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Jenny
05-23-2007, 07:47 AM
I dunno. I think Mia has a point. Very simply that this "upper" class doesn't exist without a "lower" class. Joss Whedon seems to think she's onto something with it, and I think she has a pretty good grasp on the conflicting classes on a show that was, after all, about a group of people evading an ever more regimented class structure. The reason "companions" were respected wasn't because they were prostitutes. It's because they they brought the trappings of civilization into the inherently uncivilized. It's not about fucking or stroking egos; it was about making them feel safe in the knowledge that the imperial, colonizing Alliance is ever expanding, with a more and more encompassing centre of "civilization." They're the anti-reavers, but in a gentle, non-threatening way (as opposed to the hostile and sometimes brutal order imposed by the government). Or, you know. So it seemed to me. But I thought it was kind of clear in the show that if the primary duty was sexual in nature that it wouldn't have been nearly as "high class."

Anyway - in our lives. I don't require respect, because I don't, by and large, require judgment or approval. I spent enough time in the proverbial "closet" to protect the sensibilities of people who just... don't approve of me under the auspices of "having respect". Fuck respect, they can keep it. People may like me, may enjoy my company or may not as they choose to - but I decline to be "approved of."

Callyish
05-23-2007, 07:52 AM
I agree there will always be 'classes' of every industry.

I mean take For Your Eyes Only(A very upscale Toronto club for those who don't know Toronto) and put it against say... I Don Knows(where all the umm.. questionable dancers end up in Toronto)... obviously FYEO is going to be considered more 'high class'.

And hell even FYEO will have their more classy girls and their more 'lower class' girls... its just the way society works...

Where the hell am I going with this post? I dunno...

*ducks back under her rock*

Jenny
05-23-2007, 08:06 AM
Certainly. But without the low class rabble, there is no such things as a high class. So looking again at Firefly, and saying "wouldn't it be super if this is how prostitutes and dancers were seen here and now" is a little naive, considering that even within the narrative they were clearly a small subset that provided a specific kind of service that was, in many ways, completely divorced from that service they ostensibly provided. Those women who actually just provided sex did not have the same social cachet.

All mia was doing was giving a post-colonial reading of Firefly (which, for a show about colonialism - maybe not such weird or crazy thing to do), and relating it to our particular circumstances. People freaked out because she used the expression "slumming". It's kind of incendiary, but there is something to it. Like, think about it. What am I really saying to customers every time I say something like "Yes, I'm a librarian/nursing student/law student during the day, but I just like working here at night because I'm a sexual deviant"? What I am telling them with that? That I'm a nice girl who likes to play dirty, as opposed to an actual dirty girl. Every time as customer says to me "so you must do something else during the day" what is he really asking? Same thing. There is a reason they don't like to assume that I'm a career dancer.

Callyish
05-23-2007, 08:08 AM
I don't think people would have really been annoyed with mias post if every damn post out of her wasnt so negative. The girl clearly has a problem with the industry.

I mean we all realize what we do and how its seen by the general public. But it doesn't hurt to dream that it would be viewed different does it?

I mean we all know drug abuse is in every industry.. but if someone says 'im a lawyer' the first reaction out of someone isn't 'oh so your a drug addicted whore?'.

I am far from being ashamed of what I do... but I still don't run around screaming 'im a stripper' *shrug*

Jenny
05-23-2007, 08:16 AM
I don't think people would have really been annoyed with mias post if every damn post out of her wasnt so negative. The girl clearly has a problem with the industry.

I mean we all realize what we do and how its seen by the general public. But it doesn't hurt to dream that it would be viewed different does it?
Of course not. But... well, I was an English major. Post colonial readings of TV shows are very important to me. Okay, reading that sentence again... I clearly need to eat something. Plus.. well, you know. I've had a lousy couple weeks at work. I have a huge fucking problem with the industry today.


I mean we all know drug abuse is in every industry.. but if someone says 'im a lawyer' the first reaction out of someone isn't 'oh so your a drug addicted whore?'.
True. And that may have something to do with the fact that fewer lawyers are incapacitated by drugs, but I suspect has a lot more to do with the exact elitism and classism that we've been discussing, but limiting to the sex trade. Think about who lawyers are, who their parents are, and what their backgrounds are. I mean, as a whole, not individual cases of spunky working class kids getting scholarships. I mean, I realize this is hardly revelatory - but, you know. Not a coincidence.


I am far from being ashamed of what I do... but I still don't run around screaming 'im a stripper' *shrug*What are you talking about? You wear a sign on your tracksuit!

holiday
05-23-2007, 08:17 AM
Maybe it's because I don't know what firefly is, but I don't see why all the dancers in a club can't be more "high class". Miabella is obsessed with the fact that there has to be "low class" dancers in the club as well, but I don't see why. I'm just thinking if I am running a business I'd want all of my employees to be educated and classy. I'd want them all to provide outstanding customer service. Of course some would be better at it then others, but they would all have the same training and skill set. Why is that not possible? It's done all the time. I'm not talking about society class divisions, just the way dancers are expected to act at work.

Callyish
05-23-2007, 08:19 AM
Okay fuck this.. wanna continue this debate over breakfast? LoL

Im hungry... and slightly horny *grin*

Oh and umm... my track suit says im a pole dancer, not a stripper :P

Jenny
05-23-2007, 08:29 AM
Cally and I have a "usual" breakfast place now. We shall soon have to start celebrating anniversaries and buying kittens and giving them strange names like Eduardo and Flufftastic.

Callyish
05-23-2007, 08:33 AM
Cally and I have a "usual" breakfast place now. We shall soon have to start celebrating anniversaries and buying kittens and giving them strange names like Eduardo and Flufftastic.

:rotfl: omg I think I just busted a rib from laughing so hard :rotfl:

Jenny
05-23-2007, 08:35 AM
:rotfl: omg I think I just busted a rib from laughing so hard :rotfl:
And you know, after I posted I was all "You know what would have been funnier? Mr. Flufftastic. Or... or! The Flufftastic Four. Okay, okay. I'm stopping.

Kalligirl
05-23-2007, 08:44 AM
I was watching Firefly, and I love Inara. Inara is a Companion, which is a highly trained courtesan with high status who serves the social elite. They do sell sex, but they still command great respect because they give many other services, such as ego massage. They receive rigorous education and training, and are licensed.

I know that this is a stretch, that we're not prostitutes, and that a lot of us got into it because it's quick money without education required, but wouldn't it be nice if strippers were trained and treated like Companions? We'd be like courtesans, geishas, tayu, hetairae. We'd be respected as companions and entertainers, and most of all, educated women. It's better than the coke-sniffing, deadbeat boyfriend-supporting, slutty party animal stereotype.

Daydream...

You should read Memoirs of a Geisha.

Susan Wayward
05-23-2007, 08:48 AM
Wow, miabella, you mean there has to be an underclass for there to be an upperclass? Thanks for that shocking fucking revelation. And for your information, missy, we are well aware that 98% of society lumps us all together as whores and that any distinctions are academic.

Callyish
05-23-2007, 08:53 AM
Wow, you mean there has to be an underclass for there to be an upperclass? Thanks for that shocking fucking revelation. And for your information, missy, we are well aware that 98% of society lumps us all together as whores and that any distinctions are academic.


Shhh Susan I was starting to fool myself into believing that I didnt have to climb a class ladder!!! I mean... well... bah fuck it I give up...

*does a headstand in Susans lap n slaps her with her ass*

casaubon1
05-23-2007, 09:28 AM
*Opens door to make comment, ducks flying paraphanalia*


It would be amazing to be recognized for one's ability to be drop dead sexy, a good converstionalist, a good host and so on and so on and to be paid accordingly for it. I just don't see that kind of position happening very often (unless you're a high end call girl or whatever label you use). It's not about keeping others down, which happens in every aspect of society, it's about wanting something more. But this is just my crazy opinion, I don't know if anyone agrees?

Setting aside the controversial "class" issue aside, there are at least some of us customers who are looking exactly for this. We may be travelling, alone, and delighted to find someone, late at night, with no prior notice, that we can enjoy talking with. An intelligent, poised dancer is an absolute delight to find, and if you add attractive and attentive, it is the perfect package. Why? It is both fun, and it makes us feel a lot better about ourselves and the experience -- it is not just a basic SC visit.

Based on some of the rant emails, it looks like customers like this may not be common enough to permit someone to earn a living, but there are some of us out there.

*Closes door, checks for bruises*

Optimist
05-23-2007, 10:07 AM
And I don't think anyone here is saying, "Man, I'm too good for this common stripper work. I am a high class lady. I deserve to sip champagne, wear La Perla--and leave it on--while I wax philosophical with powerful and important men. Let the plebes grind and spread 'em."

SHEEET! I'M SAYING THAT!!!;D

You can hate me now!:P

Andygirl
05-23-2007, 10:16 AM
This thread got interesting while I slept.........ahhh, but that means I don't have to post anymore since several sensible ladies have come in and made sense of the whole mess.

KaliThorne
05-23-2007, 10:43 AM
And all this time I thought I was the only rabid Firefly fan.

I think Firefly was one of the best shows on tv in 10 years. Can't stop the signal...

Anyway, I think all of us can benefit from viewing ourselves as high class courtesans. Many men will pay you for your time and company to speak with a classy hot woman who they wouldn't be able to talk to OTC.

jaizaine
05-23-2007, 10:43 AM
Oh yeah I think miabella was that one who danced for a month and couldnt live with the fact that she compromised her integrity and slummed to being a whore.

Well this is stripperweb so if u hate the industry so much why continue to frequent this forum? Is it just to try and make others just as depressed, bitter and twisted as yourself?

Susan Wayward
05-23-2007, 11:06 AM
*does a headstand in Susans lap n slaps her with her ass*

My kind of courtesan!

KaliThorne
05-23-2007, 11:09 AM
I did a search and according to this http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72912&highlight=christian+dancers miabella thinks that we are lust inducing sinners who are going to hell.

So why are you here talking to all us sinners mia?

Katrine
05-23-2007, 11:21 AM
Ugh, I've met miabella and she is a great person. She danced for longer than a month as well. What's so bad about a fellow dancer looking at the industry from a different perspective? A retired dancer can offer insight as well, especially once she gets out of the "ivory tower" many newer dancers are living in, and see the reality over a number of years.

In all of my years of dancing, if I had waited around only for men who wanted the "courtesan" type, I wouldn't have made much of a living. But that's ok and there is nothing wrong with being a "sex dolly" type of stripper as well as a classy lady. Always be a cameleon!

Callyish
05-23-2007, 11:42 AM
Im not saying we all have to be courtesan types Kat... as with anything in life there are different types of dancers/people.

I can portray a really classy dancer wearing gowns and rhinestone jewelry... but I can also make myself the party girl with hoop earings and a tube dress.

It just depends on who you are and what your comfortable with.

My problem with Mia is shes very negative with EVERYTHING, shes always bitching about something and shes constantly thinking everyone is being racist towards her.

Im not saying shes not a cool person, I just think she needs to stop being so negative and sour about everything.

Optimist
05-23-2007, 01:04 PM
I don't care if she's cool with you--she's not cool with me! Her comments are insulting and there purely to be a wet blanket. If you were dreaming of better paying clients and your co-worker came along and said 'you're delusional, you better get used to being underpaid and treated like crap' would you accept it? Would you thnk 'that's a cool person to come tell me to give up!"

xoxoGracexoxo
05-23-2007, 01:22 PM
I'm with Kat. Some guys want a classy lady to spend the evening with. Some guys want a sex-doll to writhe vacantly in their lap for ten minutes. Here in the real world, you make more money if you can do both. Er...what was the debate about again?

Is miabella saying that "classy" dancers are making money at the expense of "unclassy" dancers? And what do we mean by "class" anyway? To me, a classy dancer takes some trouble with her appearance, stays sober enough to make conversation (should it be required), and doesn't end the night spread-eagled over the bar with one shoe on, screaming at the staff. It ain't that hard to do.

When it comes down to it, it's a competetive job. Some of us compete by being able to provide good company and conversation to customers who want it. Some of us compete by providing blowjobs to customers who want that. "Classiness" isn't magic, it's just another skill set some of us use to make money. I LOVE the rare customer who will pay me to hang out and talk for a few hours. Sometimes that means high philosophical debate. Sometimes we're just talking about NASCAR.

I've never seen Firefly, but after I read Memoirs of a Geisha, I remember thinking it would be neato if there were a more extensive training program for strippers, teaching classiness, among other important skills. Wouldn't it just be nifty if sexuality were sufficiently honored in our culture that sex workers were taken seriously as professionals, and trained accordingly.

This would not abolish the class divides that exist in sex work, as in pretty much every other line of work. But maybe it would provide a better defined career path that the more ambitious could take.

Anyway, are those of us who are smart enough to hold conversations with customers NOT to do so, just so we can level the playing field for dancers who can't? Should unnaturally beautiful dancers be forced to wear paper bags on their heads so girl-next-door types like me can compete?

Darling
05-23-2007, 02:46 PM
I have to butt in a bit - I disagree with Mia as well. For the most part, (for me) my job is only about being a interesting and intelligent woman, with a bit of T&A thrown into the mix. Most of my customers are very much interested in meeting a classy, straight A student, and sexy blonde. Not only does it dismiss the stereotypes, I am the fantasy woman that they always wanted to meet and get married to.

For the less educated customers that I have, in this world of low paying and thankless jobs (that they may have), they are usually quite happy for me and want to see me succeed. In the vein of classiness, I personally find that what I do if more "classy" than someone living off of their partner (by only dating rich men that they have no respect nor love for) expecting everything to be given to them on a silver platter. To me, that could be labeled as prostitution. On that note, I see nothing wrong in prostitution, but have the biggest problem with people denying their "relationships" to be this kind of financial agreement. Certainly, I have competely digressed from my point.

My point is this : It takes a intelligent and classy woman to make money without compromising her integrity. Regardless of her class background. Class, believe it or not, can be learned and acted. Integrity cannot not.

AlexxaHex
05-23-2007, 03:05 PM
You're not innocent either.

Meh. Sue me.

PaigeDWinter
05-23-2007, 04:27 PM
I claim being River!!!

I can kill you with my brain.


Is your food problematic? ;D





And all this time I thought I was the only rabid Firefly fan.

I think Firefly was one of the best shows on tv in 10 years. Can't stop the signal...

Effin right, can't stop it! I'mma have a SWers Only Firefly Marathon someday! ya'll can get yer butts on over and it'll rock socks.

Lysondra
05-23-2007, 04:29 PM
Is your food problematic? ;D

I giggle.

Jenny
05-23-2007, 04:36 PM
Is miabella saying that "classy" dancers are making money at the expense of "unclassy" dancers? I think mia was saying that sighing longingly at the depiction in firefly and saying "wouldn't it be neat if..." is a little short sighted, seeing as it was in the context of an extremely rigid caste system. I mean, geez. And yes, it may seem painfully obvious that the upperclass requires an underclass, but I could give you 10 000 examples, from this site, from my life and I betcha from any of your lives, in which that "underclass" is swept down a sewer. A metaphorical sewer, by the way. Geez. Has NOBODY read "The Tempest" but me?

I don't care what she's like in chat or real life - in this thread she has said nothing that could characterized as "stupid" (although I'm having a few doubts about a couple of posters who seem to think that sitting around insulting her is much, much more interesting than dealing with her points substantively - I mean, you have to wonder why that is if they think they are so freaking smart) and her big general crime seems to be an awareness of racism in the industry. I mean for crying out loud. The industry is racist. It's openly racist. It's ALLOWED to be racist. Racism flourishes in this industry. If you are victimized by that racism it might - just might - seem like a bigger deal to you than when you are either fetishized (in a lucrative way) or benefited.

jaizaine
05-23-2007, 07:41 PM
^^
She directed a post at me saying that I think I am better than the rest of the girls I work with. There was nothing in my post that could have led her to say that. She also said because I have grown up in a more privileged family that I am slumming it by dancing.
Quite frankly she is just a judgmental bitch and I dont think anyone would miss her if she pissed off.

Jenny
05-23-2007, 07:45 PM
^^
She directed a post at me saying that I think I am better than the rest of the girls I work with. There was nothing in my post that could have led her to say that. She also said because I have grown up in a more privileged family that I am slumming it by dancing.
Quite frankly she is just a judgmental bitch and I dont think anyone would miss her if she pissed off.
I don't think she's the only one here who's ever made a judgment (I know I've had to apologize to more than one member here for flying off the handle, imagining that it was justified for some reason or other). And I'd miss her. Negative or not, I think she's made some insightful commentary.

jaizaine
05-23-2007, 07:51 PM
She doesn't know me and she has no right to make those assumptions with nothing to back it up. It damn pissed me off big time. Why did I not feel the need to respond thoughtfully to her posts? Because I do not have to justify why I dance over (as she suggested) doing some other job which pays just as much as dancing as is just as flexible. But no as she so nicely put it I choose to slum it and take my clothes off for a living when I should be doing something else.

So I simply asked why does she frequent stripper web if we are such whores who lack the morals that she thinks that she has?

I have no time for judgmental fucks like her. She made her ugly statements and I'm sure this thread will come to an end but it won't be forgotten any time soon. She has also made other negative comments in other threads. Maybe she should find a forum where she doesn't consider 99% of the women whores.

smartcookie
05-23-2007, 07:56 PM
Mia's comments haven't been blown slightly out of proportion, have they?

Most people have a very romanticized notion of courtesans and courtesanship, distorted through the lense of postmodern academia or Wicca or some other bullshit. The truth is that most courtesans throughout history - Geishas or 16th century Venetians or hetaira - didn't have much choice in the matter. Read Bawds & Brothel Keepers of London or Courtesans by Katie Hickman for some more recent Anglo-Saxon historical examples.

Are there real courtesans? Sure. Are there many? Nope.

Optimist
05-23-2007, 08:01 PM
^^^^Who said there had to be many? The OP said it would be great to have more money and respect. That's it. She didn't blow this up a bit. She didn't say there should be thousands of courtesans or that they've historically been held in the highest esteem imaginable. Miabella blew this into a statement on social standing in the dance club.



as for any dancers swearing they don't think they are superior to anyone else, the mere fact that they consider other girls tacky or trashy or slutty for doing what they would not puts the lie to their statements.


You forgot to point that finger back at yourself since you find us just, well, "silly".

jaizaine
05-23-2007, 08:05 PM
Ok I'm done and she is gonna be the first SW member that I have had to put on ignore. I come to SW to enjoy conversations with other people and I assumed that it is one place where I would not have to be judged or criticised for my decision to dance.

needtodance
05-23-2007, 08:10 PM
Staying out of the debate.....but YAY firefly!!!

*geeks out*

smartcookie
05-23-2007, 08:12 PM
^^^^Who said there had to be many? The OP said it would be great to have more money and respect. That's it. She didn't blow this up a bit. She didn't say there should be thousands of courtesans or that they've historically been held in the highest esteem imaginable. Miabella blew this into a statement on social standing in the dance club.

Which is thread drift, something that happens. There's a lot of nuance we miss in an online format. I think she was just stating her opinion; there's no need to get up in arms over it.

I agree with the OP, though. It would be nice.

Jenny
05-23-2007, 08:33 PM
Ok I'm done and she is gonna be the first SW member that I have had to put on ignore. I come to SW to enjoy conversations with other people and I assumed that it is one place where I would not have to be judged or criticised for my decision to dance.I think you took it a little too personally; I'm pretty sure she was talking in terms of, like, sociology, not criticizing you personally. You made yourself an example, so she took it up as an example is all. And really if you read over this thread, you've been the most negative, by quite a lot. Like, I get it - I've done it too. But there is sometimes a time to step back and say "gosh, maybe this is a little bit my fault, and maybe I didn't need to respond in exactly that way." Seriously - read again with a little distance. Girl is just doing a reading of Firefly, man. There is not really any need for the anger.

Further, I would that that responding to posts in a thorough and insightful way would be more for you than anyone. I mean really - do you really want to adding just "you're a bitch I hate you" posts to the thread? Like you choose to add; you CHOOSE to "defend" yourself. You might as well do it in an effective, intelligent way.

velvet
05-23-2007, 08:50 PM
this has gone on long enough. it's closed