, if the local bible-thumpers complain, and/or if local mayor or D.A. issue a directive that clubs should be busted immediately prior to the upcoming election, that cop will have no choice but to carry out the busts !

laplover69
11-01-2007, 06:14 PM
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/11/01/rejected.html

Melonie
11-02-2007, 02:18 PM
^^^ IMHO this settles the issue. To proceed with additional legal appeals, the clubowners must now graduate from the tens of thousands in legal fees to bring cases in Ohio state courts to hundreds of of dollars in legal fees to bring cases in Federal circuit courts, followed by millions of dollars in legal fees to bring federal appeals / supreme court appeal. There's no way that the clubowners are going to pony up this kind of legal retainer cash ... they'd rather spring for bailing out their dancers $500 at a time and cutting plea bargain deals on behalf of their dancers for $500 in legal fees to some local retainer. Unfortunately, while this means more money left in the clubowner's pocket and essentially zero chances of charges being brought against clubowners, it does nothing to ameliorate the fact that dancers will wind up with misdemeanor 'sex crime' de-facto guilty pleas on their permanent records.

PS next week is election week, so THIS weekend (and specifically, this saturday night) pose the highest risk of club busts taking place in Ohio clubs under the new law. This will be particularly true now that the clubowner's appeal re next week's ballot has been axed by an Ohio state judge.

laplover69
11-04-2007, 07:27 AM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071103/NEWS02/711030332

Richard_Head
11-04-2007, 09:10 AM
I feel for all the Ohioans, I also fear that this will now embolden more lunatics in other states to take similar action. Seems to me that this would qualify as (as Melanie would put it) a law of unintended consequences, too many 'moral' voters voting in the 'moral' candidates, too many 'moral' elected officials then appointing 'moral' judges. It saddens me, why don't more people vote (and not just once every four years)???

Melonie
11-04-2007, 10:48 AM
^^^ as the Ohio ballot issue pointed out, a LOT of people do try to cast their vote (or sign a petition as a registered voter) when in fact they are not legally entitled to vote ! This may be because they are residing in the US illegally, because they have been convicted of a felony etc. Normally the actual legal status of people claiming to be registered voters is not verified. However, in this specific case, due to the strong organized opposition to the petition drive and announced intention of lawsuits challenging the validity of petition signatories, the status of petition signatories WAS verified by the state of Ohio. Had no verification taken place, as is usually the case in general elections, the result of the petition drive would have been very different !

This is becoming a 'sore subject' in more and more locations lately. Just this week New York governor Eliot Spitzer has attempted to announce a plan which will issue NY driver's licenses to illegal aliens. And with that driver's license, thanks to federal Motor Voter laws every illegal alien obtaining a driver's license will also be given a voter registration form. Thus if this plan goes forward, the only thing that an illegal alien residing in New York needs to do is to sign a state form at the polls which 'swears' that he is a citizen of New York state, and he's eligible to vote ... with no state or federal law requiring that his legal / citizenship status actually be verified.

laplover69
11-11-2007, 02:31 AM
I doubt very seriously that this law will or can be practically enforced UNIFORMLY statewide. I suspect the majority of Police Chiefs will take the stance that taxpayers $$$ should be utilized for far more serious issues like murders, etc.... Of course the CCV will refute this and claim strip clubs are the root of all evil and attempt to link the clubs with higher crime, etc. through their outdated/irrelevant and misguided "secondary effects" studies. Most Police Chiefs know better! I do think this maybe enforced in areas of the state where the CCV has a strong presence such as the Columbus, Cincinnati areas.... Will see!

Deogol
11-11-2007, 02:38 PM
I do believe the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way.

The republican party is falling apart - Falwell is dead and Ralph Reed is busy putting money in his pocket with a consultancy these days.

The muslim extremists are giving religion a worse name than the abortion doctor shooters and clinic bombers.

I have thought about some stuff and wonder if anyone has ever approached these fights with their divisions already behind them. If you come up to me (a Lutheran) saying "The Baptists are attempting to legislate morality" I would be like "them fucking baptists!"

Even better is when one comes upon someone agnostic or better yet - non-denominational/atheist - the question is reformed from "Do you like strip clubs" to "Do you wish this group of people to enforce their morality upon you?"

Everyone I speak with is feeling the pinch of freedom slipping by. Make the questions "Do you fear being arrested in a strip club? Do you wish more of your freedom's destroyed?"

Leave the answers blank - people will come up with some hum-dingers in their mind and convince themselves.

laplover69
11-16-2007, 04:46 AM
Truly yet another FASCIST-THEOCRATIC view from a loony newspaper columnist... This "secondary effects" b.s. is often JUST a GUISE from the religious zealouts to further promote their ideas of a Utopian world in our FREE? and pluralistic society. What a shame!
http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/MichaelJohnson/2007/11/15/children_won,_strip_clubs_zero

Melonie
11-16-2007, 05:01 AM
^^^ regardless of principles or values, what this opinion does represent is the view of less than 6% of registered Ohio voters. Otherwise, the issue would have 'counted' when voted on during recent state-wide elections. What it also represents is that the Ohio strip club regulation group had deep pocket support, whereas the Ohio clubowners and dancers did not.

laplover69
11-17-2007, 03:08 PM
http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071116/UPDATES01/71116026/1002/

Melonie
11-17-2007, 04:49 PM
^^^ your news blurb didn't mention that the federal judge had issued a stay order banning the enforcement of the new Ohio law.

Without a stay order, all of the legal machinations in the world don't change anything. Without a stay order, the new law will remain in force despite the fact that the clubowners and the State of Ohio may bring suits, appeals, and ever higher appeals potentially stretching this legal battle out over a period of several years. It would not surprise me a bit that the Ohio Attorney General will push this issue all the way to the US Supreme Court in an attempt to have this new law upheld. Thus the situation degenerates to a battle of wallets, with one side financed by all Ohio taxpayers, and with the other side financed by Ohio clubowners and dancers. Unless the clubowners and dancers are willing to pony up several million dollars worth of legal fees, they are destined to lose. Even if the Ohio clubowners and dancers do decide to invest millions of dollars, they could STILL lose.

Based on my past experience with the pragmatic nature of clubowners, and their lack of success in having a stay order issued at the first stage of federal litigation, I am still of the opinion that the Ohio clubowners are going to 'walk away' if they lose this first federal court case. They KNOW that the Ohio Attorney General is not going to back down. They also know that their own club revenues have been suffering since the new law went into effect. Their accountants are also undoubtedly telling them that, without a stay order, there simply isn't any way that an investment of several million dollars in legal fees will EVER be paid back.

The clubowners in New York have been through this song and dance too ... but they were smart enough to 'buy' the judge during their first federal court challenge, and as a result a stay order was granted. Thus if the State of New York wants to drag the appeals process on and on for years or even decades, the New York clubowners are still earning money in the meantime while the appeals go from court to court. This is NOT the case for the Ohio clubowners, since no stay order has been issued thus the new law stays in force and clubowners' / dancers' earnings remain reduced throughout the appeals process.

laplover69
11-18-2007, 06:00 PM
http://www.wlwt.com/news/14620115/detail.html

liberator
11-19-2007, 05:10 AM
The law must be strickened. Linz will tear Scott Berghold up in Court. There are no negative secondary effects with adult entertainment only positive effects. Google 1997 Fulton County Secondary Effects Studies. The 11th Circuit stricken Fulton's Ban on nudity in bars in the case of Flanigans Ent V Fulton County based on Fulton's Study which showed absolutely no negative effects with adult entertainment establishments.

Helle
11-19-2007, 01:07 PM
Too bad the Ohio chapter of ACE cann't hire competent workers/lawyers and consistently lets monkeys do the jobs.

laplover69
11-19-2007, 03:04 PM
The law must be strickened. Linz will tear Scott Berghold up in Court. There are no negative secondary effects with adult entertainment only positive effects. Google 1997 Fulton County Secondary Effects Studies. The 11th Circuit stricken Fulton's Ban on nudity in bars in the case of Flanigans Ent V Fulton County based on Fulton's Study which showed absolutely no negative effects with adult entertainment establishments.


Too bad that a Christian conservative group CCV bullied the Ohio Politicians into believing their b.s. when clearly the "secondary effects" studies they use are JUST a moral guise and are often OUTDATED and IRRELEVANT to the cities/states in question. The largest SCIENTIFIC "secondary effects" study conducted by Dr. Linz was done in Fort Wayne, Indiana and found NONE of the CCV'S claims of higher crime, lower property values, etc. Will be interesting to see how the judge rules on this one, at least he allowed Linz's testimony. Scott Bergthold makes his LIVING off of bilking taxpayers of cities/states under his usually bogus, outdated, irrelevant "secondary effects" b.s. :(

laplover69
11-19-2007, 03:29 PM
Maybe some damaging testimony from a former "stripper"? Perhaps she received a payment from the CCV??

http://www.ohio.com/news/ap?articleID=228001&c=y

Melonie
11-20-2007, 10:02 AM
^^^ it doesn't matter whether she was paid off or not. What DOES matter is that the judge has only set aside 2 days for testimony ... that today is day 2 ... and that it's going to be nearly impossible to discredit this witness' testimony by the end of the day !

You can chalk this up to Ohio clubowners 'cheaping out' on legal representation, and in turn getting exactly what they paid for ...

As to secondary effects studies, one huge loophole that the CCV can use is that local municipalities' failure to prosecute dancers for prostitution and/or drugs does not mean that the 'crimes' of prostitution and drug use aren't occurring regularly. Thus all of the secondary effects studies based on trial and conviction statistics that tend to show rather low levels of 'crime' among dancers can be argued away as being the result of municipalities' failure to prosecute.

laplover69
11-20-2007, 02:29 PM
^^^ it doesn't matter whether she was paid off or not. What DOES matter is that the judge has only set aside 2 days for testimony ... that today is day 2 ... and that it's going to be nearly impossible to discredit this witness' testimony by the end of the day !

You can chalk this up to Ohio clubowners 'cheaping out' on legal representation, and in turn getting exactly what they paid for ...

As to secondary effects studies, one huge loophole that the CCV can use is that local municipalities' failure to prosecute dancers for prostitution and/or drugs does not mean that the 'crimes' of prostitution and drug use aren't occurring regularly. Thus all of the secondary effects studies based on trial and conviction statistics that tend to show rather low levels of 'crime' among dancers can be argued away as being the result of municipalities' failure to prosecute.

All true Melonie, however if most LOCAL municipalities refuse to prosecute, it means they have HIGHER PRIORITIES than enforcing some silly no-touch law etc. If Police Chiefs were to prioritize silly laws like this, their would be public outrage and calls for firing the Chiefs for wasting TAX DOLLARS on issues like this. Furthermore, STATEWIDE laws on issues like "obscenity standards" are extremely rare, rather it is left up to each community/ city to decide... aka The People vs. Larry Flynt. I don't see the strip club issue here being that much different than this, thus I think the judge will and should grant an injunction against STATEWIDE enforcement, and leave it up to the LOCAL cities/communities to decide for themselves. Cleveland/Toledo areas are much more liberal than the Cincinnati/Columbus areas...