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missjzone
06-24-2007, 06:50 AM
I didn't say Palestine didn't exist (in fact I have repeatedly referred to Palestine in this thread). I said that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian." That's not even an Arabic word. The area was renamed after the Philistines when the Romans changed the name of Judea to undermine Jewish authority in the region. Since then the region has been known as Palestine but its inhabitants identified as Jews, or Arabs, or members of their tribes, etc. but "Palestinian" was not a designation for any group. In the 1960's Yasser Arafat began using that term as a political ploy. It worked.

OMG do all you guys get the same brainwashing? Its like all you were taught to say this as I've heard it so many times and it still doesnt make any sense. OK. by your description there is no such thing as an Palestinian today because they havent always defined themselves as Palestinian? Well Arabs both christians and Muslims, have lived in Palestine for centuries and still live therr today. They have maintained a common culture and society in that same land for those same centuries. Does that not make them a cultural group with a national identity? If you claim no then you would have to say the same thing about Americans. As Americans are a culture that grew their national identity around their common land and society. The same could be said about Israeli's. Were there Israeli's in 1935? NO. No there was not. Are there Israeli's today? Yes. Yes there are. Much the same as there are Palestinians then and now.




But as they are not prepared to do that, I think the only way this can be completely resolved would be for Israel to start making it incredibly unprofitable to slaughter Jews. These people really have nothing to lose by killing us at this point, and they know Israel is too desperate for world approval to really fight back. I think we need another Ariel Sharon, but someone who will go even farther than Sharon. Tell the UN to go fuck themselves, tell Europe to scram, and raze a city every time there's a terrorist bombing. Put up a border wall and patrol it. Make it absolutely clear that every attack on the Jews will be answered TENFOLD. These people don't understand anything but violence, so speak to them in their language. They may never like us, but they may at least stop killing us. The Talmud says it clearly - "If someone comes to kill you, kill him first." I was never a believer in that "turn the other cheek" crap.

These People huh?? Oh yeah. show them true colors. Yes, all Arabs and Palestinians are violent savages. glad to know your true viewpoint on things. I guess my paternal Cree ancestors were just a bunch of savages as well.::)




Now who's being melodramatic? An accusation of an attempt, which quite possibly never happened and is only supported by dubious evidence, is nowhere near the same league as 9/11 or the Iran hostage crisis. And you know that full well.That was in 1948 and there was a considerable war on. Israel was a newborn struggling for survival. I think that makes perfect sense in the context of the situation, which is not exactly the same situation we're in now (although the threat is the same).

No its not a strech at all. When a country attempts to murder a US politician it shows a blatant disregard for America the nation and the lives of Americans. That leads to more violent acts America. Kind of like the Lavon affair. That event that more or less defines how underhanded Israel is in their foreign relations. Once again I have proved that what I originally stated that 'Israel does indeed dress up as Arabs and act out terrorism to alienate the West from Arabs' is indeed true.

"The Lavon affair. In 1954, the Israeli secret service set up a spy ring in Egypt, with the purpose of blowing up US and British targets. The terrorist hits were to be blamed on the regime of Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser, with the purpose of alienating the US and Britain from Egypt and Nasser and somehow preventing Egyptian nationalization of the Suez canal. The ring was discovered. Strict censorship ensured that that the Israeli public officially knew little or nothing of the affair for many years.


http://www.mideastweb.org/lavon.htm


The policies that Israel has taken through out their short history is why they are indeed the world's pariah. America would be best served to strongly distance themselves from Israel as our cultures and values are being marginalized by our association with that regime.

Melonie
06-24-2007, 03:36 PM
why? whats the connection here?

... Bloomie would be the first Jewish president
... Bloomie knows where the petro-dollar skeletons are buried
... Bloomie is a master at making 'back room' deals

missjzone
06-25-2007, 09:05 AM
^^ meh. I cant see things being any different with Bloomberg than with Dubya or Clinton. Both of them fit into the same categories as you mentioned.

Yekhefah
06-25-2007, 09:13 AM
Yes, all Arabs and Palestinians are violent savages.

That is absolutely not what I said, and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. I have no idea where you would even make that leap from my words. When you'd like to address what I actually said, I'll be happy to continue this conversation (although I suppose it is easier from your perspective to just play the race card and be done with it).


America would be best served to strongly distance themselves from Israel as our cultures and values are being marginalized by our association with that regime.

Yeah, we'd be much better off associating with brutal, oppressive theocratic dictatorships who behead little girls for going to school and who treat women worse than slaves and who gleefully pray for genocide. Much better for us.

missjzone
06-28-2007, 03:19 PM
That is absolutely not what I said, and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. I have no idea where you would even make that leap from my words. When you'd like to address what I actually said, I'll be happy to continue this conversation (although I suppose it is easier from your perspective to just play the race card and be done with it).

You can thank me all you want but, I didn't put 'those' words in your mouth. That's technically impossible on the net. I'm merely quoting what you said below. 'Those people' is a racist comment. In fact the whole pro-Israel argument is often based on racism and exclusion.


But as they are not prepared to do that, I think the only way this can be completely resolved would be for Israel to start making it incredibly unprofitable to slaughter Jews. These people really have nothing to lose by killing us at this point, and they know Israel is too desperate for world approval to really fight back. I think we need another Ariel Sharon, but someone who will go even farther than Sharon. Tell the UN to go fuck themselves, tell Europe to scram, and raze a city every time there's a terrorist bombing. Put up a border wall and patrol it. Make it absolutely clear that every attack on the Jews will be answered TENFOLD. These people don't understand anything but violence, so speak to them in their language. They may never like us, but they may at least stop killing us. The Talmud says it clearly - "If someone comes to kill you, kill him first." I was never a believer in that "turn the other cheek" crap.

But, I'm not surprised by these comments or even overly critical of your viewpoint. When one gets brainwashed from birth being told that they're the victim it is extremely difficult to then realize that you are the oppressor.This specific viewpoint is exactly why Israel is where it is at this point in it's short history.

You cant tell the UN to go fucck itself without realizing that without the UN would be NO Israel. The UN authorized the creation of Israel. Without Britain there would be NO Israel. Britain and Europe armed Israel. France saved Israel a$s in the 67 war.

And now you say they should go fucck themselves?You start telling people to fucck off simply because Israel cant look in the mirror and accept criticism what type of response do you accept to get to receive?

And you can continue to raze Palestinian cities all you want. The Palestinians aren't lying down and becoming slaves-wake up. Israel been razing cities for 60 years and the Palestinians are still there and their numbers are growing. Israel can continue down the path of violence, all it will get it more and more and more violence in return.



Yeah, we'd be much better off associating with brutal, oppressive theocratic dictatorships who behead little girls for going to school and who treat women worse than slaves and who gleefully pray for genocide. Much better for us.

Israel is an oppressive theocracy!! For anyone who isn't Jewish (specifically Christians or Muslims but, not exclusively) -Israel is a place where there are oppressive policies in place to ensure them to third class citizens. Think about it; the whole country was created on a singularly focused religious belief to the exclusion of all non-Jews. That in essence is the definition of prejudice.

xtina20
06-28-2007, 03:57 PM
When? Give me dates and examples of Israel deliberately targeting Arab civilians, calling for Arab extermination, and swearing that the war will continue until the Arabs are dead. I'm waiting.




The fully fledged massacres and rape committed as a tool of war (no different, notedly, to any other army in any other war throughout histroy) by the IDF in 1948 (War of independence)-700,000 palestininan civillians were uprooted during this period alone with the explusion orders originating with ben gurion.
october 1953: 69 palestinans massacred in the West Bank as warning that overwhelming force would be used against Palestinans who tried to occupy Israeli land. Led by a promising young commander by the name of Ariel Sharon
The first Intifada in 1987-the IDF repsonsed with; torture , cutting off electricity and water, arbitary arrest without trial, destroying olive groves (which was many families source of income, thereby creating much wider devastation)

just a few targeting of civillians...


Meanwhile, you want aggressive Israeli wars? Try the '56 Suez war-nothing whatsoever even remotely connected with Israeli security just plain old fashioned IR politics,
Lebanon '82; Israel was a occupying force up until its fairly recent withdrawl in 2000. 17,000 palestinian and lebanese (primarily civillian) dead.
Lebanon '06; as blown up as this was as against the actions of Hizbollah, the are located primarily in the south of Lebanon-the seige on Beuiruit and destruction of roads, power stations, petrol supplies etc was a grossly overreactive aggressive action

Then,my personal favourite: The security fence-650km which has effectively destroyed the lives of so many palestinians-checkpoints to access schools hospitals; access to medical care,divided towns all presided over by IDF border gaurds who may or may not allow ambulences, goods trucks, medicine etc through.
This is without even mentioning the brutual aparteheid that is going on under Isralei occupation in the settlements under the oversight of the IDF (which were expanding steadily even during the Oslo process).

As to the 'there are no palestinians" theory-this was widely propagated by a 1984? book by Joan Peters which gave a similiar myth giving greater credibility to the Zionist case for expansion. FORTUNATELY, this was debunked by Western historian Norman Finklestein (and years earlier by Porat) which cast Peters book as fraudulent and gave Western accpetance to the case for (primordial) Palestinian nationalism (based on the idea of a 'ancestral home')

Again, i stress that I believe Israel acted in the way all states act-in their own interest. However, those actions deliberately and targetedly punish the Palestinian people, in ways i believe are no less brutual than those they are reportedly "defending" against. This is not defending Israels right to exist-it is a deliberate policy of aggression and economic destruction that is aimed at Palestinan civillian populations in a effort to curb their survival.

Yekhefah
06-28-2007, 04:35 PM
Okay, so now opposing terrorism makes me a racist and Israel should lie down and die so that "Palestinians" can have an ancestral homeland. You know what, I'm done. You're not going to convince me that the Jews should be exterminated or that Israel should surrender and die, and I'm not going to convince you that the poor pitiful "Palestinians" have made it expressly clear that that is their goal, so whatever. Whenever this argument comes up it just results in tail-chasing.

missjzone
06-28-2007, 06:37 PM
Okay, so now opposing terrorism makes me a racist and Israel should lie down and die so that "Palestinians" can have an ancestral homeland. You know what, I'm done. You're not going to convince me that the Jews should be exterminated or that Israel should surrender and die, and I'm not going to convince you that the poor pitiful "Palestinians" have made it expressly clear that that is their goal, so whatever. Whenever this argument comes up it just results in tail-chasing.

Fair enough. You may be right in your tail chasing comment. This topic should be one that is discussed logically and with little emotional bias. However let me clarify some key points before it ends.

I don't believe the Palestinians are these poor, pitiful, tragic figures. Anything but. Secondly, I have not stated that the Jews are going to be exterminated. I defy you to find such a comment in this thread from me along those lines. In addition this would be extremely challenging to do as Israel contains less than half of world's Jewish population. So in essence this extermination statement is hyperbole and merely a scare tactic to induce sympathy.

Thirdly, this debate between you and I began when you stated that my comment that Israeli has engaged in acts of terror camouflaged as Arabs was ridiculous. I have proven with facts that it is not ridiculous . That was at outset my only objective in this thread. It evolved into more, which is often normal with political discussions.

Lastly, until the pro-Israeli side enters this debate with an open mind and is able to see facts as facts, no progress will be made whatsoever. This is why I have stated before and will state again, the US, the country you and both live/d in should divest itself of Israel/Palestine and take a more neutral approcah. There is no benefit to America in this conflict.

Yekhefah
06-28-2007, 06:43 PM
You have not convinced me that the Israeli government is faking these attacks. You cannot convince me of that. It makes no sense whatsoever and it's a silly conspiracy theory.

And as a Zionist, I do see the facts. In fact I think I am looking more closely at the actual facts of the situation than you are. You are being swayed by rhetoric.

But yeah, we're tail-chasing. I agree to disagree.

missjzone
06-28-2007, 07:22 PM
You have not convinced me that the Israeli government is faking these attacks. You cannot convince me of that. It makes no sense whatsoever and it's a silly conspiracy theory.

And as a Zionist, I do see the facts. In fact I think I am looking more closely at the actual facts of the situation than you are. You are being swayed by rhetoric.

But yeah, we're tail-chasing. I agree to disagree.

agreeing to disagree is fine. thats the concept of a debate.

But, you cannot being seeing the facts if you still think that it's a conspiracy theory. Explain how bombings and acts of sabotage by Isreali's dressing up as Arabs to engage in terrorist acts is not exactly what I originally claimed? These are facts not rhetoric. And this is just one example I have highlited.

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal over a failed Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) covert operation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_operation) in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) known as Operation Susannah, in which Egyptian, American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)-owned targets in Egypt were bombed.Colonel Binyamin Gibli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binyamin_Gibli), the chief of Israel's military intelligence, Aman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aman_%28IDF%29), initiated Operation Suzannah in order to reverse that decision. The goal of the Operation was to carry out bombings and other acts of sabotage in Egypt.

Ziva
06-28-2007, 08:08 PM
wow, what a read this was, very eye opening!

xtina20
06-29-2007, 03:41 PM
Okay, so now opposing terrorism makes me a racist and Israel should lie down and die so that "Palestinians" can have an ancestral homeland. You know what, I'm done. You're not going to convince me that the Jews should be exterminated or that Israel should surrender and die, and I'm not going to convince you that the poor pitiful "Palestinians" have made it expressly clear that that is their goal, so whatever. Whenever this argument comes up it just results in tail-chasing.

the goal was never for Israel to 'lay down and die'-i'm sorry that you felt that was what came through.

I know in my posts, and most of the others on here, that what we were trying to emphasise is how both sides have their share of tragic stories and fairly horrendous acts committed in their name.
: the is no "great good" versus "great evil"- a context which this issue always seems to be framed in (in populist western media contexts at any rate).

dlabtot
07-08-2007, 06:38 PM
Perhaps some see a distinction between 'deliberately targeting civilians' and 'not caring about collateral damage'.

I don't.

242_fair
07-13-2007, 09:23 PM
Perhaps some see a distinction between 'deliberately targeting civilians' and 'not caring about collateral damage'.

I don't.

Like this child being shot and killed by the Israel army as his father is begging them to stop?

Raven_Reno
07-13-2007, 11:23 PM
maybe it's not well known but many Jewish people don't agree with the actions of Israel towards Palestinians

Kalligirl
07-29-2007, 10:09 AM
nevermind.