View Full Version : customers grinding back
Jenny
06-06-2007, 11:56 AM
LOL...we? no, YOU might expect customers to sit still and that's fine. obviously, you have some aversion to cocks rubbing back at you. but hey, unlike you, there are girls who don't mind at all. in fact, it's not unusual for them to encourage it. sheesh, talk about a lack of intuition.
Well, if they are encouraging it, it is obviously being negotiated, isn't it? You asked why girls who would feel violated at certain behaviour work in strip club - I answered OBVIOUSLY because that is not behaviour that they expect to encounter. That was the "we" to which I was referring. We girls who actually expect you to just sit still and let us work.
no thanks. you don't control me. so, don't even try it. that is my right. you see, i don't have to buy dances from temple virgins who take off their clothes, sit on a customer's lap, rub on their dicks and then act surprised, shocked or become "emotionally traumatized" when he gets sexually excited and his pelvis starts to gyrate. ie: "WTF!? gasp! help! someone please help me! i don't understand! it's...it's moving! why is it moving!? OMFG! i don't think he's wearing underwear either!".
Yes, punky. We all have long since figured out that you have no real sense of your own gruesomeness or that there might be some strippers who actually don't expect their customers to be that full-out disgusting. But there you go - I actually don't assume that all customers are going to be full out disgusting, and I work on an a priori assumption that they intend to actually follow the standard dance guidelines (of course, absent specific negotiation to the contrary) when they come in and agree to buy dances from me. If they want something outside of that, I fully expect them to ASK FIRST. I know, I know. These weird ideas I have that I'm not subhuman and have the right to some bodily integrity... they must be hard for someone like you to accept.
xdamage
06-06-2007, 12:07 PM
i think stripping may exacerbate problems that were present long before stripping. it's like if you have a problem with alcohol. well, working in a bar might not be such a good idea.
I can't deny that is very possible. We see all kinds of people self-destructing in life in various ways in life, making bad short term choices in favor of better long term choices. No reason this should be any different. Hey, I've said before, not everyone that works in a strip club is really emotionally cut out for it (same with escorts), and likewise not every customer in the club has the right mindset for it. I'm not saying it's a good thing that strippers or escorts feel violated, just that it could be true while at the same time they do it for the money. And I'm not saying customers shouldn't spend on them, just that it's one of those no-win realities for some sex workers.
The main problem with the club though is that the "deal" is suppose to be one thing, but what actually happens is another. I'm not saying its right that strippers don't do more to enforce the limits or their own sense of what is violating, I'm just saying I can see how they can end up feeling violated when a customer exceeds the expected limits.
LOL..do you see poor, little jenny as the victim type who'll keep her trap shut and smile while she's being physically violated by the big, bad, mean customer? Or, can you see her spending oodles of time with a customer who trying to monopolize her time, but isn't paying her? i don't. i think one only truly feels violated when one does nothing about it.
well, they do say it's all about the money.
I don't know. It's easy to be assertive on the internet in a forum, but in the actual situation, well, I can see a stripper just putting up with what the customer is doing for the money (no matter how assertive she is on the internet). If there was no money exchanged it's 99.9% sure they'd scream no, but when money is involved I'd guess a lot put up with a lot that they don't particularly like (or even feel violated over) but oohhhh sweeeeettt money ... what people won't do for it.
I do understand the logic behind the notion "i don't. i think one only truly feels violated when one does nothing about it." but I don't know that everyone thinks this way. Victim mentality doesn't work like that. There is something to be said for putting oneself in the victim position in life. No matter how the situation turns out you can look on yourself and say "it's not really my fault" or "my responsibility" When it's convienent you can choose the path that increases your income. If you feel bad about allowing a customer to do something for that money that you could have said "no" about it, you can walk away feeling like a violated, victim of circumstances that someone else imposed on you, not really your responsibility or fault, so you really don't have to feel bad about yourself (the bad customer made "me"). It's being able to have one's cake and eat it too. I'm not saying it's a mature outlook, I'm just saying a lot of people are into the victim thing where they are very selective about taking responsibility - they do so when they like the outcome of their decisions, and they don't when they don't like the outcome. win-win for the victim.
mr_punk
06-06-2007, 02:18 PM
Hey, I've said before, not everyone that works in a strip club is really emotionally cut out for it (same with escorts), and likewise not every customer in the club has the right mindset for it.true, and those people tend to get weeded out fairly quickly.
I don't know. It's easy to be assertive on the internet in a forum, but in the actual situation, well, I can see a stripper just putting up with what the customer is doing for the money (no matter how assertive she is on the internet). If there was no money exchanged it's 99.9% sure they'd scream no, but when money is involved I'd guess a lot put up with a lot that they don't particularly like (or even feel violated over) but oohhhh sweeeeettt money ... what people won't do for it.you can only push people so far and no matter how much you sweeten the pot. in the end, they're either they're going to do it or not.
mr_punk
06-06-2007, 02:21 PM
Well, if they are encouraging it, it is obviously being negotiated, isn't it? You asked why girls who would feel violated at certain behaviour work in strip clubwhich was, OBVIOUSLY, a rhetorical question. but hey, i understand. like i said, you're looking for a fight. you should try smiling more, baby. it suits you.
Yes, punky. We all have long since figured out that you have no real sense of your own gruesomeness or that there might be some strippers who actually don't expect their customers to be that full-out disgusting.yeah, and there are some customers who expect their ATF is telling the truth when she hits him up for money for her mother's big toe transplant. which is more than a little naive, don't you think? still, they'll learn. BTW, i am highly offended by your inaccurate insult. i prefer the term disgustingly, gruesome pervert if you don't mind.
But there you go - I actually don't assume that all customers are going to be full out disgusting, and I work on an a priori assumption that they intend to actually follow the standard dance guidelines (of course, absent specific negotiation to the contrary) when they come in and agree to buy dances from me.awww..now, that's mighty nice of you, red. <slaps forehead> oops, silly me. i was so blinded by your display of altruism. i almost forgot the customer is the party actually spending the money. so, it doesn't cost you anything by working from that assumption, unless he skips out on paying you. however, since i am the party actually spending money. it would be silly of me to work on an a priori assumption in a sc. thus, when a temple virgin, who absurdly thinks she knows what i like better than i do, tells me that she can give me a better dance if i just follow her instructions. i tend not to give credence until i see some proof.
Jenny
06-06-2007, 02:30 PM
which was, OBVIOUSLY, a rhetorical question. but hey, i understand. like i said, you're looking for a fight. you should try smiling more, baby. it suits you.
It really doesn't. Bad teeth.
BTW, i am highly offended by your inaccurate insult. i prefer the term disgustingly, gruesome pervert if you don't mind.
You know... I don't mind.
awww..now, that's mighty nice of you, red. <slaps forehead> oops, silly me. i was so blinded by your display of altruism. i almost forgot the customer is the party actually spending the money. so, it doesn't cost you anything by working from that assumption, unless he skips out on paying you. however, since i am the party actually spending money. it would be silly of me to work on an a priori assumption in a sc. thus, when a temple virgin, who absurdly thinks she knows what i like better than i do, tells me that she can give me a better dance if i just follow her instructions. i tend not to give credence until i see some proof.
What are you even talking about right now? A) I never said it was a "better" dance. I said it was the behaviour that I expected from reasonable human beings (Yes! Even strip club patrons! Even strippers get to determine who touches them and how! And I realize that you work on the a priori assumption that strippers are mute animals with no ownership over their bodies - I mean, you have to have someone to look down to compensate for being you - my point is that that is what makes you... you know. WRONG. The fact that you are spending money... yeah and so? Again - spending money gives you the power to negotiate. It doesn't render the negotiation (and agreement) unnecessary. So sit still and stop humping the girls until they say it's alright.
xdamage
06-06-2007, 05:38 PM
So sit still and stop humping the girls until they say it's alright.
Personally I admit to pulling an "FBR" (registered TM). It's quite honestly just reaction, sexual situation getting humped, the humping back happens without thinking. So far no dancer has said no, but rather they hump back faster/harder. It has nothing to do with wanting to violate or intentionally hurt the dancer or her feelings. It's more like putting delicious food in one's mouth and expecting the person not to swallow. I'm open to seeing this from the dancer's point of view of course, but just saying, just cause a guy humps back doesn't mean he is doing it with any intent to emotionally hurt the dancer.
Jenny
06-06-2007, 10:06 PM
Personally I admit to pulling an "FBR" (registered TM). It's quite honestly just reaction, sexual situation getting humped, the humping back happens without thinking. So far no dancer has said no, but rather they hump back faster/harder. It has nothing to do with wanting to violate or intentionally hurt the dancer or her feelings. It's more like putting delicious food in one's mouth and expecting the person not to swallow. I'm open to seeing this from the dancer's point of view of course, but just saying, just cause a guy humps back doesn't mean he is doing it with any intent to emotionally hurt the dancer.
Don't be ridiculous. I mean we're not food. Food doesn't have feelings. Food doesn't have ownership over its body. We do. It's nothing like putting food in your mouth. Lots of things are sexual reactions. I'm not objecting to actual physical reactions (e.g. erections); I'm objecting to behaviours. Most guys manage to get dances without being dicks about it; I'm not likely to accept biological imperative as an excuse for the few disgusting deviants (no offence FBR - you know I adore you, deviant or no). For the one guy who has never been in a strip club before and has no idea that it is not a date and that "signals" aren't relevant here, I'll let it slide. That's not the usual case.
Further, can we keep my "emotions" out of it? I'm talking about basic courtesy and dignity, not tears and sap. The fact that damaging the dancers "emotions" may not figure into a customer's decision making process doesn't mean that he is treating her with basic human respect. I don't think an attitude of "she has no feelings, she's just a stripper" is THAT much better than "Let's hurt her feelings because she's a stripper."
I_luv_dancers!
06-06-2007, 11:23 PM
Boys who try to (and the key word here is indeed TRY) move with us, grind back, whatever, during the dance get a crappy dance because you throw off our rhythm and balance. You ALL have shit for rhythm, and your herky jerky convulsive attempts at "grinding back" are, at best, inhibiting us from rubbing you the way you want to be rubbed. Also, it makes you look even more pathetic than the rest of the PLs. So just sit back, relax, and let us do our thing already.
If you think you're actually gaining something by trying to move with us, you're an idiot.
Yeah. I'm with Bridgette on this one - mostly. I go to the SC to receive the grindage I don't get at home, where I'm the one usually doing the grinding.
mr_punk
06-07-2007, 05:51 AM
So far no dancer has said no, but rather they hump back faster/harder.really? the nasty skanks. now, that's not temple virgin-like behavior. who knew strippers would do such a thing? obviously, they're not the classy type of stripper one sees on SW.
I'm open to seeing this from the dancer's point of view of course,LOL...why? they're pretty useless because their POV is quite predictable. ie: (1)give me money just for showing up (2) i'm a girl scout. it's like i said earlier, virtual strippers are highly interested in protecting their virtual reputations. but hey, i'm sure the PR helps out when shilling their wares.
xdamage
06-07-2007, 03:00 PM
Don't be ridiculous. I mean we're not food. Food doesn't have feelings. Food doesn't have ownership over its body. We do. It's nothing like putting food in your mouth. Lots of things are sexual reactions. I'm not objecting to actual physical reactions (e.g. erections); I'm objecting to behaviours. Most guys manage to get dances without being dicks about it; I'm not likely to accept biological imperative as an excuse for the few disgusting deviants (no offence FBR - you know I adore you, deviant or no). For the one guy who has never been in a strip club before and has no idea that it is not a date and that "signals" aren't relevant here, I'll let it slide. That's not the usual case.
Our minds don't think alike. The humping to me is just part of a big grey scale of biological behavior that a guy will have an urge to do when put in a sexual situation. It seems that you accept that the fact that a lot of men have erections in this situation(i.e., is a lot like food in that if you put food in someone's mouth that is hungry, they will probably swallow, a biological reaction), but in your mind humping back is radically different. For me though that a guy feels like humping back is just part of a big grey scale of things that a guy will want to do if sexually stimulated. For whatever reasons you've accepted that the erection is probably going to happen and can't be controlled. Often of course it could, if the guy really wanted to try hard and think about something else, but you've drawn a line still somewhat arbitrarily (even though I'm sure it seems to you that there is an absolute and utter difference between these biological behaviors).
The point is fairly subtle and maybe you won't be able to get it, but I don't fundamentally see a guy that humps back as being malicious. Of course the dancer would like him to show more restraint, make more of an effort to limit his biological urges, but fundamentally what is driving him is biological urge, same reason his penis ends up erect when stimulated.
Further, can we keep my "emotions" out of it? I'm talking about basic courtesy and dignity, not tears and sap. The fact that damaging the dancers "emotions" may not figure into a customer's decision making process doesn't mean that he is treating her with basic human respect. I don't think an attitude of "she has no feelings, she's just a stripper" is THAT much better than "Let's hurt her feelings because she's a stripper."
You kind of lost me in all of that... it wasn't about your feeling specifically. The comment was that customers might do something, like hump back, and it's not done out of malice or intent to violate, just like it's not malice if he has an erection and it flips some stripper out who is new or low contact.
xdamage
06-07-2007, 03:25 PM
LOL...why? they're pretty useless because their POV is quite predictable. ie: (1)give me money just for showing up (2) i'm a girl scout.
LOL. You forgot, (3) men/customers suck ;)
Jenny
06-07-2007, 04:24 PM
Yes, x. I'm the problem is that your arguments are too "subtle" for me. With my irrational female mind, I'm just unable to grasp the nuances of your masculine logic. Oh, if only I wasn't so emotional, maybe I could gird my mind up to understand you.
Anyway. Again, you're being ridiculous. A) as I already pointed out, we are not discussing competing desires between you and food, but you and a woman. I feel safe saying that the food has no feelings about being swallowed. You are making a harmless, non-violating physical activity the comparator with a non-harmless and violating activity. I think that makes it fairly useless as an analogy. B) Again. There is a difference between involuntary physical reaction and behaviour. If I've skipped lunch (since you like acting like sex and eating are the same thing) I might salivate while walking by a bakery. It doesn't mean I have to stop and buy the bread, much less does it mean I have to rip it out of the baker's hand. Humping is not a biological imperative, much less in a very regimented and ritualized environment, in which explicit negotiation for contact takes place. We're not talking about a teenager dry humping for the first time, and feeling taken by surprise at good feelings. We're talking about adults actively commodifying sex, who are perfectly aware of what they are doing. You might as well say that a "normal biological reaction" would be sexually assault me because a custy is aroused. There are lots of things that we all sometimes feel like doing that we don't do. Considering the vast majority of customers seem to have mastered this "non-humping" thing, I have difficulty believing that no, you just can't help it.
My comment on emotions was that it is not an issue of having "emotionally hurt feelings" (which you seem to be fixating on), but having a basic right of integrity to my body. A bunch of guys determining, no matter how subliminally, that integrity doesn't matter is not SO different than what you call malice (which I assume you limit to situations of "I'm going to deliberately fuck with this dancer by spitting in her hair when she walks by"). It is, in effect, determining that have fewer rights regarding my physical person than, you know, REAL people. And that is not okay by me.
X, it's really not an uncontrollable urge for me. I mean, I can control it if I want to. If I find the dancer attractive, which is likely or I wouldn't have bought a dance from her in the first place, and if she's grinding me, I'll likely want to hump her because the pressure and movement she is applying to my penis feels good. So at this point, it becomes a crap shoot whether or not humping will gain me even better sensations or piss off the dancer to the point that she will transform her performance into an air dance. Obviously, if the dancer was B or Jenny, I would suddenly find a Maginot Line between my crotch and hers. And maybe even a mean look. But I have found, generally, that dancers who grind more than a couple of seconds don't mind some degree of reciprocal pressure. Those that give your crotch a light, quick once over as part of their dance routine probably would mind.
FBR
xdamage
06-07-2007, 05:12 PM
With my irrational female mind, I'm just unable to grasp the nuances of your masculine logic. Oh, if only I wasn't so emotional, maybe I could gird my mind up to understand you.
Or if you weren't so obsessed with turning every discussion into a male vs female power struggle where men are villians, as this opening sentence attempts to do, you'd probably do better at understanding me too.
X, it's really not an uncontrollable urge for me. I mean, I can control it if I want to
Oh of course, nobody said you or others couldn't control it. We all can control a lot, if we want to. Heck, strippers could choose a job where they don't grind cock and have guys humping them back on a semi-regular basis, if they wanted to.
But it's not strictly about what we can do, but what people choose to do because it feels good for them or benefits them. And in the SC, not everyone gets exactly what they want all the time. As you know, it's constant negotiation, even if a subtle one between what the customer wants and what the dancers want. If it wasn't so we'd still be living in a world where no touching occurs at all in SCs and this discussion would be moot.
The point was simply that your often dealing with a fairly young, sometimes naive, sometimes idealistic types in strip clubs, many of which get pretty freaked out over male reactions in the clubs. Like for some having erections, for some cumming, wanting to touch, or humping back, etc., all more or less the kind of things that people do in sexual situations. I swear I imagine teenage girls sitting around going 'Like ewww, yucky mens pensis...'
I just view that guys hump back as really no big deal that they want to do it. That doesn't mean they should do it. They aren't mutually exclusive. But OTOH they are not abnormal because they want to do it, or even if they lose control occassionally when things heat up. That doesn't mean a dancer shouldn't say no if it exceeds her limits. Unfortunately though it seems many of them feel literally emotionally violated by it, like little kids playing around with fire (well in this case playing with sex), they really don't seem to have a good understanding of how deep or strong the sex drive goes and that 1.) male response to sexual stimulation is not something any man should be ashamed of, it's perfectly normal, and 2.) that a stripper that literally feels emotionally scared by male response probably is in the wrong job. There are 10,000 others she could do where she wouldn't have to grind on a guys cock.
Jenny
06-07-2007, 05:14 PM
Obviously, if the dancer was B or Jenny, I would suddenly find a Maginot Line between my crotch and hers. And maybe even a mean look.
Okay, actually I would probably laugh, shove you down (like, on the couch, not down the stairs) and say "What are you doing? You sit still - I move. Everyone knows guys are lazy - you're meant to like that."
Hey I don't like being humped without permission, but I still like money.
Jenny
06-07-2007, 05:27 PM
The point was simply that your often dealing with a fairly young, sometimes naive, sometimes idealistic types in strip clubs, many of which get pretty freaked out over male reactions in the clubs. Like for some having erections, for some cumming, wanting to touch, or humping back, etc., all more or less the kind of things that people do in sexual situations. I swear I imagine teenage girls sitting around going 'Like ewww, yucky mens pensis...'
That's because you have an incredibly dated, silly and somewhat sexist view of how teenage girls view sex.
But OTOH they are not abnormal because they want to do it, or even if they lose control occassionally when things heat up.
Well nobody said that they were abnormal for wanting to. I said they were abnormal for DOING it, and moreover for determining that touching me sexually without any real sense if I was okay with it.
Unfortunately though it seems many of them feel literally emotionally violated by it, like little kids playing around with fire (well in this case playing with sex), they really don't seem to have a good understanding of how deep or strong the sex drive goes and that 1.) male response to sexual stimulation is not something any man should be ashamed of, it's perfectly normal, and 2.) that a stripper that literally feels emotionally scared by male response probably is in the wrong job. There are 10,000 others she could do where she wouldn't have to grind on a guys cock.
Again, what a stupid thing to say. Why in the world would we not know how deep or strong the sex drive is? I mean, how do you think that this knowledge escapes us? I mean we are human beings after all.
Further don't you think it's cute how the person who is violating someone's integrity is just doing what is natural, and the person being violated is in the wrong job? When I say cute, of course, I mean an irretrievably self-serving and narrow view of people. Maybe if guys cannot control the motion of their hips whenever they get excited they should get a new hobby? Maybe customers should realize that contact in strip clubs (as everywhere else) is negotiated and agreed upon and probably shouldn't be unilaterally experimented with. And maybe customers shouldn't conflate simple issues of BODILY INTEGRITY with "emotional scarring". It is very simple. You shouldn't touch people without permission. You would have no problem applying that axiom to yourself or your daughter; I don't see why you have such difficulty in applying it to us.
mr_punk
06-07-2007, 06:36 PM
But I have found, generally, that dancers who grind more than a couple of seconds don't mind some degree of reciprocal pressure.LOL...you too, huh? i bet you didn't need the useless POV from some girl scout to find that out.
xdamage
06-07-2007, 06:48 PM
That's because you have an incredibly dated, silly and somewhat sexist view of how teenage girls view sex.
LMAO. We are all here reading this site and some of pink. Seriously I know you believe at 20 something that you are all radically different then your previous generation. It's not so but its mildly amusing that you believe so. By 40 or so you will sound like me and realize that the next generation just thinks they are radically different, and you'll realize, they aren't. Experience FTW. But we all read the stripper comments here and you're just not that different from the previous generations (even though it strokes your ego to believe that you are).
The guys here laugh there asses off because a tattoo, a bit of metal through one's skin, really doesn't make anyone in modern day dramatically different. They laugh because they and the girls they knew were everybit as horney. And they laugh because every generation thinks they have some unique lock-down on sex that the previous generation didn't. Except your genes and your brain really are pretty much identical to the generation before you, and except for some very minor social differences, you believe you are radically different out of ignorance (aka lack of experience and perspective), and nothing more then that.
Sorry to burst your bubble kiddo, but this gave me a great laugh. Bad news, your previous generation - NASTY MOFOs. Sad but true, they were doing all the shit you are just discovering and think you have a unique lock-on. LOL - NOT.
The bad news in all of this Jenny is that the Canadian school system is very much outdated. I know you think you have a lock-down on feminism. Seriously though I laugh my ass off when at most of your posts. You recite old news like it's your original thought. I know it sucks, but your among a group of guys who have a lot of experience on you. Been there, done that, stop being such a TOOL woman. There is more to learn out there then the old news crap they teach you in Canada.,
Well nobody said that they were abnormal for wanting to. I said they were abnormal for DOING it, and moreover for determining that touching me sexually without any real sense if I was okay with it.
Well here I do agree with you. It is unfortunate that many men don't realize at all that it's not okay. That was my point, and for some reason you attacked me for it. I actually was backing you with regards to that, but ... the subtlety is I don't think those customers are intentionally malicious. I do agree though that you have every right to set your limits. OTOH I don't think customers violate those limits with the intent of being malicious.
Again, what a stupid thing to say. Why in the world would we not know how deep or strong the sex drive is? I mean, how do you think that this knowledge escapes us? I mean we are human beings after all.
I just look at what people write here, and it doesn't appear at all that as strippers or as women (I'm not sure which) that you're depth of sex drive matches the mens, and if it does, well, I would imagine you and your colleagues would express a bit more compassion towards your customers overly eager behaviors.
Your human yes, but your not a male. When you have the same level of testosterone flowing through your veins and arteries, when your brain structure matches ours, then I'd guess you'd actually get it. Until then your own writing reveals that you really don't get it.
You shouldn't touch people without permission. You would have no problem applying that axiom to yourself or your daughter; I don't see why you have such difficulty in applying it to us.
Again, I think the subtlety is lost on you. You want absolutes. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of two parties, both with their own wants and desires, not being exactly in sync, at odds, always a power struggle, being a GOOD and NATURAL state. You seem to want to reduce this to the stripper is always right, customer is always wrong. That's simple, but not the way I see it at all.
I think while it's very clear in your mind what your limits are and you'd like to have what you want always without question, this is not the real world. Those customers that you hold in such negative esteem, well $400 or whatever an hour represents a LOT of hours of work for them. What is permitted and what is not is fuzzy in their mind. You can make it personal, or you can face it as fact. Honestly Jenny, you fit in my model of women that should not be doing this job. You take far too much far too personally and I'd say that if you can't see this from the customers POV as well as your own, your the kind of girl I'd say to GET THE FUCK out of the clubs and do something else for a living.
Seriously JENNY - GET THE FUCK OUT OF STRIPPING. In every post you make you make it clear, this business is not for you. There are thousands of other careers out there. Sure, they dont pay as much but really, you'd be so much better off in a career where you had to compete with males or cooperate them. Not everyone has what it takes emotionally to strip for a living, and really, it's not the only career choice on the planet.
Jenny
06-07-2007, 10:59 PM
LMAO. We are all here reading this site and some of pink. Seriously I know you believe at 20 something that you are all radically different then your previous generation.
Oh honey. This is so naive it's not quite cute. But almost. I OBVIOUSLY don't think that we're so different from previous generations. I think we're different than how you perceive previous generations. Because of your silly, conditioned response to female sexuality. You know the one. That thing that insists that women want sex, while simultaneously insisting that we don't know what it feels like to want sex? That.
It's not so but its mildly amusing that you believe so. By 40 or so you will sound like me and realize that the next generation just thinks they are radically different, and you'll realize, they aren't.
Honey, you don't know how old I am now. But it is sort of ... you know, cute and pathetic and sad how you trot out the "I'm superior because I'm older" line when you are grossly outmanned (or even "outwomanned"). Good luck with that on girls who might be young enough to fall for it.
They laugh because they and the girls they knew were everybit as horney. And they laugh because every generation thinks they have some unique lock-down on sex that the previous generation didn't. Except your genes and your brain really are pretty much identical to the generation before you, and except for some very minor social differences, you believe you are radically different out of ignorance (aka lack of experience and perspective), and nothing more then that.
Dude - I'm not the one saying that women can't understand the raw fundamental power of sex drive. That was you. Which is why the girls here laugh their asses off. Because you actually, honest and truly, believe that you are cleverer than us. You can't even keep track of what you are trying to say, let alone what WE are trying to say.
The bad news in all of this Jenny is that the Canadian school system is very much outdated. I know you think you have a lock-down on feminism. Seriously though I laugh my ass off when at most of your posts. You recite old news like it's your original thought. I know it sucks, but your among a group of guys who have a lot of experience on you. Been there, done that, stop being such a TOOL woman. There is more to learn out there then the old news crap they teach you in Canada.,
Oh that's sweet. Except, you know. Trying to excite a nationalistic response.
Honey.
I don't know how to tell you this.
I'm smarter than you. Like, by a lot. I'm sorry. I know you haven't realized, because I also have an actual sense of humour. But you can't really make me mad, hon. You're not really equipped. You can keep trying though, if it makes you feel good - like you're playing with the big kids. Now keep in mind that this isn't something I would say to just anyone. I have to feel, like really, really sure.
the subtlety is I don't think those customers are intentionally malicious. I do agree though that you have every right to set your limits. OTOH I don't think customers violate those limits with the intent of being malicious.
Oh sweetie. My entire point was "so what"? I really shouldn't bait you like this. It's sort of unkind, isn't it?
I just look at what people write here, and it doesn't appear at all that as strippers or as women (I'm not sure which) that you're depth of sex drive matches the mens, and if it does, well, I would imagine you and your colleagues would express a bit more compassion towards your customers overly eager behaviors.
What happened to "they were every bit as horney"? [sic]. Did you just... forget about that part? Well, like I said. It's probably unkind to bait you. I'm sorry. It's kind of like poking a retarded boy with a stick. I would never do it in real life, but somehow here it seems like it should be okay.
Your human yes, but your not a male. When you have the same level of testosterone flowing through your veins and arteries, when your brain structure matches ours, then I'd guess you'd actually get it. Until then your own writing reveals that you really don't get it.
I don't get... what? Having a sex drive? Or the need to unconsensually hump women? If it is the former... I think you're a little naive, sweetie. With your dated, immature view of female sexuality and all (I assume that you are too old to accept any real growth there so you will have to just deal with that limitation). If it's the latter - the majority of my customers don't get it either. So you and punk are alone on this one. Together. Have fun.
Again, I think the subtlety is lost on you. You want absolutes. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of two parties, both with their own wants and desires, not being exactly in sync, at odds, always a power struggle, being a GOOD and NATURAL state.
No. You're right. I want negotiation and agreement. I want, before someone touches me, for me to say "Okay." And you're arguing that this is a state of civilization far too advanced for men. I disagree. I think they are well and easily capable of saying "Do you mind if... " (and you may fill in your blank). And it is simple. And it is OBVIOUSLY not the way you see it. And that is why... you are wrong, and I am right. And moreover, since I doubt you would apply the same standards to yourself in dealing with unwanted contact, it is what makes you a hypocrite. Have fun with that.
I think while it's very clear in your mind what your limits are and you'd like to have what you want always without question, this is not the real world.
Thank you! I've been waiting my whole life for someone to inform me on this "real world" everyone keeps speaking of. Since I live in a fraggle palace on the moon, you know, it just escapes me. I know nothing about the sex industry or how the average man acts in a strip club, being hatched from an egg, yesterday. Thank you, so much! Without this guidance I don't know what I would have done.
Those customers that you hold in such negative esteem, well $400 or whatever an hour represents a LOT of hours of work for them. What is permitted and what is not is fuzzy in their mind.
So what? That is why I recommend (strongly) that they ask. Either before or after they pay. I make my money honest and upfront, and I expect them to attain their touch the same way. That is the "real world" - the "fake world" is this imaginary land you've created where these customers labour counts for so much more than mine, that my body is not just negotiable but surrendered. Customers ask me every night I work what is allowed and what is not. It's not some weird, deviant act.
Honestly Jenny, you fit in my model of women that should not be doing this job.
Well, thankfully, baby, nobody asked you.
You take far too much far too personally and I'd say that if you can't see this from the customers POV as well as your own, your the kind of girl I'd say to GET THE FUCK out of the clubs and do something else for a living.
This sounds so idiotic. Seeing things from the customer's point of view doesn't make the customer right. These customers to whom you are referring are WRONG. The general attitude here of "just try it and see" is wrong. Being empathic doesn't change that. By the way, x, hon - you could be taking my critique of customers overly personally. You're not one of my customers, and frankly, I doubt you would ever agree to pay me enough to overcome my natural irritation with guys like you. There is really no need to get quite so worked up over the whole thing.
Seriously JENNY - GET THE FUCK OUT OF STRIPPING. In every post you make you make it clear, this business is not for you. There are thousands of other careers out there. Sure, they dont pay as much but really, you'd be so much better off in a career where you had to compete with males or cooperate them. Not everyone has what it takes emotionally to strip for a living, and really, it's not the only career choice on the planet.
Dude. Seriously. There is no way in which you can possibly think it is appropriate for you to tell me what to do. Are you this out of touch with reality and common courtesy? I don't like you and I think I'm smarter than you and I don't find you very insightful. I realize that this is irritating to you, but even you can't be SO egotistical as to take that as an indication of my career options. It could actually be just that you are not all THAT clever. I'm sorry, I realize it has never been put quite that bluntly to you before, but I think it's time that you just faced it and dealt and then moved on. It's not that I hate men or customers. It's just that I really and honestly don't think very much of you. Like you, personally. You need to stop confusing yourself with all of humankind. Really, I'm sorry. It's just... me not agreeing with you REALLY doesn't mean anything bigger than that. There is not hidden meaning outside of I just don't think you are very smart. I'm sure you are not ACTUALLY really stupid. Like, you at least act like you hold a full time job, and you seem to be literate. But really. Not much more can be said for you than that. Just face it, deal and move on. Okay? Okay then. Upwards and onwards, right?
Darcy Foxx
06-08-2007, 12:38 AM
If anyone on this board is cut out to be a stripper, it's Jenny. She's a hell of a lot tougher than most of us. ;)
Just because a person would rather be ASKED first before you start thrusting your groin at them, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be doing the job. That's just basic human courtesy. Yeah, there's plenty of girls who don't mind if you grind at them, and there's plenty that do. There's also plenty of clubs that allow this kind of thing, and a whole lot that don't. I don't see why it's such an issue. If a girl says thrusting at her is okay, then great, get that groin a-grinding. If a girl doesn't like it and asks you to stop, whatever, sit still and respect her rights as a human being, don't extend the dance and next time try to find someone who'll let you do what you want.
There's a lot of girls out there who don't want the customer to grind back, and there's a lot of customers out there who don't want to grind back. Wouldn't you rather have a dance with a girl who is comfortable with you grinding her and therefore gives a good dance, rather than pissing off a girl who doesn't like it and is going to spend the rest of the dance standing a foot away from you rubbing her boobs? Find a girl that's happy with it, and leave the non-grinding girls to the non-grinding customers.
Seems like common sense to me....
mr_punk
06-08-2007, 04:40 AM
She's a hell of a lot tougher than most of us.i like to think of it more as feminist rabidness.
Yeah, there's plenty of girls who don't mind if you grind at them, and there's plenty that do. There's also plenty of clubs that allow this kind of thing, and a whole lot that don't.really? whew, that's a load off my mind. why, i never would have known there are of clubs and girls that do allow it without another helpful lecture from a stripper. thank you so much for the insightful, stripper's POV, princess.
Wouldn't you rather have a dance with a girl who is comfortable with you grinding her and therefore gives a good dance, rather than pissing off a girl who doesn't like it and is going to spend the rest of the dance standing a foot away from you rubbing her boobs?i wouldn't know. you see, i don't go to clubs where the girls are that lame or post on SW.
xdamage
06-08-2007, 05:30 AM
Because of your silly, conditioned response to female sexuality. You know the one. That thing that insists that women want sex, while simultaneously insisting that we don't know what it feels like to want sex? That.
That's your preconceived notion about how men think that you have projected. It sounds like your about 25 years behind the U.S.A. in terms of feminist think. Actually modern day women in the U.S.A. actually do get that men get that women enjoy sex. Old news. But my views are apparently incomprehensible to you. Like for example, times actually have changed, and part of that change is we've learned that men and women are different in many ways above and beyond the smallest difference that is visible to your eyes. It doesn't fit 25 year old beliefs, but oh well, maybe one day you'll catch up with that news, and factor it into your world view.
Dude. Seriously. There is no way in which you can possibly think it is appropriate for you to tell me what to do.
Dude, seriously, you spend so much time over on BLUE trying to tell us customers and men how to think that yes, you have earned some reverse advice.
There are thousands of other jobs where you could get to experience men from the perspective of working along side them, or in competition with them, on an intellectual level, in which you don't grind on their cocks for money. Seriously it would seem like a good idea for you to spend some more time getting to know the male half of the species in some way other then in the context of rubbing their dicks. You might actually learn some new things about us, and maybe even be able to come to BLUE and contribute here without turning every into an emotional one about you personally.
xdamage
06-08-2007, 05:37 AM
Just because a person would rather be ASKED first before you start thrusting your groin at them, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be doing the job. ... I don't see why it's such an issue. ...Seems like common sense to me....
It was not an issue, and it is indeed common sense. It only got turned into an issue because like usual, Jenny comes to BLUE and turns every topic into a why men/customers suck thread, and makes it an emotional crisis about her. She doesn't actually read our posts objectively, she just looks for a reason to tell us all why we suck.
And this is why she should try another line of work, a line of work where she is put in a position of using her brains to work along side men, or in competition, rather then one that feeds into her twisted men-suck world-view. Toughness isn't the issue, but you are what you eat, and when you fill your life with cock-grinding all day, and selling sex services, it does impact on one's view of the world and others. Not everyone can do so day in and day out and maintain a balanced world view (i.e. like customers don't spend that much time in clubs, and for the most part we go to work, contribute to society, have relationships, kids, etc., all those things that have lead up to the freedoms, longer life, medicine, dentistry, fast travel, instant world-wide communications, technological wonders that we all enjoy today and most of us take for granted- yes, those evil men actually have managed to do some things that didn't involve getting their dicks rubbed).
mr_punk
06-08-2007, 06:21 AM
It was not an issue, and it is indeed common sense. It only got turned into an issue because like usual, Jenny comes to BLUE and turns every topic into a why men/customers suck thread, and makes it an emotional crisis about her. She doesn't actually read our posts objectively, she just looks for a reason to tell us all why we suck.nah, she turns every issue into a feminist issue. but hey, she is a radical feminist. i just find it ironic that if customer exhibited a similar behavior on SW. she would raise hell about it or nuke their thread. look, the best way to deal with her is to tell her to stick to what strippers know best down here (ie: STFU, looking pretty and smiling). besides, feminists like that kind of response.}:D
Jenny
06-08-2007, 06:21 AM
That's your preconceived notion about how men think that you have projected. It sounds like your about 25 years behind the U.S.A. in terms of feminist think. Actually modern day women in the U.S.A. actually do get that men get that women enjoy sex.
Old news. But my views are apparently incomprehensible to you.
Dude. Again. I'M not the one saying that we don't understand having a sex drive. That's you. And it's unsurprising that your views are incomprehensible to me, considering that your views seem equally incomprehensible to you.
Like for example, times actually have changed, and part of that change is we've learned that men and women are different in many ways above and beyond the smallest difference that is visible to your eyes.
That's a change? No, baby, that notion isn't new. Although technically, traditionally woman have been thought of as animalistic sensualists who couldn't control themselves... but I suppose "Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus" has taught you otherwise.
Dude, seriously, you spend so much time over on BLUE trying to tell us customers and men how to think that yes, you have earned some reverse advice.
I would never tell you how to think. I tell you how to act. I get that "Ask a woman before touching her" goes against every grain of your being, but...
There are thousands of other jobs where you could get to experience men from the perspective of working along side them, or in competition with them, on an intellectual level, in which you don't grind on their cocks for money. Seriously it would seem like a good idea for you to spend some more time getting to know the male half of the species in some way other then in the context of rubbing their dicks. You might actually learn some new things about us, and maybe even be able to come to BLUE and contribute here without turning every into an emotional one about you personally.
Personally, I think you should see fewer strippers. You are evidently so used to women who are giving you your way and acting like you are smarter than them in exchange for money, that you've gotten the idea that we should do it for free. Nothing is for free, baby. If you want me to pretend that you are my equal, you have to pony up just like any other customer. And now you're doing Punky's bit and exerting the "this is our board and you either agree with us or go." What happened to "we're all so tough here, unlike those pinkies who have to banish us rather than hear our point of view"? One stripper tell you that she's smarter than you and you turn into a whiny little girl with her hands over her ears shouting "nuh uh! Nuh uh!"
I take it back - no wonder you see strippers.
dayzed
06-08-2007, 06:43 AM
I'm more in the "sit back and be serviced" than "grind back" camp, but with respect to any of these activities, I don't really see any drawback to asking first.
Jenny
06-08-2007, 06:59 AM
nah, she turns every issue into a feminist issue. but hey, she is a radical feminist. i just find it ironic that if customer exhibited a similar behavior on SW. she would raise hell about it or nuke their thread. look, the best way to deal with her is to tell her to stick to what strippers know best down here (ie: STFU, looking pretty and smiling). besides, feminists like that kind of response.}:D
Yeah, unwanted sexual contact is a feminist issue until someone shoves a broomstick up your ass. Then suddenly it's an issue for everyone. And you guys were the ones that told me that you were tough and you could take it, and that we were inferior for needing to be guarded from bad men like you. Weren't you? I mean, I picked up that idea from somewhere. And, technically - look at the address bar. You're STILL on stripperweb.
ETA - in case this is misunderstood. This was not a threat or anything. I am getting nowhere near your ass with a phallic object for love or money. It was just. You know. And example.
mr_punk
06-08-2007, 07:11 AM
Yeah, unwanted sexual contact is a feminist issue until someone shoves a broomstick up your ass.obviously, i have to repeat myself. i don't go to clubs where the girls are that lame with respect to unwanted sexual contact or post on SW.
And you guys were the ones that told me that you were tough and you could take it, and that we were inferior for needing to be guarded from bad men like you. Weren't you? I mean, I picked up that idea from somewhere.frankly, it's a lot more fun to rip your feminist views (which have nothing to do with customers or this site) rather than discuss your feminist views. why, you've become the female version of Star Player, except if JZ and FBR weren't the mods (and your fellow mod), you would probably have points up to your ass.
And, technically - look at the address bar. You're STILL on stripperweb.And, technically - look at the header. it says a site for customers not strippers. now, give me a smile, baby.
Jenny
06-08-2007, 07:19 AM
frankly, it's a lot more fun to rip your feminist views (which have nothing to do with customers or this site) rather than discuss your feminist views.
I believe it.
why, you've become the female version of Star Player, except if JZ and FBR weren't the mods (and your fellow mod), you would probably have points up to your ass.
Well - it's a good thing I never posted here until I became a mod then. Or else, god knows what would have happened. I likely would have been banned already.
And, technically - look at the header. it says a site for customers not strippers. now, give me a smile, baby.
I told you. Bad teeth.
mr_punk
06-08-2007, 09:31 AM
Well - it's a good thing I never posted here until I became a mod then. Or else, god knows what would have happened. I likely would have been banned already.no, FRB and JZ never extended you more or less latitude than anyone else. i'm just saying someone else as mod probably wouldn't (BTW, you should either blow them or bake them a batch of cookies as a way of saying thanks). but hey, i wouldn't want it any other way because it would mean less opportunities for me to goof on radical feminism, derek..uh..jenny.
Littlelo
06-08-2007, 12:33 PM
....you see, i don't go to clubs where the girls are that lame or post on SW.
Of course not! Why would you want a literate woman with self respect? Ew gross! I mean everyone knows strippers should be ignorant and dirty! *eye roll*
So, we either let you do/say whatever you want or we're crazy rabid feminists? I'm not a feminist, I don't put down all customers and I enjoy my job. That said, I want to adress this topic.
When I used to do lap dances and guys would grind back sometimes I'd grin and bear it. I didn't feel violated, just annoyed. Most of the time I'd just tell them to sit still. It made it harder to balance. It threw off my dance. It made me grind less because its not comfortable. And most of all *ding ding ding* its lame. A guy who grinds back, in my mind, is a man with no control, dignity or respect for me or himself. (And don't even get me started about the guys who grind the air and moan while I do a no-contact dance.....that's just wierd.)
So, you've heard from several of us that we don't like it. Will you believe us and realize that we represent a broad spectrum of the industry, or will you insist that we're just feminists who shouldn't be dancing?
Darcy Foxx
06-08-2007, 02:36 PM
now, give me a smile, baby.
You really need some new material.
really? whew, that's a load off my mind. why, i never would have known there are of clubs and girls that do allow it without another helpful lecture from a stripper. thank you so much for the insightful, stripper's POV, princess.
Anytime. I like to think of myself as an untapped fountain of wisdom and knowledge.
i wouldn't know. you see, i don't go to clubs where the girls are that lame or post on SW.
Well that's good, because I don't work in clubs where the customers are as vile as you, so I guess it works out best for the both of us then :)
mdiver
06-08-2007, 02:51 PM
obviously, i have to repeat myself. i don't go to clubs where the girls are that lame with respect to unwanted sexual contact or post on SW.
Reminds me of a funny story. A couple of months ago I went to the local stripclub and one of the dancers gave me a blow job in the vip. After I was done, I said "you don't belong to stripperweb do you?" and she said "those tight ass biatches, no way"
xdamage
06-08-2007, 02:52 PM
I get that "Ask a woman before touching her" goes against every grain of your being, but...
I somehow imagine you making the dramatic sweeping motion of the arm gesture while you typed this, particularly the "against every grain of your being part" - so dramatic. You know, the "I'm just a poor victim of evil villian men" gesture. Unfortunately though you are now making things up to continue your wallow in self-pity against the evil patriarchy. Nobody wrote anything at all like what you wrote, quite the opposite, but then our views are far more moderate, and just not as much fun as extreme villianizations like "every grain of ... etc".
As I said, you really need to get a job that doesn't feed into your adversarial views of men. I'm not sure how many posters on the blue site have to say it before eventually (and if) it sinks in that your misandry is getting in the way of your ability to understand us guys.
Personally, I think you should see fewer strippers.
Actually I see strippers maybe once a year for a few hours total. I don't live there, nor do I work there. My exposure to the unnatural environment that is the strip club is limited and has very little impact on my world view. You on the other hand seem to have ended up like the stereotypical man hating stripper. It's not the worlds best environment. If anyone could use less of it, I would say it's you. I think you should see fewer customers - you seem to have developed a fairly warped view about men.
And just a reminder, I like most of the guys here on this site grew up around or shortly after the 60s in the USA. We grew up with the notions that women are similar (not identical) to men, and worthy of equal rights all our life. Maybe this is all a big revolution in Canada, but you're not teaching us anything new Jenny. The only difference is we are well past the viva-la-revolution stage in the USA. We are well into the moderate, okay now women have equal rights, the responsibility to exercise them now falls on the women's shoulders. While there are minor issues that remain, men in the US even understand things like women get pleasure from sex, why there is even scientific proof we learned of 40 years ago proving it, well before you were born. We don't need you to straight us out or teach us. We were partying and doing the nasty, men and women, in the 60s/70s while you were still playing with stuffed animals if you were even born yet.
mr_punk
06-08-2007, 09:37 PM
You really need some new material.oy, everyone's a critic.
Anytime. I like to think of myself as an untapped fountain of wisdom and knowledge.and one can only hope that you stay untapped.
Well that's good, because I don't work in clubs where the customers are as vile as you, so I guess it works out best for the both of us thenexcellent, i'm glad you things my way. BTW, thank you for bestowing me with your approval, princess. it's nice to receive absolution from your holiness.
mr_punk
06-08-2007, 09:43 PM
So, we either let you do/say whatever you want or we're crazy rabid feminists? I'm not a feminist, I don't put down all customers and I enjoy my job.no. AFAIK, jenny is the only radical feminist down here. she's never made it a secret. furthermore, i'm not implying that feminism or feminists are man-haters. it's just a sociopolitical view.
When I used to do lap dances and guys would grind back sometimes I'd grin and bear it. I didn't feel violated, just annoyed. Most of the time I'd just tell them to sit still. It made it harder to balance. It threw off my dance. It made me grind less because its not comfortable. And most of all *ding ding ding* its lame.well, every girl isn't YOU and they don't post on SW. surely, i don't have to lecture you about strippers whose morals are looser, their sense of timing and balance much better, than yours.
A guy who grinds back, in my mind, is a man with no control, dignity or respect for me or himself. (And don't even get me started about the guys who grind the air and moan while I do a no-contact dance.....that's just wierd.)LOL..okay, but i'm still going to grind back with strippers who are *surprise!!!* a lot less lame than you. furthermore, if you think i'm supposed to feel chagrined because i do grind back. frankly, i would find that pretty hilarious coming from a stripper who rubs on dicks. i'm just saying.
So, you've heard from several of us that we don't like it. Will you believe us and realize that we represent a broad spectrum of the industry, or will you insist that we're just feminists who shouldn't be dancing?have you been reading this thread? i do believe you, but it was never an issue until someone turned the discussion into a NOW rally. but hey, thanks for adding absolutely nothing to the thread except advertisement time.
xdamage
06-08-2007, 10:10 PM
furthermore, i'm not implying that feminism or feminists are man-haters. it's just a sociopolitical view.
Ideally that is the case. In practice? Haters are often attracted to groups that roughly align with their hatred agenda, but by associating themselves with a legit group, manage to hide their real agenda (sometimes even from themselves). Like I said, most of us have grown up with feminism from toddler age in the USA; hardly new or news for most of us. Still, I can't help but think that stripping attracts a fair share of man-haters, or breeds them, I'm not sure which comes first, the chicken or the egg, not that it matters any in the end. Feminism isn't about man-hating. OTOH some man-haters are attracted to feminism, and pollute the ideal feminist sociopolitical view with their own misandry. A really good hater actually enjoys the hating. They get enjoyment out of it, it makes them feel important, adds meaning to their lives, and allows them to avoid dealing wih their own problems. They actively seek out work, literature, and friends who feed into it. Hatred can be fun!!!
Darcy Foxx
06-08-2007, 10:28 PM
oy, everyone's a critic.
and one can only hope that you stay untapped.
excellent, i'm glad you things my way
I prefer to see it as you seeing things my way ;)
xdamage
06-08-2007, 10:34 PM
A guy who grinds back, in my mind, is a man with no control, dignity or respect for me or himself.
...
So, you've heard from several of us that we don't like it. Will you believe us and realize that we represent a broad spectrum of the industry, or will you insist that we're just feminists who shouldn't be dancing?
I think you kind of misunderstood mr. p's point. Based on his previous posts, I'm 99.99999% certain he is fully aware that a lot or strippers don't like it when a guy grinds back. He is also never said in any post that he has any urge to "make" them do anything they don't want to do, nor has any other customer on blue as far as I remember.
What he has said is (and I am paraphrasing) that it's his dollar, not yours. He will spend it how he wants, not how you want, and that the strippers on SW do not speak for the entire industry. In fact I believe that the strippers on SW are either unusual, or have virtual reputations to maintain, because while no girl on SW wants to be raked over the coals for doing "extras" and admitting to it, our experiences as customers is that what we really happens in the clubs is much less clean then the picture painted on SW.
So, if you find it offensive, he (nor any customer) will NOT make you do anything you don't want to do. He (and many customers) will simply spend their money on someone who will, and there are plenty that will. And if you think about it, it makes no sense for a customer not to get the most for their dollar.
Also, and I'm not sure how to put this, but there is so much deep seated irony in the notion of a dancer looking down on a customer for "grinding back" On the one hand I can see it from your viewpoint. On the other hand, I see it as truly funny that you could see a customer has having no dignity or self respect for grinding back when a stripper does this very thing multiple times a day for a living. Being paid for something doesn't necessarily make it any more (or less) dignified, or respectful. Behavior is what it is. Well at least not from a certain point of view. I guess you have to be a customer to see the humor in a stripper looking down on a customer for something he does rarely, she does often. I know, strippers see their behavior as unique because they are paid, but trust me, there is a viewpoint which is that behavior is what behavior is - if it's undignified or lacking in self-respect, it's so whether or not you do it for personal pleasure or personal gain (e.g., for $$s). You grind for personal gain. A customer grinds for personal pleasure. From a certain point of view, your personal gain is not a better reason to do something then a customer doing something for personal pleasure. You may not get sexual pleasure out of the behavior, but you get money. Doing something for money doesn't make everything right, or more dignified; it's just what you want so you do it because it's what you want. Same as customers, doing it for reasons that they want.
Darcy Foxx
06-08-2007, 10:52 PM
Well said, xdamage.
Whilst I am, as we all know, a cunty little princess, I completely agree with the basic theory that (oh, God, I can't believe I'm saying this) mr. p and xdamage are saying. I personally won't tolerate guys grinding back at me, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with the behaviour so long as the stripper in question is okay with it, and that the action doesn't continue if the girl asks them to stop.
I'm not going to completely freak out if someone does it to me, I just ask them politely, "Could you please sit still and not do that?" and if they continue, I'll tell them, "Would you fucking stop?! I told you not to do that, if you continue to thrust your pelvis at me I'm walking out and you don't get a refund." I'm not going to squeal and say it's gross, I'll give them two warnings and ask them to respect my boundaries, and if they keep doing it then I'll walk out of the dance. I don't think I'm being unreasonable with that.
xdamage
06-08-2007, 11:00 PM
I personally won't tolerate guys grinding back at me, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with the behaviour so long as the stripper in question is okay with it, and that the action doesn't continue if the girl asks them to stop.
Absolutely. No customer as far as I know has ever said otherwise on the blue site. The final word about a stripper's body ALWAYS comes down to the stripper. She always has the right to say NO, and customers should ALWAYS respect that. OTOH customers may go find another dancer who will do more, but no body has ever said (as far as I know) that you don't or shouldn't have the right to decide for yourself what you are okay with.
I'm not going to completely freak out if someone does it to me, I just ask them...
That was the point I was trying to make with J. It's just not something to completely freak out over. Of course it would be better if customers asked first (although admittedly I'm not quite sure how you ask this - lol), but if it does happen, it's no big deal. So the guy is turned on, he does it, just say no if it's not okay. It's going to happen, it's not something to totally freak out over, just say no, keep it about business, and move on.
Darcy Foxx
06-08-2007, 11:32 PM
Heh, I think amongst all the bickering we all forgot that whilst we have extremely varying points of view, we all agree on the same BASIC fundamental idea.
I'm not gonna look down on a guy for trying to grind at me, because I understand that a lot of girls allow/encourage it so a customer may assume he can do it to me too. If he stops when I ask him to, no problem at all. It's only when they go against my wishes that I think badly of them. I'm a stripper, and I'm not gonna kid myself, I don't expect to be treated like a beautiful high-class entertainer by the majority of our customers... But I do expect to have the right to say what another person can and can not do to my body. If you choose to violate those rights after I've asked you twice not to, then I'll cut the dance and you can go find someone who caters better to your needs.
xdamage
06-08-2007, 11:36 PM
Heh, I think amongst all the bickering we all forgot that whilst we have extremely varying points of view, we all agree on the same BASIC fundamental idea.
I'm not gonna look down on a guy for trying to grind at me, because I understand that a lot of girls allow/encourage it so a customer may assume he can do it to me too. If he stops when I ask him to, no problem at all. It's only when they go against my wishes that I think badly of them. I'm a stripper, and I'm not gonna kid myself, I don't expect to be treated like a beautiful high-class entertainer by the majority of our customers... But I do expect to have the right to say what another person can and can not do to my body. If you choose to violate those rights after I've asked you twice not to, then I'll cut the dance and you can go find someone who caters better to your needs.
Perfectly said, and exactly the customer point of view as well. And you nailed it when you wrote that a lot of girls do allow and encourage it, so exactly what is and isn't allowed is fuzzy in the customer's mind. It's going to happen, guys get turned on, some other dancers allowed it, even encouraged it, it's not a major insult, and it's not the end of the world, a turned on guy grinding back. Just say no if it's not cool with you, and the vast majority of customers (certainly all of the customers who post regularly on the blue site) understand no means no.
Littlelo
06-08-2007, 11:39 PM
Also, and I'm not sure how to put this, but there is so much deep seated irony in the notion of a dancer looking down on a customer for "grinding back" On the one hand I can see it from your viewpoint. On the other hand, I see it as truly funny that you could see a customer has having no dignity or self respect for grinding back when a stripper does this very thing multiple times a day for a living. Being paid for something doesn't necessarily make it any more (or less) dignified, or respectful. Behavior is what it is. Well at least not from a certain point of view. I guess you have to be a customer to see the humor in a stripper looking down on a customer for something he does rarely, she does often. I know, strippers see their behavior as unique because they are paid, but trust me, there is a viewpoint which is that behavior is what behavior is - if it's undignified or lacking in self-respect, it's so whether or not you do it for personal pleasure or personal gain (e.g., for $$s). You grind for personal gain. A customer grinds for personal pleasure. From a certain point of view, your personal gain is not a better reason to do something then a customer doing something for personal pleasure. You may not get sexual pleasure out of the behavior, but you get money. Doing something for money doesn't make everything right, or more dignified; it's just what you want so you do it because it's what you want. Same as customers, doing it for reasons that they want.
Fair enough, I suppose. I stand corrected. (They still look silly to me when they get all squirmy though, I can't help that.)
And Mr. Punk's right, I am "lame". I haven't done a contact in many years and I won't tolerate touching at all. Not my thing. Being lame in Mr_Punk's eyes is totally ok by me.
That said, I'm going back to the pink side.
xdamage
06-08-2007, 11:44 PM
Fair enough, I suppose. I stand corrected. (They still look silly to me when they get all squirmy though, I can't help that.)
And Mr. Punk's right, I am "lame". I haven't done a contact in many years and I won't tolerate touching at all. Not my thing. Being lame in Mr_Punk's eyes is totally ok by me.
That said, I'm going back to the pink side.
I guess you have to understand the beauty of the blue side. We have these debates, but in the end we are all friends. Guys don't really got a lot of pleasure out of being right or correcting, but we vigorously stand up for what we believe. It's one of those great things about being a guy. We can have some major fights but at the end of the day we are all buds, old news is forgotten, and we look forward to the future. I guess the point is you are completely welcome on the blue side. We have these disagreements but they imply nothing about welcomeness. On the blue side you have already gained admiration points for speaking your mind and jousting fairly ;)
Darcy Foxx
06-09-2007, 12:14 AM
...and the vast majority of customers (certainly all of the customers who post regularly on the blue site) understand no means no.
You'd be surprised. More often than not, they keep doing it. I'd say on average only about 30% of customers stop when I ask them to.
It's like the guys who try to touch. You get the occasional guy who genuinely thought that touching was allowed and once you tell them no, they stop immediately and behave themselves, but the majority will continue to try and try and try until you just have to walk out of the dance. The worst culprits are the ones who don't try to go for the full-on grope, but more so just slyly move their hand closer and closer to your thigh til their thumb is gently rubbing against it (oddly enough, I get less angry about someone just outwardly grabbing my boob than someone continually try to intimately stroke my thigh... that just makes my skin crawl). No matter how many times you tell them to stop, they just do not care at all and keep trying. That, I think, is despicable behaviour.
If you think girls with my boundaries are lame, that's fine, it doesn't bother me at all because I know what I'm comfortable with... just go find someone who isn't 'lame' to do your dances.
I'm curious, mr. p, do you agree with the idea that it's poor behaviour to continue to thrust your groin into or touch a girl who has repeatedly asked you not to?
xdamage
06-09-2007, 09:51 AM
You'd be surprised. More often than not, they keep doing it. I'd say on average only about 30% of customers stop when I ask them to.
It may depend on where you live and work. The notion that women have equal rights and that men should respect them is fairly well instilled in men in the USA and has been for several decades, although you can find pockets and areas where this is not stressed enough. I'm assuming Canada is also fairly modern in this regard. I really don't know about Australia, never been there, and I have no idea where the country is in general with notions that we take almost for granted in the USA. Of course there are always exceptions, and unfortunately plenty of haters (both ways sadly, man-haters and women-haters remain common), but I believe the majority in the USA in the past 4 decades grew up with (and hopefully learned) the idea that women are equal in our country, and their bodies and rights are protected and to be respected the same as men.
Katrine
06-09-2007, 11:10 AM
Bullshit X!!!!! You are WRONG!! Men in the US are no different then Australian men. When we ask them to stop, they just.......don't! Now it isn't all customers. But the ones who tend to touch, also tend not to listen.
And I don't think any of the ladies are talking about an occasional touch of the thigh or hair. Rather, the gropers and the sneakers. The sneakers being the type of men that Darcy pointed out above.
So face it X...you just don't know because your experience is your own. You do not spend day in and day out dealing with a variety of different men in a state of inebriation and sexual frustration. No, gay orgies don't count.
Just keep in mind, the ladies are debating a point about certain customers. And why is it so unfathomable that strippers don't have the best opinion of males? And believe you me, its certainly not the girls on this site that hate men more than any other dancer at the clubs you actually go to. We just aren't being paid to keep out mouth shut and smile for Punk.
Okay, actually I would probably laugh, shove you down (like, on the couch, not down the stairs) and say "What are you doing? You sit still - I move. Everyone knows guys are lazy - you're meant to like that."
Actually, my sweets, if you are going to shove me down (thank god a couch materialized above the stairs) I'd really rather you not laugh but instead frown and talk mean to me. You can still use those same words, of course, but please say them in a tone indicating you're kinda mad. You know. And if you wanted to add a smack on my cheek (not too hard though...I had a root canal recently and my jaw is still sore) I would be eternally grateful.
FBR
xdamage
06-09-2007, 02:37 PM
Men in the US are no different then Australian men. When we ask them to stop, they just.......don't! Now it isn't all customers. But the ones who tend to touch, also tend not to listen.
We were talking about percentages of customers that don't understand no, not absolutes. It's to be expected that some men don't understand "no" in the SC. Darcy did, saying maybe only 30% understand "no". You didn't provide any percentage figure.
You do not spend day in and day out dealing with a variety of different men in a state of inebriation and sexual frustration. .... And why is it so unfathomable that strippers don't have the best opinion of males?
My big problem with all of that is the same as I've written a few hundred times before, and will keep on writing, and exactly why I wrote that Jenny should find new work. There are thousands of other lines of work out there that do not involve grinding on men's dicks while they are drunk. Jobs where women have to compete with men or work alongside them to accomplish common goals. Jobs where men won't try to grind on women.
Strippers are adults who are responsible for their choices in this country. I'm going to keep on treating them like adults and hold them responsible for the outcome of their choices. Responsibility goes hand in hand with equality. If the strippers end up with a twisted world view, i.e., "...that strippers don't have the best opinion of males..." this is their responsibility, not the rest of the worlds, for choosing to immerse themselves in the situation they have chosen. If they choose to put themselves in a twisted unnatural environment, one that encourages drunkness, one where they have to act unnatural, one where they spend the day saying SS, and it ends up actually causing them to dislike 1/2 of the world's population, the rest of the world has the right to tell them they have a twisted view of reality.
Same with customers. If a guy spent 40 hours a week paying for someone to grind him, and walked away with a twisted view, such as thinking all women are strippers and whores because most of the women he spends the most time with in his life sell sex, are drunk, talk SS all day, etc., because he chooses to immerse himself in an unnatural environment, I'd tell him the same exact thing. GET OUT OF THE STRIPCLUB.
It's not at all unfathomable that "strippers don't have the best opinion of males?" What is unfathomable is that women want equality, they want to be adults, but some don't want to take responsibility for their choices. No one made any woman work in a SC. That's the woman's choice to work in the clubs vs working somewhere else. If they can't handle it, if it feeds into or causes them to develop a dislike for 1/2 of the world's population, it's their responsibility to do something about the impact it's having on their mental health, not the rest of the world's to agree with them.
Jenny like many girls here do have options in the US and Canadian cultures. She chooses to work in the SC. That's fine, but having a poor opinion of men as a result is also her responsibility, not our responsibility. If she is smart, healthy, attractive, there is no excuse why she can't do something else. Our cultures aren't stopping women from entering other fields, 99.9% of which men aren't drunk, and no grinding or touching is the norm, and SS will not be required or appreciated. It's not my problem that other jobs don't pay as much, but if an adult chooses to work in a SC, the rest of the world is not required to tell them everything they think is okay.
p.s. I wanted to add that history is filled with billions of dead people, as well as many alive today who hate other groups of people who have, no choice of their own, been born with different genes and who are a different from them in various ways. We call these sexists and racists, and I'm sure everyone of these people was absolutely clear in their own mind that their reason for hating whole groups of people who are different them then was/is justified. Fortunately we live in a time when some people are realizing that racism and sexism are based on ignorance, but it continues to happen because people have the same nature as their predecessors. Still, we don't all have to approve of it or even fear telling these people that they are ignorant. We don't need to hear their reasons which I am sure make complete sense to them. It's enough to tell them they are being ignorant, and it's their problem. It's also okay to point out that they can add themselves to a long list of billions of racists and sexists who have since died, and have contributed to a never ending problem. In other words, being a stripper is not an excuse for being a sexist.