View Full Version : Who here is Childfree, and why?
Pages :
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
[
8]
9
10
11
12
Dirty Ernie
05-17-2007, 12:28 AM
I've been reluctant to respond to this thread, even though it is here in The Lounge, because, as a childfree male, I feel I lack proper perspective. Society places no stigma on me for my choice and would even allow me to be both a father and childfree as long as I mail a check every month. Until this thread I was just a "guy without kids" but now I have a more representative term and will identify myself as a childfree male.
My reasons are similar to many on here and my inherent resolve not to procreate was instrumental in ending my relationship with a woman I loved deeply and wanted to marry. I'll spare you the gory details.
[ deleted response to other posts in an effort to maintain thread integrity]
Lysondra
05-17-2007, 12:29 AM
^ This is so accurate and so depressing. :(
Thanks for your viewpoint, Ernie.
carolina6
05-17-2007, 01:39 AM
And I just want to say how pissed off I am that I cannot get permanent or semi-permanent birth control, because doctors tell me that one day I'll change my mind. How incredibly fucking arrogant, and how very horribly imposing on my right of choice. We fought and must continue to fight for the right to end an unwanted pregnancy, but because we are treated as children who will one day grow up and want to pop out some babies like a good little woman, we de facto don't have the right to be more certain of that never happening. Luckily my male partner has a vasectomy, for which I am incredibly happy.
I am not sure about the procedure involved in wanting to have your tubes tied, and any differences between the regulations in different countries, but have your doctors denied your requests to have your tubes tied?
I was going to jump in and say, "Well they have to ask you a ton of questions to make sure that you are certain just to protect themselves from lawsuits when women who aren't as sure as yourself get their tubes tied and then sue because they changed their mind and now can't have kids." BUT, if you have requested the procedure and have been denied although you are certain you want to remain childfree, that is obviously wrong. It is necessary for doctors to ask you many questions to determine your will to have the procedure (the same as if you were going in for a BA), but if you were actually denied, that is a different story.
Lysondra
05-17-2007, 02:50 AM
^ I was denied both the Mirena IUD and Essure procedure... at least 8 times. I used to ask EVERY time I went in for my Depo. EVERY.
PhillyDancer1982
05-17-2007, 05:13 AM
When I was younger I did not have the benefit of any money to go to college, but I was bright, so I worked full time to pay for my college time. I was endlessly busy between work and school full time. I had absolutely no plans or desire to have children for various reasons already stated, plus on top of all of that I was teaching myself computer programming as a hobby and writing some software for a company as a consulting gig. Then I ended up with a lovely woman who also didn't want to have any kids, until one day ... things changed for her, she started feeling an overwhelming desire to have children. At some point she ended up pregnant, and while I dreaded the extra responsibility right up until the very last moment, then... there I was holding my just born baby girl in my arms, and every fucking thing I thought I was going to feel and had felt changed in an instant. And ... I had no fucking clue I would feel that way about my child. It was as if I was holding in my arms the most precious person ever in the world, and she needed my love and protection. Oh yes, it was painfully difficult to give up sleep, and work even more hours, but I regret none of it. I would have chosen to be childfree, but life dealt me a different hand, and I had no idea how much I'd end up loving that hand that I had rebelled against up until that point.
Thank you, Xdamage. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I WOULD NOT HAVE AN ABORTION IF I ENDED UP ACCIDENTALLY PREGNANT!!! You summed up very nicely the anti-abortion feelings that I have. :)
Like I said before...I don't have kids, and I'm purposely waiting until around 30 to have kids so that I can focus on things like hobbies, career, etc. I can always have kids later(lol unless I die within the next couple of years). But if I accidentally became pregnant, why should I have an abortion? >:( Anyone who urged my guy friend to tell his girl to get an abortion is WHACKED and insensitive.
There. I vented again. LOL. What an adventurous morning this is going to be.
ExoticEngineer
05-17-2007, 05:23 PM
So, I came into this thread WAY late, and skipped over much of the BS drama, but wanted to comment on the ORIGINAL subject...
I never wanted kids. But I got pregnant, and I did what was right for ME...gave birth and became a mom.
Now enough about that, I do not want to have another kid...ever. I watch these moms with multiple children, and shake my head in confusion. It works for them, great, that personally is my nightmare! And so many of my old friends have three, four, FIVE kids! And they say, you need to have another one! He needs a little brother or sister! BLAH!
In fact I know one woman who jsut keeps pumping them out, proud that she is a baby making machine, pissed because she has no life other than cleaning up vomit, diapers and cooking, while her kids run around like little animals without any guidance or control. To me, that's a shame.
I understand not wanting to have kids. Totally do. And I think it's a responsible decision.
So, kudos to you women who have made the choice, after all, it is yours to make. And I think it's a far better one than being one of those moms who doesn't want to be a mom.
sexystephani
05-17-2007, 05:32 PM
Im childfree. I guess I havent met Mr Right yet hopefully someday although Im still not 100% sure I want kids I guess I should make up my mind.
So, I came into this thread WAY late, and skipped over much of the BS drama, but wanted to comment on the ORIGINAL subject...
I never wanted kids. But I got pregnant, and I did what was right for ME...gave birth and became a mom.
Now enough about that, I do not want to have another kid...ever. I watch these moms with multiple children, and shake my head in confusion. It works for them, great, that personally is my nightmare! And so many of my old friends have three, four, FIVE kids! And they say, you need to have another one! He needs a little brother or sister! BLAH!
In fact I know one woman who jsut keeps pumping them out, proud that she is a baby making machine, pissed because she has no life other than cleaning up vomit, diapers and cooking, while her kids run around like little animals without any guidance or control. To me, that's a shame.
I understand not wanting to have kids. Totally do. And I think it's a responsible decision.
So, kudos to you women who have made the choice, after all, it is yours to make. And I think it's a far better one than being one of those moms who doesn't want to be a mom.
Thanks for that post, ExoticEngineer. You sounded just like my mommy. :P
kittenkat
05-17-2007, 10:24 PM
Thank you, Xdamage. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I WOULD NOT HAVE AN ABORTION IF I ENDED UP ACCIDENTALLY PREGNANT!!! You summed up very nicely the anti-abortion feelings that I have.
By all means, it's your choice to have or not have kids, to have or not have an abortion. That said, you can be against abortion for yourself and not be against abortion as a choice for others to decide for themselves.
Anyhoo, yes- lots of people have kids, and some are lukewarm until they're born, but become great parents. Others never develop the parental feelings for one reason or the other- I spent years volunteering for various services for abused kids. I think it's wrong to assume that "people change their mind when te baby's born." Many people don't change their mind- in fact, they turn to abusing the kids. If parental instinct is genetic, then lots of people are missing the genetic boat. The foster care and social services are up to their eyeballs trying to deal with neglected and abused kids.
Again, if you want kids- have them. If you don't, don't. On the other hand, to question others' desire to have or not have children is disrespectful- and I also find it rude after a certain point to come into a child-free thread and be "I love teh baby and my experience as a mother!!!!!" to be disrespectful, just as a child-free person going "I can't stand kids and y'all crazy bitches!" in a mommy thread.
christian211
05-17-2007, 11:47 PM
^ I was denied both the Mirena IUD and Essure procedure... at least 8 times. I used to ask EVERY time I went in for my Depo. EVERY.
Why do you think you were denied both? They're not perm, I don't think, def not the mirena! I would think it would be ideal for a doc to give you that considering your feelings and what not? I know over here in the states, in mine, MA, they encourage the mirena and paraguard. Just want to know if there is any medical notion to back this up. And I wholeheartedly state that if you plan on being childfree for 5-10+ yrs. than dr.'s should offer the most appropriate bc method available. That's not right at all what you had to go through....
Lysondra
05-18-2007, 12:11 AM
They said no to both because 'You don't have any kids and you might want some'. Mirena has like, a .001% chance of causing perm. sterilization... and that's all they care about.
carolina6
05-18-2007, 12:58 AM
That's crazy. I don't know anything about mirena, but if they only give it to women who NEVER want to have kids, then what's the point of it? You might as well actually have your tubes tied. It has to be based on money. They probably don't get enough money or kickbacks for them, so they won't suggest them and discourage you from getting it.
You should get pregnant and then sue them for not giving it to you :) I would be livid. I'd be asking my doctor if he or she was planning on bringing up the child I might get pregnant with. Ugh.
Lysondra
05-18-2007, 01:03 AM
^ Someone did that in England. Sued a doctor for full cost of her baby's life when her abortion failed.
Anyway, they still say 'you might change your mind' about Mirena AND tubal AND essure.... it's not about kickbacks... it's about them covering their asses if you become perm. sterilized and change your mind.
flickad
05-18-2007, 01:39 AM
^ Someone did that in England. Sued a doctor for full cost of her baby's life when her abortion failed.
Anyway, they still say 'you might change your mind' about Mirena AND tubal AND essure.... it's not about kickbacks... it's about them covering their asses if you become perm. sterilized and change your mind.
There have been a couple of Australian cases also, both of which succeeded. CES v Superclinics is the one I remember the name of.
kittenkat
05-18-2007, 04:53 AM
Yup, I can second what lilith is saying. Trying to get sterilized is maddening if you've never had kids. I'm over 30, and I still have a hard time finding docs wiling to do the procedure.
ExoticEngineer
05-18-2007, 08:22 AM
This thread is such great timing. I reminded my hubby last night "Remember hunny, 32nd birthday, I want my tubes tied and my uterus lining removed, K? Don't forget!"
No more kids, no more period, happy woman! ;D
xdamage
05-18-2007, 09:40 AM
Others never develop the parental feelings for one reason or the other- I spent years volunteering for various services for abused kids. I think it's wrong to assume that "people change their mind when te baby's born." Many people don't change their mind- in fact, they turn to abusing the kids. If parental instinct is genetic, then lots of people are missing the genetic boat. The foster care and social services are up to their eyeballs trying to deal with neglected and abused kids.
Genetic behaviors are a matter of statistical norms of large groups of people over long periods of time. Genes are chemicals, delicate, and not guarantees of outcomes. There are always exceptions, whether it's the extremely tall, extremely short, extremely intelligent, developmentally disabled, exceptionally loving, exceptionally cruel, the personality disordered, the mentally ill, etc. and so on that arise in large groups. My comments were assuming that most of the people in this forum are reasonably within the norm, but perhaps some are not.
Also it turns out that vast majority of child abuse is committed by step parents vs biological parents, but it does happen of course. Personally I don't let myself be paralyzed by fear or focus too much on the exceptions because that's what tends to make the news, but the news rarely talks about the more mundane (in this case, the vast majority who are not abused).
Also human's are biological creatures, and their health and thinking is easily modified by chemicals including endless medications including anti-depressants, anti-anxiety meds, psychotropics, testorone, estrogen, and many other that affect peoples feelings, thinking, and behaviors. We live in a culture were many people, particularly younger people, are influenced by many mind-altering drugs, and it's just common sense then that we know that their normal genetics mental development and behaviors are affected. In other words, once drugs get thrown into the mix that doesn't disprove that humans don't have a genetic tendency to love their own kids for the same reason that people who use drugs often behave different then the vast majority of others in many other ways as well.
None of that is to say people should choose to have kids, but it is to say that when I said people's normal tendency to love their own kids is genetic I absolutely meant it, it's been well proven to be the case by socio-biologists, and evolutionary-psychologists, and the exceptions don't disprove that. Genetists expect those variations in large sets of people.
Simple reword "people change their mind when te baby's born." which is an absolute to "most people change their mind when te baby's born." and it's understood then that there are going to be exceptions.
Paintbaby
05-18-2007, 11:02 AM
Interesting. If you are going to throw that out there, I'd like to see the science to back this up. Because offering a personal opinion does not take the place of scientific data, and arguing as if it does is disingenuous. I for one do not believe that love is genetic, and in fact is the work of neuro-chemicals. Love is not passed on genetically, like blue eyes are. From an evolutionary standpoint, it does make sense to protect one's offspring in order to propegate one's genetic line--and love naturally grows from that. But the truth is, the fetishization and romanticisation of babies and motherhood and the appearance of the "moo" and the "duh" are relatively new social phenomenons. There is nothing unique about babies--nothing at all. Billions have been born. If someone wants to be a parent, more power to them, I say, and I hope they do a great job of it.
Still trying to understand why you are pushing so hard about the "changing your mind once it's born cuz it's your own" line, though--that really seems to fit into the mindset of the romanticization and sentimentalization of birth and motherhood. Plus, you are not a woman--so how would you know? You've never been faced with carrying an unwanted pregnancy, worrying about what you were going to do once a baby that you don't even want is born. Obviously, not every parent changes their mind once the baby is born. A few kids I'm sure, grow up with, if not abusive, then certainly indifferent parents. You are also speaking form the point of view as a father, not a mother. Birth and parenthood are different experiences for mothers and fathers. Socially expected and acted behaviour may get judged as "the norm", but that has nothing to do with what actual reality might be for many women. Is their reality to be judged as somehow deviant because it doesn't fit into YOUR soft-focus world?
Not every woman wants a baby, and that is not abnormal. Because women have choices today that we did not have even 50 years ago, it isn't automatically assumed that one has to become a mother--some of us choose to do other meaningful things with our lives. And it isn't for you to judge the meaning of those things as lesser than being a parent. Having children is a lifestyle choice. Personally, I think the last thing this world needs is more babies, and women having full agency over whether or not they choose to reproduce is a good thing. I can see how that would not sit well with certain groups, though.
As for your assertion that more stepparents may abuse children(The Cinderella Effect)--while that may be true, it does not negate the fact that many children are abused by their biological parents. Child abuse and neglect is not that rare, unfortunately. How does that fit in to your "different when it is your own" assertion? Those parents may well have felt the love and bonding for their children when they were born. So what happens there?
hyzenthflay
05-18-2007, 11:37 AM
MANY doctors won't give an IUD to someone who's never had a child.
Something to do with the uterus..... it can cause permanent sterility if an unaltered uterus happens to be perforated by it.
xdamage
05-18-2007, 12:08 PM
Paintbaby,
It is a popular social fallacy at this point in US history that loving mothers and romance are some type of social phenomenon. You can start by reading Richard Dawkin's many books, as well as Steve Pinker's the Blank Slate - The Modern Denial of Human Nature to get up to speed on the basics of socio-biology, evolutionary-psychology, and the myths that are being popularized today and why. I wouldn't have time to get you up to speed in a paragraph. And actually, you can see this instinctual behavior in animals and even insects; the fundamental instinct to protect and raise their young. You can hardly blaim that on social training, yet it happens, trillions of times over a year, creatures taking extra special care of their young until their young are ready to move on.
Some colleges are finally starting to integrate socio-biology and evolutionary-psychology into their main stream ciriculum. I'd guess another generation or two and it will have become mainstream, while today it is effectively cutting edge and a lot of it is opposite the blank slate mindset being taught in schools.
As for you feeling like you're being "pushed". This is in your head. You shouldn't confuse the presentation of information with being "pushed" which is your emotional reaction to it.
Also I'm not going to waste any time on the notion that I'm completely unable to conceive of the woman's point of view for two reasons. 1.) When it is convienent people like to use the argument that men and women are equal, and so by that argument we should have more in common in experience then not, and 2.) we were talking about people that do love the hell out of their kids post birth, men and women included. I fail to see what the pregnancy lead up has to do with the point then that once that is over, a lot of women end up loving their kids.
Just a side point of enlightenment. Everyone one of us has direct experience with how we have physically and mentally changed over the decade period from say age 10 to age 20. On any particular day to day experience, we can barely see any difference, yet we know that over the course of years, most of us change dramatically in 10 years. We also know that many times people 10 years or so older then us will say "your feelings will change". And yet, almost all of has have a huge blind spot when it comes to believing that what we feel and think today will be what we feel and thing 10 years from now. Yet despite all evidence to the contrary, both from our own direct experience, and input from others, almost all of us think we are the exception and what we feel and think like today will be the same in the future.. Yet our genetic clock keeps on ticking, our bodies keep on changing (although slower then 10 to 20, the changes continue), and our experiences keep on growing.
TheSexKitten
05-18-2007, 12:45 PM
it can cause permanent sterility if an unaltered uterus happens to be perforated by it.
Wouldn't that make you... die? :O
Dottie Rebel
05-18-2007, 12:58 PM
^^^Perforation of the uterus is actually extremely rare and usually the result of improper insertion. Expulsion of the device is the only problem that is more likely in women who've not carried a pregnancy to term, but it probably won't hurt you and it sure as hell won't kill you :)
IUD is the most common form of birth control worldwide the risks are actually relatively low.
Paintbaby
05-18-2007, 03:47 PM
Paintbaby,
It is a popular social fallacy at this point in US history that loving mothers and romance are some type of social phenomenon. You can start by reading Richard Dawkin's many books, as well as Steve Pinker's the Blank Slate - The Modern Denial of Human Nature to get up to speed on the basics of socio-biology, evolutionary-psychology, and the myths that are being popularized today and why. I wouldn't have time to get you up to speed in a paragraph. And actually, you can see this instinctual behavior in animals and even insects; the fundamental instinct to protect and raise their young. You can hardly blaim that on social training, yet it happens, trillions of times over a year, creatures taking extra special care of their young until their young are ready to move on.
Some colleges are finally starting to integrate socio-biology and evolutionary-psychology into their main stream ciriculum. I'd guess another generation or two and it will have become mainstream, while today it is effectively cutting edge and a lot of it is opposite the blank slate mindset being taught in schools.
As for you feeling like you're being "pushed". This is in your head. You shouldn't confuse the presentation of information with being "pushed" which is your emotional reaction to it.
Also I'm not going to waste any time on the notion that I'm completely unable to conceive of the woman's point of view for two reasons. 1.) When it is convienent people like to use the argument that men and women are equal, and so by that argument we should have more in common in experience then not, and 2.) we were talking about people that do love the hell out of their kids post birth, men and women included. I fail to see what the pregnancy lead up has to do with the point then that once that is over, a lot of women end up loving their kids.
Just a side point of enlightenment. Everyone one of us has direct experience with how we have physically and mentally changed over the decade period from say age 10 to age 20. On any particular day to day experience, we can barely see any difference, yet we know that over the course of years, most of us change dramatically in 10 years. We also know that many times people 10 years or so older then us will say "your feelings will change". And yet, almost all of has have a huge blind spot when it comes to believing that what we feel and think today will be what we feel and thing 10 years from now. Yet despite all evidence to the contrary, both from our own direct experience, and input from others, almost all of us think we are the exception and what we feel and think like today will be the same in the future.. Yet our genetic clock keeps on ticking, our bodies keep on changing (although slower then 10 to 20, the changes continue), and our experiences keep on growing.
I definitely agree that animals take special care to raise their young. They have to, as babies don't survive without constant care and attention, as we all know. But love is not a genetic trait. It is a learned social behaviour. This, along with the powerful mix or neuro-chemicals, gives the feelings of love. What I take exception to is the notion here that women do not know their own minds--"you'll change your mind." This attitude basically infantilizes women and treats us as though we really don't know what we want. I'm 39, and I can assure you that I never changed my mind about not wanting kids, from the time I was a teenager.
It isn't the notion of loving mothers that I take exception to--I have a very loving mother myself--it is the romanticization of the role, and by extension, children. That is a relatively new phenomenon in our society. And because of this, childfree folk, more often the women, are regarded with suspicion by most of mainstream society. I find that unnecessary and intrusive, but I don't feel "pushed". But thanks for defining my reaction as "emotional"---my willingness to debate a point is in no way emotional, and I am sceptical about your sources of information--but it is easier to start playing the "calm down, little lady!" card, isn't it? Stop with the condescension, already.::)
I appreciate the reading list---are there scientific studies in the reading? What I was curious about is if you had any scientific studies to back up your claims, because I would genuinely like to know. I'm very aware of the reality of psychology, and the genetic, biological and evolutionary factors that play into the development of human emotion and attachment---my degree is in psychology.;D And speaking of animal studies--my minor was primate anthropology. Fascinating stuff there--in primate societies, when a dominant male is dethroned by a younger, stronger male, the first order of business for the younger male is to kill the babies of the previous male so the females will go into heat and he can impregnate them with his own genetic material. Considering that we share about 97% of our genetic material with chimpanzees(if you want to use the genetic argument), we can see that it is really the forces of socialization and societal expectation of expression of the "norm" in our behaviours that keeps us in line. This example also dovetails nicely into the "Cinderella " abuse paradigm regarding child abuse by a step-parent.
Also, I'm sure many abusive parents do love the hell out of their kids post-birth. Sometimes, abuse is about poor parenting skills, not about a mental deficiency. Choosing to have children is not instinctual--it is a choice--one that is afforded to us by our large primate brains. Either we want to procreate, or we do not. Lower animals, insects and the like breed because it IS purely instinctual.
Good for parents that do a good job--but choosing to be a parent is not instinctual by any means.
Oh, and there is no "argument" that men and women are equal--we are. But you still won't ever have the point of view of a woman, like I will never have the point of view of a man. Your experience as a father is still not the experience of a mother, although the love may be equal.
ExoticEngineer
05-18-2007, 03:56 PM
I just wanted to note that I don't believe that just because you take care of your child's biological needs means that you necessarily love them. I know my own parents didn't love us, but they made sure we had shelter and enough food to survive so they wouldn't get thrown in trouble with social services for neglect - and they knew my grandparents would so kick their asses if anything happened to us. My parents tried multiple times to give each of us up for adoption without success - either from the system or from family pressure.
I just think that if you don't want kids, you shouldn't have them unless you are sure you've changed your mind.
Oh boy do I agree with this. I have seen it over and over again. I don't believe that jsut because you give birth, and feed and shelter a child that it means you love them. I have seen so many parents who are completely indifferent to a child. The child doesn't starve, or wear dirty clothes, but that doesn't mean anything other than that parent doesn't like the idea of jail either.
While I never wanted children, I have one, and I DO love him, with all of my heart. I can easily understand how it could have gone the other way. I've seen it.
And to touch on what someone else said earlier (can't keep track of where) it is not automatic, you don't jsut instantly love the screaming, crying, purple little mass that pops out of you. Some women love the baby before he/she is born (but I think that's in love with the "idea" of being mommy. and some women have to warm up to the feeling and some just don't. And I don't think there is anything wrong with any of it...... well, except the jsut don't part, if you're having babies you don't love or want, you need help. plain and simple.
Am I rambling? I need coffee.... :D
Lysondra
05-18-2007, 04:53 PM
^^^Perforation of the uterus is actually extremely rare and usually the result of improper insertion. Expulsion of the device is the only problem that is more likely in women who've not carried a pregnancy to term, but it probably won't hurt you and it sure as hell won't kill you :)
IUD is the most common form of birth control worldwide the risks are actually relatively low.
Yes, which, xdamage, I do believe I said. They won't give me one because of that stupid MINUTE (SUPER minute!) chance that it'll cause tearing.
Ugh.
xdamage
05-18-2007, 05:04 PM
Yes, which, xdamage, I do believe I said. They won't give me one because of that stupid MINUTE (SUPER minute!) chance that it'll cause tearing.
Ugh.
Hmm, I seem to have gotten mixed up into something I didn't say.
Lysondra
05-18-2007, 05:05 PM
^ Whoops, you're right, I was thinking of someone else.
xdamage
05-18-2007, 05:20 PM
I just wanted to note that I don't believe that just because you take care of your child's biological needs means that you necessarily love them. I know my own parents didn't love us, but they made sure we had shelter and enough food to survive so they wouldn't get thrown in trouble with social services for neglect - and they knew my grandparents would so kick their asses if anything happened to us. My parents tried multiple times to give each of us up for adoption without success - either from the system or from family pressure.
I just think that if you don't want kids, you shouldn't have them unless you are sure you've changed your mind.
My mom had a lot of emotional problems her whole life and from the point of view was a very poor parent, but that said... she did love us in her own way, more so then she loved many others. Was she a great mom? She was abusive 99% of the time. But she did feel a special bond with us in her own way. In any case, I agree everyone should make their own choice. The only thing is:
1.) The choices we make when we are young often to do change as we grow older (basically everyone here will be able to revisit this question in 10, 20, 30 years and see where the really end up). At 20 I was sure I never wanted kids. By 30 I was a totally different person. By 40 a new person yet again.
2.) The vast majority of people I know have loving moms. In part it's related to who you surround yourself with. In part its related to whether you see the negatives over the positives. This is key. Do you want to see the general trends, or does your mind lock onto the exceptions to the exclusion of the more normal and common?
3.) There are no guarantees. Humans are frail biological creatures. A few germs can kill us. A small amount of drugs or radiation can kill us or cause cancer that kills us. There are always going to be exceptions, but we can't understand the general trends by focusing on the exceptions. My mind is more interested in the general trends then the exceptions. I view my mom as an exception, the uncommon mom. I'm glad I didn't let that unusual/exceptional experience paralyze me or color my decisions in life. It turns out I didn't have to be her, nor did have to surround myself with people like her. I'm glad I didn't like the fear steer my fate. I hear a lot of I know people who are .. [fill in the negative blank] ... but if you really don't know a lot of people who [fill in the positive blank] it really is time to get some new friends because they do exist, and personally I can't let fear of the rare mentally unwell individual dictate my future or how I see it. In other words I'm not going to let my life come to standstill or dictate my plans because I know someone somewhere that is a complete emotional mess. They exist sure, but they are not key to how I form my decisions, or my view of the world. Fear can paralyze us. Nothing I posted is about guarantees, I can't offer them, and anyone can pull an I know a [fill in fucked up person] out of their hat. But they are not the norm in my world, they are the rare exceptions.
xdamage
05-18-2007, 05:37 PM
I definitely agree that animals take special care to raise their young. They have to, as babies don't survive without constant care and attention, as we all know. But love is not a genetic trait. It is a learned social behaviour.
I couldn't disagree more. Since so much of the rest is based on this belief, there is not much point in further discussing it since this premise is so key. Without having read the books, we aren't on equal footing, but I do believe the notion that love is a learned behavior is completely wrong. As an example, If you have a pet, do something to scare it. Tell me then that fear is a learned behavior and was learned through socialization. Try it with a kitten a few days old to prove the point that it already has the emotion of fear well built in at birth. And chances are you really don't think the animal acting in fear feels a lot different then a human. Yet popular think at this point in history is that animals go through the motions of caring for their young, but have no sense of it. There is no logical reason for that belief, but it is popular.
Since I'm absolutely 100% certain (that is to say I'm too far beyond a state of doubt to spend any time debating it) certain that love like so many other emotions is genetic and has been learned over eons and passed on as an emotions via the genes, we won't agree on this. I do understand the notion that love is learned socially or the notion that it is mystical and comes from a mystical place, but sadly this is popular think at the moment. But it doesn't jive with observation, and since I'm 100% certain at this point it just isn't so, and that the socio-biological viewpoint will eventually become the norm, there is not much more for me to add. Since I'm not going to change my viewpoint, I'm going to have to wait for the future and for what is being to taught in schools and popular think to catch up. I do however predict that it will in time.
LilyLove
05-18-2007, 06:03 PM
This thread is totally turning into the endless nature vs. nurture debate. I forsee many pages to come...
This thread is totally turning into the endless nature vs. nurture debate. I forsee many pages to come...
:dunce: Because "Professor Xdamage" thinks the world revolves around his theories and opinions, and the other girls won't ignore him. :-X
xdamage
05-18-2007, 06:27 PM
Of course being ambivalent to your children is not the norm, never said that it was. My concern is that telling people that they will automatically love their children is rather irresponsible. You can't predict that someone will love their child, and to me, it's not worth the risk to a child to be born to someone who didn't want them and might never want them.
I'm not telling anyone to do anything. Basic logic 101... information is not a call to arms. You take it or leave it. People are adults. They make their own decisions in life. Information doesn't make them do things against their will.
I guess I assume people are adults. They can use feedback, but not advice. This isn't any. By the same token, I don't worry that my experiences or info will make someone choose anything they wouldn't want. If you the concern here is you're trying to stay negative for fear someone somewhere might choose to have a child that shouldn't, I'd say let it go, it's not and never will be your responsibility to make sure nobody nowhere makes the wrong choice. The "risk" is in your head I think.
I certainly never claimed any absolutes, just probabilities.
Just a personal opinion - I think everyone should try to enjoy their life without kids for a while, enjoy their career, enjoy their SO, enjoy life. Makes total sense to me, but who knows what the future will hold. All I'm saying is it's not all doom and gloom. It's not just an experience of "work" for most of us with no benefits when or if the time comes that a person wants to have kids. That's a rather immature view of it, and how we feel about other people's kids doesn't really give us any indication about how we will end up feeling about our own.
p.s. dont confuse sharing of information with making anyone do anything . we have to trust that the other women on this site are adults, and capable of making decisions, and that one persons piece of information will not make them do anything they wouldnt do otherwise.
Dottie Rebel
05-18-2007, 06:48 PM
:dunce: Because "Professor Xdamage" thinks the world revolves around his theories and opinions, and the other girls won't ignore him. :-X
!! *sigh*
xdamage
05-18-2007, 06:51 PM
You can say you love your children, but it's your actions that speak volumes. When I worked for the state, you have no idea how many people I spoke to that claimed to love their children so much, but would beat them, neglect them or worse.
I worked for a state mental agency myself. One point is that out of the many millions in the state, the relatively few that passed through our facility represented a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the total. The other thing is, life is imperfect. Exceptions don't disprove the norms, and love, even for children is imperfect. There are no guarantees, and even those who think they would never abuse their children may do so. I personally can't and don't live under the premise of a perfection that can't and never will exist. I'm content with things being "roughly" positive and moving forward. If that makes sense. Fear of imperfections can paralyze us - I refuse to let that fear dictate how I make my decisions. Too each his own of course.
aviendha
05-18-2007, 06:56 PM
Whatever, I don't care about reasons why people do or don't love their children.
I love being child-free because I'm free to concentrate on the important things in my life and can enjoy peace and quiet whenever I need it, which is frequently. I have a very busy job and the field I'm in is constantly advancing, so there's always something new to learn and pressure to keep up.
Besides that, I'm looking forward to having my credit card debt paid off later this year (finally) and then next year, I hope to move to another state (mainly for the experience of it), travel abroad and experience new things in general.
:crowded:^^^^Thanks, aviendha! We want to hear more input and opinions of those that are childfree! Girls...SERIOUSLY>>>>IGNORE "PROFESSOR XDAMAGE"...we were smoothe sailing for a while...DO NOT LET HIM INTERRUPT!!:) This is OUR THREAD!:)
xdamage
05-18-2007, 07:08 PM
It's more that I'm worried about people that aren't sure... and people who don't want kids, but feel they have to conform to society's expectations because they are constantly being told that they *will* love their children because that is what is normal.
I guess I don't relate to the notion of "society's expectations". I hear it a lot now, but I don't relate. It sounds like a victim-mentality cop-out to me. Maybe that's the latest popular thing, but I hope not or we have a lot of TOOLS running around who have bought into popular think. Adults need to take responsibility for their choices, not worry about what societies expectations are. I sure don't.
I guess the point is we are all terrified going forward in life, about our jobs, relationships, children, our future, and so much more. Fear of the future is the norm. Somehow we fight through it and make our decisions. I can see an extra special concern for the children, but honestly if everyone was paralyzed by this concern because there wasnt a 100% assurance our race would end. I think people need to be reasonably sure, but not 100%. Some self doubt is probably a good thing.
What I do agree with Lady Jade is that many women and men are not at all ready to have kids. They definitely should not. But as they mature, as their jobs stabilize, as they gain more experience, as their relationships stabilize, things can change. All I'm saying is what we feel today can change. We can make our decision not to have to kids today without the qualification of NEVER; it's enough to say not today, not yet, I'm not ready now without saying never ever.
:)
Heh Ok, back on to the topic...
I'm enjoying being childfree. I'm active in charity work, and I'd rather spend my time right now helping people while I still have the drive to do so. Not saying that I couldn't do charity work if I had kids, but it does make it easier if I wanted to travel to a dangerous area at the drop of a hat - then I don't have to worry that my own children might become like the orphans that I help if something were to happen to me! I guess it just makes it easier to put yourself out there like that.
That's another great reason, LadyJade! What better reason than to spend your time devoting to community charities. I should put that on my list...I've always wanted to help out at the local animal shelter!
kittenkat
05-18-2007, 07:17 PM
Xdamage, you fucking sanctimonious ASSHOLE. STFU and if you wanna talk about evolutionary biology, start another thread, you condescending motherfucker.
Adults need to take responsibility for their choices, not worry about what societies expectations are. I sure don't.
Yeah, so shut the fuck up since that's what we're doing, and if you want to start your own thread, please do so.
They definitely should not. But as they mature, as their jobs stabilize, as they gain more experience, as their relationships stabilize, things can change. All I'm saying is what we feel today can change. We can make our decision not to have to kids today without the qualification of NEVER; it's enough to say not today, not yet, I'm not ready now without saying never ever.
Jesus fucking christ, spout more obvious crap in your patronizing manner, why don't you? Yes, many women and men that don't want kids change their mind as they grow older. I don't know of many 14 year old kids wanting to be moms and dads, but i know plenty of 30 years olds that do. There's also a number of us- that have no interest in having kids, period. Get over it instead of barging in and telling us what little immature twats we are with your patronizing bullshit. Mmmkay?
So yeah, a boot in the ass for Mr. Obvious aka lemme tell you dumb bitches what's up- there are SOME OF US here that don't want kids for VERY VALID fucking reasons that are frankly-none of your business. And we're doing exactly what you said- taking responsibility for our actions and not caring what a sniveling little asshole like you think.
You want to talk evolutionary biology, do it on another thread, but I'm sick fo your holier than thou attitude. Fuck off. Nobody is saying that some of us may not change our minds. I'm up to my eyeballs in people telling me I'll change my mind in badzillions of ways. I haven't heard a new variety for a few years now, so please- stop with the tooting of the clearly obvious and STFU. you think you have something new to share- but you know what? The shit that came out of yo' mouth- I've heard thousands of times in various little variations. If you think we're actually adults, then stop being a condescending prick.
Xdamage, you fucking sanctimonious ASSHOLE. STFU and if you wanna talk about evolutionary biology, start another thread, you condescending motherfucker.
Yeah, so shut the fuck up since that's what we're doing, and if you want to start your own thread, please do so.
Jesus fucking christ, spout more obvious crap in your patronizing manner, why don't you? Yes, many women and men that don't want kids change their mind as they grow older. I don't know of many 14 year old kids wanting to be moms and dads, but i know plenty of 30 years olds that do. There's also a number of us- that have no interest in having kids, period. Get over it instead of barging in and telling us what little immature twats we are with your patronizing bullshit. Mmmkay?
So yeah, a boot in the ass for Mr. Obvious aka lemme tell you dumb bitches what's up- there are SOME OF US here that don't want kids for VERY VALID fucking reasons that are frankly-none of your business. And we're doing exactly what you said- taking responsibility for our actions and not caring what a sniveling little asshole like you think.
You want to talk evolutionary biology, do it on another thread, but I'm scik fo your holier than thou attitude. fuck off.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!
Lysondra
05-18-2007, 07:29 PM
Imo, ANY reason for not wanting children is a VERY VALID reason.
^I love you, LM...you are FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!;D
kittenkat
05-18-2007, 07:44 PM
I guess the point is we are all terrified going forward in life, about our jobs, relationships, children, our future, and so much more.
not all of us are scared weetle womenseZ. Maybe you are, but don't be projecting your neuroses on us and tdoing the talking down to bitches with faux concern shtick- to make you feel better, jerk-off.
I guess I don't relate to the notion of "society's expectations". I hear it a lot now, but I don't relate. It sounds like a victim-mentality cop-out to me.
Yes, massah- you know more than we do. Yes, you know nothing about the details of our lives, but whatever it is, it's OUR FUCKING FAULT when people harass us for a private decision that is nobody's business, eh? Why do I NOT want to talk about this subject with a lot of people? Because you're not original, you're not unique- in fact, we get to deal with your minions every time we talk about this fucking subject.
Again...
FUCK OFF AND DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOUR FUCKING ASS ON THE WAY OUT YOU PRICK
Dottie Rebel
05-18-2007, 07:45 PM
VERY interesting story on 20/20 tonight...
"Is it a social taboo to say that raising children bores you? Do you secretly hate having to read the same bedtime stories to your children over and over again? What about having to go to their music recital, all three nights?
For most moms, it is considered inappropriate to express boredom with these natural motherly duties, but freelance journalist Helen Kirwin-Taylor is one mom who isn't afraid to break those taboos."
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3176190&page=1
not all of us are scared weetle womenseZ. Maybe you are, but don't be projecting your neuroses on us and tdoing the talking down to bitches with faux concern shtick- to make you feel better, jerk-off.
Yes, massah- you know more than we do. Yes, you know nothing about the details of our lives, but whatever it is, it's OUR FUCKING FAULT when people harass us for a private decision that is nobody's business, eh? Why do I NOT want to talk about this subject with a lot of people? Because you're not original, you're not unique- in fact, we get to deal with your minions every time we talk about this fucking subject.
Again...
FUCK OFF AND DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOUR FUCKING ASS ON THE WAY OUT YOU PRICK
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lysondra
05-18-2007, 07:56 PM
^I love you, LM...you are FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!;D
One time someone told me they didn't want kids because they liked their handbag collection too much.
Someone told her that was a stupid reason to not want kids.
I replied with, "Honey, if you love handbags more than you would your own children, it is DEFINITELY a good enough reason not to have kids."
Seriously... think of ANY reason not to have kids.. even the most selfless or selfISH reasons... they're all pretty damn good.
I don't want children because I don't like them.
That's a DAMN good reason.
AlexxaHex
05-18-2007, 08:02 PM
Seems like the pack mentality Chicken Littles of SW have been aroused by this thread. It's so easy to gang up on one particular poster without really adding anything of value, isn't it?
I think the problem is that there are too many people who are taking Xdamage's opinions PERSONALLY when they should be more concerned about the real dangers to their points of view. X isn't going to take your rights away, nor does he want to so why are you all so offended? You should be angry at the REAL root of your problems (the people IRL who are fucking with you) and stop taking it out on him. I still have this distinct feeling you're all defensive because he's a guy, yet this thread wasn't designated only for women. He's not even trying to tell you what to do, but offering his own POV which is JUST AS VALID AS YOURS. Seems like the only women left talking on this thread are "yeswomen" who are all just joining together and going "yeah yeah get out of our thread" when they themselves aren't even contributing anything at all!
Mindless sheep, I tell you. I'm QUITE glad many of you have decided not to have kids, so believe me, I wouldn't object to your decision at all. I think X feels the same way, although I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth.
Lysondra
05-18-2007, 08:07 PM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/66/213861052_91a49dcb16.jpg?v=0
Dude, I totally got Bingo with this thread.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/66/213861052_91a49dcb16.jpg?v=0
Dude, I totally got Bingo with this thread.
OMG!!!! BINGO!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
AlexxaHex
05-18-2007, 08:12 PM
I don't see anything nasty about it. Why don't you scroll up and read kittenkat's posts? Seriously - some people are obviously not cut out to be parents. That's pretty obvious from this thread. She proved a point within her nastiness.