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doc-catfish
05-28-2007, 09:03 AM
I really wish you people would stop trying to argue "fairness" here. It's really not about fairness or caring about all the individuals. It's about business.
You're right. I've never advocated "fairness" here. I've advocated that the free market be allowed to do its handiwork in separating the wheat from the chaff. The thing is that what makes a dancer qualified is a matter of subjective opinion. One man's chaff can be another man's wheat. If you're a clubowner, you'd be a smart businessman to staff the club proportionately to what your customer's desires are.

As I've stated already once here, an abundance of undesirable product isn't what is running me out of a SC with most of my tiproll intact. Its a lack of desirable product that is available. (Note: A dancer who is under fucko arrest for the entire duration of my trip is NOT available). Once I have a desired lady and we've gone off to lap central, you can put the three breasted triplets of Chernobyl on the stage and I wouldn't give a damn.



As for the question of the girls who "might have" made great dancers were they not discouraged by an expensive license. My answer to that is, if they can't figure out how to get the money, or if they aren't confident enough to try, then they won't be very good strippers. We don't need them.
Oh c'mon. You cannot honestly tell me that the first day you strapped on a pair of stilettos that you knew the full extent of your market potential as a dancer. The confidence most good dancers I know have only came with experience. Many of them would perhaps need to undergo that before they knew that the license would be a worthwhile investment.

miabella
05-28-2007, 04:52 PM
bridgette, does atlanta have semi-legal byob bikini bars, or dancehalls/bars that are thai-style (buy a drink, get some time with the girl?) and what's the number of massage parlours and executive release places in atlanta?

houston has a huge amount of greymarket and black market sex business going on in which the strip clubs are just the foam bubbling at the surface, which is one of the reasons the stripclubs are so socially approved that mixed-sex office parties will go to them.

as for atlanta, it is utterly intriguing to find that everyone pays a high entry fee-- except those places who pay the fee for the girls. why do there exist clubs who will pay the licence fee for girls and continue to operate when the penalties are so high? the mere existence of such clubs belies the totality of the atlanta model as being foolproof. there are still extras clubs, and they still get business and they are not in fact non-existent (which would be the case if the model were truly effective, and apparently it is not entirely so). which means you are being slightly misleading about the benefits of the atlanta model.

curiously, in australia, by legalising prostitution, there is an ability to enforce strict penalties on clubs with extras going on such that they are often shut down as soon as extras are discovered. apparently not the case in the lauded atlanta scenario, despite all the money lining city coffers. which is really really fascinating, honestly.

and doc has some valid points himself, from a customer pov.

mr_punk
05-28-2007, 05:31 PM
bridgette, does atlanta have semi-legal byob bikini bars, or dancehalls/bars that are thai-style (buy a drink, get some time with the girl?) and what's the number of massage parlours and executive release places in atlanta?i was just about to make that point. sc aren't the only factor at play in Houston which makes it difficult to compare it to Atlanta. IMO, as a general rule, the more action that a city offers outside of sc. the more likely there will be action in the sc.

currently, the city of Houston doesn't just want to eliminate sc. it's also going after the spas, modeling studios and MP (and girls working in these places are no strangers to working in sc or vice versa) and when add it to the mix. the number of SOB increases and if you want to add agencies or independents to that number? fuggetaboutit, just thinking about the amount of options available to a customer is making me dehydrated as i type.

the vice department in every city has to stay on top of all these businesses (both legal and illegal) and their manpower isn't limited to sc. i think the difference between ATL and Houston is something along the lines of what Bridgette mentioned earlier. over all, Atlanta has been good at regulating vice in general. BTW, they haven't eliminated vice (ie: the growth of internet prostitution in ATL). they just controlled some aspects of it. it's still there for those who want to find it.

however, Atlanta simply doesn't compare to the sheer size and scope of the sex industry in Houston or other cities like it. thus, ATL vice probably has an easier time keeping on top of things and ATL sc have the luxury of not competing with a number of spas, modeling studios and MP for customer dollars.

mr_punk
05-28-2007, 05:53 PM
Well, if men had started the same vigorous business discussion, I hardly think you'd characterize it as "sh#t" and "drama," but regardless.uhhh yeah ...patriarchy. seriously, all i'm saying is this seems to be mostly an issue between you ladies and management. customers can't impose your idea of a standard on your business like capping the number of girls, eliminating ladies deemed not fit for the business, etc. OTOH, management can impose such standards. the question is can you ladies get them implement such a standard when their currect standard might (or might not) be working well for them.

Truth is, we're doing it precisely because it bothers you. Similar, I'm speculating, to the motivation that spurs your ex's in some of their behavior.uhhh yeah....psycho biatches.

Jenny
05-28-2007, 11:05 PM
Bridgette - I have no idea how you determine that my anecdotal experience is irrelevant and immature and your's is material or how my personal perspective is immature and your's is not. And honestly - it doesn't matter if it is actually me or some other girl with my experience.

Fairness - I find it really ironic that you are claiming "fairness" is not an issue when your entire argument is premised on the idea that it is not fair for you to be working in an environment you see as polluted by other dancers. I mean, if fairness isn't at issue, what the hell is wrong with the status quo? I'm also a little confused by this "fairness has no place" thing. Where does that... come from? I mean, equality of opportunity is sort of fundamental premise of the free market, isn't it? Like, both you and I get to throw our metaphorical hats into the ring, and with as little interference as possible, let the consumers sort it out. If they really, truly and honestly value what you provide over what I provide, then you will have a line up and I will either have nothing, or only that business that you cannot handle. Generally, we don't want consumers to be stuck with you if they may want something else more, nor do we want them to have to not consume because you can't meet the demand. There are all sorts of "fairness" restrictions on business to protect these basic premises. The changes you want to make are not there for the consumer - they are there for you.

Qualifications. I think it is a little cute how you just keep asserting that you are qualified and other people are not, when the nature and degree of "qualification" is exactly what is at issue. I don't think that being pretty or not adequately pretty is a adequate criterion for a qualification. That is precisely what is in issue. Just asserting that you are qualified and other girls aren't, isn't an argument. It's an assertion. Further - because you may be "more" qualified than some other girls (that is, you may regularly perform better) doesn't mean that they are "unqualified" (that is, that they do not perform).

lunchbox
05-29-2007, 12:19 AM
go. for the moment, the coast is clear due to a court stay (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4837795.html), but who knows how long the liars..er...lawyers can drag it out. in the meantime, grab a friendly dancer and whip it out.
I went, and you know I don't whip it out.

I was told to be on the look out for better news later in the week, so we'll see.

Katrine
05-29-2007, 10:20 AM
Jenny, are you disagreeing with Bridgette simply for argument's sake? Its not like the clubs will have a shortage of unattractive and over-the-hill dancers. Those hags started out as decent, sprightly young things, and management doesn't have the balls to let them go.

So what's wrong with holding physical requirements for FRESH BLOOD coming in?

liberator
05-29-2007, 11:08 AM
Atlanta doesn't need BYOB Clubs as the law allows total nudity and alcohol sales. There are numerous Massage Spas and Lingerie Modeling Studios in Atlanta. Bill Hagood who owns the Cheetah was instrumental in cleaning up the clubs in the late 70's and early 80's as he feared a state crackdown. This was prior to the Gold Club.

Jenny
05-29-2007, 11:27 AM
Jenny, are you disagreeing with Bridgette simply for argument's sake? Its not like the clubs will have a shortage of unattractive and over-the-hill dancers. Those hags started out as decent, sprightly young things, and management doesn't have the balls to let them go.

So what's wrong with holding physical requirements for FRESH BLOOD coming in?
No. I know this might seem weird to some people, but I actually just disagree with Bridgette.

One of the things I asked (which wasn't really answered) was what Bridgette intended to do with 20% of dancers she intended to cull - that is whether these standards would apply to existing dancers or only new ones, and if it applied to existing dancers what would be done with them.

Finally, I think I've said a million times that one might be a successful dancer while not meeting Bridgette's requirements. Who establishes these requirements anyway, and who ensures that girls meet them? I mean, on the status quo managers already get to impose pretty much any standard they want. The problem that Bridgette is addressing is that they standards they impose are not the standards she wants imposed. They are too low for her. She is equally dissatisfied with the option of simply shopping around for a club with adequately high standards. So we are hypothesizing about a system in which there are some kind of external standards according to which clubs must abide. I'm pointing out certain administrative difficulties in establishing such a system, and exploring ways in which such a system may exclude girls who may be able to be successful dancers while including girls who may not be as successful.

Finally - the Municipality Act is the law in Ontario that governs (among other things) the ability of municipalities to grant licenses. I have no doubt that in other places it is not called the municipality act and that the specific rules are different. However - I have doubts that there is no regulations governing how municipalities give out licenses. Otherwise their authority to give out licenses would constantly be under scrutiny. Or so it seems to me.

Docido - I didn't bother answering you because I already pointed out the difference between occupational regulating bodies and municipal/state/provincial licensing. Dancers fall into the latter category.

evan_essence
05-29-2007, 03:39 PM
Fairness - I find it really ironic that you are claiming "fairness" is not an issue when your entire argument is premised on the idea that it is not fair for you to be working in an environment you see as polluted by other dancers. I mean, if fairness isn't at issue, what the hell is wrong with the status quo?Aha. Your question just caused me an ephiphany. (Do it again, harder!) The status quo is flawed because the dancers who are paying to work are getting less and less value from the amount of money they pay. The business model in play here has more similarities to franchising than hiring employees. Unfortunately, in our case, the "franchise fee" (house fee) we're paying either stays the same or goes up, while the club oversells "franchises," thus reducing the value of each franchise more than ever before. This is what's out of whack. The clubs are charging us the same or more, yet the opportunities to make money are shrinking. If it worked the way business normally works, charging higher house fees would accompany a limit on the number of competitors to increase the value of the contract, or else the club would find a proportionate way to increase the opportunity to make money. Like I said before, some clubs are acting like Make-Money-Fast scams in the way they're accepting new dancers. Bridgette's proposals, however flawed you may feel they are, are at least conceptually trying to address that issue in a way that bolsters the potential value of the house fee, house cuts and tipouts. Obviously, it would be far better if management simply behaved like a real business. (And kudos to those who do.) But at least I've addressed the fairness aspect. In my view, if you're going to apply that standard, the issue of fairness must also apply to the value that each dancer gets in exchange for paying the club to work.

-Ev

evan_essence
05-29-2007, 03:54 PM
seriously, all i'm saying is this seems to be mostly an issue between you ladies and management. customers can't impose your idea of a standard on your business like capping the number of girls, eliminating ladies deemed not fit for the business, etc. OTOH, management can impose such standards. the question is can you ladies get them implement such a standard when their currect standard might (or might not) be working well for them.God, it's so pleasant when you respond civilly. That was concise and to the point. Try not to make it a habit.

I mean, yeah, you're right, and in effect, this is an obvious threadjack, if not a forumjack. I know, for customers. But it's like, have you ever had one of those late night conversations with a friend that developed spontaneously at a time you knew you should be going to bed but it's so fascinating that you don't end it? Because if you do stop, even if you intend to take it up again at a more convenient time, the flavor and intensity of it just won't be the same? Well, this is like that, so thank the mods for letting us carry on. It's one of the things we like about Blue.

OMG. You tricked me with your pleasant tone into being forthright and honest. Sh*t.

-Ev

Bridgette
05-29-2007, 06:17 PM
Hey, I'd be happy to let the market decide, if that actually worked. It's not working. Managers won't ever see fit to run clubs like real businesses, unless something is done to MAKE it moreso. I'm proposing an idea to head in that direction.

It seems no matter what I say about it, Jenny and mia will just disagree.

I don't care what happens to the remaining 20% (or whatever the % is) who leave the market due to expensive licensing, club-imposed hiring standards, whatever. I don't care. How many times do I have to say it? I don't care. I'm not proposing to do anything with them - they can do whatever anyone else does who gets eliminated from a market. Just cut down on the number of girls (preferably by eliminating the non-producers) in clubs. That's all I care about. Let them figure out what to do about making a living otherwise - like you say, others have to do it without stripping. It is not anyone's responsibility but theirs, and if they can't make it in a stripclub environment that's actually run like a business, it's not anyone's problem but theirs.


Doc, part of the reason there's a lack of desirable dancers is that they don't stick around and/or aren't attracted to it because the industry overall sucks. If they're in any way smart and inclined to do anything else, that's what they do. The industry overall sucks in part because mgmt let too damn many marginal (or just downright nasty) girls in.

As far as whether I knew my potential first time I stepped on stage, hell yeah I did. I KNEW as well as I knew my name this was my calling. Hell, I knew it before I stepped on stage. How many times have pinkies posted that if a girl can't even get up the nerve to audition for months, for example, she shouldn't be a stripper? The reason is because if she has to spend that much time talking herself into it, she clearly doesn't have what it takes. I have never seen or heard of a girl who lacked confidence to even try becoming a good stripper - they may improve over time but they are always mediocre at best.

Likewise, if a girl doesn't have the gumption to come up with the money, and the confidence in herself to invest it, clearly she doesn't have the basic traits required to be successful in this business. This may sound harsh but it's oh so true. If a girl doesn't have these most basic traits in the beginning, she will be destined for frustration and crap money, maybe mediocrity at best, as a stripper.

>Added: Think about it. Girl A thinks "I'd love to be a stripper, but the license is too expensive! I don't have that much money." Girl B thinks "I wanna be a stripper. I don't have $300 for the license but I'm gonna get it!" Girl B will make a great stripper - Girl A (if the club offers to pay the license for her) will be the one who approaches maybe 1 guy, gets turned down, gets discouraged then runs to sit in the dressing room sulking and bitching, and only makes money on a fluke.

dayzed
05-29-2007, 06:18 PM
Enjoyable debate :argue:, but my inner junkie shudders at each mention of Hotlanta as some kind of model for the SC industry. Atlanta clubs = :bored: :bored: :bored: :zzz:

SportsWriter2
05-29-2007, 06:18 PM
One of the things I asked (which wasn't really answered) was what Bridgette intended to do with 20% of dancers she intended to cull - that is whether these standards would apply to existing dancers or only new ones, and if it applied to existing dancers what would be done with them.
I have an uneasy feeling that most of my favorites would be culled. :-\

Bridgette
05-29-2007, 09:18 PM
I've also got to ask Jenny. You said in an earlier post that you thought there should be a "better" way to cull out some of the excess girls, and performance was one of your suggestions. I'm suggesting an expensive license will do that for us (alot of it anyway) without discriminating based on looks. It's obviously not a perfect solution - nothing short of proper management (which we aren't gonna get) would be perfect. But something needs to happen. This is the only thing I can think of that might work, given all the surrounding circumstances.

I would like to know, since you're so vehemently against an expensive license (or basically anything I've said here), what you would suggest should be done to lose some excess girls? I know you agree there are too many. I know you'd like it if there were fewer, giving us better earnings opportunities. I can't believe you'd really expect the industry to continue making less and less, just so those chics can keep being poor strippers. What is YOUR suggestion?

Jenny
05-29-2007, 10:19 PM
Hey, I'd be happy to let the market decide, if that actually worked. It's not working. Managers won't ever see fit to run clubs like real businesses, unless something is done to MAKE it moreso. I'm proposing an idea to head in that direction.
Okay, you're saying that it's "not working" - again, what you mean is that it's not working in a way that you want it to.


It seems no matter what I say about it, Jenny and mia will just disagree.
I've agreed with some of your ideas - for example eliminating girls based on production rather than appearance. I just think there are administrative problems with the execution. (Even a hypothetical execution). But even then, like if there weren't - how do we determine what is adequate production? I mean, these things are regionally specific for one thing. Plus - I really think you might find fewer customer coming in if all the girls were like me rather than one of my charming but gormless colleagues who hangs out with guys, in exchange for drinks. If she makes money - great. If not... whatever. I hate it, but customers love her. Where do girls like that - who likely increase business and goodwill for the bar but not for dancers - fit in?


I don't care what happens to the remaining 20% (or whatever the % is) who leave the market due to expensive licensing, club-imposed hiring standards, whatever. I don't care. How many times do I have to say it? I don't care. I'm not proposing to do anything with them - they can do whatever anyone else does who gets eliminated from a market.
Okay. You've said it many times. And I've responded with an "but I DO care. I want to know. I obviously view regulating people out of work as a problem. I do not view it as a problem when the market eliminates them because then they are not being regulated out of the industry. In this case the market is not eliminating them. That's why you want regulations. It's a problem you would have to deal with in any other field that imposes arbitrary regulations and you have to deal with it here too.

Anyway, for the sake of solidarity I will share. In our club the fee per hour is EXTREMELY reasonable. Like VERY reasonable. It's fine by me, but it is not, by any stretch, expensive. I will still negotiate down by $50 if I'm doing a duo with another chick. Today I find out that a girl who is VERY pretty, VERY personable, has everything it takes is doing hours at (no I'm not exaggerating) 1/3 of the normal rate. What the fuck? (Okay, the normal rate is $300. VERY reasonable; and that is the total that the customer pays, the club takes nothing. So she is doing hours for $100.) Now I'm trying not to be mad at her because I like her, and because I assume that she has missed something fundamental in the whole "$300 per hour" thing. Seriously - I like this girl and all, but it ticks me off because I am thinking "How could you be so stupid?" and really, I remember this whole debate and I'm like - you know, fuck, I could really live without girls like this. I have no point. I'm just doing a "I feel your pain" thing.


if they can't make it in a stripclub environment that's actually run like a business, it's not anyone's problem but theirs.
Okay - I agree. (see?)
But. The problem is NOT that they can't make it, but that you don't think they are making enough or that you don't think that they are "qualified". See - there's the problem. You make these broad assertions, but they are very hard to nail down. The broad assertions - the industry is glutted with unprofessional twits and wouldn't it be great if we could just NOT HAVE THEM - I don't have a problem with. It's the nailing down that is the problem.


As far as whether I knew my potential first time I stepped on stage, hell yeah I did. I KNEW as well as I knew my name this was my calling.
Good point. I don't know that I would have said it was my calling, but I've always been a little mystified by girls who need to drink or smoke before starting. The first time I set foot on stage I looked like a dork (hey - I'll cop to it. I'm not a gifted dancer) but I was like "I'm nervous, but this is what I'm here for so I'm making it work".

Jenny
05-29-2007, 10:31 PM
I've also got to ask Jenny. You said in an earlier post that you thought there should be a "better" way to cull out some of the excess girls, and performance was one of your suggestions. I'm suggesting an expensive license will do that for us (alot of it anyway) without discriminating based on looks. It's obviously not a perfect solution - nothing short of proper management (which we aren't gonna get) would be perfect. But something needs to happen. This is the only thing I can think of that might work, given all the surrounding circumstances.

I would like to know, since you're so vehemently against an expensive license (or basically anything I've said here), what you would suggest should be done to lose some excess girls? I know you agree there are too many. I know you'd like it if there were fewer, giving us better earnings opportunities. I can't believe you'd really expect the industry to continue making less and less, just so those chics can keep being poor strippers. What is YOUR suggestion?
The problem is that I think it is a) ineffective (again, in Toronto you pay about $400 to become a stripper and we still get moronic bottom feeders - like how much do you want to pay in a year?) and b) illegal. So if we wanted to pursue this idea of licensing we would need a regulatory board, and probably the only way to justify founding it would be for health, safety and public order. Now, just to pre-warn you - bringing "health and safety" into stripclubs as live issues is... a problem. It opens a lot of doors to the kind of regulation we DON'T want for purposes that aren't real problems. So now we have a regulatory board that presumably gives out licenses each year, with (presumably) a rebuttable preference for existing members. Okay, know what, I'm going to stop, because this is just going to lead to more "and then what if".
In a nutshell, I'm not sure the industry can be "saved". I've been dancing as long as you have Bridgette, and honestly I think a lot of older dancers have a skewed memory of the 90s. This industry is seedy, and was seedy in the 70s and is seedy now. I'm not sure that trying to artificially create a scarcity (comparative scarcity) of dancers is going to change that, and it would be very difficult to justify, like, in a legal sense.

Slave of Sensation
05-29-2007, 11:03 PM
They tried this about 8 or 9 years ago when I worked in houston. the city officals made the new ordanice but this means you can't build a new strip club within these lines but older ones are granfathered and all sorts of other things come up so as soon as a few strip clubs have their lawyers look into it and decide that they only have to move if the city foots the bill and the city doesn't want to fork over the millions to move all these clubs. At least thats the way it went last time they tried to bring this up. The truth is houston has some really fun strip clubs so I hope thet get to stay open:P

aggieed
05-30-2007, 01:04 AM
for the moment, the coast is clear due to a court stay (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4837795.html), but who knows how long the liars..er...lawyers can drag it out.

Yeah, that actually is making me think about making a quick trip sometime in the next month or so just for the sake of doing so. Hell, Southwest has $29 flights from Austin to Houston. With fees and such, the cost would be about the same as the tank of gas I would have to use driving over and back. Of course, the cost of getting from Hobby to Treasures would make driving less expensive...but it may be worth a shot...fly in at noon, leave at night. Then again I would smell like a strip club on the flight back, wouldn't I?


I went...

And...business as usual or ghost town? I've been to Treasures twice this year post-raids, once in late February and once in late March. I had a good time on both trips, but the diversity of talent (number of girls) just wasn't there. One afternoon I walked in and there was only one dancer walking around...took another 90 minutes before the second dancer came out of the dressing room...pathetic and practially unthinkable for a place like Treasures. Reminded me of the reason why I stopped going to Gold Cup where suddenly you were lucky if 3 or 4 girls were working any given afternoon. I can't imagine what it would have been like these last few weeks with all the uncertainty, and I'm sure, bullshit and rumors going around.

Twin Tattoo
05-30-2007, 10:30 AM
Now I can't get rid of the picture of my fat ass in a thong swim suit walking along the beach...

:spit: AHHH!!!!! :ill: Make the mental image go away! Away! AHHH!!!!

Katrine
05-30-2007, 10:50 AM
Yeah, that actually is making me think about making a quick trip sometime in the next month or so just for the sake of doing so. Hell, Southwest has $29 flights from Austin to Houston. With fees and such, the cost would be about the same as the tank of gas I would have to use driving over and back. Of course, the cost of getting from Hobby to Treasures would make driving less expensive...but it may be worth a shot...fly in at noon, leave at night. Then again I would smell like a strip club on the flight back, wouldn't I?


It takes a good 30 minutes to get from Hobby to Treasures. And that's without traffic. If you take 71 to I-10, to the Beltway, exit Westheimer, you'll be pulling into Treasures in 2.5 hours. It would easily take that long dealing with airport security, takeoff, landing, etc....plus the cost of the ticket.

But then again I'm from Houston, know the shortcuts, and always have a place to stay. Have a great trip!

Sex Worker Advocate
05-30-2007, 10:58 AM
Hi:
Has anybody danced in Houston? There's a horrible law in Houston that requires dancers to be at least three feet away from customers when certain body parts are exposed. I read that some dancers have actually been arrested under this law. This seems like nothing more than an excuse for law enforcement to arrest or fine dancers if they're unable to "get them" on anything else. If I may be so bold has to ask, has anybody here ever been arrested or fined under this three foot law? If so, you may be able to file a legal complaint because this law violates the first amendment right to freedom of assembaly. Please feel welcome to send me a private message if you'd prefer not to post on this board.

doc-catfish
05-30-2007, 12:08 PM
If so, you may be able to file a legal complaint because this law violates the first amendment right to freedom of assembaly. Please feel welcome to send me a private message if you'd prefer not to post on this board.
Oh terrific, another armchair libertarian. ::)

Dude (or ma'am), I'm not sure how much you've been keeping up with the legal matters regarding SC's, but over the past fifteen years or so, most SCOTUS and CCOA rulings on such matters have been decided in the favor of the authorities in spite of the pretty 1st Amendment platitudes you're spouting here. Do some research on Erie V. PAPS or Gammoh V. LaHabra.

And for the record, Houston is not the only city in the country with a minimum distance rule in place. There are also notable distance laws in effect in Seattle, Tampa, and Nashville, not to mention many other locales. In many respects they are sporadically enforced at best.

lunchbox
05-30-2007, 12:32 PM
Then again I would smell like a strip club on the flight back, wouldn't I?
Post smoking ban?

And...business as usual or ghost town?
It was fairly busy. There wasn't a ton of girls like there used to be, and drop the average looks by a point on a scale of 1 to 10, but still plenty of talent when I was there.

The most interesting part of my night was a new couchroom at Penthouse, no more booth bullshit.

doc-catfish
05-30-2007, 01:09 PM
Managers won't ever see fit to run clubs like real businesses, unless something is done to MAKE it moreso. I'm proposing an idea to head in that direction.
You've been dancing or what, twelve years now? Has it perhaps dawned on you even once that most SC management/owners run their operations in the shortsighted racket ass way they do is because...well....they're racketeers.

They didn't start these clubs up for the same reason the guy running the local hardware store runs his business. They're attracted to it because its a cash business that allows them to wash money from their, ahem, "other businesses". They're also attracted to it due to the fact that its so ostracized by the public that most legit business owners don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole.


Doc, part of the reason there's a lack of desirable dancers is that they don't stick around and/or aren't attracted to it because the industry overall sucks. If they're in any way smart and inclined to do anything else, that's what they do. The industry overall sucks in part because mgmt let too damn many marginal (or just downright nasty) girls in.
Well, doing something else is free market enterprise. A lot of our desirable girls around here have quit/left for greener pastures as well, but an inflow of uglier dancers hasn't had anything to do with it. Its been an absence of money.


How many times have pinkies posted that if a girl can't even get up the nerve to audition for months, for example, she shouldn't be a stripper?
Not nearly as many times as I've heard things like "I really didn't get going as a dancer until about [insert amount of time or moment of epiphany here]. But besides, when were pinkies a good representation of the stripping business. A great portion of the girls upstairs are retirees, some of whom bowed out because by their own admission...they couldn't handle it.


I have never seen or heard of a girl who lacked confidence to even try becoming a good stripper - they may improve over time but they are always mediocre at best.

Likewise, if a girl doesn't have the gumption to come up with the money, and the confidence in herself to invest it, clearly she doesn't have the basic traits required to be successful in this business. This may sound harsh but it's oh so true. If a girl doesn't have these most basic traits in the beginning, she will be destined for frustration and crap money, maybe mediocrity at best, as a stripper.
Well, I tell you what. I'm meeting just such a gal Saturday night. She's a veteran dancer too, about your age. I think I'm going to print this little quip of yours out (without revealing it's source), hand it to her, and see what she thinks. If she's in agreement with you, I'll come back here and bow down to your omnipotence. If she thinks its BS I'll allow her to take her frustrations out on the paper its printed on. How's that sound?


Think about it. Girl A thinks "I'd love to be a stripper, but the license is too expensive! I don't have that much money." Girl B thinks "I wanna be a stripper. I don't have $300 for the license but I'm gonna get it!" Girl B will make a great stripper - Girl A (if the club offers to pay the license for her) will be the one who approaches maybe 1 guy, gets turned down, gets discouraged then runs to sit in the dressing room sulking and bitching, and only makes money on a fluke.
The thing is most dancers who get into this business are more like Girl C, "I not sure whether I'd enjoy dancing or not, but my rent/car payment/tuition is due, or my newborn needs to eat, or my debt is getting out of control, so I'm gonna try it out." She somehow scraps the money up (or has the club pay for it initially if they will) and gets the expensive license because she really doesn't have much other choice.

After that, results may vary on a number of factors, confidence only being one.

Bridgette
05-30-2007, 02:27 PM
You've been dancing or what, twelve years now? Has it perhaps dawned on you even once that most SC management/owners run their operations in the shortsighted racket ass way they do is because...well....they're racketeers.

They didn't start these clubs up for the same reason the guy running the local hardware store runs his business. They're attracted to it because its a cash business that allows them to wash money from their, ahem, "other businesses". They're also attracted to it due to the fact that its so ostracized by the public that most legit business owners don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. LOL - do ya think this is news to me? I know this. This is why I know they'll never run the clubs like real businesses, for the most part.



Well, doing something else is free market enterprise. A lot of our desirable girls around here have quit/left for greener pastures as well, but an inflow of uglier dancers hasn't had anything to do with it. Its been an absence of money.Absence of money due to what? Among other things, ugly chics running off customers. ;D



Not nearly as many times as I've heard things like "I really didn't get going as a dancer until about [insert amount of time or moment of epiphany here]. But besides, when were pinkies a good representation of the stripping business. A great portion of the girls upstairs are retirees, some of whom bowed out because by their own admission...they couldn't handle it.Where did I mention pinkies as representing the whole lot of strippers? But, while we may not represent the average as far as earnings and such, we do represent average concerning many typical attitudes strippers hold.

1) Couldn't handle it --- ANYMORE. Everyone wears out on something eventually; doesn't mean they weren't good at their jobs preceding that. Hell, I might even venture to say that people who are really good at this type of job will tend to burnout faster and more often than those who aren't so good at it. Seems quite common to me, from what I've seen of working with the girls.

2) I myself have said many times that I didn't really hit my stride until 5 years or so - I was a good stripper and one of the top earners most everywhere I went within my first year though. If a girl is EVER gonna be truly GOOD at this job, she won't be one of those who pussyfoots around for months or years, or who can't front some money to get started. Girls who *may* do pretty well at one or two clubs in one, maybe two cities after eventually getting the nerve to go for it don't count - because they are only "good" in one extremely limited environment where circumstances are ideal for them or they have finally learned to cope in that limited capacity. No. GOOD strippers *could* get hired and make money almost anywhere they choose.



Well, I tell you what. I'm meeting just such a gal Saturday night. She's a veteran dancer too, about your age. I think I'm going to print this little quip of yours out (without revealing it's source), hand it to her, and see what she thinks. If she's in agreement with you, I'll come back here and bow down to your omnipotence. If she thinks its BS I'll allow her to take her frustrations out on the paper its printed on. How's that sound? Make sure you explain the context, and don't (consciously or subconsciously) project your own opinions about it when you present it to her.

But let's keep in mind that the laws of SS stipulate that any stripper will be inclined to say whatever she thinks the *paying regular customer* wants to hear. So I won't put much stock in her response either way. How about that?

To be really frank though, I don't put too much stock in the opinions of girls who haven't travelled a fair amount, no matter how long they've danced. Because their experience is highly limited. It's very common that girls who do well in one environment don't make crap in another because their skills and knowledge are only valuable in a limited capacity; likewise, so are their opinions.



The thing is most dancers who get into this business are more like Girl C, "I not sure whether I'd enjoy dancing or not, but my rent/car payment/tuition is due, or my newborn needs to eat, or my debt is getting out of control, so I'm gonna try it out." She somehow scraps the money up (or has the club pay for it initially if they will) and gets the expensive license because she really doesn't have much other choice.

After that, results may vary on a number of factors, confidence only being one.You're missing the point. There is no Girl C in what I'm saying. The reason for wanting to be a stripper is NOT relevant to what I'm saying. The point is that, either they have the confidence and gumption to make it happen, or they don't.



Jenny - so what you're saying is, basically, you have no ideas or suggestions. You just don't like mine. That's fine. I like mine - at least it's an attempt, which is better than doing nothing.

lunchbox
05-31-2007, 06:36 AM
Jenny - so what you're saying is, basically, you have no ideas or suggestions. You just don't like mine. That's fine. I like mine - at least it's an attempt, which is better than doing nothing.
It's not the job of a cynic to push their own idea's, they just attack everyone else's. Then when you think we're taking a counterpoint, we get to harass you for trying to assign us a position we never took (or putting words in our mouth).

I caught a lot of flack for doing this a couple of months back. Specifically that thread about rape.

Jenny
05-31-2007, 06:41 AM
Well, Bridgette, if you see pointing out ways in which your ideas will have consequences and are potentially illegal as "attacking", yeah, I GUESS so. And minus effective management or a little more savvy on our (dancers) parts - no, I'm not sure there is a viable solution. But yes, I do also have this weird idea that a change should be a) legal, b) viable and c) better than the status quo before it should be considered. If it is not those things I don't think it constitutes a real idea, any more than my suggestion on the pink side that we just barbecue and eat the extras girls.

xdamage
05-31-2007, 10:35 AM
In a nutshell, I'm not sure the industry can be "saved".

I'm quite sure I've said the same multiple times in the past. I'm quite sure that the industry cannot be "saved" in the sense that it will never be what it was in the past. Things change, and the primary change is that the social stigma and taboo associated with being a stripper is slowly but surely lifting. Likewise customer expectations of contact is just going to keep going up. These two changes are interdependent and self-reinforcing.

It can still be a good business if you decide to be a club owner, and a few dancers will still manage to make good bucks, but it's to be expected that the clubs will continue to fill with more girls looking to make better then minimum wage doing a job that requires little in the way of education, experience or even skills.

OTOH, it's human nature, as dancers it makes sense that you should still want to try and improve the business. It's normal and healthy to want a better deal, but long term I'd gamble that it's a losing cause. Unless you can all organize (which will probably never happen as long as you are all independent contractors) and push the club owners or invest in your own clubs, it seems to me that the trend will continue. Less stigma/taboo = more dancers entering the business. Customers will continue to become numb with the current level of sexuality and expect more, and newer/younger dancers will grow up in a that environment and their expectations about what is extras will be shaped accordingly.

Twin Tattoo
05-31-2007, 10:56 AM
They tried this about 8 or 9 years ago when I worked in houston. the city officals made the new ordanice but this means you can't build a new strip club within these lines but older ones are granfathered and all sorts of other things come up so as soon as a few strip clubs have their lawyers look into it and decide that they only have to move if the city foots the bill and the city doesn't want to fork over the millions to move all these clubs. At least thats the way it went last time they tried to bring this up. The truth is houston has some really fun strip clubs so I hope thet get to stay open:P

How close is the parallel between that previous attempt to shut down clubs and the current one?

Twin Tattoo
05-31-2007, 11:00 AM
Bill Hagood who owns the Cheetah was instrumental in cleaning up the clubs in the late 70's and early 80's as he feared a state crackdown.

What did he do?


This was prior to the Gold Club.

Meaning??? /:O

xdamage
06-01-2007, 08:44 AM
...You've put on a few pounds and have a few wrinkles but still you make decent money. Sometimes you give a handjob or let guys finger your pussy, not because you're a slut, but because you need to pay your bills, or maybe you want piano lessons for your daughter, and you've got to offer something a little extra to compensate for your looks.
....it's going to hurt a lot of women who are teetering on the edge of poverty. Is that really what you want?...

Nobody wants to see anyone else starve of course. But all jobs have some requirements, and if this hypothetical woman can't meet those requirements why is her situation any different then the rest of the world who has to meet certain requirements to keep any other job? Plus of course if she has to engage in illegal activities to keep up it's an indication she is no longer capable.

I guess my thinking is the best we as a society can do is give them info, and then even then, some (many) are going to ignore and self destruct. In the case of this hypothetical woman all you can really do is warn her when she is in her 20s that the stripping gig won't last forever, that she is not immune to the inevitable ticking of her genes, she will age, and at some point (no different then an athlete) she won't be able to compete. If it's not 30s, then 40s. And then... some women are still going to end up in the position of having to compete in the job markets the rest of the world competes in without the benefit of a strong resume or experience. Maybe she can transfer her hustling skills to another career, maybe not. We simply can't save everyone from making the choices they are going to make. Nobody wants to see her starve, but they do want to see her plan for her own future, and not go on falsely believing she can strip forever.


As for how to weed out the women that shouldn't be in the clubs, as I've said in the past, strangely I think that the system of having the girls pay fees to the house does that. Those who aren't good enough to make their house fees will eventually drop out because it's costing them more to work then to keep on wasting floor space. That doesn't address Bridgette's concern that the available money is being split too many ways, or Jenny's that she and others should have a chance at some of that money too, but it does weed out those who are incapable of earning at least a minimum amount in the clubs. It also doesn't address the quality of experience overall, but I'm guessing that there is room in the market for high end clubs that do enforce the experience, as well as plenty of clubs that are focused more on variety, as well as girls that have that "girl next door" appeal which many guys are more comfortable with.

Katrine
06-01-2007, 10:14 AM
As for how to weed out the women that shouldn't be in the clubs, as I've said in the past, strangely I think that the system of having the girls pay fees to the house does that. Those who aren't good enough to make their house fees will eventually drop out because it's costing them more to work then to keep on wasting floor space.

.........except for those stupid hos who beg and plead w management to let them hold off on the housefees for whatever reason. More begging and management is a bunch of pusses. Then they get the money somehow, and they can stay.

Plus, its not only aging women who have put on the pounds or wrinkles. Plenty of older women compete JUST FINE with the younger. Its not that difficult for a manager with half a brain to be able to see potential in a young go-getter who is attractive enough but hasn't necessarily pulled off that "stripper look" yet. There are always also going to be low-end clubs too.

liberator
06-01-2007, 12:28 PM
What Hagood did was basically implore clubs to go to low contact and stop the champagne hustle. He did this in the late 70's and early 80's. The Gold Club started in the mid 80's and was closed due to legal problems. The ATL model has worked very well in Atlanta. Doesn't mean You can't have fun in VIP.

Katrine
06-01-2007, 04:16 PM
What Hagood did was basically implore clubs to go to low contact and stop the champagne hustle. He did this in the late 70's and early 80's. The Gold Club started in the mid 80's and was closed due to legal problems. The ATL model has worked very well in Atlanta. Doesn't mean You can't have fun in VIP.

Fine, but its not easily going to translate to Houston. Have you been to clubs in Texas? Houston? Its an entirely different ballgame. The ordinance fucked everything up even WORSE! When I was working in Houston the summer before the ordinance hit, in 1997, the dancers were gorgeous, and the clubs were designed with open layouts. There were some more private booths, but no dark VIP with its invisible corners. Sure, I would see some boobie groping on occasion. But for the most part, it was a fun party atmosphere. Guys could bring in their coworkers and their brother-in-law to watch the fight, eat, drink, and enjoy a few dances. Girls were regularly making $1,000 and more on a decent night.

Now, some of this went away due to the decline of the stripping industry due to external forces. But much of the Houston-specific decline was due to the ordinance. Within 2-3 years, private "VIP" areas were built in very dark rooms. Extras began to go unnoticed. No one cared any longer. If the cops were going to bust the club, literally ANYONE could be breaching the 3-foot rule. It became a joke, and the only ones who would face its consequence were the girls. Not the management, not the customers. Dancer quality began to decline, and the good strippers left the industry or moved away. Managers began to hire anyone who walked into the door willing to pay the fee, and then ignored the fact that many of these girls had NO hustle, and had to rely on high contact to earn. Customers began to get spoiled and nasty. Clubs were no longer a fun party, but a place to get your nob polished. The house of cards continues to topple.....

miabella
06-01-2007, 08:44 PM
this is part of what i was trying to communicate to bridgette at first in some of my posts about all this. she assumes somehow that raising cost of entry will simultaneously lead to houston holding the clubs responsible. and you have to have both things happen pretty much concurrently to benefit the dancers left able to work.

and even in atlanta there are extras as houstonians know them, and clubs offering same that haven't been shut down, despite the fact that the city is in many regards a highly favorable set of circumstances for low contact high money dancing to evolve in.

mr_punk
06-01-2007, 10:32 PM
Of course, the cost of getting from Hobby to Treasures would make driving less expensive...but it may be worth a shot...fly in at noon, leave at night. Then again I would smell like a strip club on the flight back, wouldn't I?nah, you can wash off the eau de skank by taking a whore's bath in the men's restroom at the airport before your flight back.

Customers began to get spoiled and nasty. Clubs were no longer a fun party, but a place to get your nob polished.LOL..yeah, ain't it cool? well, for me it is.

aggieed
06-02-2007, 08:05 AM
Definitely don't have to argue that driving would be faster than flying between Austin and Houston. I have a friend in Houston that has this silly rule that if it takes longer than two hours to drive to get somewhere, he'd rather fly. I've often explained to him that he'd be here much faster driving than flying. ::) Man loves his frequent flyer miles and will do anything to get them. I have to admit, I'm the same way as well with rapid rewards credits. My first thought when those $29 flights were announced was, "Hmm...$29 for one rapid reward credit, $58 for two..." Add to that one of the rental car partners including one that maybe has double or triple credit and bam, it's all good (I've been a member for less than two years and have earned four free round trips...all on leisure travel). And driving just isn't as much fun anymore. I've even stopped driving to Dallas; I'd much rather fly...just so much easier to let somebody else do the "work".


Post smoking ban?

Smoking ban? In Houston? That's fantastic...I think.


...and even in atlanta there are extras as houstonians know them, and clubs offering same that haven't been shut down, despite the fact that the city is in many regards a highly favorable set of circumstances for low contact high money dancing to evolve in.

I had a friend that used to live in Houston, and when he moved to Atlanta he said that Atlanta strips club were very much inline with what was available in Houston (this was around 2002-2003). Most other guys I've talked to say differently. I don't really worry about it much, though, since I only go to Atlanta for special sporting events or to see the Braves...I'll be down there at the end of July for the Astros-Braves series in fact. Baseball will pretty much be the only thing on my mind while I'm there...not strip clubs.

lunchbox
06-04-2007, 07:56 AM
Man loves his frequent flyer miles and will do anything to get them.
I knew a couple guys that were getting loads of extra segments by routing all their travel through Ellington field. Once they started charging extra for the puddle jumper, they had to quit. It is kind of funny to think about taking a flight across Houston.

(hearsay) high ranking Houston area hospital officials that are UT and A&M alums take life flight helicopters to go watch home games.


Smoking ban? In Houston? That's fantastic...I think.
still on for later this year AFAIK.

Docido
06-07-2007, 04:58 PM
Well, Bridgette, if you see pointing out ways in which your ideas will have consequences and are potentially illegal as "attacking", yeah, I GUESS so. And minus effective management or a little more savvy on our (dancers) parts - no, I'm not sure there is a viable solution. But yes, I do also have this weird idea that a change should be a) legal, b) viable and c) better than the status quo before it should be considered. If it is not those things I don't think it constitutes a real idea, any more than my suggestion on the pink side that we just barbecue and eat the extras girls.

Jenny, I understand the difference between professional regulatory boards and other sate agencies. Dancers in our state fall under a set of statutes similar to the ones that govern video lottery or alcohol. Actually, an exotic dancing board isn't such a bad idea. Like any other professional board they could issue licenses and devise examinations. (OK Trixie, let’s see your required five poll tricks. Have you done your required in-service by reading “Hustle Hut” at least three times this year?) Also, a state regulated professional board has less leeway when it comes to charging fees. The liquor board only has to publish its fee changes.

I know this is about as practical as barbequing the extras girls, since an exotic dancing board would imply excepting some aspect of the sex trade. Something so not going to happen in most of the US. Also, most dancers would probably resent government trying to stick its nose up their g-string. The old independent contractor thing. Finally, a board would probably have no effect on the proliferation of extras. I’m not sure that cat will ever be put back in the bag.

Houston seems like such an anomaly. Maybe Kat’s take is right. The 3 foot rule started the decline and repealing it (less regulation) would help slow the slide.

What we’ve barely touched on is the wider economic pressures effecting clubs and what goes on in the private booths. That’s for another time and thread.

Cyndi08
06-07-2007, 05:00 PM
^^ I wish they could retract that "extras behavior". Then, I would consider moving closer to my family and dancing in Houston.

It's not worth it to me, to deal with that drama.

Tina
06-08-2007, 05:40 PM
In reading this thread Miabella, Bridgette, Katrine, and Jenny all make viable points.

I worked in Houston in the 90's when the clubs were ultra picky, and when it was hard for a WOC to get in the door. What Katrine said about how the clubs were prior to the crackdown is absolutely true.

Miabella has hit a lot of nails on the head. Houston is a good ole' boys city that just happens to have more of a minority population at this point, than a white one. But, compared to Atlanta, Houston has a subsatntial hispanic popluation that exceeds the black numbers. Houston does not have the corporate job structure and employment base of Atlanta, therefore does not have as many upper level blacks, AND Houston is NOT a liberal city. There are A LOT of RED overtones controlling the landscape of Houston whether a Democrat is in office or not.

Atlanta is a liberal city in the midst of the ultra red sea of hell. The fact that the political figurs in Atlanta were willing to find a way to keep the clubs open in a manner that is profitable to owners and dancers, is something that most cities will not openly do. Texas politicians are unwilling to openly admit that strip clubs are not a problem, provide a lot of jobs, much desired recreation, and not a detriment to society. They have too much political backing from the religious right, so they pretend to hate the business, pass laws they know no club or dancer can stay in business observing, don't enforce them consistently, but know that at any time they can easily bust handfuls of girls making it look like they are tough on adult venues.

Bridgette makes a point of complaining about overfilling clubs with dancers, but with shrinking club revenues, increasing legal fees, and politicians who feel it will hurt their careers to openly declare that a war on strip clubs is a waste of time, what can be done? Trying to get these politicans to raise licensing fees is not justified now, or if it were it will bring a lot of scrutiny from the govt. on our industry. It will probably open a can of worms which will make our business worse.

As far as Jenny's speaking of less than polished girls making money and deserving a job, I think she is right. I also agree with Bridgette that ugly girls not belonging in the club. But, my solution after working in small clubs where some owners let less than attractive girls dance, is that most girls who are a 6 can be fixed up to be a 7.5 or 8.

Most girls not up to par can be brought up to par by wearing makeup when they don't, wearing dancer shoes when they don't, white girls to tan regularly, having their toes and fingernails done as well as their hair worn down a styled, and being required to wear nice color coordinated costumes and shoes at all times. If they are a little flabby, put them on a workout regimen, but realize that many customers now like thicker women, and older dancers.

As far as reducing the number of dancers, that is up to the clubs, and eventually if money stays hard to make for lots of girls, some will quit on their own.

We really need new club owners who care about the business, the customers, and the girls. Bridgette, and more like her could forfeit their remaining dancing careers by focusing on purchasing clubs and running them properly. That is the only hope in the long run for younger girls who may want to stay in this business.

We are dealing with conservative white club owners, whom if given a chance like Miabella said, will skew towards skinnier white blonde girls. If clubs get too strict, lots of girls who want to dance and and are good at it would be shut out. A viable solustion is for clubowners to require all dancers to be high maintenance.

There is not much difference in the METRO area populations of Houston and Atlanta. Houston has about 5 million people in the metro area and Atlanta about 4.7 million. Atlanta has 1.3 million blacks to Houstons 900,000, but Houston has about 1.5 million hispanics too. The black population in Atlanta is 60% middle to Upper Middle class and 10% of the blacks earn OVER $111,000 a year. Only 30% of Atlanta's black population earns less than $27,000 a year. Thus Atlantas ethnic population can much more afford to support it's own people.

Houston black income is nowhere near that of Atlanta.

Houston has more clubs than Atlanta, and not as much of a spendy customer base to keep them all going. Therefore only about 20% of the clubs in Houston take in 70% of the business.

As far as Houston guys not wanting sex after they have become accustomed to it, that could not happen large scale. What you need is a club that runs as a combination of Arizona clubs with table dances of medium contact, and Montana, where stage shows, tipping, and tip rails are the main draw. That may get some of the die hard customers to the clubs occasionally as long as they have liquor licenses, but some guys would be lost for good.

Casual Observer
06-09-2007, 05:54 AM
Clubs were no longer a fun party, but a place to get your nob polished. The house of cards continues to topple.....

I think that's one of the things I miss the most--the fun-girl party atmosphere. Now it's so brazenly and crudely transactional, I feel like I get more playful banter at the friggin' dentist.

Katrine
06-09-2007, 11:19 AM
I think that's one of the things I miss the most--the fun-girl party atmosphere. Now it's so brazenly and crudely transactional, I feel like I get more playful banter at the friggin' dentist.

Exactly! 10 years ago, a couple of business partners would walk into a Houston club. A smiling waitress would greet them and take them to their favorite table. If the waitress knew them, she would immediately bring over a round of their favorite drinks, and summon up their favorite girls. Once the girls arrived, the waitress would follow with a round of the ladies's fave drinks. The guys would watch the game/fight with the girls, alternating with dances and jokes. They would tab out on a company gold AMEX. The girls would make several hundred, and the customers would leave happy.

2 years ago...guy walks into the club, and a drunk waitress hastily points them to a table in a dark corner. Then the waitress would flash her tits and ask for $20 tip. Then the waitress would offer them some cocaine she was selling. All the dancers would be sitting around one table near the bar drinking and bitching. The guys would sit and wait for a while, with no girl approaching. Finally, some ugly anchor types would come by and sit around with them for free, asking only for a Hennessy with sprite (gross!) in return. The conversation consists of the girls bitching about their baby daddy and how their bills are due. The cust wants to talk about sports and movies and travel. The anchor can't relate.

Eventually the guys would get bored with the girls and try to get rid of them. So the bitch would offer them head in return for some dances. Eventually, a decent hustler would find her way over to their table. Well, the guy has only spent $80, and has already come. He's done. No one has pointed the hustler over to the table of spenders. Not the manager or the waitress. As far as the hustler sees, these guys are happy sitting around with the anchors.

The customer doesn't even need to whip out a gold card, they can pay this with cash. Customer begins to expect this every time. Shit rolls downhill.

....that's my Houston experience, and its pretty accurate.

dayzed
06-09-2007, 01:44 PM
Eh, playful, flirtatious banter remains SOP in most of the clubs I frequent, and I rarely find myself wanting for strippers capable of interesting and insightful conversation. At the same time -- due in part I suppose to the industry-wide changes discussed throughout this thread -- I never lack for options when I want to be serviced in other ways. I greatly prefer these well-rounded and varied options to the more narrow parameters suggested by the "business partner and a gold Amex" scenario that was set forth above. (Meanwhile, seems like the guys in the latter, postapocalyptic ::) scenario simply were not sufficiently proactive in forging for themselves the clubbing experience that they wanted.)

Anyway, I say Vive Le Revolucion, and may the good times continue to roll.

liberator
06-14-2007, 08:34 AM
The reason the free-market system doesn't work is it has never truly been tried. Even in America there is too much government regulation. Houston and all the other cities with distance requirements,closing times,and alcohol bans in establishments that offer total nudity are perfect examples of silly nanny state government regulations that serve no compelling state interests. Let freedom reign. We have nothing to lose but our chains!

doc-catfish
06-14-2007, 02:58 PM
The reason the free-market system doesn't work is it has never truly been tried.
The reason that its never been tried is because most Americans don't want a free market. Only libertarians do and by most estimations they only constitute 20% of the population. Even as a libertarian myself, I have to admit a truly free market would bring about potential consequences that I personally might not find so pleasant.


Even in America there is too much government regulation. Houston and all the other cities with distance requirements,closing times,and alcohol bans in establishments that offer total nudity are perfect examples of silly nanny state government regulations that serve no compelling state interests. Let freedom reign. We have nothing to lose but our chains!
::)
And this hence is why libertarians are never taken seriously. Too much spouting of pretty little platitudes of what the world could be towards communities of like minded people (esspecially on the internet), and not enough of a planned strategy on how to get it done, except absurd suggestions that we all move to one state, take over the system there by democratic means, and then secede from the U.S.

Nothing will ever improve on this front until we quit preaching to the choir and take the fight to the enemy. But oh yeah in order to do that, that means dancers and customers alike would have to likely give up something that they hold dear to themselves with respect to their involvement in this business, their anonymity. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Until we get rid of the shame factor, the nanny state will have us all by the balls. Of course, without the shame factor, the SC'ing business might not exactly be a profitable one. Some have concluded the overall loosening of sexual boundaries in civilian society is the main reason SC's are in a state of decline right now.

liberator
06-14-2007, 05:35 PM
Freedom is frightening totalitarianism is tempting! This is why most people are afraid of free-markets and liberty in general.

Casual Observer
06-15-2007, 06:59 AM
And this hence is why libertarians are never taken seriously. Too much spouting of pretty little platitudes of what the world could be towards communities of like minded people (esspecially on the internet), and not enough of a planned strategy on how to get it done, except absurd suggestions that we all move to one state, take over the system there by democratic means, and then secede from the U.S.

Well said. Moreover, we move further from a libertarian utopia as we move further from a frontier-style nation.

liberator
06-15-2007, 01:24 PM
Is that a rhetorical statement?