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aussiepunkshocker
05-15-2007, 06:22 PM
How do you know what things people say to parents about having kids since you dont actually have any? People can be very rude you know if that isnt already obvious.

I believe certain people here have chipped in on occasion with their anti-child viewpoint when a thread has been about pregnancy / having children, I dont recall and outrage over it though ::)

I likes xdamagex's threads.

And why the fuck is everyone getting their knickers in a knot about how the threads going? Check any other long thread on SW and see how they go, whats so special about this one?

And why all the blame shifting? As far as I can see there is not one side being all "nice and sensible" and the other being "agressive and nasty"

And why are so many people leaving the thread and then returning? Why not just say "Im feeling irritated, so Im going for a while" :O



Imagine that there was a thread called, "I love my kids." Most Childfree people would never dream of posting something along the lines of, "Oh, too bad you'll never be able to keep all your vacation days to yourself, and you'll always be thinking of your kids in the back of your head. I pity those who aren't free like me." We Childfree know that most people would take offense to stuff like that, and that it's not our domain. However, we don't get the same decency. Some parents just don't seem to realize that their good intentions are actually trespasses and intrusions that they would not forgive if they got the same. You know how there are well-intended compliments that are actually annoying, condescending, and belittling, like, "Why are you stripping? You're too smart and pretty to be here." That's what we hear when we hear our choice being belittled. I mean, they have no qualms with their giving "enlightening advice," yet if I spoke of how happy I am not to be leashed down, it's considered snobbery. As corny as it is, try putting yourself in the other side of the mirror, and hear the words that would be spoken to you.

Summed up: It's not the parenthood that bugs me, it's the egocentricism. Please realize that some things are not your domain. I realize that this is a public forum, but I don't write derailing posts on threads that don't concern me, such as loving children sooo much and wanting to get pregnant. There's a difference between presenting a different opinion and joining a conversation that does not concern you.

Deni
05-15-2007, 06:23 PM
Why oh why did I come back to this dam thread it just gets worse!

Ok I realise it's a public forum but get this and I think u only need a very moderate IQ to comprehend:

"Who here is childfree and why?"
Let me think is that so hard

(a) who here is childfree
Ok I am so I can answer

(b) why
here you put your reasons

There is no (c) I am not childfree but I choose to derail the thread because my opinions are so important that everyone here must be forced to read them.


Well, it's obviously a respect...well, a lack thereof. It has derailed and ruined the thread, but I've tried to ignore those posts and list my additional reasons for wanting to remain childfree. I agree with you, though, and feel like this thread has gone down in flames with no chance of revival. It could have been a great non-heated discussion (if some people could just respect the OP and the original topic), but that's not the way things seem to go around here anymore.

xdamage
05-15-2007, 06:27 PM
....but they don't get to go through pregnancy. That's the point of the post. A man is trying to tell me what I should do with my body. And hell yes, it makes me steamed. Unfortunately, poor Xdamage got caught up in my rage.

I wish this question had originated on the blue side.... I've been saying for more years then I can remember, women bear a much greater brunt of the downsides of pregnancy. I understand that completely Dylan, and I'm not judging you or that, and moreover, if it was my body I have no doubt that would weigh into my decision. And all that aside, I still see no reason to ream the women that have had kids and are adding to the thread that their experience with their kids has been amazing ... maybe I'm blind, but I don't see at all what that has to do with entitlement, and I think it's cool that they see their kids as a key factor in their lives. Some people will make major contributes without kids. Some will do nothing but please themselves. But if you do end up with them, I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with enjoying the hell out of them, making them high priority in your life, and feeling no shame at all in telling others how important they are too you. Not that others are going to relate, but hey, who said everyone else has to relate when we express ourselves?

DylanAngel
05-15-2007, 06:33 PM
Not that others are going to relate, but hey, who said everyone else has to relate when we express ourselves?

LOL, very true. And now that I'm laughing, I'm exiting for good...I think.;)

Sorry I blew up. Maybe I just should have blown up at my father in law instead.

Deni
05-15-2007, 06:35 PM
LOL, very true. And now that I'm laughing, I'm exiting for good...I think.;)

Sorry I blew up. Maybe I just should have blown up at my father in law instead.

It would be the mom-in-law for me, so I hear you! :P

xdamage
05-15-2007, 06:49 PM
Sorry I blew up. Maybe I just should have blown up at my father in law instead.

Actually I much prefer it when people express their opinions and get it the fuck out then holding it all in. You spoke your mind well, and I admire that even if we don't agree on the specifics. We all come from a different life experience, and we all have a lot of crosses that we bear. I don't hold anything against you for saying what was in your heart in mind at the time you said it. I never walked in your shoes so I have no business judging you or how you see things.

Mily
05-15-2007, 07:37 PM
ANYWAY!!! If anyone wants to go back TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC...which I have thoroughly read and thoroughly understand... and is still interested in THE ORIGINAL TOPIC (I knew that all hell was going to break loose on this subject so I decided to wait....and wait...and wait....) Ssssssoooooooo FINALLY !!!!!!

A. I am childfree!

B. Why:

1) In so many ways I am a child myself. I can be extremely selfish and spoiled.

2) I value my free time and being by myself.

3) I love sleeping in till 4 in the afternoon.

4) I love going wherever I want, whenever I want at the drop of a hat. It feels great to be able to jump on a plane at the spur of the moment to go visit a friend who lives faraway.

5) I'm not married. I DO NOT wish to be a single parent...I had to watch my mother struggle with raising 2 children on her own, and I have learned from her. She is so VERY proud of my decision.

6) I want to move back to Hawaii, finish my degree, and buy a house of my own....the rest will come in time. IF it happens...I can't predict the future.

7) I have enough responsibilities of my own and have a high- stress level. I KNOW I AM NOT READY! My cat drives me crazy enough.

8) I'm a big adrenaline junkie. I like to live on the edge. I ride motorcycles, which is a VERY dangerous sport. I have to worry about MY OWN LIFE, and my family worrying about MY LIFE...the last thing I need to be worrying about is how a little one is going to go on w/out me if I die.

9) I AM JUST NOT READY...and don't know if I ever will be! That is for The Man Upstairs to decide...Nobody else's opinion matters!!!!!!!!!!!



:thanx:

aussiepunkshocker
05-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Great reasons Mileia!

All of those except no 8 I relate to very much (-:

alisha101
05-15-2007, 11:17 PM
i'm child free for now, i'm 22. i don't feel ready to take on the responsibility of kids. one day in the future after i'm married then definitely. but for now i'm having too much fun being young.

xdamage
05-16-2007, 03:59 AM
ISome parents just don't seem to realize that their good intentions are actually trespasses and intrusions that they would not forgive if they got the same. You know how there are well-intended compliments that are actually annoying, condescending, and belittling, like,

...

Summed up: It's not the parenthood that bugs me, it's the egocentricism. Please realize that some things are not your domain.

Hatshepsut,

I think this post is far more about your real issue then the title of the thread is.

The problem is that everyone one of us on the planet has had the experience of living in the state of childfree, often for many years in to our adulthood. So I disagree completely with your notion that it's not in our domain. The big difference is those with children have experienced both domains, while you've experienced only one, which means that you are operating from a point of less information. It's a complete mistake to think of these states a or b because it's far more a case of you've experienced state a, and others have experienced state a + b.

However, I do understand how parents can come across as very annoying, going on and on about their own kids, and I still feel that way about it often, but with one big difference. I now see that they are not being condescending at all, they are being overly exhuberant, and that's a world of difference in terms of intent.

And just a point of enlightenment, MOO, Mothers Obsessed over their Offspring hardly sounds like a significant social problem. At worst it's a minor annoyance, but if our worse social problem is mothers loving their kids too much I'd sleep better at night. However the "entitlement" notion is more a problem with perception on your part.

Having children is a very significant part of life. If it wasn't so you wouldn't be here to write your original question. It's a big, although understandable, mistake to compare raising children with say, a job or a hobby; life exists on the planet because of the one thing, while careers and hobbies, art and relaxation come and go. One is deeply intertwined with our evolution as beings, the other is mostly social. So I think it's a big mistake when people who don't have kids compare their love for a thing or a hobby or even a career with their love for kids that they don't have. It's like a pre-pubscent kid thinking they understand sex because they have seen others go through the motions. The get it intellectually sort of, but they really don't get it the way someone does that is post pubscent gets it.

All that said, we live in a big world and not everyone is destined to be a parent. Many people will end up contributing to society in ways that are unique don't involve having kids. And even say if you have a burning passion to do something other then have kids, of course follow your heart. However I don't see that makes people with kids who are overly exhuberant condescending, I think that just makes them, well, human. It's so common because for many people after they have kids, they forgot to some degree how they felt before they had kids. And there is really no way to explain that with words, you either experience it or you don't, but you haven't yet, so you'll have to take it on faith that that those with kids do have a greater realm of experience then you do. Why not welcome their input? You might learn something useful.

p.s. and yes, before you write it, there are a lot of parents out there who it turns out shouldn't have had kids, but as with most things, we tend to hear about the bad news more then the good news. It's a big world and it happens that there are exceptions, and the abnormal; still, we shouldn't confuse the abnormal cases with the common case which is that most parents end up finding that they love their kids in ways that really can't imagine until after it happens.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 05:58 AM
So I think it's a big mistake when people who don't have kids compare their love for a thing or a hobby or even a career with their love for kids that they don't have. It's like a pre-pubscent kid thinking they understand sex because they have seen others go through the motions. The get it intellectually sort of, but they really don't get it the way someone does that is post pubscent gets it.


Oh here we go again. No that's not condescending at all is it?
There are many other relationships that exist other than parent and child and the love is just as significant.

I can't believe because you have been on both sides - childless and then after children that u think your opinion is more valid than ours because we have not had children.

Dude the question was who is childfree and why so wtf do u think you can contribute with your superior opinions.

Seriously when I see some people with their kids it acts like a contraceptive to me and this thread has done the same. I dont wanna ever sound like you.

PhillyDancer1982
05-16-2007, 06:20 AM
I am 24 years old, and I do not have any kids. I am not planning to have kids until I'm around 30. This is because I have a lot of career things to accomplish before then, such as getting further ahead in my career field, obtaining an MBA or Masters of Finance, etc. I'd also like to be more financially stable, and do things such as pay off my existing car loan and purchase a house. Besides the career/financial obvious things, I'd like a few more years to play the field, travel, go to concerts, etc. I still don't have the promiscuous streak out of me. :D Because I've seen a lot of imperfect family situations and I feel very lucky that both of my parents stuck together until my mother's untimely death, I am also looking to wait to have kids until after marriage.

That said, if I accidentally became pregnant...I would most likely keep the kid. Although I am not as stable/established as I would like to be in order to raise kids, I am fairly established enough that I could raise a kid if I cut some things out of my lavish lifestyle or worked harder. I generally do not believe in abortion. If I got pregnant and any friends/etc told me to get an abortion, I would probably take great offense in this...for I am not a naive teenager without education or solid ground to stand on by myself, but I am a 24-yr-old college graduate that works 2 jobs and has proven to be a very diligent worker(in the past, I dug myself out of more than my fair share of financial binds in a VERY short period of time).

asinglehungrygrasshopper
05-16-2007, 06:21 AM
Well, I don't want them, and people should in my opinion need a reason TO have children rather than TO NOT have children, but that's a bit pushy on my end.

I have two main reasons. The first is that stated many times here; I want my own life, I want to do my own thing, and children are not part of what I want or something that would be fulfilling for me. My other reason is that I have no guarantee that I would love a child that I have, and I would be a shitty mother if I didn't. As Hatshepsut said, people are people. There is no guarantee that a child that I raised would be a person that I liked or someone that I would so much as approve of. If I ended up raising an uptight puritanical sloppy thinker, I just wouldn't like them. Even if that sort of thing could be avoided by upbringing (and I really don't think there's any more assurance that I couldn't pop out a future fundy than there was that fundies couldn't pop out me), really if they just had certain personality traits, I wouldn't love them. And I'm OK with that. I don't like the idea of familial love; I think it's shallow and degrading. I don't understand why most people think it's bad for a significant other to only love you for your body but think that it's fine and expected for family members to only love you for your body (which is to say, the genetic code part of your body).

I am into participating in the child-rearing of others' spawn in a takes-a-village-to-raise-a-child way. I do hope to one day live in an intentional community and would be up for co-nurturing children that were not my own in the ways to which I am suited. I am not 100% opposed to adopting an older child who already had a personality, though it's not something I plan on. If a friend with children died or whatnot and they had a child which I already loved, who was of age to be understood and loved as a person, then I could see me becoming its legal guardian as a possibility if I were in a position to do so. It would be very circumstantially based, and absolutely not a possibility unless I too had a village to assist in raising the child.

And I just want to say how pissed off I am that I cannot get permanent or semi-permanent birth control, because doctors tell me that one day I'll change my mind. How incredibly fucking arrogant, and how very horribly imposing on my right of choice. We fought and must continue to fight for the right to end an unwanted pregnancy, but because we are treated as children who will one day grow up and want to pop out some babies like a good little woman, we de facto don't have the right to be more certain of that never happening. Luckily my male partner has a vasectomy, for which I am incredibly happy.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 06:24 AM
^^^^
so true.

PhillyDancer1982
05-16-2007, 06:31 AM
[QUOTE=jaizaine;1078207]I can't believe because you have been on both sides - childless and then after children that u think your opinion is more valid than ours because we have not had children.

Dude the question was who is childfree and why so wtf do u think you can contribute with your superior opinions.QUOTE]

OK I really haven't read many peoples' responses on this thread yet...but seeing the above quotes reminds me of something that I must assert.

My guy friend(a fellow SWer actually LOL) have agreed on something...we HATE it when young parents act condescending or act like they're "better than us" because they have a kid and we don't. They act as if none of our diverse life experiences count if we don't have a kid. Oh it doesn't matter that "Revolution" has an MBA, has worked for big-time politicans, etc...it doesn't matter that I've dug myself out of a financial situation that was literally more straining than that of being a single mom(trust me, I was petty enough to look into statistics of costs to prove this to myself LOL), that I've worked in eye-opening work environments such as strip clubs and they haven't, that I've had multiple close people in my life die all within 2006, etc...none of that matters. Wow "Revolution"(age 32) and I must be so naive and immature, just because we don't have a kid!

Example:

I'm at Lace Atlantic City, and a few girls and I are talking about one of those "Real Age" quizzes on the net. It tells you what your "relative age" is, based on your health and life experiences. Even though I was 23 at the time, my "real age" was 29.

Random hot girl walks over, says in a stuck-up sounding voice, "Do you have a kid?"

Dumb unasertive me says "No."

Random hot girl then says, "Then how can you say that you feel anything older than your age?" and flounces away before I can say anything.

In reality, (hot condescending girl was unaware of this) I had been through a lot more turmoil than the average young parent(she wasn't a young teenager, she was actually pretty well-off). I'm not getting into details here. But there were times when I actually lacked basic necessities and almost *envied* a lot of people, including the pregnant teens who at least had a support system and access to the necessities. Ohhhhh but none of that matters to that chick at Lace, simply because I miscarried twice instead of giving birth to a kid!

I'm not saying that anyone on here is or isn't acting condescending about having a kid...after all, I haven't read through many of the responses on this thread yet. I'm just saying that for the people that *are* condescending, it is downright annoying! I mean, you don't see me scoff and turn my nose up in the air at a 19-yr-old for having "children outside wedlock," no of course not, because that would be downright mean and snotty! So why is it okay for people to do the reverse?

PhillyDancer1982
05-16-2007, 06:33 AM
[QUOTE=jaizaine;1078207]I can't believe because you have been on both sides - childless and then after children that u think your opinion is more valid than ours because we have not had children.

Dude the question was who is childfree and why so wtf do u think you can contribute with your superior opinions.

OK I really haven't read many peoples' responses on this thread yet...but seeing the above quotes reminds me of something that I must assert.

My guy friend(a fellow SWer actually) and I have agreed on something...we HATE it when young parents act condescending or act like they're "better than us" because they have a kid and we don't. They act as if none of our diverse life experiences count if we don't have a kid. Oh it doesn't matter that "Revolution" has an MBA, has worked for big-time politicans, etc...it doesn't matter that I've dug myself out of a financial situation that was literally more straining than that of being a single mom(trust me, I was petty enough to look into statistics of costs to prove this to myself LOL), that I've worked in eye-opening work environments such as strip clubs and they haven't, that I've had multiple close people in my life die all within 2006, etc...none of that matters. Wow "Revolution"(age 32) and I must be so naive and immature, just because we don't have a kid!

Example:

I'm at Lace Atlantic City, and a few girls and I are talking about one of those "Real Age" quizzes on the net. It tells you what your "relative age" is, based on your health and life experiences. Even though I was 23 at the time, my "real age" was 29.

Random hot girl walks over, says in a stuck-up sounding voice, "Do you have a kid?"

Dumb unasertive me (at the time) says "Uh...no."

Random hot girl then says, "Then how can you say that you feel anything older than your age?", rolls her eyes snobbishly, and flounces away before I can say anything.

In reality, (hot condescending girl was unaware of this) I had been through a lot more turmoil than the average young parent(she wasn't a young teenager, she was actually pretty well-off). I'm not getting into details here. But there were times when I actually lacked basic necessities and almost *envied* a lot of people, including the pregnant teens who at least had a support system and access to the necessities. Ohhhhh but none of that matters to that chick at Lace, simply because I miscarried twice instead of giving birth to a kid!

I'm not saying that anyone on here is or isn't acting condescending about having a kid...after all, I haven't read through many of the responses on this thread yet. I'm just saying that for the people that *are* condescending, it is downright annoying! I mean, you don't see me scoff and turn my nose up in the air at a 19-yr-old for having "children outside wedlock," no of course not, because that would be downright mean and snotty! So why is it okay for people to do the reverse

EDIT: Sorry to write so much...but this topic of condescending parents is one that has really kinda outraged "Revolution" and I lately.

stripperMBA
05-16-2007, 06:39 AM
I am going to ignore all the parents obsessed with children and get back to the topic. I am childfree by choice. I have never liked children. Children are a smaller version of an adult with less boundaries. None the less I have never found them to be cute. Mental illness also runs in my family and I would worry that would be passed on. Financially thanks to dancing I have good stability, but the growing cost of raising kids would be to much for me. Money affords opportunity especially when one considers these days many parents must decide to send their kid to private school or move to a better school district. So a decent education plus college is something that I will never be able to afford. Many other people have told me "You will change you mind" or "You will love it once you have your own." But I do not believe the hype. Growing up in a poor Chicano neighborhood it was hard for anyone there to understand why I did not want kids. When the stress that mothers and fathers faced was a perfect example of why I did not want kids. As a child it seemed that all the parents around me were cranky, stressed, and barely making ends meet. They were overly nostalgic about their own childhoods and would always say,"These are the best years of your life." But I knew that I wanted to live and enjoy my adulthood so I opted not to have kids so that I could do that. I have so much freedom and I love my life so much that I am happy I am not burdened with children.

xdamage
05-16-2007, 06:52 AM
Oh here we go again. No that's not condescending at all is it?
There are many other relationships that exist other than parent and child and the love is just as significant.


Jaiz, your coming at this from the point of view of someone that does not have kids, therefore you're experience about that aspect of this is lacking. This is a matter of fact. It's like talking to a virgin about sex, where your experience is that of a virgin, and so you really don't and can't grasp the intensity of sex, you only have an intellectual idea of it. The definition of condescending does not mean when people tell you information you are incorrect or completely lacking in and that makes you feel bad. It's not a matter of talking down to you, it's a matter of fact that you don't have the experience of having a child, so you don't yet grasp the intensity of it. If you feel condescended on it's because you've been knocked off a faulty pedestal you shouldn't place yourself on. There is nothing wrong with not knowing something or not experiencing something, but there is something wrong when you saying that the love you experience with others is the same as that as what you'd experience with a child. You don't have the experience to know that, no matter how much you want to believe you do.

For a lot of things in life, we have to say "I don't know", and this is another one, "I don't know what it is like to have kids". You can say that and still make the childless choice, and still love others, and your hobbies, and work etc. The only thing you can't say is that those loves are equal or will be as significant to you as the love for your child. You won't know that until/if you have a child, and if you ever did, the point is you may well be surprised to find that how many multi-hundred million year old instincts and feelings kick in that you never knew you had.




I can't believe because you have been on both sides - childless and then after children that u think your opinion is more valid than ours because we have not had children.


Nobody said the childed option is more valid. I think this is your problem with interpretation, not with what's being said. All that anyone has said is that when they were childless, they didn't really grasp what it would be like to have a child until they did, after which their perception changed. If that threatens your sense of conviction about your choice that's your issue, not mine.




Dude the question was who is childfree and why so wtf do u think you can contribute with your superior opinions.


The title was that, the actual question from the OP was more involved in that it had a lot more to do with how she felt about people who do have kids and how they made her feel.



Seriously when I see some people with their kids it acts like a contraceptive to me and this thread has done the same. I dont wanna ever sound like you.

I really can't relate at all to the notion that I wouldn't want kids because other people with them were being overly exhuberant in their love for theirs. Quite honestly that makes no rationale sense to me at all. Nobody is forcing you to have kids or demanding it talking down to you when they share why they changed their mind about being childless. They are however saying they learned something new that they didn't know before the choice. If receiving info from people that have greater experience pisses you off then I certainly wouldn't want to think or sound like that either.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 07:03 AM
I haven't even decided to be childfree which I said in my original post so this has nothing to do with strength of convictions.

Anyway the point is that some people will choose to remain childfree for the rest of their lives and you are arguing that they cannot make a valid statement on this issue because they have not experienced having children.

That is complete bullshit. Do you get it that some people have better things to do with their lives than procreate? It's not the be all and end all of achievements. In fact even idiots manage it.

Im through arguing with u. You will not accept that any view besides your own has any merit.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 07:16 AM
Jaiz, your coming at this from the point of view of someone that does not have kids, therefore you're experience about that aspect of this is lacking. This is a matter of fact. It's like talking to a virgin about sex, where your experience is that of a virgin, and so you really don't and can't grasp the intensity of sex, you only have an intellectual idea of it.

If that threatens your sense of conviction about your choice that's your issue, not mine.


:rotfl: :soapbox:


And stripperMBA Im gonna follow your lead and ignore posts from POO's.

xdamage
05-16-2007, 07:47 AM
Anyway the point is that some people will choose to remain childfree for the rest of their lives and you are arguing that they cannot make a valid statement on this issue because they have not experienced having children.


Again, nobody is saying they can't make a valid choice, only that they actually can't know what they are missing through intellect alone. That doesn't make their choice invalid, it's just a factual statement.

BTW it is is true that some people will remain childfree their whole lives, but it's fairly hard though to associate that with the replies here since so many of the dancers are in their 20s and 30s and people's feelings tend to change. It's not like we have a lot of feedback in this thread from those in their 40s through 50s that have stuck with the choice. I was quite certain I wasn't going to have kids in my 20s either; I didn't have the crystal ball to see my own future at the time though.

The question of the topic would actually be far more interesting if it was also broken down by age groups as it's easy to make the choice when one is in their teens or 20s. And if someone changes their mind later in life, that doesn't mean they have suddenly joined the condescending group or the blind group, it just means that they changed. It also doesn't mean that they suddenly became stupid or that they no longer have anything "better" to do with their lives.




That is complete bullshit. Do you get it that some people have better things to do with their lives than procreate? It's not the be all and end all of achievements. In fact even idiots manage it.



Apparently you did not read where I wrote:

"Many people will end up contributing to society in ways that are unique don't involve having kids. And even say if you have a burning passion to do something other then have kids, of course follow your heart."

However note unlike you, I didn't say these people have something better to do with their lives then procreate", just something different to do. If there is a problem with snobbery here, I'd say your expressing it by saying that those who remain childfree do it because they have something "better to do" then other people. Boo on that. Or the other way around, those who "procreate" do it because they have less important goals then others. Again big boo on that.

I think it's fine not to chose to have kids, and even very cool when people contribute something significant to society (with or without kids, doesn't matter to me), but I don't think I was "better" when I had no kids. I ended up doing many of the same things before I had kids, although I had to trade somethings off. Better though? No. Just different. Whatever contributions I leave behind to society the future generation my judge as having been "better" but otherwise I'm guessing that the only one who will think better or not of what I have done is just me, in my own head. And I'm certainly not going to look down on other people who make other choices (child or not) and say hey I was better for that. It's just different.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 07:55 AM
Ok "better to do" was not a fair comment.

When it comes down to it we all have mothers so we are lucky that our mothers chose to have children.

I am not saying I will never have children, I am undecided. I was just pissed off that the original question could not be stuck too. The other type of arguments could have been a thread on their own about the pros and cons of having children. I was personally just really interested to hear why other women had chosen not to have children.

This issue is very hard for me because I really dislike children and I hate the fact that I dislike children. When I am out in public and I see one I get annoyed. I hate how they are noisy, demanding and filthy (the way they eat especially). For me this thread was important because I have always felt guilty about the fact that I dislike children and wondered what was wrong with me. So when I saw this thread I was relieved that other women had similar views and that not everyone gushes over babies.

I hope I don't always feel like this about babies and children for the record because it is currently affecting my friendship with a very close friend who has just had children.

rozz
05-16-2007, 07:57 AM
Alright, the thread seems to be coming back around to the original topic, so I'll bite.

I'm childfree. My reasons are as follows,

1) I don't like kids. That thing that most people seem to possess that makes them go all googly for babies? I don't have it. Children make me feel uncomfortable and tense.

2) I don't want to be pregnant. I don't hunger to feel "new life" budding inside me (ew). I don't want to pass my genes onto a new generation. They've fucked me enough as is.

3) I want freedom. I want the freedom to travel, work, move, and change whenever I want. I want sex on the kitchen floor and drunken nights out. I like my "me" time.


I've been told many times that my feelings will change. I don't anticipate that happening. Let others breed. My uterus will remain unoccupied.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 08:00 AM
Children make me feel uncomfortable and tense.


Oh wow Im so glad u wrote this I get the exact same feeling. I cannot relax when a child is around. I was at a cafe the other day and there was a woman with 2 small children sitting next to us and I felt uneasy and just wanting to finish my meal and leave as quickly as possible. Everytime the child made a noise it was like nails on a blackboard and I got increasingly tense and irritated. Then the baby vomited all over the mother and I was officially put off my food.

I am so glad there are other women like me out there.

xdamage
05-16-2007, 08:45 AM
When it comes down to it we all have mothers so we are lucky that our mothers chose to have children.


Ironic, but yes, exactly.



This issue is very hard for me because I really dislike children and I hate the fact that I dislike children. When I am out in public and I see one I get annoyed. I hate how they are noisy, demanding and filthy (the way they eat especially). For me this thread was important because I have always felt guilty about the fact that I dislike children and wondered what was wrong with me. So when I saw this thread I was relieved that other women had similar views and that not everyone gushes over babies.

I hope I don't always feel like this about babies and children for the record because it is currently affecting my friendship with a very close friend who has just had children.

I'd say there is absolutely nothing wrong for you feeling this way. Many if not most guys also feel this way, and I believe it's very normal from my experiences and everything I've read for women to feel this way as well. From what I'm reading, a lot of that desire to nurture babies that are not our own is just socialization training. I've also been reading some fascinatiing info on child abuse, and it's quite an interesting picture when you break that down into children abused by their own parents vs children abused by step parents or other 3rd parties. It's a dramatic difference and I bet you can guess which way.

In a way though you are making my point for me Jainz. Putting aside the truly abusive and fucked up (and hey, sometimes those types want kids - ACK!), I'd guess you probably won't feel like nurturing one until it's your genetic own. How we feel about babies in general (other people's kids) just doesn't give us much insight into what is going happen inside our heads and emotions when it comes to our own. Like I said, hundreds of millions of years of instinct kick in when it comes to your own (again, sans those who are emotionally or mentally ill of course). Other kids still often still bother the fuck out of me and I avoid them, but
my own... that they are kids is really a big secondary to that I see them as, well, I don't have the words... in a way like a part of myself, like the boundaries between us are indefinably fuzzy in a special way that I feel towards no other kids on the planet.

Enjoy your childless state for as long as you want of course, and I certainly don't think you should feel judgemental toward yourself because you don't have an urge to play with dolls, or like other kids, etc. I really do believe if you take the social training out of the picture you'd see most people feel similar.

PhillyDancer1982
05-16-2007, 02:12 PM
This is a matter of fact. It's like talking to a virgin about sex, where your experience is that of a virgin, and so you really don't and can't grasp the intensity of sex, you only have an intellectual idea of it.

OMG that is the type of vibes and reactions that I used to get when I *was* a virgin! :-[ When I was a loser in middle school and had never been on a date before, people didn't want to discuss their dating life with me(this was before people in my grade started having sex) and assumed that I wouldn't understand, simply because I hadn't been on a date before. I got similar attitudes from people around the time that I was 16, when some of my peers were starting to have sex and I hadn't yet(heh that changed very soon after).

I'm sorry Xdamage, but what you said just brought me back to those dreadful years when my classmates would act like I was "naive" simply because I hadn't dated or had sex yet.

By the way...when I finally *did* start dating and having sex, I didn't feel that much "different as a person" or more experienced. In terms of confidence and self-esteem, yeah I felt better...I was finally taken seriously by guys, and not just dissed for being flat-chested, whoo-hooo! But I still had the same opinions and outlooks. Dating/sex for me wasn't an eye-opening experience, as much as it was "opening the flood gates" so to speak(LOL I stole that exact quote from Koty, who I devirginized).

It is true that someone doesn't completely know about kids until they raise one themselves, but I still kinda feel a similar vibe as I did from my classmates, back in middle/high school when they acted as if I wouldn't "understand" anything about dating or sex. I hate those old memories. :(

Dottie Rebel
05-16-2007, 02:17 PM
Ok, I was gonna go for good, but it looks like there is some hope here. PLEASE: Let's just ignore him! Please! He's loving the validation. Let's just take this thread back and ignore anyone who doesn't want to contribute in a meaningful way.

PhillyDancer1982
05-16-2007, 02:18 PM
This is a bit off-topic(although there's already been a few tangents already here lol), but...I've stated before that I don't want to have kids now, but I definitely wouldn't mind having kids in a few years, once I'm more established and become a homeowner. I also said that if I did accidentally get pregnant, that I would have the kid. So hypothetically speaking, I hate, I really HATE it when condescending people try to tell me to "get an abortion." It is annoying, especially since I consider myself to be fairly established(I'm not as established as I'd like to be to have kids, but I think I'm much better suited than say, a 16-yr-old high schooler who still lives at home with Mom-n-Dad and doesn't even have a part-time job!). It hurts. It is annoying. It implies that although I've come a looooong way financially/career-wise/etc, that they don't think I'm "good enough" yet. Especially when said pro-abortion people HAVE kids themselves, it's almost as if they're saying that they know they can handle raising kids, but they don't think I can "handle" doing so. This situation happened to a guy friend of mine that was facing a pregnancy scare/rumor. It was annoying how people told him to convince his girl to get an abortion. OK that's my vent LOL. Take it or leave it.

Mily
05-16-2007, 02:28 PM
I would like to add that I have a 2- year old nephew who I of course, love dearly. I fall to pieces when I see him and get to have him all to myself for the day. I spoil him rotten!!!! I am a very good Auntie. BUT I can only handle him for so long. By the end of the day, I have migraine headaches and the complete jitters. I am so relieved and ready to give him back to my parents or my brother at the end of the day!!! He is such a handful!!!....But he is the love and light of my life right now. Having this experience of being an Auntie has only clarified my feelings about being happily childfree, and I still feel the same, if not stronger about it. It may not be the same as being an actual mother, but my nephew is still my blood. So this kind of stems off of what PhillyDancer1982 is saying about her opinions not changing after losing her virginity. I'm even more confident in my decision about being childfree.:)

Lysondra
05-16-2007, 04:00 PM
:rotfl: :soapbox:


And stripperMBA Im gonna follow your lead and ignore posts from POO's.

Fathers in the childfree kingdom are called 'DUH's.

Funny, innit?

xdamage
05-16-2007, 05:37 PM
OMG that is the type of vibes and reactions that I used to get when I *was* a virgin! :-[

Interesting story PhillyD - obviously that was not the intent, but you expressed yourself very well. Understood.

stripperMBA
05-16-2007, 05:40 PM
[QUOTE=Mileia777;1077848]ANYWAY!!!
4) I love going wherever I want, whenever I want at the drop of a hat. It feels great to be able to jump on a plane at the spur of the moment to go visit a friend who lives faraway.))
I love traveling too which is so much easier without kids. When ever I travel it makes me thankful that I have the freedom to do so. And Jaizaine I get really annoyed by kids too especially on a plane. Not everyone wants to be subjected to ear piercing screams on a plane for a few hours. Cats and dogs are enough kids for me. My cat will never get pregnant. she cannot take my car on a joyride, and best of all she is very affordable.

stripperMBA
05-16-2007, 05:42 PM
Fathers in the childfree kingdom are called 'DUH's.

Funny, innit?

:laughing: :rotfl:

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 06:24 PM
What does DUH stand for LM? hehe.

VenusGoddess
05-16-2007, 06:27 PM
I have a friend who is married (for 7 or 8 years now) and who is childless. She and her hubby have absolutely no desire to have kids...why? Because they enjoy on the spot traveling...splurging relentlessly on themselves. She very honestly said that they were way to selfish to ever have kids. She just got her tubes tied (and he clipped) a week or so ago.

If you do not want kids, that's fine. It's a personal choice and I do know a few women who didn't want kids, became preggers and resented the baby for years. Not a good situation for anyone. I think it's great to know that if you don't want kids, to not have them.

PhaedrusZ
05-16-2007, 07:04 PM
I'll add one more male viewpoint here, as a male who has never wanted to have children. I mention every now and then in a few of my posts here that I have a medical problem. The same problem which eventually ended the lives of singers Johnny Cash and Waylon Jennings.

My mother had this disease as did her mother. So I've been aware I could pass this on, genetically, since my late teens. This is fully 50% of the reason I did not ever want to have children. I wasn't diagnosed myself until several years after my mother passed. And partially due to the fact she was nearly forty when I was born, she passed when I was a "thirty-something."

I also knew she very much desired a grandchild. So, being an only child, I felt very, very guilty about never getting married and having at least one child. The guilt over this finally subsided about three or four years after her passing. But I've never much perceived myself as being suited to either being a parent or, for that matter, to be married, considering the rather large amounts of time of "alone" time I crave. And both getting married and having a child to please my mother would have been two of the worst mistakes I could have made in this life.

Embyr
05-16-2007, 07:17 PM
^^ wow. thank you for adding that, perhaps it'll pacify some people that needed a non-parental male pov.

i'll add another. My ex with whom I'll credit getting me into motorcycles actually had a vasectomy- he did not want children, and couldn't justify having a child and leading a "risky" lifestyle (the man was actually such a cautious rider it was ridiculous)... the point was that he could, supposedly, be carsplat at any second and leave his child fatherless. He had 3 bikes and motorcycling was his life... personally I think he was too egocentric to involve another human life in his, but that's 1.) beside the point, and 2.) why he's an ex! :D

xdamage
05-16-2007, 07:24 PM
When I was younger I did not have the benefit of any money to go to college, but I was bright, so I worked full time to pay for my college time. I was endlessly busy between work and school full time. I had absolutely no plans or desire to have children for various reasons already stated, plus on top of all of that I was teaching myself computer programming as a hobby and writing some software for a company as a consulting gig. Then I ended up with a lovely woman who also didn't want to have any kids, until one day ... things changed for her, she started feeling an overwhelming desire to have children. At some point she ended up pregnant, and while I dreaded the extra responsibility right up until the very last moment, then... there I was holding my just born baby girl in my arms, and every fucking thing I thought I was going to feel and had felt changed in an instant. And ... I had no fucking clue I would feel that way about my child. It was as if I was holding in my arms the most precious person ever in the world, and she needed my love and protection. Oh yes, it was painfully difficult to give up sleep, and work even more hours, but I regret none of it. I would have chosen to be childfree, but life dealt me a different hand, and I had no idea how much I'd end up loving that hand that I had rebelled against up until that point.

Mily
05-16-2007, 07:32 PM
^^^I think you need to start a thread about people that didn't want to have kids at first and then changed their minds and had them...SERIOUSLY. I'm not trying to be a heartless bitch, but you're just not getting it, Dude./:O


ANYWAY!!!! Any other ladies out there childfree? We'd love to hear your reasons!:)

Mily
05-16-2007, 07:44 PM
What does DUH stand for LM? hehe.


Yes, LM what does it stand for...do tell!!;D

xdamage
05-16-2007, 07:46 PM
^^^I think you need to start a thread about people that didn't want to have kids at first and then changed their minds and had them...SERIOUSLY. I'm not trying to be a heartless bitch, but you're just not getting it, Dude./:O


I wasn't entirely clear. I did not choose to have a child. My S.O. wanted one, I did not, I wanted to be childless. I never said we agreed to it. It happened. But... regardless, it remains fact that what I thought I was going to feel ended up not being the reality. In effect, I was ignorant until I had more experience.

Lysondra
05-16-2007, 07:47 PM
Heehee... it doesn't, this one.


Duhddy
A term for a father with bad parenting skills. A male breeder.
Duh
Slack-jawed, clueless male breeder.

It stands for the stupid look on their face when they talk about their children.

:dunce: Duuuhhhhhh...

Which is kinda fitting here.

Mily
05-16-2007, 07:51 PM
I wasn't entirely clear. I did not choose to have a child. My S.O. wanted one, I did not, I wanted to be childless. I never said we agreed to it. It happened. But... regardless, it remains fact that what I thought I was going to feel ended up not being the reality.

Cool. Why don't you start a new thread about that, then?:)

Mily
05-16-2007, 07:53 PM
Heehee... it doesn't, this one.



It stands for the stupid look on their face when they talk about their children.

:dunce: Duuuhhhhhh...

Which is kinda fitting here.


LOL!!! VERY CUTE...I like it!;D

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 07:58 PM
Heehee... it doesn't, this one.



It stands for the stupid look on their face when they talk about their children.

:dunce: Duuuhhhhhh...

Which is kinda fitting here.

LOL. I know that look very well,. The worst is guys who have broke up with the mother of their child and they try to use the kid to pick up!
I went on a date with this guy and all he talked about was how much he loved the child and how the child meant everything to him. I mean that's great but what boring conversation for a date. It also was good that I found that out early coz I like to be number one in the guys life. That's why I would never date a guy who had a kid with someone else.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 08:00 PM
Cool. Why don't you start a new thread about that, then?:)

:thanx:

carolina6
05-16-2007, 11:02 PM
I'm 25 and I don't have any kids yet. I was married at one time and we decided that it wouldn't be good to have a kid yet since I was still in school. Good thing since we got divorced. I have a boyfriend now whom I would love to have kids with eventually, but I have a lot of things I want to do first, like go to law school, or at least have a fulfilling career for a couple years (I love dancing but I want another career eventually).

I'm grateful almost every day that I've been smart enough (and occasionally lucky enough) to have not gotten pregnant and never been so overcome by emotion that I thought it would be a good idea to get pregnant. I know that someday I want kids, but not for at least another 3 years. I really want a dog someday also, but at this point, I don't even own my own home, so I don't want to move a dog around from city to city. When I have a dog then maybe I can have a kid.

I also have nothing against anyone who never wants to have them. It's a personal choice, and I think that if you suspect you don't want children or won't be a good parent, then you shouldn't do it!

LilyLove
05-16-2007, 11:27 PM
I wish more people would choose to be childfree. I can't believe some of the things I hear and see from people who had children even without wanting them. I have a male friend with a 5 year old daughter. He never wanted her, and neither did the mother. Then, the mother was diagnosed with an illness that left her unable to care for the child. So, my 24 year old friend was stuck with her all by himself. And its terrible for the poor girl. The child does not even know her alphabet. He leaves her upstairs while he gets raging drunk downstairs. He abandons her with his roommate while he drunk drives to bars.

Just an example that's close to my heart for why the pressures to procreate in this society need to STOP.

I'm so supportive of the childfree, and I think resources need to be allocated to educate people on the childfree lifestyle. I mean, we spend tons of money on the poor unwanted children that go into foster care. The world would be a better place if every child brought into the world was done so with love and hope for the future.

jaizaine
05-16-2007, 11:40 PM
^^
I agree with u there. It's very unfortunate for the children who never asked to be born to these parents.

My friend is an alcoholic and she told me that she left her 2 and a half year old and 6 month old at home alone last week while she went to get some wine and forgot to shut the door and when she came home her 2 and a half year old daughter was standing outside in the middle of the road.

carolina6
05-16-2007, 11:47 PM
I saw some horrific things while I was a social worker. There were so many beautiful children born into circumstances that I wouldn't put my worst enemy into. A little girl who got a pot of boiling water dumped on her because she was crying. The little boy born with crack cocaine in his system because his mother "didn't want him anyway". The countless boys and girls who were beaten, molested, and neglected. It broke my heart, and I went home crying every day. We did the best we could for these children in the foster care system, but shuffling them around from home to home is no way to raise a child. Their foster parents cared about them a great deal, yes, and gave up a lot to raise them... but at the end of the day, these kids got shoved back in the system to be put somewhere else if the birth parents weren't "satisfied" with how things were. Very few of these children are adopted, so they spend their childhoods moving from place to place, then get kicked out when they turn 18. There is no one there for them when they face the hard decision of adulthood. So many of these children need the love of a full-time parent, yet they don't get it because no one wants to adopt these children with "troubled pasts".

Why, oh why, would I bring a child into this world when I could take home someone who is already here, needing love and care just as my own child would? How could I live with myself knowing that I am adding to the overcrowding in my home state when there are countless children who have no home?



Thank you for that post. I've always been thankful for people who give their time and love as foster parents and adoptive parents. Your post reminded me that I should seriously consider adoption when it comes to the time when I might want children.