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carolina6
07-19-2007, 02:56 AM
I have seen the baseball hat thing, but never nude. I'm sure girls do it nude, but I'm also pretty sure it's not to dry off their vaginas, it's just a party trick. I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten wet at work, and most of the time it was cause I was doing a double dance with a hot girl or dancing for a female customer.

This guy obviously visited one hole in the wall club that had very few rules or good clientele, asked one girl how much she made (20k/yr) and split. Way to summarize the whole industry.

Customers make it so obvious sometimes that they think poorly of you. Sometimes I just can't take it, but usually I console myself by thinking of how their opinions of my lifestyle don't change the fact that they're still giving me money. The fact that the money is all that consoles me makes me think I'm losing my soul, but that's another topic for another thread :)

juggernutz
07-19-2007, 06:42 AM
dancers are for sale-- just not necessarily in the specific way that many customers would prefer, nor for the specific amounts of money said customers would prefer to pay.

That's like saying my Doctor or Lawyer is for sale. What I expect from a dancer is her time and willingness to entertain me in exchange for money. Just like I expect time and legal expertise from my Lawyer in exchange for money.

Jenny
07-19-2007, 06:53 AM
That's like saying my Doctor or Lawyer is for sale. What I expect from a dancer is her time and willingness to entertain me in exchange for money. Just like I expect time and legal expertise from my Lawyer in exchange for money.
Well it would be, except that doctors and lawyers aren't sex workers, and strippers are. So if we are in a discussion of the sale of sexuality, ours is for sale - just not in the same way as prostitutes.

As I said I think prostitute is a fairly fluid term, subject to more contextual understanding that what we might normally realize. I think it is fairly safe to say though, that although people look down on strippers as sex workers, that they do understand, intuitively or otherwise, the difference between being a prostitute and being a stripper. I think the challenge to articulate the difference can be an interesting exercise - like preconceptions and defining context, oh, fascinating - but I don't think there is a lot of genuine confusion.

By the way - although I personally think that his description of his methodology was shoddy, incomplete and peripheral, the author does, in his article limit the scope of what he is portraying. I actually think any reasonably thinking person would realize that he had not done a global survey of the industry.

A favorite trick of one particularly “wet” dancer is to steal a baseball cap off the head of a stage-side client and wipe it between her legs.


The contested nature of nude dancing is partially reflected in the clientele. Customers at topless bars are mostly white-collar middle-class men over 29 years of age. Customers at the nude cabarets are mostly bluecollar men under the age of 29.


Estimates for an average week ranged from $1600 over three days to $500 over five days. As with salespeople elsewhere, remuneration for the personal services the dancers offer seems to vary widely. Notable is the fact that a young single mother with little education can make $25,000 to $75,000 a year without actually prostituting herself.
(and please don't anyone get all up in arms about the stereotype of uneducated single mothers. After a certain point it is a statistical fact, and not a stereotype.)


A variety of considerations lead to the conclusion that nude dancing constitutes a symbolic form of class opposition to the dominant neo-puritan norms. There is the intensifying downward class pressure on undereducated dancers, some of whom would otherwise make their livings by engaging in naked penetration rather than nude performance. The audience consists mostly of working-class and younger men as opposed to the more middle-class and middle-aged patrons at topless bars.

I find it interesting that we really don't want to read anything critical about the industry. I mean, we kind of freak out whenever it is submitted to any kind of real analysis, that doesn't centre around some airy fairy "exotic dancing is so much fun" premise. Not to say that we should accept all "exotic dancing involves getting rodents thrown at you on stage" analyses either, but there has to be some kind of middle ground there.

mollyzmoon
07-19-2007, 07:53 AM
After I read the whole article, I was more unhappy with the text book than the one guy they referenced. In his whole thing it's clear he's talking about one city, at one time, and he allows for differences that aren't there in the selected text we read.

I can't understand why they chose to select the portions of the text they did, however. They took it out of context and did present it as a global view, which is weird. That they didn't even mention table dancing, which he does, was also strange. But whatever.

Like, of all the relevant bits, why did they choose those bits? I don't mind critical analysis either, but this one little page of our textbook doesn't really jive with reality.

LatinaRose
07-19-2007, 10:51 AM
I'd write a letter to the publisher of that textbook, telling him your feelings on the matter. That information is completely out-of-line, especially when you consider that a lot of clubs are just topless and we do nothing like what was described. Shit, I barely give a guy attention at the stage, I certainly never "stroke" myself for anyone.

I also think this is your best bet. Maybe they'll update their info and the next round of guys that read it won't expect to see a chick masturbate at the stage.

Bella21
07-19-2007, 11:21 AM
First of all, thanks to Jenny for the article. :) I haven't read it entirely yet... but from what I have read, it definately seems biased (I quoted a few of my favorites below). That's fine. It's far from a scientific study, and that's obvious. However, from what Molly has said, it seems that the textbook is parading it around like it is. I was a psych major and I guess I just assumed that sociology was also based on some sort of science. Like, most of my psych books would have been like, "Here's a study that shows this... but here's a study that shows THIS". Are there really no other studies that the textbook could have incorporated to make it more balanced? I tell you what, if *I* were a researcher, I'd TOTALLY do all my work on strip clubs. }:D



I find it interesting that we really don't want to read anything critical about the industry. I mean, we kind of freak out whenever it is submitted to any kind of real analysis, that doesn't centre around some airy fairy "exotic dancing is so much fun" premise. Not to say that we should accept all "exotic dancing involves getting rodents thrown at you on stage" analyses either, but there has to be some kind of middle ground there.

Well... I dunno... I think it would have surprising to hear something negative but true. Like, dancing can be profitable but the girls are commonly surrounded by drug and alcohol abuse... customers can be abusive... yadda yadda.





A variety of considerations lead to the conclusion
that nude dancing constitutes a symbolic form of class
opposition to the dominant neo-puritan norms.


That's the first sentance to his conclusion. He's not saying, "My findings SUGGEST..." He's just saying, "This is the answer..."



There is the intensifying downward class pressure on undereducated dancers, some of whom would otherwise make their livings by engaging in naked penetration rather than nude performance.


... and that's just dumb and meant to bias the article even more. Yea, SOME would have sex for money, some would work at Burger King, and some would go into car detailing. Sheesh.

Optimist
07-19-2007, 11:27 AM
Well it would be, except that doctors and lawyers aren't sex workers, and strippers are. So if we are in a discussion of the sale of sexuality, ours is for sale - just not in the same way as prostitutes.

As I said I think prostitute is a fairly fluid term, subject to more contextual understanding that what we might normally realize. I think it is fairly safe to say though, that although people look down on strippers as sex workers, that they do understand, intuitively or otherwise, the difference between being a prostitute and being a stripper. I think the challenge to articulate the difference can be an interesting exercise - like preconceptions and defining context, oh, fascinating - but I don't think there is a lot of genuine confusion.

I think you overestimate the level of fairness and interest the average citizen brings to judging us. I've heard more people say we have to be selling more than dances to make that much money than those who believe there's no intercourse for money.


I find it interesting that we really don't want to read anything critical about the industry. I mean, we kind of freak out whenever it is submitted to any kind of real analysis, that doesn't centre around some airy fairy "exotic dancing is so much fun" premise. Not to say that we should accept all "exotic dancing involves getting rodents thrown at you on stage" analyses either, but there has to be some kind of middle ground there.

I think you made a major incorrect leap there. There are plenty of threads where we bitch and moan about the job and agree with those who discuss the real ups and downs. What he wrote was specific to one event with one performer. It can't be considered "any kind of real analysis".

Jenny
07-19-2007, 02:12 PM
That's the first sentance to his conclusion. He's not saying, "My findings SUGGEST..." He's just saying, "This is the answer..."
Okay, I do see what you are saying here, but I think that might be more a stylistic issue than anything. Like, it is an academic journal, intended for a certain audience who will understand what he means by "conclusion" and it is not the same kind of certainty with which, for example, a mathematician uses the term.


... and that's just dumb and meant to bias the article even more. Yea, SOME would have sex for money, some would work at Burger King, and some would go into car detailing. Sheesh.
Well he did say "some"; and you don't think that maybe there is something to that? I think as well that you sort of decontextualized the sentence - it gets its meaning from the sentence before.


I think you overestimate the level of fairness and interest the average citizen brings to judging us. I've heard more people say we have to be selling more than dances to make that much money than those who believe there's no intercourse for money.
Perhaps you are right - I think really what I was getting at is that people are conflating the term "sex worker" with "prostitute" and that strippers do belong under the umbrella of sex worker, and that is where the confusion is coming in. I wasn't really trying to say that nobody thought strippers ever had sex for money or that public perception was correct (or for that matter incorrect). I can see where I may have been unclear, though.


I think you made a major incorrect leap there. There are plenty of threads where we bitch and moan about the job and agree with those who discuss the real ups and downs. What he wrote was specific to one event with one performer. It can't be considered "any kind of real analysis".
Well, technically, while that was an anecdote it was certainly situated in a larger analytical framework. And, while I'm not sure I agree with his conclusions or the way the paper is featured (I don't think there is a real excuse to leave out what methodology the author did discuss) I don't think any reasonable academic person would assume that it was a global study. I mean - that would make no sense.

I didn't mean to imply that we never complain, but I do think there is a real unwillingness to listen to analytical criticism of the industry. I will admit that I get my back up when I read some of sheerly on a "I know more about this than you why the hell are you writing an article" basis, and I'm not trying to say that every criticism is apt. But I don't like either that we, as a body, immediately dismiss anything that concludes or shows the possibility of the "bad side" of stripping. Like we're okay as long they are anecdotal complaints - but the second they are placed in a framework of analysis intended either for the mainstream or just a different stream than us, I think we freak out a little. Just me? Nobody else sees this at all?

Asurfael
07-19-2007, 02:54 PM
Jenny, well said. It's like when somebody says "you can sleep with a stripper for 300$" a lot of strippers would yell out with a "well then she's a whore not a stripper!" The fact that somebody chooses to also sell actual sex doesn't make them any less of a stripper either. Working at a striptease club doesn't automatically make you the stripper, whether it's by our definition or the customer's definition. There's such a wide range of girls working in the industry worldwide.

Here in Finland we're a bit on the raunchier side than in the US, like it's standard practice that the customers are allowed to masturbate during a VIP (not during a lapdance of course!). I don't like it but I'm not allowed to tell them they can't do it if I want to work in those clubs. I've only come across one club in Finland that didn't allow masturbation at their VIPs and that one's closed down now.

I've also been known to throw a dildo show on stage if the club has asked for something extra - note that I use a fresh clean condom on the dildo and never put unwashed hands anywhere near my kitty, and also I do not touch the pole afterwards but go straight to the back room without touching anything to dispose of the condom and wash my hands. It requires that you take quite a few things into consideration but you can do even penetrative shows on stage without it being unhygienic. I find it sad how often times I get tipped so much more for those shows than I do for proper pole dancing.

I know some girls at my club do offer extras after work hours (thank God it's not allowed at work) and I know some who promise to, take the money and leave the customer waiting for nothing. Personally I could never ever do that but more power to the girls who can I suppose. As long as they're comfortable with it I really don't think they're eating away my income because I'm not offering what they're offering anyway. If a customer tells me some girl offered him the full service for 80 euros and he asks me why I take the same just for a 10-minute lapdance then I tell him that if he values full service more then maybe he ought to go back to that girl. The whole holier than thou attitude is just crap. I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute.

lildreamer316
07-19-2007, 03:33 PM
I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute.

NOMINATED FOR QUOTE OF THE MUTHAFUCKIN' YEAR.:highfive:

Melonie
07-19-2007, 04:08 PM
Sadly that reminds me of my college edumacation. Once my Human Sexuality professor told us (in reference to the Duke rape case) that exotic dancers want to be raped.

Well, putting this together with the textbook pretty much compromises a 'consensus' of experts on the subject of 'strippers', doesn't it ? Ever wonder whether or not other topics which are taught as part of an approved curriculum, and which have developed from a similar 'concensus' of experts, might also be 'less than objective' ???

Jenny
07-19-2007, 04:27 PM
Well, putting this together with the textbook pretty much compromises a 'consensus' of experts on the subject of 'strippers', doesn't it ? No. Like I said - no reasonable academic person would assume that a sociological study took place in a vacuum of "someplace in general" and very few people would assume that it took place in "the United States". While other people might not question it the same way we would, I think it is safe to assume that readers are meant to understand that the study took place "somewhere" and "sometime". I think there was one actual and blatant mischaracterization - when it took Schiff's article to mean that strip club customers were "blue collar", when the article specifically differentiates between nude clubs, which he claims attract a blue collar clientele and topless clubs which attract a white collar clientele. And since that is sort of the major point of the article and his conclusion, I don't think there is much of an excuse for that.

Anyway Molly - you are now armed. You may go back to class and instead of saying "but that isn't my experience" point out disparity between the article and how it presented the facts and how the textbook used them. Won't that be exciting?

miabella
07-19-2007, 09:21 PM
Nah. I'm more like Blockbuster. You can rent me and watch me but you can never own me.

um, you can buy movies at blockbuster. i just got 4/20$ the other day...

miabella
07-19-2007, 09:23 PM
That's like saying my Doctor or Lawyer is for sale. What I expect from a dancer is her time and willingness to entertain me in exchange for money. Just like I expect time and legal expertise from my Lawyer in exchange for money.


close, a fair analogy in respects other than this. prostitution refers to sexual transactions with pricetags-- hence, the realm containing sexwork. inciting to desire is a sexual transaction, though again not the specific transaction(s) some customers would prefer to be paying for.

miabella
07-19-2007, 09:31 PM
No. Like I said - no reasonable academic person would assume that a sociological study took place in a vacuum of "someplace in general" and very few people would assume that it took place in "the United States". While other people might not question it the same way we would, I think it is safe to assume that readers are meant to understand that the study took place "somewhere" and "sometime". I think there was one actual and blatant mischaracterization - when it took Schiff's article to mean that strip club customers were "blue collar", when the article specifically differentiates between nude clubs, which he claims attract a blue collar clientele and topless clubs which attract a white collar clientele. And since that is sort of the major point of the article and his conclusion, I don't think there is much of an excuse for that.

Anyway Molly - you are now armed. You may go back to class and instead of saying "but that isn't my experience" point out disparity between the article and how it presented the facts and how the textbook used them. Won't that be exciting?

actually, jenny, the methodology of sexwork research is one of my pet peeves. sociology is already horrid at expecting people to draw conclusions of the 'majority' based on 15 people and so forth. and it is even worse with sexwork. like drawing from the population of streetwalkers and extrapolating, to all sexworkers even though escorting and stripping contain a larger portion of girls performing sex acts for money. or making broad claims about strippers based on women you knew in a given city who were willing to take your money to talk about stripping (the notorious study oft-mentioned here).

it is even more shoddy than sleep research (which is pretty shoddy in terms of statistically valid sampling). i know how to construct valid studies (especially the getting enough representative subjects part), but i don't know how i would get anyone to give me money to provide something resembling accurate numbers on stripping, prostitution, porn, phonesex, bdsm for pay services, etc.

maybe i should resume club dancing (stage-only of course) to pay for it all myself.......

PaigeDWinter
07-19-2007, 11:19 PM
Nah. I'm more like Blockbuster. You can rent me and watch me but you can never own me.

Not anymore! If you're kept out too long, you're sold to the customer! Uh oh! ;)





But seriously. Even though in some states, lap dances ARE considered prostitution, what was quoted from that text book makes me want to yack. Badly.

Dragonlexie
07-19-2007, 11:29 PM
Wow that kinda sucks...hmmm... Stupid labels that don't mean anything you probably spend a lot of time telling people you are a stripper not a hooker... I mean there is a difference.

Jenny
07-20-2007, 06:56 AM
actually, jenny, the methodology of sexwork research is one of my pet peeves. sociology is already horrid at expecting people to draw conclusions of the 'majority' based on 15 people and so forth.I think that was my point - that a "conclusion" in sociology is a little softer than in other fields, and that it is a little more specific. I'm not telling you to like it.

200singles
07-20-2007, 09:40 AM
Nah. I'm more like Blockbuster. You can rent me and watch me but you can never own me.Not anymore! If you're kept out too long, you're sold to the customer! Uh oh! ;)

and at a premium too - imagine that - paying a premium to own something already used and handled by god knows how many people before you....wait a minute.....are we still talking about the same thing here?

PaigeDWinter
07-20-2007, 03:24 PM
and at a premium too - imagine that - paying a premium to own something already used and handled by god knows how many people before you....wait a minute.....are we still talking about the same thing here?



Doesn't matter which we're talking about, it isn't at a premium. ;D

200singles
07-20-2007, 06:06 PM
Doesn't matter which we're talking about, it isn't at a premium. ;D

Ya well, dont forget, you already paid $5 to rent it on top of that

Lysondra
07-20-2007, 06:35 PM
um, you can buy movies at blockbuster. i just got 4/20$ the other day...

Yeah but the movies you can buy are the old ones who have been around the block too much and can't afford to live being rented and watched anymore.

Which just means you should retire before you're too old. :P

gypsy_girlchild
07-20-2007, 07:34 PM
Ya well, dont forget, you already paid $5 to rent it on top of that
I guess that's called the entrance fee..

RoseWhite
07-20-2007, 07:36 PM
NOMINATED FOR QUOTE OF THE MUTHAFUCKIN' YEAR.:highfive:

I agree! Asurfael, I found that not only high-five-worthy, but also very informative. I've never been to Finland or to a club that works that way; it's interesting to hear about how you operate within those dynamics. And we've all experienced how different standards and expectations affect us when we move between clubs and between areas.

Anyway, much appreciated. Hope you don't mind if I quote you. ;D

PaigeDWinter
07-20-2007, 10:07 PM
Ya well, dont forget, you already paid $5 to rent it on top of that


Yeah so gosh lesse... $4.76 + anywhere from $5.99 to $14.99 for something that costs $21.99 brand new... Yeah, total rip off! :rotfl:





Gee I'd hate to see that kinda math figure into lapdances LMAO!!

podx
07-20-2007, 10:52 PM
I doubt that a college professor or a college textbook knows much about a sex profession. Unless she has experience and hasn't subscribed to marxist class exploitation junk science. A lot of sociology is plain junk. Get your A and when in college ask around about the instructor's before you take a class. You're paying them to strip their brains for you. It's tough for eggheads to understand sex work. They live in different worlds.

People denigrate stripping yet everyone wants to be one or be with one these days. Even that uptight church pastor. I suppose if it didn't have such a naughty reputation it wouldn't be as appealing.

200singles
07-21-2007, 05:39 AM
Yeah so gosh lesse... $4.76 + anywhere from $5.99 to $14.99 for something that costs $21.99 brand new... Yeah, total rip off! :rotfl:


Gee I'd hate to see that kinda math figure into lapdances LMAO!!

When I can get 3 or 4 for $20, it kinda is :)
and as you say, now if I can only transcend that math into lapdances ... :O

242_fair
07-21-2007, 12:59 PM
Molly, why are you taking all these weird courses that don't really prepare you for a career?

Not to be rude, I am sure we will meet one day face to face, so I don't want to come off as a total bitch... but

All these courses do is cause you to be more introspective and contemplative, this does not help you get a job. You are taking a class called 'Canadian Short Stories', what kind of a major do you have?

Because your courses all sound like bar-room chat and not academic at all. What about science or business or accounting (or anything an employer might see as 'useful' education)?

Like one day you might want to show your transcript to a prospective employer, maybe?

cameron_keys
07-21-2007, 01:26 PM
242..I dont know about Molly's school...but I know when I went to college(hippie school that I went to!) we were required to take a certain number of "g" courses. Basically..courses that had no real life use and nothing to do with your major. Really acedemic classes like "history of trees" and "the '60's" (seriously...I took those classes!)

Bella21
07-21-2007, 02:57 PM
Yea, you're required to take a variety of classes, regardless of your major. Plus, it helps to take easy classes to bump your GPA.

Not that I'm saying sociology is easy... that depends on the class and person. But, I've taken some pretty useless classes before just because I knew it was an easy A.

mollyzmoon
07-21-2007, 04:14 PM
Oh 242, I'm getting an Arts degree. My major is Philosophy, and my minor is English. I don't pretend that this will get me a job, except one of those intro government joke things that everyone gets in Ottawa, if you can parler Francais, of course.

Originally I wanted to go to law school after the BA, and then I thought maybe journalism or grad school, and now I think I might just finish this sucker and take courses for real estate.

I'm not sorry about the school I've taken though. I mean, sociology can be kinda whatever, but mostly I take philosophy. I have learned so much about the world, people, the way we think, how we know what we know, ethics, stuff like that. It's not like you can waltz into a Kant seminar and say "Critique of Pure Reason, shmeason".

I also don't mean this in a bitchy way, but don't worry that I am wasting my time. I prefer to look at it from the perspective that I am 'taking my time'. Philosophy does depress me utterly sometimes, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I want to know this stuff, and it sets me up to look at my options from a better point of view than I would otherwise have. I am jumbled and funny and definitely need the guidance of all these weirdo books.

I'll get a job someday, but I have no ambition to be a millionaire.

And I've taken as many high level seminars as I could take; my CGPA is 8.8 (I don't know what that transfers to in the other systems, but it's well over Dean's List here)...ehh, I think my transcript looks ok.

If worse comes to worse and I'm stuck in a few years, I can easily go back and do something else. Thank god for booty-shaking money in the bank.

242_fair
07-22-2007, 09:53 AM
Well you know, a BA with high grades in any subject is the perfect launching pad for Law School.

Have you thought about taking the LSAT, just to keep that option open?

Ottawa has an amazing law school. Actually they are one of the few Canadian schools to have a part time option, and they are famous for securing their students clerking jobs at the federal level. Also their IP Law program is the best of Canada.

The first year dean (the guy) is really nice. Maybe you should take a tour of the school, they will give ya one any day during the summer. All you have to do is ask.

ITgirl
08-27-2007, 11:37 AM
I'm surprised you are not using a Masters & Johnson text for the study of sex workers. They have the most respected researc in the industry. It would behoove you to search online and present a few alternatives to the text you currently use.