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Hatshepsut
05-14-2007, 05:46 AM
Quoted for truth. I took this as a thread for people to vent about societal (and in my case familial) pressure to have a child when you truly don't want one.

To the moms who posted in here, I can identify with you because I am a mom, but you have no idea what it's like to have to explain yourself over and over again because you don't want to bear children (or in my case, any more children).

They're not saying that your kids aren't cute or that motherhood is not a blessed thing. They weren't really talking about you or your choices at all. They were talking about their perceived LACK of choices when they decide NOT to have kids.

Things were posted (especially LM's famous "fucktrophy") out of frustration, not out of hatred for your particular offspring. I see that now, and I wonder why the mommies can't.

Yes, it can be considered offensive, but give these women (and me to a certain extent) a break. You can't speak for those who feel this pressure and have to endure the snide remarks IRL.

Take it from this mom, ladies. Not all of us disagree with you. If I had it to do over again, I might have thought differently. Doesn't mean I don't love my child or mourn the one who's gone, but damn, life would've been so much easier.

As for my current choice to not breed an "heir", I side with the childfree. It's MY body, MY choice and MY life. No amount of love for my fiance or pressure from society is going to change my mind. NONE.
Thank you DylanAngel. However, about the, Give us a break part." Would we be given a break in the same situation?

evan_essence
05-14-2007, 06:33 AM
Wow. Some very good discussion and some not so good. The latter is bound to happen with an emotional topic that means so much to any of us, so hopefully no one will get too wound up about it. I'd hope that the moms could understand the need for the childfree women to have an environment to discuss their reasoning that doesn't include comments of ANY kind about the joys of motherhood, even relatively respectful. It's not that those joys are insignificant; it's that the topic here is reasons you are childfree. Any statement outside of that topic is bound to be felt by those staying on topic as a judgment. As a comparison, think for a moment about how we don't like customers giving their perspective in Stripping General because it's an area for strippers. (I'm sorry, Alexx, I know you're not intending to be judgmental but saying you feel sad that someone else won't experience something you're experiencing is the very definition of pity, so you shouldn't be surprised when you get that reaction to it. Think of this as a good reason to stop feeling sad about that, just feel glad it's yours to experience and gain satisfaction from.)

I hesitate to delve into my own reasons for being childfree since it's so complicated. For one, I suppose I'd be less than straightforward if I glossed over the fact that I got pregnant and gave up my baby when I was 18. I guess that's the ultimate in becoming childfree. There's more to the story than that, but I don't feel like dredging it all up. Suffice it to say, being asked if I have or want children is always a flashback to some very unpleasant memories.

Then there's my current sociological/physiological dilemma. I would seriously consider having children with my current partner. I think, in spite of my imperfections, we'd make good parents. (Well, who am I kidding? I think my ego is big enough to assume I'd be effin' awesome.) But having to rustle up the sperm for it is a topic that I've only seen portrayed on TV, not something I've actually checked out the details on, especially not here in podunk. (I mean the sperm bank thing, not asking for volunteers.) Plus, the state won't let us get married so I have no idea WTF the state thinks of lesbian parents, especially the rights, or lack thereof, of the non-biological one. Nor do I know, in the case of a more direct contribution, what the state believes the volunteer sperm donor's legal obligations are even if he signs them away. I know until recently the state had a secret unpublicized policy of not allowing gay couples to be foster parents so this ain't exactly liberal-thinking California. These hurdles alone make me less than enthusiastic to even explore the options, and if I can't get motivated to do that, well, how bad do I really want a baby?

Besides, those issues are nearly moot anyway, given our circumstances. I'm a healthy childbearing vessell but she is chronically ill and could possibly get worse, so that's taking all our financial and emotional resources. Adding a child would make it rough on everyone involved. Plus, it can happen at any time to any parent, but in our case, I don't like the predisposed odds on the possibility of me winding up as a widowed parent.

So, basically, this is the most introspective I've been about this for awhile. She brings it up every so often and cries about it. I try not to think too much about it, so I really don't appreciate it when some unthinking clod makes a big deal of it to me. Like the pair of old coots at a business function who, in response to my explaining my (non-stripping) career, asked immediately about children and then said condescendingly, "Well, you've still got time." WTF? You boys are my biological timekeepers now? Better get crackin', girly, that's what you're here for. Tick, tick, tick!

-Ev

Bridgette
05-14-2007, 06:45 AM
in response to my explaining my (non-stripping) career, asked immediately about children and then said condescendingly, "Well, you've still got time." WTF? You boys are my biological timekeepers now? Better get crackin', girly, that's what you're here for. Tick, tick, tick!Ugh I hate that shit. It annoys me to no end that these morons assume I'm unhappy or something because I don't have kids "yet". Please. It seems to me that more people *with* kids are the unhappy ones. *They* are the ones who talk wistfully of their pre-kid days when they used to be able to live more like I do, or simply stare and comment how they *wish* they could do things that I do, but can't because they have kids.

It seems to me that more often than not, people who have kids are doing it out of some sense of obligation and not a *real* choice. People who choose not to have kids are ALL doing it 100% *by choice*, no sense of obligation there. What's to be unahppy about when you're doing exactly what you wanted, instead of what you feel you have to do??

Furthermore, I tend to think those who try to pull that "so sad" crap on those of us who choose not to have kids are just projecting their own misery and trying to make themselves feel better.

I know as well as I know my name that if I never have kids I will NEVER regret it.

cameron_keys
05-14-2007, 07:41 AM
^^^Cameron was not saying that motherhood is all doom and gloom. Those statements you quoted were used to make a point. They are the equivalent of saying, "Motherhood is a superior type of love and I pity you if you're never able to feel it." It's the other side of that coin.

Thanks...glad to see someone understands what I was saying. I thought i was speaking in tounges there for a minute!!!

christian211
05-14-2007, 07:52 AM
Christian repeatedly posted her unsolicited opinions, blatantly ignoring the opening paragraph, as are others. She did not talk of her choice to be Childfree or even Childed, she automatically made herlself a victim and used it as an excuse to insult others. She took everything as a personal insult, and totally misinterpreted everything as a personal insult. SHe even admitted that she posted because "She was mad about the fucktrophy comment." See? She even admitted that her lashout posts didn't hae to do with this, as nobody had said anything about fucktrophies at the point. She assumed that she was being attacked, and felt perfectly entitled to shit on us. I'd like to emphasize that she did this REPEATEDLY. I did not automatically label her as an entitlemoo, I did it after she failed to learn or even acknowledge that she was annoying, condescending, and a pot calling the kettle black, namely by blaming others of snobbery and elitism. I am not begrudging her for being a mother, I am mad because she's intolerant, judgmental, illogical, and feels perfectly entitled to be all the above. Entitlemoo is one of the many words for entitlement-minded people. People who find it all right to tell me that I'm going to hell are called Biblethumpers, etc.


And if you knew me irl you would know I'm none of those things you mentioned. I reread my posts and they don't sound especially caustic to me. I've read plenty worse on here. And stop calling me that shit, please. It's fuckin queer already. And I think some of this stems from you FEELING victimized for your decision to not have kids. Chill. You're prob not going to hell::)

kb52420
05-14-2007, 09:09 AM
Seriously, can we NOT have any more of the "I used to be like you--then I grew up and learned what real love is."

I'm sorry, kb, but it seems you need to read the thread and think about where your comments fit in. Nowhere.


no, no... I didn't mean it like that!!! I meant it's different when it's your own kid. I am not insinuating that someone doesn't know what love is cause they don't have a kid, that's not what I was trying to convey @ all. I'm sure there's lots of ppl on here that know what love is, be it they love themselves or someone else. I'm just trying to convey that if you don't want kids and you end up with one, it's not the end of the world. Sorry for the miscommunication, there.:)

kb52420
05-14-2007, 09:35 AM
dont care dont care dont care. argh. that is the thing EVERYONE says to me and it shits me to tears.

"Oh, I used to say that I didn't want kids either, and look at me now!" in a way that implies that oh yes, I will change my mind.


no, I was just saying that if you do end up with kids it doesn't suck as much as you'd think. I'm not trying to change anyones' mind! I don't care about if you have kids or not! Quite honestly, I've never met any of you and you could all do whatever you like, even if I DID know you, cause it's YOUR life to live, NOT MINE, and I am not trying to be a damn fascist about it!!! I'm JUST saying that if you have a kid accidentally or WHATEVER it really isn't as bad as you would think, because it's like, yours. I also believe STRONGLY that NOT EVERYONE should have kids. BTW, I'm just going to take a minute to thank the folks who aren't having kids for what they're not doing (having kids). There's already too many kids and not enough parents to go around anyway. So, maybe we should fix our fuck ups before we bring any more kids into it, right? not to say that's the childfree peoples' job cause that's not. they're exactly that- child *FREE*. However, I really don't want to offend anyone by saying this, but why don't the childless, instead of trying in vitro and fertilization pills and monitors and highly expensive doctors, just adopt a less fortunate child that really needs someone? Granted it's not exactly the same but I would figure it's just as rewarding if not moreso. I met a girl in a thrift store one day, and she adopted a baby that was a year and a half old and she couldn't sit up on her own or hold her own bottle, and when they got her, she had crack cocaine in her system. I had to give that woman mad props cause she couldn't have kids. so she found a baby who needed a better life. Not to say that people who go the in vitro route are wrong for what they're doing, just a thought. It is different when it's your kid after all. Like I said, I'm not trying to bash on anyone, here. I just was stating my opinion on the whole thing. But you know what they say... those are like assholes, you run into at least one a day.

redvelvetrose
05-14-2007, 11:18 AM
What I find sad here is reading that those of you who CAN'T have kids will never know the love I feel. Does that mean I think you should have kids despite your conditions and circumstances? No, certainly not. But I do think that the love you feel for a child is probably the purest, strongest and most natural thing in this world. I find it heartbreaking that some people won't or can't know what that's like.



Maybe it's just me, but I didn't read any patronizing messages from this paragraph. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong), that Alexxa meant that for people who really, really want kids, but can't actually bear them, it's heartbreaking miss out on a love like that.

For the rest of us who prefer to remain Childfree, since many of us don't feel the love for children to begin with, that doesn't really apply.

GoldCoastGirl
05-14-2007, 11:22 AM
*sigh*

:(

Kaylinn
05-14-2007, 11:51 AM
kb,

You keep repeating over and over that it's different when it's your own kid. According to that logic, that it is ALWAYS different when it's your own kid, if abortion was banned tomorrow, and all these childfree people accidentially got pregnant and were forced to have their babies, they would automaticially love them when they were born, just cause it's different when it's your own kid.
That just isn't true.
Not everyone has that instinct to love their own child. If they did...would some mothers leave their babies in dumpsters? Dump them in alleys? Leave them with someone and run away? Abuse them or beat them? I'm not saying ALL childfree women who were forced to have babies would act this way. But I am saying it's not always different when it's your own child. Some women just do not have that automatic instinct to love their child just because its theirs. If a woman who did not want children was forced to have one, they would regret that child for life, feel trapped, feel forced into something they didn't want, and resent the child for taking away their freedom.

Some women who choose to be child free who accidentially had a baby for whatever reason may change their mind and love and want their baby. But not all of them.
I personally want children, someday. Not right now, but someday. But I understand that having children sint alwyas an instinct that women are born with. Some people just choose for whatever reason to not have children. That's ok.

And as for you saying that having a baby accidentialyl isn't as bad as you would think because it is, afterall, your child...well, thats just BS. Sometimes, it really is, as bad as they think. For a person who has choosen to be childfree, for whatever reason, to be forced into motherhood, is really that bad, for them. Having a baby isn't all fun and games. It's hard work. Its very selfless. Its time consuming. Yes, there is good with the bad, but to some people, it's all bad. They don't want to give up their freedom and be tied down. That's perfectly ok. You have a child. You know it's not all great and wonderful all the time. There are some really rough, very challenging times raising kids. Not everyone wants thoes challanges, not everyone is able to handle it.
I don't understand why you think that's so bad.

Like I said, I personally want kids, but I understand that it isn't for everyone. Just cause its your kid dont change the fact that some women just werent made to want babies.

Mastridonicus
05-14-2007, 11:53 AM
Really, it's all about choice. The love Alexxa feels for her child can be the same love Snakebaby feels for her man when their out enjoying their world, lilith can feel in her new car, goldcoastgirl can feel for her adoptive child or even a cat.

That's why it's called passion people. It's a decision that motivates us right now for any length of time that we choose to get a 100% behind when it needs to either be shared or protected. It's passion that makes us truly believe what we're saying on topics such as this and the same thing that allows us to get upset even at the slightest mis-interpretation of a possible counterpoint and the person stating it.

Could you change your mind on anything you're passionate about? Sure. Can someone else complete you for you and thusly help in that decision? No.

We're people. We're diverse. It's a good thing. *Sips Coffee*

Vyanka
05-14-2007, 11:54 AM
I don't have one, bc i'm not married. I'll only have a child if i'm married, & if my husband really wants one too. I would be cool with it if he wanted one or not. But IDK, I don't have that mommy-to-be itch yet right now. Maybe later on. Who knows.

cameron_keys
05-14-2007, 11:55 AM
^^ thank you kaylinn for wording that so well.

kb52420
05-14-2007, 12:25 PM
I'm not trying to change anyones' mind! I don't care about if you have kids or not! Quite honestly, I've never met any of you and you could all do whatever you like, even if I DID know you, cause it's YOUR life to live, NOT MINE, and I am not trying to be a damn fascist about it!!! I'm JUST saying that if you have a kid accidentally or WHATEVER it really isn't as bad as you would think, because it's like, yours.


yeah I guess I never really thought about it that way but I also wonder if that's due in part to drugs/ ppd/ ppp or some extinuating circumstances? And the reason I ask is because my doctors thought I was @ serious risk for ppp (post partum psychosis) and I really haven't had any symptoms of depression or ppp. So I figured it was all a bunch of malarky. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I guess I was just misinformed, and please don't say I told you so, cause that's just mean. I apologize.:)

redvelvetrose
05-14-2007, 12:44 PM
Really, it's all about choice. The love Alexxa feels for her child can be the same love Snakebaby feels for her man when their out enjoying their world, lilith can feel in her new car, goldcoastgirl can feel for her adoptive child or even a cat.

That's why it's called passion people. It's a decision that motivates us right now for any length of time that we choose to get a 100% behind when it needs to either be shared or protected. It's passion that makes us truly believe what we're saying on topics such as this and the same thing that allows us to get upset even at the slightest mis-interpretation of a possible counterpoint and the person stating it.

Could you change your mind on anything you're passionate about? Sure. Can someone else complete you for you and thusly help in that decision? No.

We're people. We're diverse. It's a good thing. *Sips Coffee*

Ah, the wisdom of Mastridonicus. :thumbsup:

Kaylinn
05-14-2007, 12:58 PM
See, your like, searching and grasping for a reason WHY some women feel the need to be childfree. Why does there have to be a reason for it? Why does there have to be extenuating circumstances? Why can't you accept the fact that some women just do not have the desire and instinct to create life? Some women just have different wants and desires in their life.

Paintbaby
05-14-2007, 02:19 PM
^^^^ Exactly. There should be no need to have to justify such a personal choice. People who choose to have kids certainly don't have that expectation of having to explain themselves and their choice thrust upon them.

"Do you want kids?"

"Nope".

"Okay, then."

That would be nice. Just being able to answer a simple question, and not be subject to scrutiny, or regarded with suspicion, or judged to be immature or lacking. *sigh* Isn't really the case in the real world--though I suspect that as the childfree movement grows, it might be a choice that people don't feel the need to jump all over--or, at the very least, keep their misinformed opinions about to themselves.

cameron_keys
05-14-2007, 02:39 PM
^^^^ Exactly. There should be no need to have to justify such a personal choice. People who choose to have kids certainly don't have that expectation of having to explain themselves and their choice thrust upon them.

"Do you want kids?"

"Nope".

"Okay, then."

That would be nice. Just being able to answer a simple question, and not be subject to scrutiny, or regarded with suspicion, or judged to be immature or lacking. *sigh* Isn't really the case in the real world--though I suspect that as the childfree movement grows, it might be a choice that people don't feel the need to jump all over--or, at the very least, keep their misinformed opinions about to themselves.

I KNOW! You dont ever see the opposite..

"so do you have kids?"
"yes I do"
"really? why? dont you regret it?"

You never see that...so why do we have to defend ourselves constantly??? Why cant BOTH choices be normal and healthy??

hyzenthflay
05-14-2007, 02:49 PM
Theoretically, I want children, but I am just too stingy with my own time and life right now.
I've been able to see most of the US in my 20's, and I fully intend on moving to and working in the UK when I'm finished with college.
I just can't see spending up to 20 years of my life taking care of someone else, no matter how rewarding it can be for some.
I may foster/adopt a child as I get on in age and have seen and done most everything that I've wanted to.

AlexxaHex
05-14-2007, 03:00 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I didn't read any patronizing messages from this paragraph. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong), that Alexxa meant that for people who really, really want kids, but can't actually bear them, it's heartbreaking miss out on a love like that.

For the rest of us who prefer to remain Childfree, since many of us don't feel the love for children to begin with, that doesn't really apply.

That is pretty much what I meant. Thank you for recognizing that. See how I put the word "can't" in all caps.
I don't think that it's possible to feel love unless you give it. Therefore the people who are incapable of loving children wouldn't ever know it. Those people should just not have kids. I think y'all are in agreement but having a field day using me as an example to prove a point.

Oh and Bridgette, I love how you conveniently skimmed over my question. :P If you're going to bring up some personal flamey issues then you should be prepared to back it up. Or PM me if you want. But I find it rude to throw out an insult like you did (saying I have a habit of being narrow minded) and then not even have the common courtesy to explain yourself.

Whatever - it's not the first time I've been flamed for some trivial shit and probably won't be the last. If anybody at all wants me to stop posting here, then please report me to a mod and have me banned. That's the only way I'll stop sharing my opinions, regardless of the thread topic.

Paintbaby
05-14-2007, 04:18 PM
^^^^ Alexxa, obviously there is a difference of opinion, which has gotten quite, uh, "lively". ::) This thread is about the childfree, and why we have chosen our lifestyle, yet it seems to have decayed into a childfree vs. childed debate, which usually seems to be how it goes in these types of discussions. As a woman, I can tell you that it really frosts my ass having to justify such a personal choice to the world, since a woman does not HAVE to fill her womb just because she has one. But I'll always give it a go in the hopes of introducing a new perspective to someone who is interested in learning.

And for the record, although I was being somewhat facetious in my post about painting, I can say with certainty that the love I feel for my creations is just as rewarding as that which you feel for your child. Different love objects yes, but as an artist who makes her living doing what I do, I can tell you that the intensity of my creative process brings me just as much joy as the intensity of the love you feel for your child. Believe me when I say that us childfree folk have passions in our lives that equal the intensity of love a mother has for her child. Pure love is pure love, as I said earlier. Where I think this thread got offtrack is when there were some statements made that came across as patronizing, and nothing that childfree people haven't heard before.

I'm a bit confused about this statement you made, though: "I don't feel that it's possible to feel love unless you give it. Therefore the people who are incapable of loving children wouldn't even know it". Not quite sure of the meaning here--can you explain what you mean?

DylanAngel
05-14-2007, 04:27 PM
Thank you DylanAngel. However, about the, Give us a break part." Would we be given a break in the same situation?

Hey!! That was meant to give you (meaning the childfree) a break, silly!;)

Seriously hon, reread it. I think you just misread.:)

jaizaine
05-14-2007, 04:27 PM
This thread is about the childfree, and why we have chosen our lifestyle, yet it seems to have decayed into a childfree vs. childed debate


Agreed. I knew it couldnt last without turning into a debate. Frustrating really. I don't understand why if it's so joyous being a mother that some women feel that need to try to convince childfree women of this joy - just enjoy it yourselves and let others live their own lives please!

Edit: I don't want to ad anything more to the debate. I am going to ignore any posts that are not relevant to the who is childfree and why question (aka the question the thread actually asked)

AlexxaHex
05-14-2007, 04:41 PM
^^^^ Alexxa, obviously there is a difference of opinion, which has gotten quite, uh, "lively". ::) This thread is about the childfree, and why we have chosen our lifestyle, yet it seems to have decayed into a childfree vs. childed debate, which usually seems to be how it goes in these types of discussions. As a woman, I can tell you that it really frosts my ass having to justify such a personal choice to the world, since a woman does not HAVE to fill her womb just because she has one. But I'll always give it a go in the hopes of introducing a new perspective to someone who is interested in learning.

And for the record, although I was being somewhat facetious in my post about painting, I can say with certainty that the love I feel for my creations is just as rewarding as that which you feel for your child. Different love objects yes, but as an artist who makes her living doing what I do, I can tell you that the intensity of my creative process brings me just as much joy as the intensity of the love you feel for your child. Believe me when I say that us childfree folk have passions in our lives that equal the intensity of love a mother has for her child. Pure love is pure love, as I said earlier. Where I think this thread got offtrack is when there were some statements made that came across as patronizing, and nothing that childfree people haven't heard before.

I'm a bit confused about this statement you made, though: "I don't feel that it's possible to feel love unless you give it. Therefore the people who are incapable of loving children wouldn't even know it". Not quite sure of the meaning here--can you explain what you mean?

I can't believe anyone here still feels after my many posts (which are becoming tiring and pointless to reiterate over and over by the way) that I am attacking or patronizing in any possible way. I have heard the same shit myself up until the point I decided to have a baby, so you're pretty much preaching to the choir here about not having kids. Of course my parents and grandparents harped on me for most of my early to mid 20s about settling down and such when I wasn't ready. I've heard the "you'll change your mind" stuff too. The only difference is that I did at some point. So I know what you are feeling. I'm not trying to go against that.

As far as love goes, that's a personal thing too. But I do think that there are different KINDS of love, and the love I feel for my baby is different from the love I feel for my art. Maybe the intensity is the same as with other passions, but it's different in many ways.
And yes, to receive love, you have to give it. The people who do not give love to children will not feel it in return. That's all I meant. I thought it was pretty self explanatory.

cameron_keys
05-14-2007, 04:49 PM
Just because someone doesnt have children of their own doesnt mean they dont love children.Yes I know I know....differant when its your own....

But to say that someone is "incapable of loving children" is assuming a WHOLE lot.
i'm sure there are many child free out there who have children they love...nieces,nephews,friends children, god-children, etc...etc... and get love back from them

DylanAngel
05-14-2007, 04:52 PM
Just because someone doesnt have children of their own doesnt mean they dont love children.Yes I know I know....differant when its your own....

But to say that someone is "incapable of loving children" is assuming a WHOLE lot.
i'm sure there are many child free out there who have children they love...nieces,nephews,friends children, god-children, etc...etc... and get love back from them

Absolutely. My aunt is one of these people. Very career oriented, didn't want to be tied down, loved to travel. She just got married for the first time at 52 (but she looks 30...another plus to not having children, lol)

But, I'll tell you...you'd think it was the second coming of Christ whenever she shows up for a holiday. My brothers and I and our children love her death. She's like a second mom to all of us.

Deni
05-14-2007, 05:18 PM
.....

kb52420
05-14-2007, 05:48 PM
I meant that there must be an extenuating circumstance when it comes to folks leaving their babies in dumpsters. I don't care if one decides not to have kids, that's their choice. but for someone to leave their kid in a dumpster or something horrendous like that must be at least a little bit off, since they could always give it up for adoption or @ least take it to the nearest hospital. No child should have to be left in a fucking dumpster, and yeah, you have to be one sick fuck to misconstrew a childs' innocence by doing something like leaving it in a trash can so it can starve to death.


If you're childfree or not, you can't deny that, yes, leaving a newborn baby in a trash can to starve and die is fucked up.

AlexxaHex
05-14-2007, 06:11 PM
Just because someone doesnt have children of their own doesnt mean they dont love children.Yes I know I know....differant when its your own....

But to say that someone is "incapable of loving children" is assuming a WHOLE lot.
i'm sure there are many child free out there who have children they love...nieces,nephews,friends children, god-children, etc...etc... and get love back from them

:banghead: That is not what I said!! Please stop reading my posts or something...you're just taking everything way differently than I intend it to mean.

cameron_keys
05-14-2007, 07:05 PM
:banghead: That is not what I said!! Please stop reading my posts or something...you're just taking everything way differently than I intend it to mean.

Ok then..please explain.

You said "I don't feel that it's possible to feel love unless you give it. Therefore the people who are incapable of loving children wouldn't even know it"."

Why would you say that?

AlexxaHex
05-14-2007, 08:05 PM
I can't believe anyone here still feels after my many posts (which are becoming tiring and pointless to reiterate over and over by the way) that I am attacking or patronizing in any possible way. I have heard the same shit myself up until the point I decided to have a baby, so you're pretty much preaching to the choir here about not having kids. Of course my parents and grandparents harped on me for most of my early to mid 20s about settling down and such when I wasn't ready. I've heard the "you'll change your mind" stuff too. The only difference is that I did at some point. So I know what you are feeling. I'm not trying to go against that.

As far as love goes, that's a personal thing too. But I do think that there are different KINDS of love, and the love I feel for my baby is different from the love I feel for my art. Maybe the intensity is the same as with other passions, but it's different in many ways.
And yes, to receive love, you have to give it. The people who do not give love to children will not feel it in return. That's all I meant. I thought it was pretty self explanatory.


Ok then..please explain.

You said "I don't feel that it's possible to feel love unless you give it. Therefore the people who are incapable of loving children wouldn't even know it"."

Why would you say that?

I already explained myself. See the above quote. If you still don't get it, then please just let it go. I don't have the energy to keep repeating myself.

aussiepunkshocker
05-14-2007, 08:13 PM
Wow, wtf are people pissed with Alexxa for?
I almost posted something simular myself yesterday. Luckelly for me I had a photoshoot I had to run to instead ::)

And the next bit isnt directed at Alexxa at all.

Women who want to stay childfree will generally not believe theyre missing out on anything, whilst women who have children will know exactly what theyre missing out on. Im not saying one group is right and one group is wrong. Im also not saying that even the things missed out on are good or bad because it depends on how you look at it and how you feel. I am saying that its a fact that one group has been both childfree and not child free. And that at times they might sound patronising due to personal experience and having previously felt simular to child free women but lived to tell the tale. :)

Some (not all) of the reasons for wanting to stay child free are trivial, exaggerated, missing points or sometimes just incorrect.

Unfortunatly for the want-to-be-childfree women what you have against you is that women over the course of time have said exactly what you say and then have turned around and had kids and loved being mums. No one can help that.
(Hormones and human nature have alot to answer for.)


Plenty of childfree people are just as rude and annoying about not having kids as pushy people are about having them.

Besides, life is hard sometimes period. Grow and learn from the hard times.

Oh yeah and fuck off with the stupid remarks about stretch marks and sagging tits. Do I have stretch marks and sagging tits, do all mums?
Funny how BB has stacks of threads from childless women who have stretch marks and I believe not all of the saggy boob threads are posted my women whove had kids either.

greenidlady1
05-14-2007, 08:34 PM
I don't have any children. I met my ex-husband when I was 19 and we were together up until last year. We discussed having children a couple of times but we never seemed to be in the "right" situation to have them, good thing we didn't I guess. I also have endometriosis which may or may not affect my fertility. I don't want children now though. I don't want to be a single mother. I also worry about elements I might pass down to my children. However, the older I get the more I seem to want children. Maybe if I met a good man and he wanted to I would being that his family history is better than mine. I really didn't believe a lot in psychics until a couple of years ago. I went with my ex to see one on a fun whim. She said I would soon take a job involving a lot of travel. I would live somewhere surrounded by water, I was very close to my grandmother and I would have two kids. Well, I do have a job that does involve a lot of travel, I am close to my grandmother, I am not completely surrounded by water but a lake is close by. I am now wondering about the two kids.:-\

aussiepunkshocker
05-14-2007, 09:05 PM
^^^ Interesting Greenlady. I have been told by almost every psychic / reader Ive seen that I am going to have two children. My second child is maked clearly on my palm too apparently as everytime I have my palm read they spot it. Funny though because I read palms too and I just cant see it... Maybe I just dont want to see it, Im not sure, lol.
Im determined not to have a second child though. (Although due to spiritual / reincarnation issues I do sometimes debate various senarios in my head of maybe.)
With readings you do still have the power to change your destiny alot of the time so it could well come true. On the other hand if you have doubts either conciously or subconsiously maybe your putting out the energy so as not to bring destiny to fruition.

Edited to add incase its of interest.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/Jowanna/figure181.gif

The child lines run through the relationship lines on the hand. Relationship lines are the horizontal ones shown in the diagramme (A) and B and C are the child lines. Boys usually show up as stronger lines whilst girls often are quite hard to see. (This diagramme looks like 2 boys to me, lol - from the same relationship.)

Some people have been known to study thes line so much they can even tell you what sort of problems your children are likely to have. (learning problems, development etc) This is delving into the scientific area of palmistry though.

Its not a totally accurate way of determining children though because abortions and miscarraiges can show up too although they are usually underdeveloped lines. Also other peoples children that you may be close to can show there too. Its also nice because adopted, step and fostered children show there.

Men have these lines also.

AlexxaHex
05-14-2007, 09:35 PM
^That is pretty interesting...
I'm not sure how to interpret it. I have two very strong and parallel relationship lines and the 1 child line (which is very faint) overlaps both of them.

edit: I tried mapping it out with key symbols but it didnt work.. :/

jaizaine
05-14-2007, 09:37 PM
Screw this thread Im done totally its got nothing to do with its original purpose.

Paintbaby
05-14-2007, 09:39 PM
I think some of the confusion on this thread lies with the term "childfree". Childfree means choosing to not EVER become a mother, or father. People who go on in their lives to have children were never "childfree" in the true sense of the word--they were childless, until they decided to have children. The childfree community is very specific about the meaning of "childfree". It isn't a default setting, until you decide to have kids. We do not call ourselves "childless" for the reason that the term implies a lack of something---and we definitely do not feel that lack.

I'm with you, Jaizaine. I'm done here, too. Shame we can't even have a thread of our own without causing hysteria and ruffled feathers all around. I think that says something about the latent hostility toward the childfree in general.

LilSweetVixen
05-14-2007, 09:48 PM
No one has mentioned (except Esco?) that having a kid could be immoral.

aussiepunkshocker
05-14-2007, 10:02 PM
I cant recall ever having seen child lines which over lap two relationship lines - however I do most of my readings in strip club lighting and they are the hardest lines to see. I have alot of relationship lines but my child line doesnt overlap any of them and my son has two dads and has had some of my other boyfriends play an active part of his life. Im wondering if yours might suggest a 2nd relationship in a poly type situation? I dunno though is my honest answer :)

Sorry for the thread jack people.




^That is pretty interesting...
I'm not sure how to interpret it. I have two very strong and parallel relationship lines and the 1 child line (which is very faint) overlaps both of them.

edit: I tried mapping it out with key symbols but it didnt work.. :/

Darcy Foxx
05-14-2007, 10:04 PM
I don't even think it's a 'hostility' towards the childfree that bothers us so much... it's more so an un-needed feeling of sympathy that's directed towards us, and the way people, often unintentionally, imply that we're sad or wrong or immature.

Like someone said earlier, if you tell someone you haven't had kids, then you'll often get the sympathetic/encouraging, "Oh, well, keep your chin up, you've still got a bit of time!"

However, I can't ever think of a time when a young mother has mentioned that they have a child and people have all gone, "Gee, you sure had kids young, didn't you! I bet you regret that!"

It's exactly the same thing... only opposite.

I remember at my old agency we were sitting around in the office... there was me, a 20 year old with a kid, a 21 year old with a kid, and another girl who was 20 and pregnant. They started pressuring me as to when I was going to have kids, I said never, and basically started getting attacked by all three of them. In far more words, they told me, "No. You are wrong. You WILL change your mind. You are immature and you don't know it yet but you actually DO want kids because we know everything because we accidentally got preggers."

This happens to me, ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

aussiepunkshocker
05-14-2007, 10:08 PM
I think the "hysteria" runs on both sides as do the ruffled feathers.

I think its not realistic to talk about having a "thread of your own" on stripperweb anyway. Its a public stripper forum. Aside from LO I cant imagine posting here and only expecting imput from one set of people or people who only think one way.

The whole child free childless arguement isnt really a solid one because theres always going to be people who cross over from both sides.




I think some of the confusion on this thread lies with the term "childfree". Childfree means choosing to not EVER become a mother, or father. People who go on in their lives to have children were never "childfree" in the true sense of the word--they were childless, until they decided to have children. The childfree community is very specific about the meaning of "childfree". It isn't a default setting, until you decide to have kids. We do not call ourselves "childless" for the reason that the term implies a lack of something---and we definitely do not feel that lack.

I'm with you, Jaizaine. I'm done here, too. Shame we can't even have a thread of our own without causing hysteria and ruffled feathers all around. I think that says something about the latent hostility toward the childfree in general.

aussiepunkshocker
05-14-2007, 10:13 PM
Yeah the whole sympathy thing is ridiculous to say the least!

Believe me though people make off comments all the time about having kids young. I get it alot.

Anyone who insists that you should have children or insists that you will regret it if you dont or that you change your mind is a moron.

I dont think life is more difficult for child free people than for ones with children though - its just different, its life.




I don't even think it's a 'hostility' towards the childfree that bothers us so much... it's more so an un-needed feeling of sympathy that's directed towards us, and the way people, often unintentionally, imply that we're sad or wrong or immature.

Like someone said earlier, if you tell someone you haven't had kids, then you'll often get the sympathetic/encouraging, "Oh, well, keep your chin up, you've still got a bit of time!"

However, I can't ever think of a time when a young mother has mentioned that they have a child and people have all gone, "Gee, you sure had kids young, didn't you! I bet you regret that!"

It's exactly the same thing... only opposite.

I remember at my old agency we were sitting around in the office... there was me, a 20 year old with a kid, a 21 year old with a kid, and another girl who was 20 and pregnant. They started pressuring me as to when I was going to have kids, I said never, and basically started getting attacked by all three of them. In far more words, they told me, "No. You are wrong. You WILL change your mind. You are immature and you don't know it yet but you actually DO want kids because we know everything because we accidentally got preggers."

This happens to me, ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

Lysondra
05-14-2007, 10:35 PM
Hatsheput, I cleared my inbox.

LatinaRose
05-14-2007, 10:36 PM
we accidentally got preggers."



See, this is what I want to avoid. I actually want kids, just not now and not accidentally. I want to do it right with 2 loving parents in the same home. I hate when people make me feel like I should have a kid just because I'm going on 25. Obviously, if you accidentally got preggers, you don't know it all.

mild2wild
05-14-2007, 10:46 PM
I dont have kids... but really wish for them! my partner and I have been trying... andd trying and trying - but nothing seems to wrok! Just total dissapointment every month!

It makes me feel insecure that he will want to get another girl and pro-create :(

GoldCoastGirl
05-14-2007, 10:52 PM
I dont think life is more difficult for child free people than for ones with children though - its just different, its life.

Quoted because I so agree.

Anyway to continue with the thread jack because honestly it doesn't look like we will get back to the original point of this thread anytime soon (hence the reason for my "sigh" post earlier)....

I'm glad that the children lines are not restricted to just children you give birth to ... that it includes foster and such like. It certainly explains all my child lines due to my child care TAFE course, baby sitting and such in my life. I've had children in my life just never any of my own and that is the way it will be for me. I'm happy and content with that fact.

I'm done with this thread as well. Shame.

RoseWhite
05-14-2007, 11:02 PM
You made excellent points, Darcy (and others); I just wanted to add one thing here that may help shed some light on why feathers are bound to be ruffled. (Or maybe I'm just adding to the confusion). ;)



However, I can't ever think of a time when a young mother has mentioned that they have a child and people have all gone, "Gee, you sure had kids young, didn't you! I bet you regret that!"


Oh, but believe me, this does happen to young mothers, as aussiepunkshocker already pointed out. I've had several friends who had children young and they definitely got snide remarks and asides and generally hassled for making that choice. "You'll be missing out on so much in life" and so forth.

You know who else it happens to? Older mothers, who 'waited too long' and are criticized for it. "You won't have any energy left, don't you think it's irresponsible, wasn't it dangerous to be pregnant at your age," and so forth.

And then, when you are a mother, ALL of your choices are suspect ALL THE TIME. Strangers don't want you to breastfeed. Strangers think you're abusive for feeding your child formula. Family members who disagree with your policy on shared sleep. Mothers-in-law who think you're just plain doing everything wrong. EVERYONE has an opinion on how your kid should be raised, on what kind of a mom you should be, and from what I've seen from the outside, it tends to be women who are the most vocal critics of other women.

You think this issue is bad? What do you think would happen if I started a thread out with "Here's a thread for working mothers to talk about their reasons they chose to work. Please don't flame this thread, this is not for stay-at-home moms." Or vice versa. It'd turn into a bloodbath, that's what. Or if it were only for those who had abortions, or only for those who didn't have abortions, or any number of the choices that women have to make in their lives, about their identities and their bodies.

So what's really at work here? What's UNDERLYING this? Is it that we as women are so used to being criticized for all of our choices that we automatically get defensive when it coes to such choice-based issues? And because when we're criticized, the opposite choice is often held up as a standard to us, and therefore we tend to base our arguments against that?

I'm just thinking out loud here. We've had wave after wave of feminism, several generations now. We all should be able to make these choices freely by now - and SHOULD be able to keep those decisions to ourselves and not feel obligated to defend them to anyone. And yet here we still are, fighting amongst ourselves.

One last thing: Note that this is not in Ladies Only. And "Childfree" is not gender-specific. Yet we've had, what, 3 male contributors? 4? After all these years, the choice to become a mother or NOT become a mother is still suspect - and the strongest questioners are other women.

aussiepunkshocker
05-14-2007, 11:05 PM
>>Applauds Rose White<<

Well said (-:

Dottie Rebel
05-14-2007, 11:25 PM
^^^Yeah, I'll applaud that, for sure.

It's still a shame, though. We wanted to discuss a shared belief with other like-minded individuals and not have to deflect the same boring, hackneyed cliches we have to deal with every single day.

kittenkat
05-14-2007, 11:42 PM
Child-free here. Rosewhite, thanks for that amazing post.