View Full Version : That bitch is charging too much for dances!! The NERVE!!!
Bridgette
05-13-2007, 06:31 PM
Knock yourself out, I think you'll be swimming up stream though. I think most of the problems mentioned involve shitty management more than anything. Address that and you'd have a better chance at changing things for the better. I think you'd be better off gaining some investors and starting your own club, I'm serious about that too, hell I'd go. How many times do we have to say management is NOT ever going to change, no matter how much we might address it, except maybe for the worse? How many times have you read us complaining on here that mgmt only sees us as expendable pieces of meat at best, and certainly not with any good ideas on how to manage things, and even if they did think some of us girls might have a good idea or two, they aren't interested because they don't give a shit about helping us, and how they're too short-sighted to care about any negative affects their decisions bring about for them in the long run? They might change for the better IF they are forced into it via regulation and enforcement, but I'm not holding my breath for that. I am convinced the only way to make it better is to increase our license fee. I don't know why you're so negative about that, other than maybe you're really afraid of a price increase on dances.
As far as this idea is concerned, I really wish you'd take your negativity elsewhere.
As for opening a club. Yeah, when I've got half a million lying around to open one, I'll let ya know :P But even then, I don't see opening a new club as doing anything but contributing to the problem - more clubs just spread the customer base thinner. What does that do to help the girls? In my years of experience in this industry, I've ONLY seen that opening more clubs only hurts the girls in the long run, if anything.
miabella
05-13-2007, 06:47 PM
i think for such a policy change to get any play in phx, one would have to study the backstory of what happened in atlanta. it's all low contact and capped girl counts and plenny money now, but what about BEFORE those high entry fees and other restrictions were enacted? atlanta wasn't always so optimal for (a very few) strippers.
and finding out how atlanta came to the point it is at now would be essential for transferring the model to other cities.
Bridgette
05-14-2007, 12:25 AM
Basically in Atlanta they did some clean-up after the Gold Club scandal. When Gold Club was shut down, other clubs saw a very clear incentive to keep things at least moderately clean, because they didn't want to be shut down too! (Uh, anyone reminded of something we've heard recently about Memphis clubs??) I hear from a girl who lived/worked in ATL years ago that they always had stripper licenses in ATL (or at least did when Gold Club was still open, but the cost has since skyrocketed from something like $50 to the current $3-400.
From what I have gathered, the city/county in ATL have come to an understanding with the clubs, because it's well-known ATL gets tons of conventions largely because the stripclubs there are such a draw. IMAGINE that!! CLEAN stripclubs are a HUGE DRAW for conventionaires!!! :O I'll tell ya something else: they're a draw for more of the regular customers we want here too - the kind who have more money to spend, who are less interested in buying cheap sex, who are more interested in the entertainment stripclubs are supposed to offer. This is something I've always said: keep the standards higher and attract better customers; lower club standards and you'll attract the lowest common denominator while running off the good customers.
Now, the clubs in ATL aren't exactly perfectly clean. They're waaaaaaayy clean on the floor but in the CRs there's room for some naughtybusiness. However, anything that goes on is kept way on the DL and from what I could tell, even the "dirty" girls are pretty tame. I would guess that's because 1) other girls would raise hell if anyone was caught doing too much, 2) housemom IS likely to fire you for going to far, 3) the legal / financial risk isn't worth it and 4) THEY JUST DON'T NEED TO DO MUCH TO MAKE THE MONEY. So ultimately, uber-clean girls are able to make just as much money as the "dirty" girls, because no one really knows what's going on in those near-private VIP rooms, AND the floor action is SO clean, no one can look at that and rationally expect they'd get any real action ITC.
I do think it's possible for Houston to clean up the clubs too, if what they're doing now is handled right, but after 10 years of operating so recklessly, it'll be a tough transition with the customers - business may royally suck for a while but if people just hold out for a while, customers will start buying regular dances again. Repeat: higher standards attract better customers; lower standards attract johns. It was in 1997-8 when the original round of super-strict ordinances came down, that the Houston clubs first took a nosedive straight into the gutter. Before that they were reported to be some of the nicest, most profitable and cleanest clubs in the country :O
In Phoenix's case, we don't need to shut down a club to make things work. We just need a more expensive license like ATL has. Besides, the city shutting down a club here isn't even truly viable as an option. We all know what happened with Babe's / Club Jenna in Snottsdale. Better to keep it a much quieter affair (we don't want the clubs to feel threatened that way again anyway), and let them "tax us sinful strippers". We'll collectively be seen more as contributing because of all the money we'll be paying, the city/residents will want to keep that money-train flowing, and we'll be way less flooded with girls so we can make more money! Sounds like a win-win-win to me ;D
MissK
05-14-2007, 05:00 AM
Actually there are $20 dances offered at Babe's, Bourbon Street, Sonny's & Christies Cabaret to name just a few (granted, all of them do also offer $10 dances). And where can I get one of these high mileage $20 full nude dances that you speak of?
;D ::) I meant $20 dances as in they don't offer $10 dances at all. As far as the high mileage, that's the impression I got from some posts on the board. I get that idea by some people talking bad about the nude clubs here, about them being dives and full of shit. I take it that one of the reasons is because there's probably a lot of mileage going on.
If not, well hell then my new name will be Stark Nekkid }:D !
Bridgette
05-14-2007, 06:33 AM
Missk, I plan on checking out Le Girls this week and if I like what I see I'll try working there. I've done nude before and it doesn't bother me at all. In most nude clubs I've worked, they're usually stricter than topless. Not always, but mostly.
I have heard nothing but bad about ABC (Bush Co), but Le Girls is rumored to be a decent place to work. Hell, if you wanna just go one night this week for some recon, I'll happily get the fiance and we can go together ;D
Dirty Ernie
05-14-2007, 07:32 AM
Licensing in Reno is considerably higher than Vegas and, having been there last weekend, I will say that the dancers at Fantasy Girls were, on average, a step above the average Vegas mega club dancer. They all had minimal, at the least, pole skills too, something sorely missing in LV. It seems reasonable this is due to the higher fees weeding out the lazy and non-committed.
StrayStripper
05-14-2007, 09:12 AM
I do think it's possible for Houston to clean up the clubs too, if what they're doing now is handled right, but after 10 years of operating so recklessly, it'll be a tough transition with the customers - business may royally suck for a while but if people just hold out for a while, customers will start buying regular dances again. Repeat: higher standards attract better customers; lower standards attract johns. It was in 1997-8 when the original round of super-strict ordinances came down, that the Houston clubs first took a nosedive straight into the gutter. Before that they were reported to be some of the nicest, most profitable and cleanest clubs in the country :O
I think that Houston will have a revival in a few years. Cleaner, nicer, profitable. I know it's bad for the girls now, but if they wait it out, they will see their customer base change from wild to polite. Dancers might even ENJOY going to work.
Girls think that they need to give more to make more. This is so untrue. VIPs in Chicago is no contact -- as in no contact whatsoever. It's bikini too. Yet, girls walk with $1000+ every night. If customers drive to the suburbs, they can get more action in the dances, but they choose not to. They go to VIPs. They want entertainment.
Chicago cracks down on their strippers so that only the best of the best survive. It is the one city where not every girl can be stripper. You have to deserve it.
Customers from Houston go too far. I will not dance for them. I will not tolerate them. They need to be retrained. Strippers are not for touching. Strippers are to be respected.
Next stop, Tampa.
MissK
05-14-2007, 09:24 AM
Hell, if you wanna just go one night this week for some recon, I'll happily get the fiance and we can go together ;D
Damn I wish I could take you up on that offer, but I'm on bed rest nursing a bad knee :'( :banghead: . Rain check? :yes: :)
Oh and I checked out their website www.legirlscabaret.net and some of the photos were redundant and a few had questionable people in them, but the layout seems alright. I noticed they didn't list the dance prices, so I wonder if mgmt is ok with the girls charging whatever. I just bet they have some real dumb ass rules too. I can feel it!
MissK
miabella
05-14-2007, 03:50 PM
just fyi, there was a girl or two that posted on here about working at le girls and it was mentioned that the fees were pretty extravagant and there were even merch sales involved.
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81772
that's the relevant fee thread, and it looks pretty recent.
LatinaRose
05-14-2007, 06:25 PM
Missk, I plan on checking out Le Girls this week and if I like what I see I'll try working there. I've done nude before and it doesn't bother me at all. In most nude clubs I've worked, they're usually stricter than topless. Not always, but mostly.
I have heard nothing but bad about ABC (Bush Co), but Le Girls is rumored to be a decent place to work. Hell, if you wanna just go one night this week for some recon, I'll happily get the fiance and we can go together ;D
Cally and other girls recently told me that Le Girls costs a fortune to work at - over $100 a night!!!! I've heard Dream Palace is good money for nude and low contact as well.
Bridgette
05-14-2007, 08:50 PM
^Depending on what I make, it's not unusual for me to pay that at HL. Not unusual at all. That little 10% deal, plus house fee and other tipouts, add up quick.
UtahMike
05-14-2007, 09:18 PM
Over the past couple years, I've been at clubs in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, California, and Nevada. Of all of them, there was only one club where the going rate for an LD was $10, and that was in West Wendover, NV. BTW, this club no longer has LDs, just a private dance no less than 18 inches away from the customer. New City Council, new law.
There is only one one club in Utah that has LDs, a non-alcoholic club. LDs there are $20.
Every other club I've been to has charged either $20 or $25. One club charges $10 for a non-contact dance and $25 for a dance with touching of non-bikini areas allowed. They sell a lot more of the $25 dances.
There used to be two clubs in West Wendover, side by side. In one, dances were $10, and in the other, $20. Until it closed, I always west in the more expensive club because it was more fun, and I do NOT mean extras. It was just more fun.
MissK
05-14-2007, 10:13 PM
I've been thinking about the title of this thread, and the thought process put into someone saying it (She is charging TOO MUCH!).
So excuse me wtf is TOO MUCH? There's somebody who feels their valuable time and concerted effort in this business should come at the (mind you low low) price of $20 and that it too much? That's fuckin UNDERpaid!
I think it's so funny that someone would be mad at another ones game like that.
It's too much for one of two reasons:
-You don't have the money to afford it
-You don't feel the value of what you're buying is worth the dollar amount someone is asking for it.
For the first one, they can kiss my entire ass, anus and even perineum.
For the second one, it is my obligation and duty to convince them otherwise.
I bet the dancer(s) who say that phrase (charging too much!) probably see the dollar signs floating over the other dancer's head and it's upsetting to look above their head and just see the ceiling.
MissK
05-14-2007, 10:23 PM
I just bet they have some real dumb ass rules too. I can feel it!
MissK
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81772
I knew it! They're fuckin you in all holes there.
Buuuuuuuuuut, we'll see the report Bridgette comes back with. Maybe all that fuckin wouldn't be so bad. :P
MissK
miabella
05-14-2007, 10:25 PM
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81772
I knew it! They're fuckin you in all holes there.
Buuuuuuuuuut, we'll see the report Bridgette comes back with. Maybe all that fuckin wouldn't be so bad. :P
MissK
i just posted that thread ;D
I drove by the Le Girls on I-17 several weeks ago. It may be worth checking out but this is the 3rd name change that place has been under. The access into the club is difficult, which is why I think it never does well. This club is topless/full bar unlike the original Van Buren location, so I am sure house fees are competitive with other topless clubs.
Bridgette, Richard Head, Doc Catfish, and AZDD make viable comments. Unfortunately municipal leaders getting involved in our business as the guys say I feel is opening a can of worms. Phoenix isn't in that much better a position than Houston really. It has a lot of adult venues, right? Look at that ridiculous law that came with the 2AM bar closing. From 1-2 tops can't come off. What is the point of that? Not too long ago therewas the big push to block all adult bookstores from being 24 hours, they also were trying to close the swingers clubs, and clamp down on the strip clubs. Look at the fears of the county about having so many massage parlors. Look at the raids by asshole Sheriff Arpaio. He is one shaky SOB, and one to always watch out for.
Bridgette, I think you are very bright and experienced and quite frankly almost in a position to "gasp" must I say it, rise above stripping and make some of the changes you are talking about through ownership. With more corporate training you could within the next year obtain enough money WITHOUT partners, to buy some clubs in Phx that come up for sale.
To change this system you need to be an owner, and I feel you could do this and maybe own half a dozen clubs in town that you could implement Dancer Wealth training in, cap the amount of dancers, and use your expertise to make some changes in how the club market runs there. This is your calling.
What are the real reasons for the club problems. The easier dance sell in AZ comes from the lower price, but like Richard Head said, people are accustomed to paying less for dances in AZ, and not being as picky who they buy them from as a result. Less sitting is required to make a sale which is less taxing on the emotions.
But also clubs hire more dances now for what reasons? They are collecting less cover charges, and are making less bar sales than in years past, plus have more legal expenses. Higher licensing fees as RH said will cause an increase in house fees, as less dancers will equate into less house fee revenue, and doubling the dance prices will lessen the amount sold, and/or decrease the frequency guys come to the clubs, further lessening club revenue.
It's just like saying that rent and fuel prices should be the same as in CA since people pay more there. Arizona is a different market, and customers are used to disbursing their money differently here.
Politicians at this point in time are not comfortable letting bygones be bygones as far as seually oriented businesses are concerned. The ownership thing is REALLY viable, and Bridgette I think you are the one to do it. The owners are the root of the problem and politicians constantly threatening clubs with closure or ridiculously restrictive laws are behind lots of the problems.
Once we finish our corporate capital building, the more I think about it, the more I think delving into a couple clubs as an investment may be a path to take. You can always bankrupt a club if thinks get sticky as long as it is set up as a division of the parent corp without jeopardizing the parent corp or your personal credit.
MissK
05-14-2007, 11:11 PM
i just posted that thread ;D
Yeah sorry girlfriend, I was trying to do the multi quote thing but it wasn't coming up so I just copy and pasted the link under my quote. Oh but thank you for finding it though ;D ! I swear I did a search and the couple of threads that came up when I did it versus following yours were definitely not the same. Wth? :shrug:
Bridgette
05-15-2007, 04:16 AM
Ok, generally I find the technique of breaking down posts into smaller quotes and responding to each segment individually, very annoying. But since Tina brought up some very different, interesting and important points, I'm gonna do it.
I drove by the Le Girls on I-17 several weeks ago. It may be worth checking out but this is the 3rd name change that place has been under. The access into the club is difficult, which is why I think it never does well. This club is topless/full bar unlike the original Van Buren location, so I am sure house fees are competitive with other topless clubs. I agree that location isn't good and that's probably a big contributor to its poor business. I also tend to think the "mega club" thing doesn't really work in this market. When it was Penthouse they got alot of lipservice and customers were curious, but they never had enough girls to keep the interest, apparently.
Unfortunately municipal leaders getting involved in our business as the guys say I feel is opening a can of worms. Phoenix isn't in that much better a position than Houston really. It has a lot of adult venues, right? Look at that ridiculous law that came with the 2AM bar closing. From 1-2 tops can't come off. What is the point of that? Not too long ago therewas the big push to block all adult bookstores from being 24 hours, they also were trying to close the swingers clubs, and clamp down on the strip clubs. Look at the fears of the county about having so many massage parlors. Look at the raids by asshole Sheriff Arpaio. He is one shaky SOB, and one to always watch out for. Ok, it's my understanding that the 1am no topless thing was just a leftover from the old 1am bar closing law. Sonny's, Skin and Babes get away with letting the girls keep their tops off after 1am by making them wear latex.
As for clamping down on the strip clubs, I think a hugely increased license fee could be seen as doing just that. The city council did pass the new license law a couple years ago without much hullabulloo - I don't see why they couldn't just increase the fee now. Also, it seems to me that Snottsdale is much more against SOBs than city of Phoenix. Of course I could be way wrong. Need more research.
Crazy Joe Arpaio is another matter. We won't write him any letters ;D
Bridgette, I think you are very bright and experienced and quite frankly almost in a position to "gasp" must I say it, rise above stripping and make some of the changes you are talking about through ownership. With more corporate training you could within the next year obtain enough money WITHOUT partners, to buy some clubs in Phx that come up for sale.I am not doubting I could come up with the corp credit / money to buy a club in the not-too-distant future. But in a year??? I'm not THAT far along now. Are you sure you're not overestimating what I'm doing? :O
To change this system you need to be an owner, and I feel you could do this and maybe own half a dozen clubs in town that you could implement Dancer Wealth training in, cap the amount of dancers, and use your expertise to make some changes in how the club market runs there. This is your calling.I dunno about DW training, I was never too convinced about the helpfulness of that. I could implement my own training though. Imagine, my very own AZ legion of Bridgette-style stripper-sharks!! LOL :D But seriously, I'd need more expertise than I have to run a good club, so I'd have to find that somewhere. I am great at stripping and selling dances, and I can see a ton of things that clubs do wrong because I've spent so much time out on the floor, dealing with customers and all that. But I know fuckall about running a bar or how to get all the appropriate licenses. That would take some serious research I believe.
But also clubs hire more dances now for what reasons? They are collecting less cover charges, and are making less bar sales than in years past, plus have more legal expenses.I agree the customer counts are lower these days and clubs DO use girls to make up that lost revenue, but frankly I totally believe these asshole owners would keep hiring more girls regardless of customer counts, just to keep collecting more and more house fees. ugh
Higher licensing fees as RH said will cause an increase in house fees, as less dancers will equate into less house fee revenue, and doubling the dance prices will lessen the amount sold, and/or decrease the frequency guys come to the clubs, further lessening club revenue.I'm thinking raise the license fee FIRST. Then see where we are. Just that may be enough to get us earning more money by reducing competition, so we all go back to not caring that the dance price is low.
It's just like saying that rent and fuel prices should be the same as in CA since people pay more there. Arizona is a different market, and customers are used to disbursing their money differently here.That is a good point, however with the contact levels we're providing here these days, $10 is cheapass regardless of what the price is in other states. Either the price needs to go up or the contact needs to come back down. Or maybe I just need to find another club! LOL ;D
The ownership thing is REALLY viable, and Bridgette I think you are the one to do it. The owners are the root of the problem and politicians constantly threatening clubs with closure or ridiculously restrictive laws are behind lots of the problems.
Once we finish our corporate capital building, the more I think about it, the more I think delving into a couple clubs as an investment may be a path to take. You can always bankrupt a club if thinks get sticky as long as it is set up as a division of the parent corp without jeopardizing the parent corp or your personal credit.You make it sound awfully tempting and easy. You make me want to start snooping around for club sale listings. HA! I thought I wanted to own a stripclub since practically the very day I started dancing. This business is most definitely my "thing", whether I'm a stripper or selling clothes or whatever. I feel you and I are very often on the same page and have very similar interests, but different and complementary experiences as well. Perhaps we could put our heads (and some of our corporate divisions) together and make it work together. hehe. Sheeeit. Let's get ourselves a titty bar!!! :D
Or maybe we could separately buy up some clubs and start running them like a cartel. hahahahahahahahahaha!!!
LatinaRose
05-15-2007, 04:25 AM
B, you could even have your own little store inside the club or make the house mom sell your stuff! And I bet a "stripper shark" course only you could provide would be fantastic!
With all the effort it would take to get the city to do what you want, you might as well spend the time opening your own club. It'll be far more profitable.
I'll talk to you about the corp thing another time Bridgette. You COULD do this and so could I. We need some people as owners in this business who CARE, and who have worked in it, to make it better. One think I like about working in the small town clubs is being able to ask questions of the owners and managers about how to run a club, get the permits, etc. without all the arrogance you get from the mega big city clubs. There are books out there that tell you how to run and open a bar.
As they say, the best experience comes on the job.
You're bright and know your stuff. NEVER underestimate yourself. ;)
casaubon1
05-15-2007, 03:35 PM
You can always bankrupt a club if thinks get sticky as long as it is set up as a division of the parent corp without jeopardizing the parent corp or your personal credit.
Tina, I think the idea of savvy types like you and Bridgette owning clubs is great, and it would be a wonderful development for dancers and customers alike.
But the lawyer in me makes me want to respond to this quoted comment: if a lender or trade creditor, or even a landlord, knows what he is doing, he will not extend credit to a subsidiary that has so few assets that you can bankrupt it easily. He will demand guarantees from the parent company, the owners personally, or both. So if I were you I wouldn't assume you can get into business without some personal risk.
You can use revolving lines of credit, ie credit cards issued to one of the divisions of the parent corp to pay for the venture. Of course it depends on the purchase price of the club, but several million dollars is very attainable. I was taught to never personally guarantee anything, and different banks have different policies on credit granting.
You can never go to a bank to get a business loan to purchase a club, but I am being taught to not do that for ANYTHING. Get revolving accounts, and use them to buy your real estate. Vendors will extend credit if you have a good credit rating.
ExoticEngineer
05-15-2007, 04:17 PM
Tina, I am more impressed by you with every post.
Thank you EE. There's a LOT of work to do to build the capital but this seems like one of the few businesses where there are few owners who actually danced before, and want to be honest and give something back. It doesn't HAVE to be that way.
Bridgette
05-15-2007, 06:33 PM
Well I am steadily working on my corporate business because I have bigger goals, so I am eager to see what comes of it. I am somewhat less optimistic on the ability to quickly get big credit than you Tina, because I keep looking at the recent credit fiascoes in this country and the way consumer credit is being reigned in, and wonder if it will be more difficult in the near future for businesses to obtain credit as well.
Although I do believe it's ENTIRELY possible to get enough together in a year or two to buy a small club, and build from there. I'm working on it, and it's coming along :)
I'm with ya on the notion that the BEST way to affect positive change is for more experienced girls to get into owning clubs and start changing trends. The clubs get away with so much shit now, in large part because it's a male(pimp)-dominated industry and they all follow the worst leads. The vast majority of the men running clubs these days have a bad case of pimp mentality, and that's bad news for us and all the girls who'll follow us. I would LOVE to be able to make a difference for the future of this business.
running off to check my corporate accounts...
casaubon1
05-15-2007, 08:11 PM
You can use revolving lines of credit, ie credit cards issued to one of the divisions of the parent corp to pay for the venture. Of course it depends on the purchase price of the club, but several million dollars is very attainable. I was taught to never personally guarantee anything, and different banks have different policies on credit granting.
You can never go to a bank to get a business loan to purchase a club, but I am being taught to not do that for ANYTHING. Get revolving accounts, and use them to buy your real estate. Vendors will extend credit if you have a good credit rating.
You're obviously asking the right questions, and if the answers you are getting are that positive, then that is great. I think I would like to go to a dancer-managed club -- it just strikes me as likely to be more sane. I wonder if it would make a difference to other customers?
UtahMike
05-15-2007, 08:42 PM
Club 91 in Pocatello, ID, is owned and managed by Evelyn, a former dancer. Every dancer I've ever talked with about it has told me how much they like dancing there, and there are always lots of customers, even on week nights.
RoseLeigh
05-16-2007, 06:58 AM
This is a really fascinating thread. My grandparents owned a strip club back in the 80s and now I can only imagine the sort of crap they had to go through to do it. I think I've learned more about business on SW than I ever did in economics class or really anywhere. And it's not suprising to me that half the clubs I've danced at are gone or bought out-I don't think the owners knew half as much about the actual business than you ladies.
I hope someone does buy up a club and makes it a good SW-friendly one! I would brave 'It's a dry heat' for it.
Rose Leigh
evan_essence
05-16-2007, 06:12 PM
Can I ask why you would want to use debt that's financed at credit card rates? I know diddly squat about starting and running a business, but the more I learn about that kind of financing on a personal level, the more I see it as a deep pit that's hard to climb out of. Would it be possible to find an angel investor? Perhaps calling out, "Here, Angel! Here, Angel!"?? :D
-Ev
Bridgette
05-16-2007, 06:50 PM
Angel investors aren't such a great deal IMO. They often (maybe always) want some control over running the business and frankly I'd rather avoid that. The fact they have some money to throw around doesn't always mean they know wtf they're doing in YOUR business, or that you'd want to put up with them even if they did.