Log in

View Full Version : Lets get gas prices down!!



Pages : 1 [2]

doc-catfish
05-01-2007, 06:05 PM
OK so... I just got this in an email what do you guys think of this idea??

I think I just debunked that idea about 23 posts earlier in this very thread. ::)

And while I'm no fan of the current administration, the claim about a national average of 96 cent a gallon gasoline around the time of Bush's 1st inauguration is also rubbish. Every source I could find states it was more in the $1.40-$1.60 range. Even the Democratic party website says this.

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/05/republicans_ign.php

What I love about the contents of these chain letters is that they prey on our idiotic sense of entitlement. They are high on finger pointing at remote entities and low (more like nonexistent) on telling the ugly truth. Namely the fact that there is no way for consumers to lower the price of gasoline without enduring some degree of sacrifice themselves.

If you want gas prices to make a smaller dent in your pocketbook then do as I suggested earlier and find some means to USE LESS. If instead we're all going to go about with our commute 45 minutes to work on a traffic congested freeway, use the drive-thru lane, leave the car idling while going into the store for an expresso, nacho Doritos and cigarettes sort of lifestyle then lets quit our whining, because those lifestyle choices are a large part of the problem. Cheap gasoline is not a birthright.

Jay Zeno
05-01-2007, 06:36 PM
If you want gas prices to make a smaller dent in your pocketbook then do as I suggested earlier and find some means to USE LESS. Indeed. I'm no economist, but I did hear some strange words about "supply and demand" in macroeconomics in college.

Demand goes down (use less gas) and
Supply goes up (gas supplies are unsold) and
Price goes down (producers unload supplies)

Want to make a difference? Like doc says. Drive less. When you drive, consume less. In fact, you'll see the difference immediately. You'll be buying less, hence spending less.

Roulette
05-01-2007, 07:03 PM
I dont drive. I never have. I rely on public transportation or friends. I just posted these because I thought they were interesting. And sorry I missed some posts, I rely on that little "view first unread" thiny and it takes me to where I thought was the end of the last thing I read, obviously I was wrong. uhm, my bad?

Yekhefah
05-01-2007, 07:06 PM
Want to make a difference? Like doc says. Drive less. When you drive, consume less. In fact, you'll see the difference immediately. You'll be buying less, hence spending less.

But... but... this is AMERICA, dammit! We want our fucking Hummers and we want to drive them two blocks to the video store and another block to idle in the drive-thru at McDonald's EVERY DAY! WE WANT WE WANT WE WANT! Who are you to say we should (ugh) WALK like some third-world urchin? What are you, some kind of hippie communist?

virgoamm
05-01-2007, 07:16 PM
Yeah, but that would only be feasible if more cities in the U.S. had better public transportation. :( You literally cannot survive here without a vehicle, everything is so sprawled out.

Jay Zeno
05-01-2007, 08:54 PM
What are you, some kind of hippie communist?
I think I've run across a person or two who think so. ;) Actually, I think I'm being conservative, if you ponder the root word "conserve."


Yeah, but that would only be feasible if more cities in the U.S. had better public transportation. :( You literally cannot survive here without a vehicle, everything is so sprawled out.

Sure, if you have to drive, you have to drive. And a northeast coaster can sneer at a mountain zone city for not having comparable public transportation, when the infrastructure and density and cost present a completely different dynamic.

If you have to drive, then you do. But it's a fact that we drive a lot when we don't have to. It's a fact that most of us can drive less, or arrange fewer trips, or that most of us could use more fuel-efficient cars. All of that would cut down on the consumption, thereby decreasing demand, thereby increasing supply, thereby lowering cost.

As doc said, it involves some sacrifice. Driving less means more personal energy to walk or bike or more patience to combine trips or less convenience in general. More fuel efficiency means less of that engine's rush of power. And we're a self-indulgent society. That's not a critique, just the fact. Actually doing something personally is a bitch.

Danielle_4370
05-01-2007, 11:02 PM
I dont drive. I never have. I rely on public transportation or friends.
God, you're lucky. I love the public transportation system in DC. You can get almost anywhere. Here, anytime someone mentions public transportation, we complain about the noise and the cost. Then we demand someone do something about the traffic.
I swear, if we had our way, Southern California would be one big freeway.

To take the sting out of the high prices (cause I don't like spending $50 a tank for my Honda, no matter how long it lasts), I got a Shell Credit Card, cause it gives me a 5% rebate on all gas I buy there. So I guess, in a way, I'm boycotting all the other gas stations, but only because they cost more.

The whole gas price thing is a misdirection from the real problem. The mass consumption of energy and expulsion of pollutants caused by the big cars we demand is getting so bad, it's nearly criminal. And while I love hybrids, I don't understand why the car companies are insisting on making hybrid SUVs that make a minimal impact on fuel efficiency, instead of reducing SUV production and putting more effort into hybrid (or other fuel alternatives) sedans.

I, for one, (she says, putting on her asbestos suit in preparation for the responding flames:duck: ) applaud the hike in gas prices, because it makes everyone more conscious about how they use this resource.

DylanAngel
05-02-2007, 01:05 AM
^^^We're actually looking at a hybrid for my next car.

What pisses me off is the people who complain about the price of a hybrid, saying that the decrease in gas usage doesn't make up for the extra money.

It's all about looking at the bigger picture to me.

BTW, I'm hoping to get a Nissan Altima Hybrid. Went to browse the other day and they don't look like bubbles as the other ones do.

Melonie
05-02-2007, 03:45 AM
ultimately, oil and gasoline is a worldwide commodity. Thus the price of oil is a function of global supply and demand levels. For a fact, China and India are increasing their gasoline consumption by leaps and bounds due to the manufacture of humdreds of thousands of cheap small cars which (thanks to outsourcing of former US and european jobs) Chinese and Indian businessmen and skilled workers can now afford to buy for the first time in history. Unless Americans can reduce gasoline consumption by an amount greater than the Chinese and Indians gasoline consumption is increasing, the price of oil is NOT going to come down.

On the supply side, the US used to be able to bypass a world market 'bidding war' by striking sweetheart deals with North and South American neighbors. However, the largest of these, Mexico's Cartarell oil field, is now in rapid decline. And our neighbor Hugo Chavez just yesterday nationalized control over all oil facilities in Venezuela, which will now put the USA directly against China in bidding for all future Venezuelan oil. Of course, US domestic production has been in decline since the 70's ... and environmental laws prevent pumping of known oil reserves off all three American coasts to augment domestic oil supplies.

Additionally, as a worldwide commodity, oil is also bought and sold in many different currencies. At one time the US dollar was the only currency used, but lately the Iranians and others have begun to price their oil in Euros or Yen. As a result, any move in the US dollar exchange rate (which has dropped 10% against the Euro in the last few months) now means an immediate increase in the the US dollar denominated price of oil.

'Refining costs' i.e. the costs of ethanol fuel additive etc. are now far higher than they were when MBTE was legal - which I have discussed in previous posts in this thread. US federal, state and local gasoline taxes are also far higher now - as also discussed in previous posts in this thread. While these don't have any relationship to the price of oil, they have a MAJOR impact on the price of blended gasoline at the pump.

~

Esco!
05-02-2007, 06:08 AM
Its bad here in Toronto also :(



Time to get a flex-car perhaps

krchab99
05-02-2007, 06:16 AM
If ANY kind of boycott would work, wouldn't it be more effective to just channel one of the more powerful companies....I don't know but lets say Exxon - nobody buys Exxon for like two months.......exxon would have to drop their price and everyone would go back go getting exxon so the other people would have to drop their price too?

Mind you I know absolutely nothing about that industry.

very smart pooka i did not even think of that and that seems very effective.

Roulette
05-02-2007, 07:15 AM
Melonie, I really appreciate your input!! Thanks!

Melonie
05-02-2007, 09:33 AM
believe me I'm no particular fan of 'big oil'. However, mainstream media has allowed a tremendous amount of disinformation to circulate on the subject of gasoline prices i.e. which aspects are responsible for what sort of price increases. Last time I checked the average oil company's profit margin was something less than 10%, with the cost of oil being just about half of the pump price of gasoline. Thus if all of the oil company profits were totally confiscated, this would really only reduce the price of gasoline by 5%.

Fuel refining (and additive) costs, however have gone from comprising 12% of the price of gasoline in January 2006 (the last month that MBTE was legal) to something on the order of 30% today, arguably causing an 18% increase in the price of gasoline. This was primarily because of laws being passed outlawing MBTE and requiring the use of ethanol as a fuel additive instead, combined with the fact that no new oil refinery construction permits have been issued in the last 25 years due to environmental objections. Whatever the relative merits of environmental policies re ethanol, new refineries etc. those environmental policies DO have a cost ... but a cost that is seldom if ever publicized by mainstream media.

And of course the LAST cost component you'll ever see in mainstream media is federal / state / local gasoline tax increases ! Any tax that is percentage based has raked in a windfall of extra tax dollars as the price of gasoline has gone up.


On the subject of fuel efficient cars, even more efficient than hybrids are the small turbodiesels sold in Europe and Asia. Some of these get in excess of 50mpg for real, and do not have the $5000 or so per vehicle price premium that hybrids are able to charge. However, thanks to new US environmental laws re sulfur content in diesel fuel and sulfur emissions from diesel engines, almost none of these already mass produced vehicles can be imported into the USA !

I would buy one of these in a NY minute if they were to be available for sale in the USA ...


... but the way the US regs are written, truck diesel emission limits are pretty low but car diesel emission limits are very tight ... meaning that you can buy a diesel SUV but not a fuel efficient diesel small car. (exception is Volkswagen, for the moment at least)

Bella21
05-02-2007, 09:59 AM
But... but... this is AMERICA, dammit! We want our fucking Hummers and we want to drive them two blocks to the video store and another block to idle in the drive-thru at McDonald's EVERY DAY! WE WANT WE WANT WE WANT! Who are you to say we should (ugh) WALK like some third-world urchin? What are you, some kind of hippie communist?

LMAO! HAHA! ;D

I'm not saying that people should sell their cars and run out and buy a hybrid (who can/wants to afford that anyways?)... But, for the LOVE OF GOD people, stop buying NEW hummers! What, do you have a lot of kids? Do you need to carry sports equipment? Fine. Buy a station wagon. Seriously, the number of people who actually NEED a hummer (if there are any) is probably this *squishes thumb and index finger together* big.
/rant

Gas is almost $4 NOW... It's probably going to be almost $5 here this summer.

BrunetteGoddess
05-02-2007, 10:11 AM
Yeah, but that would only be feasible if more cities in the U.S. had better public transportation. :( You literally cannot survive here without a vehicle, everything is so sprawled out.

Exactly. Public transportation doesn't come out to where I live; I'm about 20 miles from the farthest stop they have. The freeway is also the only way to get into town really from here as well. Cars are a must.

BmiWMT14
05-02-2007, 11:52 AM
I LOVE my VW Jetta TDi thank you very much. 51mpg on the Highway, and 44 around town. I just dont understand by american car companies do not embrace the Diesel.

Roulette
05-02-2007, 12:01 PM
^^ or why they arent pushing for people to buy cars that arent powered by oil... peak oil will be here soon enough. I think we should start trying to market solar powered cars, but thats just me... I mean it's free and it isnt going to run out. I guess those are the reasons why right there. lame... but what do I know?

Yekhefah
05-02-2007, 01:22 PM
They'll come out with solar-powered cars when Exxon figures out how to make several hundred billion a year charging us for use of the sun.

Roulette
05-02-2007, 01:47 PM
^^^ pffft haha. pretty much.

Esco!
05-02-2007, 01:52 PM
for the LOVE OF GOD people, stop buying NEW hummers!
You wait till the next recession hits us, those people wont be able to give their
gas-guzzling SUV's away

Melonie
05-02-2007, 01:52 PM
I think we should start trying to market solar powered cars, but thats just me... I mean it's free and it isnt going to run out. I guess those are the reasons why right there. lame... but what do I know?

Well you can essentially buy an electric powered car right now ... ... which sells for something over $80k ... along with a 25kW solar panel system with storage batteries to charge the car at night for another $80k. Yes the solar power is free, but the equipment needed to collect it and convert it is very expensive. And despite major research efforts over the past 10 years, the price is still extremely high in comparison to the energy units produced. So where the typical 5 year loan car payment on a diesel Volkswagen might run $700 a month, the typical 5 year loan monthly payment on a Tesla plus a solar power system would run about $3000 ! You can buy a hell of a lot of diesel fuel for $2300 a month !

Esco!
05-02-2007, 01:53 PM
I just dont understand by american car companies do not embrace the Diesel.
Because they are slow as hell

Melonie
05-02-2007, 01:59 PM
^^^ again the American auto manufacturers don't have any problems promoting diesel engines. However, because of the two tiered US diesel exhaust emissions standards, the diesels that Detroit is promoting are all in trucks and SUV's. Those same two tiered diesel exhaust emission standards are keeping out almost all small car diesel engines which are routinely sold in the European and Asian market.

The problem is that in Europe the total amount of emissions is what counts, whereas in America the emissions are measured as a percentage of engine horsepower. This means that in Europe the gov't is much happier with a 100hp diesel car engine that puts out 1/3rd as much emissions as a 500hp diesel truck engine because pollution is reduced by 1/3rd, but in America the 100hp diesel car engine emissions can't exceed 1/5th of the emissions of a 500hp diesel truck engine (or some such nonsense). Meeting US diesel car emissions standards requires detuning of the engine (i.e. less horsepower) plus expensive catalytic converters plus a testing program. And as Esco points out, American automotive culture still hasn't changed to the point where automakers are willing to risk the small diesel engine research and marketing investment as long as Americans are still looking for 200-300hp engines in new cars and SUV's !


You wait till the next recession hits us, those people wont be able to give their
gas-guzzling SUV's away

You're probably right. However, if you look at the total cost of ownership i.e. the original purchase plus repair costs plus insurance costs plus fuel costs over the entire useful life of a vehicle (which in the case of a Hummer is like 250,000 miles, versus only 100,000 miles for a hybrid) there really isn't all that much difference. This is especially true for those hybrids which have now exceeded the 'head count' for federal tax subsidies, meaning that the prospective owner must pony up an extra $4000 purchase price instead of other taxpayers.

~

BmiWMT14
05-02-2007, 02:01 PM
Because they are slow as hell

You should take a ride in one of the modern Turbo diesel vehicles. Not only are they not slow they have quite a bit of zip. The 2006 jetta was just under 22,000, and the payments are right around 425 a month.

Esco!
05-02-2007, 02:06 PM
You should take a ride in one of the modern Turbo diesel vehicles. Not only are they not slow they have quite a bit of zip. The 2006 jetta was just under 22,000, and the payments are right around 425 a month.
You might be right I havent driven a Turbo Volkswagen since High school.
That car was incredibly slow, maybe technology as improved like you said.

I also had a 'runaway diesel' once, not a lot of fun let me tell you :eek:
(google it)

Melonie
05-02-2007, 02:14 PM
from msn ...

(snip)"(Note that VW won't sell 2007 diesel models of its small cars. The reason: The current, 1.9-liter turbocharged direct injection 4-cylinder diesel engine in the cars doesn't meet new U.S. limits for nitrogen oxide emissions. Thus, VW officials kicked up production of their 2006 diesel-powered small cars so U.S. dealers will be able to keep selling them on into the 2007 model year, according to a VW of America Inc. spokesman. These cars just won't be labeled as 2007s. The spokesman said this is a stopgap measure until the 2008 model year when VW will debut a new, common rail diesel engine.)

Also, buyers need to check that diesel vehicles are sold in their states. Five states—California, Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine and New York—don't allow sales of diesel consumer vehicles because of emission regulations."(snip)

from

Roulette
05-02-2007, 02:17 PM
Well you can essentially buy an electric powered car right now ... http://www.teslamotors.com ... which sells for something over $80k ... along with a 25kW solar panel system with storage batteries to charge the car at night for another $80k. Yes the solar power is free, but the equipment needed to collect it and convert it is very expensive. And despite major research efforts over the past 10 years, the price is still extremely high in comparison to the energy units produced. So where the typical 5 year loan car payment on a diesel Volkswagen might run $700 a month, the typical 5 year loan monthly payment on a Tesla plus a solar power system would run about $3000 ! You can buy a hell of a lot of diesel fuel for $2300 a month !

hmm... I didnt even consider that. thanks.

Melonie
05-02-2007, 02:25 PM
^^^ and even if your forego the solar charger setup and purchase electricity from a local utility to charge the Tesla overnight, you're still looking at a $1500 a month car payment plus an extra $100+ a month in your electric bill. Again you can buy one hell of a lot of gasoline or diesel fuel for the $900 a month difference !

Roulette
05-02-2007, 02:42 PM
^^^ Everyone tells me I should drive and I'm too old not to be driving, but I really dont see why I should be driving... until I really do need to drive I dont want to pay so much a month for things I dont feel I need. le sigh.

britt244
05-02-2007, 02:45 PM
I LOVE my VW Jetta TDi thank you very much. 51mpg on the Highway, and 44 around town. I just dont understand by american car companies do not embrace the Diesel.

i have a jetta 1.8t and it doesnt use diesel... im confused.

Esco!
05-02-2007, 03:04 PM
i have a jetta 1.8t and it doesnt use diesel... im confused.
I think thats because the 1.8T comes in diesel as well as gasoline engines

britt244
05-02-2007, 03:13 PM
^^ haha, ok, thanks! :P

Danielle_4370
05-04-2007, 07:47 AM
... people who actually NEED a hummer (if there are any) is probably this *squishes thumb and index finger together* big.

I always thought Hummer owners were compensating for something!}:D

Bella21
05-04-2007, 08:17 AM
Yeah, but that would only be feasible if more cities in the U.S. had better public transportation. :( You literally cannot survive here without a vehicle, everything is so sprawled out.

Yea, I love San Fransisco... I LOVE the BART! ;D Okay, but that's a different story...

San Diego's working on itself with the trolley and the Coaster and the Sprinter that they're putting up... But why don't WE get a subway? :(

Roulette
05-04-2007, 10:05 AM
Yea, I love San Fransisco... I LOVE the BART! ;D Okay, but that's a different story...

San Diego's working on itself with the trolley and the Coaster and the Sprinter that they're putting up... But why don't WE get a subway? :(

Someone told me the ground was too unstable because of plate shifts or something, couldda been lying I think I was told this when I was like 8 or 9, so it's a little out dated and someone couldda been lying to a kid (I know, right, who lies to kids?! haha bastards!!)

Melonie
05-04-2007, 03:56 PM
not meaning to cause controversy, but the conclusion of whether people love public transportation or not is usually directly proportional to the degree to which public transportation fares are subsidized by other taxes / taxpayers. In New York a significant potion of the 62 cents per gallon in state / local gasoline taxes is shifted to reduce subway / public transportation fares, as are some portion of local property taxes and sales taxes. Some portion of state / NYC income taxes are also shifted to pay down public transportation muni bonds. It is guesstimated that if these subsidies did not exist that subway / public transportation fares would have to more than double in order to cover their true costs of operation.

Roulette
05-04-2007, 04:59 PM
^^^ Interesting, I never considered the funding of public transportation. Thanks! I love the things you have to say, you're a huge asset in this community Melonie! I just read a thread about personal in home safes that you talked about, very helpful and informational! thanks a lot!!!

Casual Observer
05-05-2007, 05:11 AM
In New York a significant potion of the 62 cents per gallon in state / local gasoline taxes is shifted to reduce subway / public transportation fares, as are some portion of local property taxes and sales taxes. Some portion of state / NYC income taxes are also shifted to pay down public transportation muni bonds.

Massachusetts does the same thing, only it extends down to excise taxes and vehicle registration fees. Even with that, they just effectively doubled the fares this year. And yet, the MBTA is still $5 billion in the red.


Unless Americans can reduce gasoline consumption by an amount greater than the Chinese and Indians gasoline consumption is increasing, the price of oil is NOT going to come down.


When you say this to people, however, their faces just kind of glaze over, as if oil was as common as nitrogen in the air and only Americans used it. No concept of what passes for global consumption of a very limited resource. The easy answer gets all the attention:

George W Bush is t3h d3ph1L!!!One!!111!!eleventyone!!!!11

Melonie
05-05-2007, 09:08 AM
^^^ Interesting, I never considered the funding of public transportation.

neither have most politicians !!! Nor have most big city users of public transportation, or suburban / rural state residents that don't have much public transportation available. In New York, the $2 subway fare paid by city residents actually contributes something less than 40% of the city's actual cost of building / operating / maintaining the subway system. The 'missing' $3 dollars and change needed to break even on subway operations is collected from (typically) suburban and rural homeowners, gasoline buyers, etc. ... many of whom never use the NY subway ... and most of which aren't even aware that they are collectively paying more per subway ride than the person actually riding the subway !!!

Of course the political dreams of ubiquitous public transportation quickly falls on its collective ass if and when the actual costs of public transportation must be paid by the people making use of that public transportation. If NY City was to increase the subsidized $2 subway fare to the $5.50-$6.00 level that a subway ride actually costs, there would be widespread revolt !!!

Roulette
05-05-2007, 10:27 AM
Melonie, I'm curious tho in NY you just have one fare to pay and you can go anywhere right? (this is what I've been told, but i dont remember when or by whom) Here in DC min is $1.35 and if you go from say one end of the red line to the other it's I think about $4. Do you know anything about our funding? I tried to look into it but i havent been able to get anywhere.

DancerWealth
05-15-2007, 09:39 AM
I think I just debunked that idea about 23 posts earlier in this very thread. ::)

Here's actually a more detailed article on why this won't work:

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/Exxon.HTML

The thing everyone needs to understand is that boycotts against industries that we are so locked into is an insignificant means of protesting. It's no different than a young child throwing a tantrum and saying, "If I don't get my way I'm going to hold my breath!" As adults we know that this threat is worthless because the child will eventually have to take a breath. The SAME thing is true here. Boycotting one company or boycotting on a certain day is a worthless, idle threat. If you want to get your gas prices lowered, start looking to sources where you can actually having an impact and petition your politicians to stop taking so much money per gallon of gas in taxes.



And while I'm no fan of the current administration, the claim about a national average of 96 cent a gallon gasoline around the time of Bush's 1st inauguration is also rubbish.

Agreed. In Las Vegas, I remember back when gas went north of $1.00 a gallon and that was my senior year in high-school making it 1988/89. It was a different Bush in the White House and then a Democrat for eight years thereafter.

Paris
05-15-2007, 02:58 PM
We should just start using solar power. Corn sounds nice and earthy and woo hoo environmental but it's just as bad as oil (maybe not really seeing as I dont see a war starting over corn, but it's still pretty bad) Why cant we just have solar cars?!

Because the technology just isn't there yet. Maybe in 20-30 years...

This is where I get my fuel:
Sequential Biofuels (http://www.sqbiofuels.com/)

No conversion necessary.

Melonie
05-15-2007, 03:57 PM
Melonie, I'm curious tho in NY you just have one fare to pay and you can go anywhere right? (this is what I've been told, but i dont remember when or by whom) Here in DC min is $1.35 and if you go from say one end of the red line to the other it's I think about $4. Do you know anything about our funding? I tried to look into it but i havent been able to get anywhere.

As to the fare structure, that is probably locally originated.

As to funding sources, first of all is a 'stealth tax' of 2.8 cents per gallon of gasoline sold in America that gets reallocated to pay for public transportation systems. See

Next is direct grants of US federal tax money to DC public transportation. See

Less 'transparent' is the use of 'block grants to cities' money, which are large blocks of cash paid for by federal tax money but handed over to cities such that city officials can then spend this money as they choose.

Even less 'transparent' is the reallocation of local property tax / sales tax money.

Farrah_Holiday
05-15-2007, 05:47 PM
gas prices are supposed to go up to 4$ in the summer

Yikes !:O I'm paying $3.65 now !

I got gas last night, so I could join in the boycott today.

Lysondra
05-15-2007, 05:50 PM
^ That's really silly. I never understood that. My mum did it too. "I have to get gas TODAY so I don't get it tomorrow!" Which means everyone just ends up buying it the day before anyway and making the oil company money anyway. Useful!