View Full Version : Medical insurance in the US
jaizaine
06-06-2007, 12:05 AM
^^
Maybe she thinks we all ride around on skippy too. Australia is very multicultural.
miabella
06-06-2007, 12:28 AM
australia does not have the same percentage of ethnic groups that are nonwhite as, say, america does. there are european countries with generous social welfare that are having exceptional difficulty becoming 95% dutch or swedish instead of 99 percent same. homogeneity is crucial to the success of their much-lauded social welfare systems.
'diverse' is meaningless if the numbers aren't there. and 92 percent European is pretty homogeneous, y'know (and that mostly New Zealanders and UKians).
the homogeneity is important in any discussion of welfare states, because it is only the homogeneous ones where this kind of thing is supported by the population enough to work over long periods of time. people are much less likely to feel that 'undeserving' people are getting something they shouldn't when everyone mostly looks and behaves the same. it's a simple fact of human existence and it would be hateful and nasty to forget that such is the case or pretend otherwise.
anyway, i do wonder why non-citizen morrigan would claim that most australians pay 33% when the rates are more complexly lain out than that...
flickad
06-06-2007, 01:03 AM
plus, worth noting that australia is a lot more homogeneous than america. easier to pay lots of tax when nearly everyone around looks the same as you.
We're actually not homogenous at all. Have you ever BEEN to Australia? The suburb I live in, for example, has mostly Asian and African immigrants, far more than the Anglo population.
Also, I think that the implication that Australians are racist is something of the pot calling the kettle black (assuming you're American). Take a look at your own prison demographics before pointing the finger.
virgoamm
06-06-2007, 01:37 AM
Just FYI, from the demographics page of Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Current_.282006.29_Demogra phic_data
As opposed to the U.S. They are roughly the same:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States
GoldCoastGirl
06-06-2007, 01:41 AM
Oh.. and let's not forget the whole greek community in Melbourne rivals the number of greeks in Greece !!! ;)
We are a very multi cultural society and it can work against us at times. Sometimes those groups don't integrate well into the 'whole' society - they keep to themselves alot.
Regardless, you name a 'race' and Australia has it pretty much.
I, myself, have a bit of Mediteranian (sp?) in me thanks to my mother's father.
Lysondra
06-06-2007, 01:51 AM
Just FYI, from the demographics page of Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Current_.282006.29_Demogra phic_data
As opposed to the U.S. They are roughly the same:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States
Oh snap.. now don't be correcting her with dem book learnins.
aussiepunkshocker
06-06-2007, 02:12 AM
I didnt think Miabella comment was so bad and for the record she isnt white either (-:
From Virgoams source for Australia, unless Ive missed something...
European 92%
Asian 7%
Aboriginal and other 1%
I dont have any cover at all, although LM is making me think about it, lol.
I was with Medibank a lot of years ago and it worked out to be no better than if I wasnt with them with the claims I made, so I stopped. Quite honestly I have no need for most of what they offer cover for anyway.
Im very glad our system isnt like Americas though. When Ive needed emergency, thank god its been there with no cost!
virgoamm
06-06-2007, 02:36 AM
Here's the missing info for Australia:
Country of Birth
76.9% Australian born, 23.1% foreign born. For more information about immigration see Australian Immigration.
The most commonly declared foreign countries of birth amongst respondents were:
United Kingdom : 1,036,253 (5.8%)
New Zealand : 355,765 (2.0%)
Italy : 218,692 (1.2%)
Vietnam : 154,770 (0.9%)
China : 142,872 (0.8%)
Greece : 116,330 (0.7%)
Germany : 108,251 (0.6%)
Philippines : 104,018 (0.6%)
India : 95,444 (0.5%)
Netherlands : 83,299 (0.5%)
Thailand : 20,000 (0.1%)
Collectively 150,966 respondents (0.9%) were born in countries now known as Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).
Immigration from East Asia, South Asia and the Middle East has increased since the 1970s. Australia has also received small but growing numbers of Africans, Latin Americans, Pacific Islanders and those from former Soviet countries of Eastern Europe and even some American immigrants.
virgoamm
06-06-2007, 02:41 AM
And for the U.S.:
According to the Census Bureau's 2005 American Community Survey the US population is as follows:[7]
White American, 74.7%, or about 215.3 million (the definition of White includes European Americans, North African Americans, Middle Eastern Americans (e.g. Arab Americans), Central Asian Americans, and Hispanic Americans who reported as White in the 2000 Census)
Black or African American 12.1% or 34.9 million
Asian American 4.3% or 12.5 million,
American Indian 0.8% or 2.4 million
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander 0.1% or 0.4 million
Some other race 6% or 17.3 million
Two or more races 1.9% or 5.6 million
Each of the above categories includes people who identify their ethnicity as Hispanic or Latino.[8] U.S. federal law defines Hispanic to indicate any person with ancestry from a Latin American country or Spain.[9]
Hispanics of any race: 14.5% or about 41.9 million.[10]
jaizaine
06-06-2007, 02:54 AM
Interesting there "seems" to be a lot more non-whites than the stats are saying. Perhaps spread out over the whole of Australia there is less. I know Melbourne seems to have many indians, asians and lebanese.
Jay Zeno
06-06-2007, 06:31 AM
I'm not enchanted with the health care system. However, broke people get treated at clinics and the public hospitals, at least where I live. Health insurance is indeed costly. As an employer, I'm increasingly being faced with the option of either dropping health care coverage or letting people go. What would you do?
Still ... we have Canadian neighbors. They're happy with the health care here. We haven't talked about it much, but they weren't impressed with their system back home. I get the impression that it's more expensive, but good care, and they don't have the waiting lines that they did back there. That's just my impression.
I'd suggest that we can make comments on the hypothetical effects of ethnic/racial mixes of the population without calling each other, or being called, racists. It's when one claims racial superiority, or inferiority for someone else, that the term "racist" is more appropriately applied.
jaizaine
06-06-2007, 07:02 AM
I dont know of any employers providing medical insurance in Australia. Has anyone ever experienced this?
How did that system come about in the US? Also is it a salary sacrifice type arrangement? - do u agree to less pay for the insurance?
RoseWhite
06-06-2007, 07:27 AM
Melonie makes a good point about how a litigious society affects health care. This point is one that I've literally been talking about my entire life, having a doctor for a father. The argument was always framed as poor, victimized (and NEVER guilty) doctors vs. greedy, ambulance-chasing lawyers, period.
I'm not saying this is invalid, and, believe me, I understand that malpractice premiums are a huge problem. But I do not understand why, so often, it remains a battle between doctors and lawyers without ever discussing the middleman that's REALLY getting rich off this. The INSURANCE COMPANIES. Why do we all just accept this racket at face value? WHY? In my opinion, it's practically extortion, the medical mob. These are huge, bloated, unforgivably wealthy organizations.
The two biggest problems, in my opinion, aren't doctors or lawyers, but insurance companies . . . and the pharmaceutical titans (don't even get me started).
Jay Zeno
06-06-2007, 08:30 AM
The two biggest problems, in my opinion, aren't doctors or lawyers, but insurance companies . . . and the pharmaceutical titans (don't even get me started).Yup. Insurance companies use unusual high-award cases to publicize how bad it is and how rich these lawyers get.
Malpractice is a high-stakes game, and "game" is the word for it. Depending on the jurisdiction, a lawyer has to screen potential clients very carefully, because the insurance defense will work to break the claim financially. The defense will spend upwards of a couple hundred grand to pound even on cases that are destined to settle. When a case goes to trial, it's a craps shoot. An operation gone terribly wrong can result in nothing or a lot. The malpractice lawyer can be out of pocket $200K after two adverse jury verdicts, and the client in each case can owe $100K to the winning side. The lawyer is hoping, of course, that a successful case makes up the shortfall.
The insurance companies love to tell about an infected finger that brings in a million dollars. They don't talk (except to brag among themselves) about the wrong leg being amputated that resulted in nothing because they outspent the plaintiff into submission.
I'm not wasting any sympathy on lawyers who file malpractice cases. They know what the score is, especially in states where tort reform, lobbied by the insurance companies, have made it much harder. But they do take the risk. The insurance companies take the risk to the extent that any shortfall they see will be made up in premiums the next year, and they don't blame doctors who peform poorly - they have a much better whipping boy in the legal system.
Paris
06-06-2007, 11:37 AM
american tax burdens are probably half overall what australians pay. most people don't earn enough to really shoot up into tax brackets higher than 15-20%. plus a huge number of working-class people get money back as refunds, the very people whom medical care cost tends to hit hardest. they are certainly not paying massive amounts of tax to get 'cheap' healthcare services.
I know no one will read this, but here goes anyway...
Income tax only accounts about 20% of total taxes paid by most Americans. Most middle class Americans are putting 65-70% of their income towards some tax or another.
Seriously. Did you know that 0.85 cents (at least) of every gallon of gas you buy is taxes? There are equally large figures on things like tobacco, alcohol and property taxes. License and registration fees for your car. How about the 15% self employment taxes (employers pay half this amount and the employees pay the other half of Social Security taxes). There are taxes on your phone, on your cable, on your electricity, on your water, on your natural gas. We've got taxes on construction and remodels up the ass! Wanna build a modest house? Well, you'll likely pay $20-30K in permits, city fees, inspection fees, environmental resource fees, fees to use the street and a new one in my area- $300 urban growth fee per independent address (if that doesn't sound like bullshit to you I'd like to know why).
Notice I didn't even mention sales tax? I don't have any in my state. I pay taxes on my sewer and garbage bills. Read the fine print on your billing statements. You are paying taxes on every-fucking-thing. We've even got stripper taxes in more and more areas. Most professions require workers to get some kind of license to do whatever it is that you do. Whether you are a nurse or doctor or lawyer...or a beautician or a construction worker or a janitor...or a bartender or a babysitter or a painter...or a butcher or a baker or a candle stick maker. More and more states and municipalities are requiring that even simple professions must have a license to the tune of $100 or more per individual.
Wanna travel somewhere? Unless you are on a bicycle or walking you'll be taxed one way or another. Hotel taxes, airport taxes, cruise ship taxes (port fees), buses and trains have taxes and fees, too!
Income tax is just a drop in the bucket.
So, if the GDP is somewhere in the $13 trillion* neighborhood and the IRS alone collects over $4 trillion all by itself (this is outside the social security payments), states and municipalities collect another 27% of the GDP* (another $3.5 trillion). That means that $7.5 trillion* is collected from American citizens in just the form of income taxes alone. Yup, that is 58% income tax. That is before all the other little "nickel and dime" taxes we have to pay along the way.
I think maybe, that as a nation, we might be able to afford better medical care system than the one we have. We really are getting ripped off by our own government.
*these numbers are all over the internet, if you want to look them up.
RoseLeigh
06-06-2007, 02:37 PM
^^Huzzah! I totally agree. Don't forget we have tolls all over as well-I couldn't believe when I paid $5 toll in Maryland for a little tiny part of the highway! And now we have 7% sales tax (in NJ) and I know it's higher in a lot of places. We are nickel & dimed to death. I'd much rather pay 50% right off and have medical benefits (and dare I say it, free, or cheaper, college education!) than have it all sneaked (snuck?) out of my pocket.
Rose Leigh
Lysondra
06-06-2007, 05:31 PM
Woo, go Paris!
DylanAngel
06-06-2007, 05:40 PM
Paris, that is definitely something to chew on. Good job.
As for insurance, I pay about $20.00 per week for top notch major medical, dental, vision, legal, supplemental life and long term care insurance. It's one of the perks of having a regular job. (we also have 401K, pension and stock options).
I don't take any of this for granted. Especially, now that I'm getting older and problems start to rear their ugly heads.
lezmaka
06-06-2007, 05:45 PM
How did that system come about in the US? Also is it a salary sacrifice type arrangement? - do u agree to less pay for the insurance?
For all my jobs, I would have been paid the same hourly/salary whether I had insurance through the company or not. If I did, the premium was just deducted from my paycheck the same as taxes, 401k, etc. Although I'm not sure if it's deducted before taxes are calculated or after.
DylanAngel
06-06-2007, 05:53 PM
For all my jobs, I would have been paid the same hourly/salary whether I had insurance through the company or not. If I did, the premium was just deducted from my paycheck the same as taxes, 401k, etc. Although I'm not sure if it's deducted before taxes are calculated or after.
Same here. Benefits have nothing to do with my salary. They're an incentive to get me to work at their company and not their competitor.
As for the before/after taxes, my health related deductions are after taxes whereas my investment ones are before taxes.
flickad
06-07-2007, 02:09 AM
I know no one will read this, but here goes anyway...
Income tax only accounts about 20% of total taxes paid by most Americans. Most middle class Americans are putting 65-70% of their income towards some tax or another.
Seriously. Did you know that 0.85 cents (at least) of every gallon of gas you buy is taxes? There are equally large figures on things like tobacco, alcohol and property taxes. License and registration fees for your car. How about the 15% self employment taxes (employers pay half this amount and the employees pay the other half of Social Security taxes). There are taxes on your phone, on your cable, on your electricity, on your water, on your natural gas. We've got taxes on construction and remodels up the ass! Wanna build a modest house? Well, you'll likely pay $20-30K in permits, city fees, inspection fees, environmental resource fees, fees to use the street and a new one in my area- $300 urban growth fee per independent address (if that doesn't sound like bullshit to you I'd like to know why).
Notice I didn't even mention sales tax? I don't have any in my state. I pay taxes on my sewer and garbage bills. Read the fine print on your billing statements. You are paying taxes on every-fucking-thing. We've even got stripper taxes in more and more areas. Most professions require workers to get some kind of license to do whatever it is that you do. Whether you are a nurse or doctor or lawyer...or a beautician or a construction worker or a janitor...or a bartender or a babysitter or a painter...or a butcher or a baker or a candle stick maker. More and more states and municipalities are requiring that even simple professions must have a license to the tune of $100 or more per individual.
Wanna travel somewhere? Unless you are on a bicycle or walking you'll be taxed one way or another. Hotel taxes, airport taxes, cruise ship taxes (port fees), buses and trains have taxes and fees, too!
Income tax is just a drop in the bucket.
So, if the GDP is somewhere in the $13 trillion* neighborhood and the IRS alone collects over $4 trillion all by itself (this is outside the social security payments), states and municipalities collect another 27% of the GDP* (another $3.5 trillion). That means that $7.5 trillion* is collected from American citizens in just the form of income taxes alone. Yup, that is 58% income tax. That is before all the other little "nickel and dime" taxes we have to pay along the way.
I think maybe, that as a nation, we might be able to afford better medical care system than the one we have. We really are getting ripped off by our own government.
*these numbers are all over the internet, if you want to look them up.
I read it! And it's almost the same story here. Practically everything is taxed- fuel, cigarettes, alcohol, goods and services, stamp duty, car registration, drivers licenses- same shit, different country. At least we get universal Medicare and subsidised higher education out of it.
FrustratedBunny
06-07-2007, 10:32 AM
I am an independent contractor. I do not qualify for group health insurance. Since I have preexisting conditions I either would have to get a guarantee issue policy of $521/month or get on the state high risk plan that I think is like $600+ per month.
I said fuck it. I'm not paying over $6k per year for health insurance. I'll take my chances until something else arises to help us self employed people. Healthcare in the U.S. sucks ass.
sun child
06-07-2007, 01:01 PM
My best friend was not uninsured and wound up in the ICU for a blood infection. She almost died, and now she is going to probably be in debt for the rest of her life. She owes me $480, too, but I don't really mention it that much. She's my best friend, and I know that when she can, she will try to pay me. Right now she makes about $800 a month at her AmeriCorps job. She is doing good for others.