Log in

View Full Version : The word "Hustle"



Pages : 1 [2] 3 4

Lapaholic
07-29-2007, 05:57 PM
Actually I think the actor/actress analogy is good. Plus we are actors in the play too. ( Appearing as THE CUSTY is Lapaholic) .... You havent BSd a dancer? Its a game in that sense and we both participate.

And I woundnt care if a dancer trashes me when we were done. SO long as the next time I come in she greets me like Im her new best friend, gives me a great LD and doesnt try to rip me off. I even like being hustled ( ie the hustle where they are trying to convince me to get a dance - not the kind where they are ripping me off!!!) especially when they do it right. Gotten many a fine LD that way. I mean really, if she hates me in reality - I dont care.. Am i too cynical???

mr_punk
07-29-2007, 07:11 PM
Most people would define a dancer's "hustle" as the way she goes about earning money. She may use fake emotional/sexual intimacy or friendlyness to get you to buy dances.well, i wouldn't strictly define it as such. perhaps, a stripper would, but i'm no stripper.

I don't consider a dancer's hustle to be a deception or a lie.like the OP says, it isn't necessarily a deception, but that doesn't mean it can't be.

As far as professions go, I've been ripped off by many professions (mechanics, dentists, lawyers, etc.), and I've felt that I've been ripped off by oil, cable, cell phone companies, etc.IOW, you felt as if you were hustled. which according to you, very rarely happens in a sc because you've never been ripped off and the industry is run by what? girls scouts and mormons?

I think that women in bidness are far more honest and ethical than men. Women tend to be more kind-hearted and aren't known to be thieves (exceptions, of course).<snicker> oy vey..talk about deifying and giving it away for free.

I consider these professions, Dentists, Lawyers, and Politicians, to be organized crime.hmmm...IIRC, jenny is studying Law. why i believe she attends The Sal "Big Pussy" Bonpensiero School of Law (aka The Big P). who knew she was in the canadian mob. anyway, you better keep that under your hat or you might find yourself wearing boots made of curling stones.

James Bond
07-29-2007, 08:35 PM
well, i wouldn't strictly define it as such. perhaps, a stripper would, but i'm no stripper.
like the OP says, it isn't necessarily a deception, but that doesn't mean it can't be.

IOW, you felt as if you were hustled. which according to you, very rarely happens in a sc because you've never been ripped off and the industry is run by what? girls scouts and mormons?

<snicker> oy vey..talk about deifying and giving it away for free.
hmmm...IIRC, jenny is studying Law. why i believe she attends The Sal "Big Pussy" Bonpensiero School of Law (aka The Big P). who knew she was in the canadian mob. anyway, you better keep that under your hat or you might find yourself wearing boots made of curling stones.

In most of my posts, there's always exceptions to the rule when I make a blanket statement. I try to put in parenthesis that there are exceptions, but people will have to assume there are exceptions to every rule. There a some good lawyers, dentists, and politicians. I said in the post that there are some good ones.

If some guys think that the SC business is dishonest, then why do they keep going there?

A dancer's hustle and lap dances are the essence of the SC business. That's what they're selling, and that's what the customers are buying. The dancer's hustle makes the customer feel better and can be thought of as being therapeutic.

Would the customer prefer the dancer to walk up to him and tell him what she really thinks of him and point out his deficiencies, or would they like the dancer to be seductive, positive, and act like the customer is her best friend. He'd prefer the latter.

OK, so if you want the dancer to be "honest" with the customer, what do you want her to tell him? That she thinks he's an asshole. How many dances do you think she'd sell? Then he'd be on SW telling what a bitch that dancer was for calling him an asshole.

What do you want the dancer to be "honest" about?

mr_punk
07-29-2007, 10:36 PM
If some guys think that the SC business is dishonest, then why do they keep going there?you tell me. i mean, you're the one keeping track of dances while drunk. obviously, it's not as honest as a profession as you claim. yet, there you are.

OK, so if you want the dancer to be "honest" with the customer, what do you want her to tell him? That she thinks he's an asshole. How many dances do you think she'd sell? Then he'd be on SW telling what a bitch that dancer was for calling him an asshole.honest? LOL...do they grow you guys on a special farm or something? what makes you think i'm even remotely implying the genuineness of the stripper feelings towards the customer is being deceptive? i'm not. IOW, a stripper grabbing my 3 incher and telling me that i have a big dick isn't being deceptive. after all, i do have a ruler. OTOH, a stripper padding the count is being deceptive and both are a hustle in the sc.

James Bond
07-29-2007, 11:38 PM
you tell me. i mean, you're the one keeping track of dances while drunk. obviously, it's not as honest as a profession as you claim. yet, there you are.


honest? LOL...do they grow you guys on a special farm or something? what makes you think i'm even remotely implying the genuineness of the stripper feelings towards the customer is being deceptive? i'm not. IOW, a stripper grabbing my 3 incher and telling me that i have a big dick isn't being deceptive. after all, i do have a ruler. OTOH, a stripper padding the count is being deceptive and both are a hustle in the sc.

I keep track of dances so I know how many I've had and how many more I'm going to get. I also count the change I get when I buy something at the store. Doesn't mean I think they're dishonest, I just like to keep tabs on what I'm spending and making sure I get the proper change.

My first post was about the word "Hustle," and what it means to the SC business. My argument was that the "hustle" was not a lie or a deception, but stealing money was.

The one dancer who padded the bill is an exception to the rule. I don't consider a dancer padding the bill to be a "hustle," it's a rip off. When girls talk in "Hustle Hut" about making more money, they don't talk about ripping off the customer, so, "hustle" is not about stealing from the customer, it's about selling more dances and how to do it. That's the hustle they're referring to.

Have any dancers ever tried to rip you off?

bem401
07-30-2007, 06:16 AM
Well if going in the club and paying someone you barely even know to tell you things she doesn't really mean while you're making sure to count the number of songs you've done constitutes honesty, then I stand corrected. I am not saying that any of this is wrong, but you can't call it honest. And I realize the bullshit flows both ways. Quite frankly, I would have a hard time enduring what some of the girls deal with in the club.

As far as still visiting the clubs despite the dishonesty JB, I just go in and spend time with the people I am friendly with. You also contradict your original premise when you say the dancer would tell the guy she thought him an asshole if she was really going to be honest. I never said I want the dancer to be honest. I just said that the business as a whole isn't honest. You accept that when you enter the door. Note that even Jenny readily admits it is a seedy business. I am not trying to change the business but I do want to see it for what it is.

As far as a dancer trying to rip me off is concerned, that has only happened once to me where a girl claimed 3 nude dances when it was really 2 topless dances. I told her I'd pay for the 2 topless or we could call over a manager. She took the 2 topless. In fairness to her, she was very drunk at the time so maybe she wasn't intentionally trying to rip me off.

Jenny, you're right to resent the teachers you described. I am a teacher and am appalled by the behavior of some of them. The behavior you described was creepy, possibly perverted, and definitely inappropriate but not necessarily dishonest, just examples of the teacher leveraging the power they have over students, which they did unethically.

When you say the guys are getting exactly what they are asking for when the girls pretend to like the customers, you are right. It is why the business manages to survive and there is nothing wrong with the girls providing that service. In those cases, the guy is still being lied to, if not by the dancer then by himself.

mr_punk
07-30-2007, 06:39 AM
I keep track of dances so I know how many I've had and how many more I'm going to get. I also count the change I get when I buy something at the store. Doesn't mean I think they're dishonest, I just like to keep tabs on what I'm spending and making sure I get the proper change.so, you're counting pennies because you're anal not suspicious.

My first post was about the word "Hustle," and what it means to the SC business. My argument was that the "hustle" was not a lie or a deception, but stealing money was.sigh...how many times must i say this? i am not a stripper. i assume you are not as well, but unlike you. i'm not one of those guys who hangs around SW or ITC curious to know every minute detail about the industry. so, if a stripper is padding the count. what "hustle" means to someone in a specialized industry is hardly relevant to me as a customer. the word "hustle" still applies. you see, this is called making an informed decision for yourself rather than unconditionally deifying and swallowing propaganda whole.

James Bond
07-30-2007, 07:00 AM
what "hustle" means to someone in a specialized industry is hardly relevant to me as a customer. the word "hustle" still applies. you see, this is called making an informed decision for yourself rather than unconditionally deifying and swallowing propaganda whole.

Have any dancers tried to rip you off and how many times has this happened?

bem401
07-30-2007, 07:26 AM
Have any dancers tried to rip you off and how many times has this happened?

I know your question was directed at Mr. P. but I addressed that in my last post. Nowadays, I do not really expose myself to much risk of getting ripped off because I pretty much only deal with the same girls I've dealt with for years.
If I really felt I needed to watch my back around them, I probably wouldn't bother hanging around with them.

xdamage
07-30-2007, 08:33 AM
If some guys think that the SC business is dishonest, then why do they keep going there?


Presumably some go back because they really don't care if the business is dishonest as long as they get to see tits and ass, or because some are deluded (not necessarily to the extent that our buddy Jeff is, but because a part of them really haven't yet figured out that the dancers don't really like them), or because some enjoy "hustling" the dancers, etc.

Anyway, I'm okay with whatever people want to believe is going on in the SC as long as the arguments are self-consistent. For example...

If you argue that the vast majority of customers are aware of what is going on, and definition #2 doesn't apply, then next time you read a dancer's post who takes pride in her ability to "string a customer along", there is an inconsistency there in terms of who believes what. If you factor in human nature, that people want to see themselves in the best possible light, there is no inconsistency at all, but without that either you have to argue that she believes that the customer is not fully aware of the truth, or you have to pop her bubble and have her come down from her ego stroking perch.

Or if for example, a dancer goes off on a tangent on how adult women are made to do things they don't want to do in or out of the club, by men, on the grounds that the women are not fully aware and cognizant of their choices, there is an inconsistency there. Holding the men to one level of responsibility and awareness, while holding the women to a lesser one when it's convienent to see a situation in that way. Again, there is no true issue understanding this if you accept that people will tend to choose to see situation in terms that are the most advantageous to them.

Also I'll admit, I doubt that the awareness level of the majority of the customers on the blue site is representative of the awareness level of the majority of customers world-wide. Likewise, I'm kind of thinking you are seeing dancers on their better behavior on SW where people have virtual reputations to maintain.

I'm also thinking that the reality is somewhere in the middle. Sure, on the one hand you have extremes like Mr. P. who is fully cognizant of the SC game, while on the other you have PLs like Jeff who are apparently completely deluded. But I'm guessing they are the extremes, and the majority are in the grey areas of awareness. Likewise we aree probably some above average honest dancers on this site, but as to the mindsets of the girls in the industry in general (only a small fraction of which are on SW), I'm guessing it varies and the majority are in the grey area where they are just as happy if the customers are/remain a bit deluded.

In the end adults have to take responsibility for their choices of course, but in practice people tend to have wants that are not always in each other's best interest, and they tend to choose in favor of themselves (yes, even if that means being a little or a lot dishonest). This is the way things work; I don't see dancers as fundamentally evil even if they choose in favor of themselves, because we all tend to do it in many areas of life. But it is a grey scale for me, and charging extra for dances I find to be intolerable, while say pretending to like a PL and stringing him along for money I accept as tolerable. Set you're own limits however you like. I don't think there is any absolutes here, just decide what you are comfortable with and spend or don't spend as you like.

mr_punk
07-30-2007, 11:02 AM
Have any dancers tried to rip you off and how many times has this happened?sigh..what earthly difference would it make if it was none, once or one hundred times? in the end, nothing has changed. strippers still have feet of clay. buy hey, i understand. you absolutely must have an answer. sort of like the guy who sees a stripper with obvious bolt-ons. yet, still has to ask,"are those real?". anyway, without further ado...http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92940

Likewise we aree probably some above average honest dancers on this site, but as to the mindsets of the girls in the industry in general (only a small fraction of which are on SW), I'm guessing it varies and the majority are in the grey area where they are just as happy if the customers are/remain a bit deluded.sure. what business wouldn't want easily, pliable customers who have idealistic and romanticized notions about their industry?

James Bond
07-30-2007, 05:03 PM
sigh..what earthly difference would it make if it was none, once or one hundred times? in the end, nothing has changed. strippers still have feet of clay. buy hey, i understand. you absolutely must have an answer. sort of like the guy who sees a stripper with obvious bolt-ons. yet, still has to ask,"are those real?". anyway, without further ado...http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92940
sure. what business wouldn't want easily, pliable customers who have idealistic and romanticized notions about their industry?

Yes, I got to have the answer. You never answer the question. I'll assume that no, you haven't been ripped off.

YOUR POST:

i was talking to this stripper who recently made the roster and before we headed off for some dances. she informs me that she's going to give me a couple of free dances. it turns out that she messed up the count when we were briefly interrupted last time. i kinda shrugged my shoulders in indifference...whatever. it simply wasn't an issue. END

Damn, she's pretty honest. Is this your post to prove that dancers are dishonest?

Remember my exception to the rule about dishonest dancers. Someone will find a couple of exceptions and try to turn it into the rule. Don't make the exception, the rule.

I'll say the sky is blue, then some clown will say he spots a little gray on the horizon. I didn't say every dancer is totally 100% honest. I said this profession is more honest than most professions.

That means that there could be some dishonesty there, but not a lot. You make every statement black or white. Either they're 100% honest or their 100% corrupt. And one example otherwise proves you right. Not really. I can't get an honest response out of you or an honest debate.

bem401
07-30-2007, 05:25 PM
[QUOTE=James Bond;1155712]I'll say the sky is blue, then some clown will say he spots a little gray on the horizon. I didn't say every dancer is totally 100% honest. I said this profession is more honest than most professions. QUOTE]

Call me a clown if you like, but...

What makes you say it is more honest than other professions? I'm not necessarily saying it isn't but what makes you say it is? Just the fact that you haven't been ripped off (yet ) ?

doc-catfish
07-30-2007, 06:06 PM
Perhaps our next semantical discussion should be titled, "The word "Honest".
::)


You make every statement black or white. Either they're 100% honest or their 100% corrupt. And one example otherwise proves you right. Not really. I can't get an honest response out of you or an honest debate.
Umm, you're new to this whole debating Mr. Punk thing aren't you? I'm sure Jenny can give you lessons (but she'll have to charge for them).

Perhaps a good analogy of dealing with a stripper is dealing with a car salesman. The majority of people in both professions are on the whole honest enough to where they are not going to outright shark their clients, but just the same the unanimity of people in both professions are there to make as much money as they possibly can and aren't above using slight of hand tactics and are willing to exploit a customer's gullibility in order to make a sale. Things that aren't fraudulent, but aren't necessarily good for repeat business. (This is assuming of course, the customer has a clue that he's being had, and lets face it, a lot of customers, often through their own actions, don't realize this).

But its foolish to say there aren't a few folks in either line of work who aren't afraid to step over that line of legality and defraud people. In fact, those few are enough out of a hundred where its wise to watch yourself, because there may not be any recourse should you get burned (aka "hustled"), or its going to be cost prohibitive and/or potentially embarrassing to make use of any resource. "Umm, yes officer, she grinded on my cock for six songs and told me it was for eight."

All it really takes is one ROB incident, or anything that even smells like one to put you on guard and not trust anybody until they prove themselves trustworthy. I'm sure the ladies feel much the same way once they've had a customer or two burn them over unpaid services, even if the other 98% of their clients were uhmm...honest.

mr_punk
07-30-2007, 08:16 PM
Damn, she's pretty honest. Is this your post to prove that dancers are dishonest?honest? LOL..what difference does it make? i didn't say she was my SO. no, she's being professional instead of being retraded and short-sighted.


Damn, she's pretty honest. Is this your post to prove that dancers are dishonest?ROTFLMAO..i also posted this (http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1125315&postcount=13) (note the second quote) in the very same thread. yet, it seems you didn't bother to read it or simply decided to ignore it. in any event, you asked a simple question. i answered it. now, you claim i was supposed to prove all strippers are dishonest. sorry, i don't know where you came up with such a retarded idea, but it wasn't from me.

mr_punk
07-30-2007, 08:35 PM
All it really takes is one ROB incident, or anything that even smells like one to put you on guard and not trust anybody until they prove themselves trustworthy. I'm sure the ladies feel much the same way once they've had a customer or two burn them over unpaid services, even if the other 98% of their clients were uhmm...honest.thank you, DC. this effing fanboy is effing killing me with this honesty crap.

Jenny
07-30-2007, 09:32 PM
Umm, you're new to this whole debating Mr. Punk thing aren't you? I'm sure Jenny can give you lessons (but she'll have to charge for them).
Well you know. My milkshake does bring all the boys to the yard.
Sorry. My club was stuck in "5 years ago" tonight.

All it really takes is one ROB incident, or anything that even smells like one to put you on guard and not trust anybody until they prove themselves trustworthy. I'm sure the ladies feel much the same way once they've had a customer or two burn them over unpaid services, even if the other 98% of their clients were uhmm...honest.
I don't know. There seems to be a fairly uniform viewpoint amongst you gentlement that being ripped off by one or two customers does not justify making customers pay up front. I mean for example. I don't think you find it fair or accurate for me to take my worst two experiences with a customer and use it to characterize customers in general. Ultimately - it doesn't really matter. I don't think anything I do requires trust or an assumption of honesty (although I'm frequently operating on a wing and a prayer that I'm going to get paid at the end of dances)

Docido
07-31-2007, 04:37 AM
We do twist ourselves into semantic pretzels here don't we? Someone, long ago, introduced the idea of special ethical areas, places or situations where the usual societal rules don't apply. Most of us would agree that honesty is important when maintaining a relationship. But, when I step into a club I need a different type of honesty than I do in “real life.’ It’s not important if I know a stripper’s government name. Dancers keep those private for obvious reasons. It’s not like anyone wants to wind up chained to Jeffy’s basement wall. And does it really matter if she is pretending to like me? I’m getting a lap- dance, not getting down on my knees proposing marriage. All I’m asking is that the stripper has some sales integrity. Deliver what you promise, don’t over-count, and keep the SS light-hearted and casual, though over-the-top SS has its own entertainment value. Anyone who constantly worries, “Does she really like me?” Or think, “She’s just doing it to make the sale,” is as demented as those sad, desperate people who scrounge through their favorite celebrity's trash looking for clues that their devotion isn’t unrequited. Bottom line, accept that strip club honesty means something quite different than real world honesty and leave it at that.

bem401
07-31-2007, 04:55 AM
All I’m asking is that the stripper have some sales integrity. Deliver what you promise, don’t over-count, and keep the SS light-hearted and casual....


Exactly the point I was trying to make. It really is the only honesty one can, or has any right to expect ( or maybe even wants ) when in a club.

Docido
07-31-2007, 05:09 AM
Pet peve of mine: Dancers don't make $400 an hour OK? They get paid by the dance. Some days are good, some days are bad, some days they make $50 for the whole shift. Yes, a good dancer probably makes more than many of the guys she dances for and I think that this fact causes some guys to harbor a bit of resentment towards the ladies. I've never understood this. It seems to me that you are cheating yourself out of most of the fun of interacting with beautiful women if you walk in the door with a chip on your shoulders...

Exactly. They're not on an hourly wage. It also depends on the area. Since I'm here in the wonderful rust belt, the income is probably not spectacular.

bem401
07-31-2007, 06:07 AM
Pet peve of mine: Dancers don't make $400 an hour OK? They get paid by the dance. Some days are good, some days are bad, some days they make $50 for the whole shift. ...


The $400 figure represents the hourly equivalent of what she was making while she was dancing. Nobody actually said she was making that for any length of time other than that. The guy who was getting ripped off by the over-counter was paying her approximately $7 per minute to dance for him and it was while she was in his "employ" that the scam was taking place. Beyond that, I agree the $400 figure isn't particularly relevant.

xdamage
07-31-2007, 07:17 AM
Pet peve of mine: Dancers don't make $400 an hour OK? They get paid by the dance.

True, however should you ever find yourself in need of a lawyer (or mechanic, or contractor), you will very likely be told that it will cost you $N per hour for his services, and as a customer of his services, that is your only concern. And if it's $400 an hour, your primary thought will probably be, 'damn this is expensive, I better get my money's worth'.

It's not the customers issue that someone who is paid hourly or per time T can't keep their hours booked with customers. The only thing that is relevant to the customer is what it's costing the customer, and $400+ an hour is very expensive entertainment.

Bem's primary point really had nothing at all to do with what a dancer makes over 8 hours. I'm sure he was 100% cognizant that they don't make this all night long. He simply used the words in the same way we all do when we are paying someone an hour rate (i.e., "This lawyer is making $400 an hour" which is true. That he sits around in his office for many hours with no clients is also true, but not relevant to the customers).

Docido
07-31-2007, 07:24 AM
And don't forget, they have to pay the club to work there. The independent contractor thing.

yoda57us
07-31-2007, 08:49 AM
True, however should you ever find yourself in need of a lawyer (or mechanic, or contractor), you will very likely be told that it will cost you $N per hour for his services, and as a customer of his services, that is your only concern. And if it's $400 an hour, your primary thought will probably be, 'damn this is expensive, I better get my money's worth'.


True but who cares? We are talkin' about strippers here. Legal services are not entertainment. If I need a lawyer I'm probably not going to have much choice about what it will cost me...I doubt they will bill me in 3 minute increments.

As far as getting one's money's worth. Well, with the lawyer, if he sucks you fire him and get a new one. When it comes to dancers, if you don't like the dances you stop buying them. I'm not holding customers responsible for what a dancer makes in an eight hour shift...that is of course mostly up to her. What I am commenting on is an attitude that I sometimes notice here and in the clubs.

bem401
07-31-2007, 09:12 AM
And don't forget, they have to pay the club to work there. The independent contractor thing.

True, but that's not really of any concern to the customer. The only reason girls have to pay to work there is because there are enough pretty girls willing to pay to work there. If somehow, miraculously, there were no longer any attractive females willing to do so, house fees and the like would be gone in a flash.

xdamage
07-31-2007, 09:31 AM
And don't forget, they have to pay the club to work there. The independent contractor thing.

Well if you've ever worked as a contractor you'd know that you have expenses. In this case the dancer is renting out use of the club's property. Of course she has to make enough to cover her business expenses. So do other contractors. They aren't unique in this regard.

xdamage
07-31-2007, 09:48 AM
True but who cares? We are talkin' about strippers here. Legal services are not entertainment. If I need a lawyer I'm probably not going to have much choice about what it will cost me...I doubt they will bill me in 3 minute increments.

As far as getting one's money's worth. Well, with the lawyer, if he sucks you fire him and get a new one. When it comes to dancers, if you don't like the dances you stop buying them. I'm not holding customers responsible for what a dancer makes in an eight hour shift...that is of course mostly up to her. What I am commenting on is an attitude that I sometimes notice here and in the clubs.

I guess not everyone read bem's original post, or the context of it. His posts were deleted so here is the gist of it in analogous form:

Lawyer A - Bragging about ripping a customer off by charging for time or services never rendered.

Customer - Not only are you being paid $400 an hour (this true, the lawyer is being paid that hourly rate), but on top of that you feel you have the right to rip people off - just really sad all around. The customer is fully and completely aware that they don't make $400 every hour of every day. In fact it's so blatantly obvious that he assumes (apparently incorrectly) that it's so obvious there is no need to mention it, mostly because it's not relevant anyway in context, and secondarily because it's just a big "duh"

Lawyer B - Wastes everyone's time with an irrelevant discussion that lawyers who aren't busy the full 8hrs don't make $400 an hour, completely drawing attention away from the fact that Lawyer A is ripping people off.

Lawyer B and others further waste everyone's time de-railing the conversation that the Lawyers have business expenses and don't get to keep the whole $400 an hour. Boo Hoo. All contractors have business expenses.

Lawyers C through Z - say nothing, apparently apathetic that Laywer A is bragging about ripping customers off.



To me it's clear. The customer is correct on both accounts, and the fact that Lawyer A and B don't have customers for a full 8hrs a day is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't justify ripping the customer off, and the customer has a legit complaint - not only is being ripped off wrong, but at the hourly price the customer is paying, which is far and well above and beyond the cost of most entertainment, it's additionally heinous that the business (or it's representatives) are taking pride (or in the case of Lawyer B complete apathy) in charging for service time that was never rendered. It is reasonable for the customer to think that with the high fee should come some additional sense that customers should be treated especially well.

But we do agree on one thing for sure... We are talking about strippers here. Apparently some of them don't really understand these basic concepts of honesty, and customer respect that apply to other professionals in other fields. And apparently even on a website like SW where we are told dancers are above average honest, they are completely apathetic to bragging about ripping off customers, while OTOH they are quite happy to whine and cry that they aren't making enough because they can't keep their hours booked, or because they have business expenses.

bem401
08-01-2007, 09:05 AM
I don't know if X's analogy brings us any closer to a consensus here. It seems everyone has determined their own position and dug in their heels.

mr_punk
08-01-2007, 12:42 PM
I guess not everyone read bem's original post, or the context of it. His posts were deleted so here is the gist of it in analogous form:is that how it went down? LOL..if anything, let this be a lesson to those who assume there is a general level professionalism among those work in that industry. after all, you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse or a ho into a housewife for that matter. caveat emptor.

I don't know if X's analogy brings us any closer to a consensus here. It seems everyone has determined their own position and dug in their heels.eh..sometimes, it can't be helped. this board is filled with apologists. they don't call it "dancer support" for nothing.

bem401
08-01-2007, 01:30 PM
caveat emptor

words to live by ( and not just here ).

yoda57us
08-01-2007, 08:07 PM
True, but that's not really of any concern to the customer. The only reason girls have to pay to work there is because there are enough pretty girls willing to pay to work there. If somehow, miraculously, there were no longer any attractive females willing to do so, house fees and the like would be gone in a flash.

Well no, it isn't our concern, I think we all understand that but since the general topic here is strip clubs and strippers it's still OK to talk about it right?

As far as house fees and attractive dancers goes...
Have you looked around at some of the ladies that are working in clubs recently? Management is all about collecting house fees. They willing to hire any woman with a pulse and the nerve to take her clothes of. As long as she pays her fees they don't really care if she makes any money. Sure they may stick the real scary ladies on the day shift but few if any are turned away. It's just filling out the schedule as far as they are concerned.
House fees are not going anywhere. The supply of dancers, attractive or otherwise is not drying up.

miabella
08-01-2007, 10:32 PM
and yet a lot of attractive dancers cannot get hired on any shift, housefee in hand or not.

xdamage
08-02-2007, 06:13 AM
LOL..if anything, let this be a lesson to those who assume there is a general level professionalism among those work in that industry....this board is filled with apologists. they don't call it "dancer support" for nothing.

Yea, well, look at the situation... if it was a group of not so good looking older guys bragging about ripping off customers you can probably guess that there'd be a lot less apologies made for bad behavior.

bem401
08-02-2007, 08:49 AM
and yet a lot of attractive dancers cannot get hired on any shift, housefee in hand or not.

That must be a localized thing, Mia, because clubs in this area seem to have a huge turnover month to month, but then again, there are tons of clubs in the area. If there weren't so many, turnover most likely would be less.

miabella
08-02-2007, 08:06 PM
a lot of clubs in a lot of areas will not hire every girl, high turnover or not, attractive or not. it's not a 'local' thing, but a moderately complex situation involving multiple variables. the variable-percentages are localised, but the variables themselves are not.

RandomUser
08-02-2007, 08:35 PM
Hmmm I found this site because I realized I needed to know how to hustle and be shrewd about life. I looked at a lot of stuff and the meanings didn't pop out at me til i visited stripperweb.

IMO "Hustle" is to close the sale quickly and not be distracted and get on to the next sale. Or quick to recognize opportunities for sales and then closing them.

"Shrewd" is to maximize your revenue. Both skills I apparently need. lol

Dishonesty leads to poor perception of the world around. A dishonest person will miss the grey sales, which are sometimes more abundant then the black and white ones. An honest person will have a broader outlook on life and see more potential for closing. The dishonest person will get cornered and try to take their way through life and run into an un giveable object. As said elsewhere, once you encounter the dishonest person it best to shun them and move on to your own success. A shrewd person can seem dishonest, but their mind is just quicker with the value of the close.

yoda57us
08-03-2007, 07:58 AM
I don't know if X's analogy brings us any closer to a consensus here. It seems everyone has determined their own position and dug in their heels.

I don't think you will find a consensus here all that often bem. Part of what makes this board interesting is that we all form our opinions based on our experiences and share those opinions here. Sometimes I will both agree and disagree with the same poster in the same day....even in the same thread.

It's fascinating to me that ten people can look at a situation and come away with ten different opinions on it. Of course we all tend to think that our take on a topic is the most logical. That being said, I'm almost 50 years old and I've been clubbing for half of my life. There isn't much said on SCJ that is going to change my opinion about anything involving strippers, strip clubs and human nature.

yoda57us
08-03-2007, 08:03 AM
That must be a localized thing, Mia, because clubs in this area seem to have a huge turnover month to month, but then again, there are tons of clubs in the area. If there weren't so many, turnover most likely would be less.


a lot of clubs in a lot of areas will not hire every girl, high turnover or not, attractive or not. it's not a 'local' thing, but a moderately complex situation involving multiple variables. the variable-percentages are localised, but the variables themselves are not.

I've never tried to get hired as a dancer Mia so I'm not going to question your opinion. Still I have to agree with bem for the most part. The clubs in Providence and in the Boston area turn over quite a large number of dancers every month. Club management wants a lot of girls dancing and a lot of house fees coming in every shift. Girls, attractive or otherwise, just don't seem to have much trouble getting hired. Yes, clubs do some peculiar things sometimes but I don't really sense any sort of conspiracy, just stupidity.

bem401
08-03-2007, 08:51 AM
I've never tried to get hired as a dancer Mia so I'm not going to question your opinion. Still I have to agree with bem for the most part. The clubs in Providence and in the Boston area turn over quite a large number of dancers every month. Club management wants a lot of girls dancing and a lot of house fees coming in every shift. Girls, attractive or otherwise, just don't seem to have much trouble getting hired. Yes, clubs do some peculiar things sometimes but I don't really sense any sort of conspiracy, just stupidity.

Of course, the possibility exists that the Providence-Boston area is the exception to the rule and Mia's statement applies most everywhere else. I probably should have taken that into consideration before posting as my exposure to the industry is confined to Providence clubs and one in MA.

miabella
08-03-2007, 09:25 AM
i'm not saying it's a 'conspiracy' that hot girls (and ugly ones) sometimes get turned away at clubs, only that they do, even sometimes at clubs that have hired tons of girls 'just for the house fee'.

i guess to me, that's part of the uncertainty for strippers underlying some of the less-savory hustles. there is no guarantee that a conventionally- attractive/alternative/ethnic/chubby girl will be able to work anywhere, if there ever was. kinda breeds desperation even as clubs often DO hire lots of housefees rather than talented dancers.

Katrine
08-03-2007, 10:42 AM
Mia, is this a race thing? Because as much as it sucks, I would agree that certain ethnicities do have trouble getting hired in many places just for that reason, even if they are hot.

bem401
08-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Mia, is this a race thing? Because as much as it sucks, I would agree that certain ethnicities do have trouble getting hired in many places just for that reason, even if they are hot.

Along the lines of what Katrine says, when I say girls have little or no trouble moving around from club to club in this town, I am speaking about attractive and fit, white, asian, or hispanic girls. They comprise 95% of the girls in the clubs I visit.

yoda57us
08-03-2007, 06:12 PM
Mia, is this a race thing? Because as much as it sucks, I would agree that certain ethnicities do have trouble getting hired in many places just for that reason, even if they are hot.

I was thinking the same thing. What bem said about clubs in our area rings very true. There is a huge Brazilian contingent as well as many Hispanic, Asian and of course white dancers. There are not many black girls at all dancing in Providence and the highest concentration of them seems to be in the lower end clubs.

miabella
08-03-2007, 08:34 PM
race is just one of several factors. (also yoda, brasileiras come in colors other than lightish browns :-)
i've seen plenty of posts on the pinkside from girls of every ethnicity not able to get hired, ranging from 'conventionally attractive' white/asian/hispanic to black to tattooed to 'thick', etc.

what i was really throwing out was some background on why girls might use desperate and too-shady hustles in the club. if even hot girls of $whatever-background cannot be sure of getting in to work over an unattractive, lazy dancer, it can up the ante for the ones who are in there and worried about making enough money.

i was thinking aloud about the underlying circumstances that could lead dancers to be a bit too short-term about how they earn their money.


i got a lot of economics on the brain lately...

yoda57us
08-03-2007, 09:03 PM
I'm starting to follow what you are saying Mia but that does seem like a destiny that the dancer has complete control over.

BTW, for years I only did Brazilians, I know about all the color selection and love em' all!
One of the prettiest black dancers at my regular club is actually Brazilian.

xdamage
08-04-2007, 08:12 AM
...what i was really throwing out was some background on why girls might use desperate and too-shady hustles in the club. ... i was thinking aloud about the underlying circumstances that could lead dancers to be a bit too short-term about how they earn their money.

Could be mia, but I'm still thinking in the back of my head that the big difference between stripping and so many other jobs comes down to a general social disapproval of trading sex for money. The SCs may be legal, but the society around these establishments generally frowns on them and nobody seems to want them in their neighborhoods where they raise their kids, or go to church.

This is the reality that most of us are raised with, and even if we ignore it intellectually, somewhere in the back of our minds are many years of messages, johns and sex-workers are bad. If you accept that those messages are part of who we are and how we think as a society, then I think it's understandable and expected that many dancers have a part of their psyche which looks down on customers, and deserving of being ripped off. It explains why a large group of them, like on SW, are completely unmoved (we are told apathetic) when a dancer takes pride in ripping off customers, and of course it also explains why customers don't always hold dancers in the highest regard either.

bem401
08-04-2007, 08:53 AM
i was thinking aloud about the underlying circumstances that could lead dancers to be a bit too short-term about how they earn their money.

I think a lot of dancers tend to be notoriously near-sighted, but the same would hold true for any line of work where you get paid on the spot. The constant flow of cash , whether it be $100/day, $300/day, or $1000/day does little to foster fiscal discipline and I think a lot of people with that type of job spend more freely because their next payday is coming tomorrow. It leads to a make-it, spend-it, make-it-again mentality, living for the moment. I had to avoid falling into that trap when I worked in a tip-dominated industry while in college.

In the long-term, being ethical is just good business. The first girl who might have ever looked at me as a regular, would not have gotten a dance from me if she hadn't behaved ethically in the first place. When I first started clubbing ( at this point I had never done more than individual song PD's ), I visited a girl on stage that I thought was attractive and I mistakenly tipped her a $20 and 2 $1's instead of 3 $1's. at the end of her set i said to her " I think I gave you a $20 by mistake". She promptly flipped through her stack of bills, saw the $20, and handed it right back to me. I came back the following night and did a 15-minute room with her and continued to do 2-3 rooms per week with her for several months. If she had elected to keep the $20, as was certainly her right, I never would have done the thousands of dollars worth of dances over the next few months. So her willingness to do something that I'm sure not everyone would do, actually paid off for her in the long run. Unfortunately, a lot of people in a lot of businesses do not always behave that way.

Jenny
08-04-2007, 11:06 AM
I visited a girl on stage that I thought was attractive and I mistakenly tipped her a $20 and 2 $1's instead of 3 $1's. at the end of her set i said to her " I think I gave you a $20 by mistake". She promptly flipped through her stack of bills, saw the $20, and handed it right back to me.
See - interesting. I'm not sure I would have given it back, and I don't see accepting a large tip and then refusing to refund it as unethical. I mean, it is inconvenient for you, but that doesn't mean that I'm doing anything wrong. Now whenever a guy tipped me over a twenty and I noticed at the time, I would ask if he was sure he wanted to give it to me - and I would inform him that stage tips are tips and not down payments for dances. And I mean, your choices are your choices, but it seems weird to label it as "unethical" because you might not be getting what you want. Like I believe in good customer service - I'm one of the strippers that punk would call a girl scout insofar as I do want customers to enjoy their experience and be glad that they spent the money whether or not they are coming back. But I don't know if it is reasonable to expect me to start giving back money to ensure that. Really I think you are being kind of unreasonable in asking for it back if you acknowledge that it is hers and she has a right to keep it.

bem401
08-04-2007, 12:09 PM
See - interesting. I'm not sure I would have given it back, and I don't see accepting a large tip and then refusing to refund it as unethical. I mean, it is inconvenient for you, but that doesn't mean that I'm doing anything wrong. Now whenever a guy tipped me over a twenty and I noticed at the time, I would ask if he was sure he wanted to give it to me - and I would inform him that stage tips are tips and not down payments for dances. And I mean, your choices are your choices, but it seems weird to label it as "unethical" because you might not be getting what you want. Like I believe in good customer service - I'm one of the strippers that punk would call a girl scout insofar as I do want customers to enjoy their experience and be glad that they spent the money whether or not they are coming back. But I don't know if it is reasonable to expect me to start giving back money to ensure that. Really I think you are being kind of unreasonable in asking for it back if you acknowledge that it is hers and she has a right to keep it.

I wouldn't have deemed it as "unethical" for her to have kept the tip either. I gave her the money. It was at that point her money, no doubt about it. I explained to her, very politely, that I made a mistake, and she offered to give it back to me ( as far as I can remember, without me explicitly asking for it ) . The point I was trying to make was that had she said "well, its mine now, you gave it to me", she'd have been 100% right, but she'd also have missed out on approximately $3000 in dances from me over the next few months. So guess my point is two-fold. Maybe she figured returning the $20 was an investment in trying to turn me into a regular. She didn't get a dance from me that night but I did return the next night specifically to see her. Secondly, there might be some truth to the saying "what goes around comes around ".

Jenny
08-04-2007, 12:18 PM
Well, I think I see what is going around and coming around in a slightly different way than you. I mean, from my perspective you put her in an extremely awkward position where the only thing she could do is either hand you her $20 or say "tough luck it's mine now." I think that is actually kind of unreasonable and not very courteous - especially for that amount. Like, I might see it a little different if it was a $100. Further - the moral of your story is... if you give a "refund" to an unreasonable customer it may pay off some time in the future? Yeah, I think we all know the likelihood on that one. So while I'm glad that you "paid" for your unreasonableness in this case and stuff, and I'm sure you're a super guy and all that, handing out refunds in hopes of ample future business is going to be a loser's game in this industry.