View Full Version : What do you think about a male taking his wifes last name
Jenny
06-25-2007, 02:10 PM
What do you think you did to ME in YOUR post? Acting like I'm some overlord because I'm a white guy? GMAFB.
Hyde - not for nothin', but you did trot out the white guy overlord attitude with the "traditions are nice, and why bother thinking about what they mean" post. Seriously - this is not a flame or a mean-type criticism, but guess what kind of party is normally the most comfortable with maintaining traditions with roots in domination and hegemony? (If you're thinking it is the party who is dominating - yes, that would be our theory too) And what kind of party tends to whitewash those roots - say that the reasons don't matter, but somehow the repetition of the ritual around those reasons does, and is perfectly neutral? (Same party) And finally - what kind of party sees a behaviour/tradition as neutral for one kind of person but degrading for another? (Now - have you noticed anything familiar here?)
I'm sure you didn't think about it like that - but really - you don't think that the fact that you are a guy, and you are on the traditional/historical end of "benefit" in this type of arrangement might have something to do with wanting to maintain this tradition? Especially since you seem to feel pretty openly that doing it the other way around would be pretty degrading to a guy.
Hatshepsut
06-25-2007, 02:47 PM
I think that men should have equal rights as women when it comes to changing their names. All women have to do is have their legal documents and identifications changed. Men have to go through the usual name changing process, which involves hefty fees and running an announcement in the newspaper. Why can't men have the same marriage rights?
I also hate how men who change their last names are seen as granolas or as pussies. They also have a reputation of being attention whores who want to make a statement.
datchapin
06-25-2007, 02:50 PM
I think they must not like their last names, or really like their girls last name.
Dottie Rebel
06-25-2007, 04:31 PM
Thanks, Jenny.
Mr. H, I'm not acting like you're some kind of overlord. I'm just saying that you've got a very unique and privileged outlook on the world. You have to reaize that the overall societal schema and tradions that make it up have historically worked in your favor AT THE DETRIMENT of others, so can you see how it might be a little pompous and insulting to look around and say, "Hey, looks good to me! Why change?!"
I'm not saying you, as an evil man, created this situation. Don't paint me with that brush. Some people have EARNED their disillusionment. They are entitled to it. It doesn't make them man-hating, adolescent, liberal turds to whom nothing is sacred. I LOVE traditions--ones that don't rob me of my freedom or identity, that is.
Jenny
06-25-2007, 04:43 PM
I LOVE traditions--ones that don't rob me of my freedom or identity, that is.
Me, I love the traditions that I love. If you know what I mean - I think there are enough "traditions" - both in marriage and other "areas" - that are rituals indicating something... you know - something nice, that we don't need to keep the crap ones. Conversely - one can, absolutely "rehabilitate" traditions - traditions that meant one thing can come to mean another, and that is fine and good. I just think there are limited ways of constructing/rehabilitating the name adoption - especially if one is not (as the contentious post is not) accepting it as a gender neutral practice.
Mr Hyde
06-25-2007, 08:10 PM
Hyde - not for nothin', but you did trot out the white guy overlord attitude with the "traditions are nice, and why bother thinking about what they mean" post. Seriously - this is not a flame or a mean-type criticism, but guess what kind of party is normally the most comfortable with maintaining traditions with roots in domination and hegemony? (If you're thinking it is the party who is dominating - yes, that would be our theory too) And what kind of party tends to whitewash those roots - say that the reasons don't matter, but somehow the repetition of the ritual around those reasons does, and is perfectly neutral? (Same party) And finally - what kind of party sees a behaviour/tradition as neutral for one kind of person but degrading for another? (Now - have you noticed anything familiar here?)
I'm sure you didn't think about it like that - but really - you don't think that the fact that you are a guy, and you are on the traditional/historical end of "benefit" in this type of arrangement might have something to do with wanting to maintain this tradition? Especially since you seem to feel pretty openly that doing it the other way around would be pretty degrading to a guy.
Maybe I should have elucidated on my post.
FIRST of all, I did say that I'd be ok with a woman keeping her own name in a marriage. You might have missed that.
Secondly, things like a man taking the wife's name are nothing more than symbolic BS. It does nothing to further the cause of women's rights.
And the fact that it's emasculating (which is different than degrading) is what it is. There are women in this thread that said the same thing. I'm sorry you feel differently, but guess what? Men and women are different. Men do some things, women do others, and they aren't always the same nor does one make either "lesser" than the other unless YOU allow it to be.
Dottie Rebel
06-25-2007, 09:39 PM
Ok. I'm invisible. And done. Thank god I got a hold a man who thinks for himself.
Jenny
06-25-2007, 11:44 PM
FIRST of all, I did say that I'd be ok with a woman keeping her own name in a marriage. You might have missed that.
I didn't miss that. Both Dottie and I were responding to your comments that it was emasculating and "traditional" - and the role you seem to think "tradition" has here.
Secondly, things like a man taking the wife's name are nothing more than symbolic BS. It does nothing to further the cause of women's rights.
No. Of course not. It is merely a symbol of men accepting that women's identities and matrilineality is just as valid and important and men's identities and patrilineality... oh wait - that is symbolism that DOES further the cause of women's rights, doesn't it? Oops.
And the fact that it's emasculating (which is different than degrading) is what it is. There are women in this thread that said the same thing. I'm sorry you feel differently, but guess what? Men and women are different. Men do some things, women do others, and they aren't always the same nor does one make either "lesser" than the other unless YOU allow it to be.
Oh, Hyde. You did not honestly just say "it must be true because some other women said so" did you? Okay - a) this sentence is nonsense - it has no context, and without context no meaning. It's just blather. b) The context in this case is talking about names, family leadership, if such leadership exists, "ownership" of children, family identity and family lineage - outside of saying "men do things one way and women do it another - thus men head the family and women follow - what the hell is your point? Like in this context? How do you export that cute little platitude? c) Let's think about this for a sec - HOW is it emasculating? What is emasculating about it? How does taking one's spouse's name rob one of one's masculinity? Actually try to articulate that instead of relying on bald assertion, and then see how it doesn't fit into Dottie's and my analysis. That'll be funny.
It doesn't really matter - I made the points I made because I thought you might actually be a little interested in your own framing. You're not. Nuff said. Enjoy your "traditions". While you're at it, please don't beat your wife with a stick wider than the circumference of your thumb (more traditions!).
erotictonic
06-25-2007, 11:45 PM
I think that as long as he is of healthy mind he can do whatever he wants to within the law.
CupCake
06-26-2007, 12:13 AM
Very well put Jenny8)
Buggs
06-26-2007, 03:55 PM
CupCake, are you trying to preserve your father's last name or your mother's maiden name?
Mr Hyde
06-26-2007, 04:40 PM
You're accusing me of being close-minded when you are doing the same thing.
Dottie Rebel
06-26-2007, 04:50 PM
CupCake, are you trying to preserve your father's last name or your mother's maiden name?
Neither. It's HERS. Say what you will about holding on to one man's name over claiming another. It's HER FUCKING NAME. If matrilineality were actually respected this wouldn't be an issue eventually.
Jesus I need a fucking xanax.
Buggs
06-26-2007, 05:27 PM
Calm down, Dottie Rebel. Yes, it's HER name and she can keep it if she wants. But she should not give her boyfriend an ultimatum. Obviously, HIS last name is very important to him too. I bet that CupCake's brother (may he rest in peace) would NOT be willing to give up his last name for a girl, so neither should the boyfriend.
Yekhefah
06-26-2007, 05:31 PM
My ex-husband and I fought hard over whether I'd take his name, and I caved and did it. It was really important to him that his wife take his name. I still feel like I was living a lie and trying to be someone else all those years. When we divorced I went back to my own name and I'll never change it again.
If I ever remarry and he wants to take my name, fine; if he wants to keep his own, that's fine too. But my name is fucking MINE and I'm not changing it ever again.
cherryripeboyII
06-26-2007, 07:22 PM
No one should have to change their name for marriage. Personally I don't see why they can't be combined, or a new one made. For children, if you can't decide toss a coin, and stick to the decision made.
lildreamer316
06-26-2007, 08:04 PM
My husband is taking my last name. Actually; we are not married yet for other reasons; but when we do; he will take mine.
Two reasons:
1) Trying to preserve my father's name (I'm an only child and the name is rare here;although my son has it)
2) He HATES his last name because it's his stepdad's and his stepdad is a sonofabitch.
Sinder
06-26-2007, 10:15 PM
I kept my name the first time I was married, as he had said he would take mine. It turned out that we just both kept our own name.
This time, I had a change of heart and I took my new husbands name. I would have liked to maybe keep mine, but with all the family drama going on, and me moving to the US, I felt it was a nice fresh start to to a new life.
But all in all, I know of a few men who took their wife's name becasue of personal issues with their fathers.
Buggs
06-26-2007, 11:31 PM
But CupCake's boyfriend doesn't hate his name. I'm sure he's proud of it. I'm very proud of mine. Generations of men in my family bled and died in wars with our last name. How dare she tell him that the marriage is off unless he takes her name !!! If my girlfriend gave me such an ultimatum, I would politely explain to her why it ain't gonna happen and ask her to reconsider. And if she insists, I would have to say goodbye to her no matter how much I love her. No way in hell I'm changing my last name for a girl !!! If somebody offered me millions of dollars to change my last name, I would NOT do it. I bet CupCake would take the money...
keela
06-26-2007, 11:50 PM
Dottie, that's super cool you guys combined your last names. I haven't heard of that. As for the original poster- if a woman can propose (which I'm not for) then a man can take a woman's last name (no feelings on that whatsoever).
CupCake
06-26-2007, 11:56 PM
No Buggs I'm sorry but I wouldn't...He already has 2 brothers who will carry on his name...while my name dies. Like I said I have good reason to keep my last name I want to carry it b/c my brother died, it's a tribute to him and to my family. He has given me plenty of ultimatums...Theres nothing special about his name theres no history, no nothing, the only reason he gave was that by him taking my name is would be "emasculating".WTF is so emasculating about a name!?Infact it's almost insulting that so many men feel this way.You don't look any less manly because you changed your name infact it makes you look more campasionate then anything esspecially because of my reasoning....Regardless I refuse to marry if I cannot keep my name. If a man isn't sensitve enough to understand that than adios! BTW it's a last name buggs, your not the one who fought and bled in those wars maybe your ancestors did...but you did not. So the name really shouldn't matter that much...
Buggs
06-27-2007, 12:37 AM
You are trying to fool destiny, CupCake. Good luck and be careful...
Lysondra
06-27-2007, 12:43 AM
What the fuck? Let her do what she wants. It's not like she's hurting anybody.
Buggs
06-27-2007, 12:55 AM
Morrigan, sweetie.... she's hurting her boyfriend's pride, which is the most important thing for any real man. She might as well take a knife and cut his nuts off. If he caves in, he will end up losing respect for himself. In other words, he will no longer be a man.
Lysondra
06-27-2007, 01:06 AM
Morrigan, sweetie.... she's hurting her boyfriend's pride, which is the most important thing for any real man. She might as well take a knife and cut his nuts off. If he caves in, he will end up losing respect for himself. In other words, he will no longer be a man.
Penises make men, honey. Not names.
Which probably makes you, what, a third of a man?
Penises make men, honey. Not names.
Which probably makes you, what, a third of a man?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Buggs
06-27-2007, 01:25 AM
Dear Morrigan, if penises make men, then vaginas make women. Which probably makes you a big... hm... woman.
PaigeDWinter
06-27-2007, 01:33 AM
E freakin gads does every post need to dissolve into name calling? >:(
Anyways... back onto the actual topic.... which would be opinions on the matter. Some folks will be for it, some will be against it, some won't care. Lets respect the opinions of others, even if they aren't the same opinions as we might hold. M'kay?
CupCake
06-27-2007, 01:37 AM
Buggs thats sounds very insecure, if a name takes away a mans pride then hes not much of a man at all. Once again another man who bealieves that taking a womens names is emasculating... very irrational, and not very logical at all.
PaigeDWinter
06-27-2007, 01:39 AM
Buggs thats sounds very insecure, if a name takes away a mans pride then hes not much of a man at all. Once again another man who bealieves that taking a womens names is emasculating... very irrational, and not very logical at all.
Everyone has their hangups. Namesakes and heritage have been important to some folks for a very long time. Not that big of a thing, IMHO. Then again, there are folks who think that crying is emasculating, or expressing emotion in public, or hell... even wearing certain colors! It happens. ;D
Lysondra
06-27-2007, 02:01 AM
What I don't understand is why suddenly a bunch of men are coming onto a women's board comprised mainly of *gasp* women to tell us how emasculating we're being while typing on a pink forum. I mean... really.
PaigeDWinter
06-27-2007, 02:09 AM
What I don't understand is why suddenly a bunch of men are coming onto a women's board comprised mainly of *gasp* women to tell us how emasculating we're being while typing on a pink forum. I mean... really.
Because it still IS an open forum, and the OP asked for opinions on the subject, not just opinions that you will like. And beyond that, out of the 8 - 9 guys who responded, one of which was the OP to begin with, only SOME said anything about emasculation. There is no bunch of guys coming here and telling "us" how emasculating we're being. IN fact, some of the males who responded to this thread have been members for a while.
SO like I said.... back onto the topic. Opinions about who takes which name.
>:(
PaigeDWinter
06-27-2007, 02:13 AM
SO... yes. I just mused about this with my male, for kicks. He actually has his mom's maiden name. Hell, he doesn't even know his real dad's name to begin with. It's groovy with him. Me? I'd take the dude's name probably. I don't care about it really, but it's the norm and I have no real reason to do otherwise. For a while I wanted to take my mom's maiden name... but I've since then come to better terms with my biological dad... enough to like his name again lol. I love heritage and such, but I'm not gonna cling to something as trivial as a name. And when I say trivial, I really only mean trivial to me. I know a lot of folks who hold namesakes important. Hell, my real dad was bummed for a while since he had no sons to pass on the name to. It's all good.
thefrog
06-27-2007, 02:13 AM
as long as my last name is DWinter i dont care ... :lovestruc
PaigeDWinter
06-27-2007, 02:17 AM
as long as my last name is DWinter i dont care ... :lovestruc
Hehehee! I had some folks once or twice ask if I would ever legally change my last name to D'Winter. It's a fun name, but probably not. :D
thefrog
06-27-2007, 02:22 AM
i will answear to any name you give me :worship:
miss Paige..
name is aname as long as i care about the person im with i dont care.
PaigeDWinter
06-27-2007, 02:24 AM
name is aname as long as i care about the person im with i dont care.
What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
;D;D;D
Kaylinn
06-27-2007, 02:29 AM
My friend took her husband's last name, however, her name was going to die with her, as there were no other male children in her family. So when they had a son, she gave her son her maiden name.
Nice idea...but this poor kid has a last name different than the rest of his family.
whch only makes him feel further excluded from the family.
( he isn't all to loved to begin with, after the addition of 2 little sisters, but that's another story)
Lysondra
06-27-2007, 02:55 AM
Because it still IS an open forum, and the OP asked for opinions on the subject, not just opinions that you will like. And beyond that, out of the 8 - 9 guys who responded, one of which was the OP to begin with, only SOME said anything about emasculation. There is no bunch of guys coming here and telling "us" how emasculating we're being. IN fact, some of the males who responded to this thread have been members for a while.
SO like I said.... back onto the topic. Opinions about who takes which name.
>:(
I'm sorry.
:-[
Anyway, yes. I believe people should have the right to do their own thing wihin the confines of the law, and depending on morality, outside as well.
thefrog
06-27-2007, 03:28 AM
He has given me plenty of ultimatums...Theres nothing special about his name theres no history, no nothing, the only reason he gave was that by him taking my name is would be "emasculating"...
the only thing i think that makes me a-- MAN-- is that i take care of me and Mine. being a girl friend, a fiancee, a wife and /or a child. what makes them happy and safe makes me happy.
kittenkat
06-27-2007, 05:12 AM
Wow... just wow.
If a guy's masculinity is diminished by taking the wife's last name... I swear to god- sometimes, it's the men that think so little of masculinity by reducing it to some kind of frail little flower that gets utterly destroyed by the bully monster of name-changing, pixel dust and eyeliner.
another reason how sexist gender ideals really screw people in the head.
Jenny
06-27-2007, 07:51 AM
You're accusing me of being close-minded when you are doing the same thing.
Who's doing that? Because I'm accusing you of being unwilling to examine your framing, not close mindedness. Like really - why the reluctance to articulate how it is "emasculating"? Just dig into that word a little and tell us what you mean by it - and I don't mean vagaries like "men do things one way"; I mean like "taking a woman last name would emasculate a man because...." Then - juxtapose that with what you said about tradition, and the dismissiveness with which you met Dottie's initial comments. I'll cop to feeling a little dismissive - just because I seriously doubt you're going to be the one to come up with a rational, non-sexist and viable explanation for why this tradition is the natural order. If you do - hey I'm willing to be impressed.
BTW - I would never get married. If I did get married I wouldn't insist my husband take my last name - although if he wanted the same last name as his children, he would be welcome to. I was irked by the claim that changing one's name is neutral for women, but not for men.
Madcap
06-27-2007, 11:07 AM
If I did get married I wouldn't insist my husband take my last name - although if he wanted the same last name as his children, he would be welcome to.
Why, Jenny, how kind of you. LOL! :D
Jenny
06-27-2007, 11:14 AM
Why, Jenny, how kind of you. LOL! :DYou mock me, but it is still (surprisingly to me) a very live issue with a lot of men.
I have two friends who just got married; one was kind of the sort that always defined herself by her boyfriend anyway, so she was actually looking forward to the name change (but of course, there was a reason the guy wanted to date and eventually marry a woman who defined herself largely by her relationship to him) but the other one was reluctant to give up her name. Both guys told me straight out that they would be upset if their wives didn't take their names. The second girl did it, but because the guy made a big thing over it and she didn't want to end a relationship over the issue.
Now - you might not share their sentiment, but I doubt the sentiment surprises you, and I doubt you see the guys as being controlling or robbing the women of their gynility in the same way you would if I did make a man taking my last name a deal breaker - or would you? Be honest.
Madcap
06-27-2007, 11:24 AM
You mock me, but it is still (surprisingly to me) a very live issue with a lot of men.
I was teasing, sure.
I have two friends who just got married; one was kind of the sort that always defined herself by her boyfriend anyway, so she was actually looking forward to the name change (but of course, there was a reason the guy wanted to date and eventually marry a woman who defined herself largely by her relationship to him)
I know a guy like that. Strictly dates spineless jellyfish women that he can control and for the life of him can't see why i wouldn't want that. But then he's also a total Mysogynist. And i'm not just tossing around words, here, he really is.
Now - you might not share their sentiment, but I doubt the sentiment surprises you, and I doubt you see the guys as being controlling or robbing the women of their gynility in the same way you would if I did make a man taking my last name a deal breaker - or would you? Be honest.
Nope, i don't share it. Nope, it doesn't surprise me. The first guy probably has issues above and beyond 'controlling' (rather like the guy i know who dates invertibrates), the second guy was seriously being controlling and his new wife will have some serious shit on her hands down the road. Guy #2 robbed his fiancee, guy #1's fiancee probably didn't have a whole lot to rob. If i was with you and you made it a deal breaker (which you didn't), i don't know.
Actually, your post reminded me of something in my own life that was pretty stupid. But at the time i was busy screaming for a diapy change and couldn't interject any thoughts on it. Maybe i'll get into it.
Dottie Rebel
06-27-2007, 03:07 PM
If asking a man to give his up his name is taking away his pride, what is asking a woman to give up her name? OH! I forgot. It's a special GIFT to take your husband's name! THAT'S your pride. K. Got it now.
kittenkat
06-27-2007, 03:15 PM
I was irked by the claim that changing one's name is neutral for women, but not for men.
Ditto. you think changing last names = something you as an individual don't want to do, period? Fine. You think it's only dumb if a certain gender does it? Why? If the reason that you think it breaks the fragile little masculinity bubble, then you think very little of men.
Hatshepsut
06-27-2007, 03:41 PM
Penises make men, honey. Not names.
Which probably makes you, what, a third of a man?
ROFLMAO!
Hehe, it's always the macho men who are the most insecure about petty threads to their self-perceived macho-tude. For example, I once dated a foreign guy who thought that he was hot shit because he thought that it was the man's job to provide, and that I should stand by whatever decision he made because the man is the leader and women should obey. I snorted, told him he was stupid, and parted ways. I recently ran into him. He knocked up his girlfriend and married her, and he is completely pussywhipped. She looks up the numbers on his cell phone to make sure he's not cheating, she's high maintenance and is always baiting him in emotional diarrhea situations, etc, and he just takes it. She's even cheated on him, but has her cake and eats it too. She's not allowed to be responsible for her actions because she says so. I made a comment about how much he was NOT living up to his ideals of, "Me man, me boss." He changed the subject, and I laughed and told him that it served him right that he was too stupid to wear a condom, especially with such a freaky bitch.
Real men are secure with themselves. They know that they have their own identities, and that women have theirs.
Paintbaby
06-27-2007, 03:45 PM
Lol. Oh, this thread. But as usual, Jenny nails it.
My name is mine, I'm proud of my family history, and I'm keeping it. Any husband-type thing that comes along can keep his. If he throws a hissy-fit, gets shrill and hysterical about it, and starts going on about his wounded masculinity, then he isn't man enough to marry me in the first place. Seriously. If he is that skeeved by the little things and has that big of a sense of entitlement about what his expectations of me are, I would end up eating him alive, anyhow. My identity as a person doesn't change just because there would be someone new to share my life with. My name is part of that identity.
Names are very personal. I don't go for the whole "it's tradition, and therefore it is right" argument. People should do what they want, but noone has the right to expect another person to change their name.
My opinion.
Hatshepsut
06-27-2007, 03:49 PM
I'm a woman, and am greatly inferior to men. My role is to complement my husband. I should help him make decisions, but stand by his word no matter what.
VOMIT
Last time I checked here in America, women and men alike are consenting adults with equal rights. Therefore, they can decide their name status. Why is it always the woman who is expected to make the sacrifices, like changing her name, giving up the career to raise kids, etc?
I'm keeping my name as well. It would be a pain in the ass to change all my documents.