View Full Version : The word "Hustle"
lestat1
08-04-2007, 12:49 PM
See - interesting. I'm not sure I would have given it back, and I don't see accepting a large tip and then refusing to refund it as unethical. I mean, it is inconvenient for you, but that doesn't mean that I'm doing anything wrong. Now whenever a guy tipped me over a twenty and I noticed at the time, I would ask if he was sure he wanted to give it to me - and I would inform him that stage tips are tips and not down payments for dances. And I mean, your choices are your choices, but it seems weird to label it as "unethical" because you might not be getting what you want. Like I believe in good customer service - I'm one of the strippers that punk would call a girl scout insofar as I do want customers to enjoy their experience and be glad that they spent the money whether or not they are coming back. But I don't know if it is reasonable to expect me to start giving back money to ensure that. Really I think you are being kind of unreasonable in asking for it back if you acknowledge that it is hers and she has a right to keep it.
I see business of any kind is a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship (the mutualism subset of symbiosis if you want to be technical).
This is a bit different than a cashier giving a customer too much change back because retail goods are a fixed price and the tipping is so variable, but I still see the cashier scenario and the stage tipping scenario as being rather similar. I always point out to a cashier if I was given too much change and I give it back to them. The $20 stage tip might have been intentional, it might not have been. But if after the stage set the dancer finds out it was a mistake, I don't think it's ethical to keep it. Keeping it would be a permanent deal-breaker for me, but them I'm very anal about business being done fairly and ethically (6 years of boycotting the lying fuckers at Best Buy and still going). As a customer I get nowhere taking adanvantag of a business or dancer. In the long run, If I like a place/dancer, I want them to do well and keep on selling to me.
bem401
08-04-2007, 12:49 PM
Well, I think I see what is going around and coming around in a slightly different way than you. I mean, from my perspective you put her in an extremely awkward position where the only thing she could do is either hand you her $20 or say "tough luck it's mine now." I think that is actually kind of unreasonable and not very courteous - especially for that amount. Like, I might see it a little different if it was a $100. Further - the moral of your story is... if you give a "refund" to an unreasonable customer it may pay off some time in the future? Yeah, I think we all know the likelihood on that one. So while I'm glad that you "paid" for your unreasonableness in this case and stuff, and I'm sure you're a super guy and all that, handing out refunds in hopes of ample future business is going to be a loser's game in this industry.
"What goes around comes around " generally refers to bad behavior not good.
On the night in question, I stopped in on the spur of the moment for a drink and probably only had $30 or $40 on me at the time so the $20 was more significant than $100 might be another time. And I think she might have seen me searching through my money and asked me what was wrong. I don't think I was being at all unreasonable. The money was given in error and while she was by no means obligated to return it, it was the right thing to do. It was exactly as I would have done if I'd been in her position. In this particular case, it turned out well for her to have done it. I know that ( especially in a SC ) good deeds don't often get rewarded.
Katrine
08-04-2007, 01:02 PM
So you became her regular because she gave you money back? Not because she was attractive and fun and gave a good dance? Wow, the criteria seems to be changing.
Bem, I'm just calling shens on you, I think you are full of shit, and that story is relatively contrived enough for you to prove your point. Meaning, I'm sure it happened and all, but its just soooo convenient that you bring it up now.
However, if I were in her shoes, I would have been polite and done the same thing, as a courtesy. Moreover, MANY guys have tipped me $20 onstage, so I wouldn't make an effort to tell anyone if they've tipped me that amount or greater. I just assumed they like me. Stripping isn't a game of "maybe" strategy. There are tried and true things that work, and being a pushover isn't one of them.
And Miabella....I don't know why some girls just can't get hired at any clubs. The only consistent thing that I've seen in my years that prevents girls from being hired is simply not being attractive/fit enough.
Jenny
08-04-2007, 01:02 PM
On the night in question, I stopped in on the spur of the moment for a drink and probably only had $30 or $40 on me at the time so the $20 was more significant than $100 might be another time. And I think she might have seen me searching through my money and asked me what was wrong. I don't think I was being at all unreasonable. The money was given in error and while she was by no means obligated to return it, it was the right thing to do. It was exactly as I would have done if I'd been in her position. In this particular case, it turned out well for her to have done it. I know that ( especially in a SC ) good deeds don't often get rewarded.
Wow, more and more keeps getting added to this story. So now, you didn't ask for it back at the end of her set at all, she just brought it up and offered? Well, that was sweet of her. It was certainly a NICE thing to do, but I don't know that I'd call it "the right" thing to do, or that doing anything else (no matter how awkward you make it) is "wrong".
Like if I overtipped in a restaurant, there is no way I'd ask for it back unless it was a pretty gross amount (and a $20 stage tip is not a gross amount) and it would be considered pretty fucking off for me to walk back in and ask for my tip back (I mean, I might get it if I did so, simply because I would be creating such an awkward situation, but I'd still be the one being discourteous and expecting everyone else to accommodate that).
If your point is not that good deeds get rewarded, what is it? Like your entire story delineated around the fact that she gave you back your $20 and then got $3000 over the next couple months. So now we're saying that's irrelevant?
Customers tip $20's stage side all the time. I'm surprised she gave it back. She could have reasonably viewed his request as "buyers remorse" or "Damn, I want my $20 back so I can buy a dance from that other girl I just noticed". Personally, I wouldn't have asked for the money back for that reason.
Many guys keep their tip money organized ie: your roll of ones in a certain pocket and your larger bills in another or in your wallet. That reduces the likelihood of that sort of mistake.
FBR
bem401
08-04-2007, 01:09 PM
I see business of any kind is a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship (the mutualism subset of symbiosis if you want to be technical).
This is a bit different than a cashier giving a customer too much change back because retail goods are a fixed price and the tipping is so variable, but I still see the cashier scenario and the stage tipping scenario as being rather similar. I always point out to a cashier if I was given too much change and I give it back to them. The $20 stage tip might have been intentional, it might not have been. But if after the stage set the dancer finds out it was a mistake, I don't think it's ethical to keep it. Keeping it would be a permanent deal-breaker for me, but them I'm very anal about business being done fairly and ethically (6 years of boycotting the lying fuckers at Best Buy and still going). As a customer I get nowhere taking adanvantag of a business or dancer. In the long run, If I like a place/dancer, I want them to do well and keep on selling to me.
The $20 was definitely given in error. I know that because I gave it. Once I gave it to her it became her money, mistake or not. The only way I was getting it back was if she gave it to me. It was not a situation either of me being drunk or anything. I just peeled the bigger bill off by mistake and gave it to her without looking. She didn't hesitate to return it to me. I don't think refund is a good word to use Jen. Its not like I was unsatisfied or anything. I just fucked up and gave the wrong bill.
bem401
08-04-2007, 01:19 PM
Customers tip $20's stage side all the time. I'm surprised she gave it back. She could have reasonably viewed his request as "buyers remorse" or "Damn, I want my $20 back so I can buy a dance from that other girl I just noticed". Personally, I wouldn't have asked for the money back for that reason.
Many guys keep their tip money organized ie: your roll of ones in a certain pocket and your larger bills in another or in your wallet. That reduces the likelihood of that sort of mistake.
FBR
Well FBR, it was only like my 4 th or 5th trip to a strip club and at this point 6 yrs later, I (hope I ) wouldn't make a similar mistake. I was very surprised she gave it back, too. I was not expecting her to. And all this happened within a 3 to 4 minute window. She hadn't even had a chance to sort her money. She came straight from the stage to my seat at the bar, her tips all bunched up.
Katrine
08-04-2007, 01:24 PM
So first you asked her about the extra money, and now she immediately came up to you and offered to give it back? Shens! Shens! Where's Sh0t when you need him?
bem401
08-04-2007, 01:32 PM
So you became her regular because she gave you money back? Not because she was attractive and fun and gave a good dance? Wow, the criteria seems to be changing.
Bem, I'm just calling shens on you, I think you are full of shit, and that story is relatively contrived enough for you to prove your point. Meaning, I'm sure it happened and all, but its just soooo convenient that you bring it up now.
However, if I were in her shoes, I would have been polite and done the same thing, as a courtesy. Moreover, MANY guys have tipped me $20 onstage, so I wouldn't make an effort to tell anyone if they've tipped me that amount or greater. I just assumed they like me. Stripping isn't a game of "maybe" strategy. There are tried and true things that work, and being a pushover isn't one of them.
And Miabella....I don't know why some girls just can't get hired at any clubs. The only consistent thing that I've seen in my years that prevents girls from being hired is simply not being attractive/fit enough.
I didn't become a regular because she returned the money, but I did make a point of re-visiting her a day or two later She was attractive, fun, and gave among the best dances I've ever gotten. That's what made me a regular. I went back that next day because I felt I "owed " her a dance or two. The regular thing developed from there. At the time all this happened, I was very much a newbie to the scene.
Shens ? what does that mean? Its contrived, yet you believe it happened? And where else would I bring it up?
bem401
08-04-2007, 01:44 PM
OK one final time.
I tipped her on stage right at the very end of her set. She came immediately to my seat 10 ft away from the stage, presumably to try for a PD. She found me sorting through my money looking for the $20. Asked what's wrong. Found out I gave her $20 by mistake. Unexpectedly gave it back to me. I came back a day or so later. Did a dance with her. Eventually I became a regular. And we all lived happily ever after.
Lapaholic
08-04-2007, 05:37 PM
Shenagins BEM--- I believe Katrine is saying u r full of shit.... Luckily I watch my South Park ...
This seems like more a customer service type of thing than a "moral" or "ethical" situation. Since BEM gave her the dough, it was hers to keep. But her in being nice, earned his respect and a return visit that led to him being a regular. Im not sure why the shenanigans or the "moral" dilemmas. ( Well I understand the shenanigan's but I find it believable.)
Thanks, Lap. I was pretty sure I knew what Kat meant by "shen" but didn't know the derivation of the expression.
Bem made the classic male mistake of not remembering the exact details of something that happened years ago and then when questioned, trying to fill in the gaps which just made it worse. My wife does that shit to me all the time ::)
FBR
Katrine
08-04-2007, 07:39 PM
No, I stand by what I said. Bem is so full of shit I can smell it from here in Texas. But, as I said before, if a custy said he had accidently overtipped me, I would have immediately returned the money as a courtesy. This just doesn't make sense alltogether.
xdamage
08-04-2007, 08:43 PM
This seems like more a customer service type of thing than a "moral" or "ethical" situation.
For me I don't think there is any such thing as absolute morals or ethics; it's simply a matter of what do the majority of the people think if put in the same situation. Often the best way to get at the heart of an ethics question is to reverse shoes. So for example, say a dancer takes a cab ride to the club, and it's a short ride, so she plans on giving the cabby a few bucks tip, but by accident hands the cabby a $20 and two ones. Does she a.) feel it's right that the cabby keep it, or b.) feel that it's better human behavior if the cabby gives it back since it was a mistake on her part?
That's it. Nothing more complex then that for me. Now cabbies make $20 tips some times, even for short rides (e.g., when the customer is in rush), so this example is analogous. And if the bottom line is that the dancer chooses "a" the she is at least consistent in her sense of ethics, but if she would choose "b" because in that situation it benefits here, while in bem's case it did not, then my conclusion would be that she acts unethically when it benefits here using her own definition of ethics.
mr_punk
08-05-2007, 08:07 AM
Like I believe in good customer service - I'm one of the strippers that punk would call a girl scout insofar as I do want customers to enjoy their experience and be glad that they spent the money whether or not they are coming back.LOL....that's not why i call you ladies girl scouts, or mormons or temple virgins, etc.
When I first started clubbing ( at this point I had never done more than individual song PD's ), I visited a girl on stage that I thought was attractive and I mistakenly tipped her a $20 and 2 $1's instead of 3 $1's. at the end of her set i said to her " I think I gave you a $20 by mistake".an obvious mistake. $22 is a strange amount.
Customers tip $20's stage side all the time. I'm surprised she gave it back. She could have reasonably viewed his request as "buyers remorse" or "Damn, I want my $20 back so I can buy a dance from that other girl I just noticed". Personally, I wouldn't have asked for the money back for that reason. Many guys keep their tip money organized ie: your roll of ones in a certain pocket and your larger bills in another or in your wallet. That reduces the likelihood of that sort of mistake.i'm not in that group. obviously, i have no love for the stage and no stage show is worth $20. having said that, i have mistakenly tipped a stripper $20 on stage. i usually keep my small bills in on pocket and a large tip roll of large bills in the other. anyway, i must have put a $20 in the wrong stack. i knew something was a bit off when the stripper practically molested me stage side. i was thinking "WTF is her problem? it was just a fin.", until i noticed the $20 in her garter.
now, it was no big deal to me. if anything, i was more nonplussed about how the bill got mixed-up rather than thinking the stripper was being unethical or something. however, if i asked for my money back and she refused. it would have been a totally different story. sorry guys, but save the arm-twisting lectures about ungentlemanly behavior and cheapness for sunday school. if this happened in any other business. no one would have a problem with asking for the money back, but when it involves a woman taking off her clothes. all of a sudden people check their brains at the door.
Jenny
08-05-2007, 07:30 PM
now, it was no big deal to me. if anything, i was more nonplussed about how the bill got mixed-up rather than thinking the stripper was being unethical or something. however, if i asked for my money back and she refused. it would have been a totally different story. sorry guys, but save the arm-twisting lectures about ungentlemanly behavior and cheapness for sunday school. if this happened in any other business. no one would have a problem with asking for the money back, but when it involves a woman taking off her clothes. all of a sudden people check their brains at the door.I already said I don't think it is unique to strippers. If I were tipping in a restaurant, it would have to be a pretty gross amount before I'd march in and ask for it back. (And $20 is not THAT much.) And it doesn't involve a discussion of gentlemen or cheapness or anyone taking her (or his) clothes off. It's just a matter of - it is generally (not just by men in a strip club) considered rude to tip and then ask for the money back; so there should be (in my opinion) something pretty serious weighing down on the other side of that rudeness - and like I said, a $20 stage tip is not THAT much. Like whether you get your money back or not - in any establishment where you left a large, but not obscene, tip and then came back to ask for its return you would be the subject of indignant mockery and ridicule. Did none of you ever wait tables in college?
mr_punk
08-06-2007, 05:11 AM
LOL..what? oh, you must be in another one of your moods to fight. in any event, trying to rationalize your entitlement to his money on the basis that the tipper is somehow being discourteous isn't mitigated by the fact that (a) the amount of money and whether or not it's considered discourteous is irrelevant because (b) ultimately, the money was given in error. the customer never intended to give X amount of dollars and he wants his money back. so, act like a effing pro and give it back instead of acting like a weasel.
Like whether you get your money back or not - in any establishment where you left a large, but not obscene, tip and then came back to ask for its return you would be the subject of indignant mockery and ridicule.like i said, save the social arm-twisting and shakedowns for sunday school or CC, sister. LOL..anyway, i hope it's clear why i sarcastically refer to you ladies as mormons and girl scouts.
Jenny
08-06-2007, 05:33 AM
in any event, trying to rationalize your entitlement to his money
I already said that it has nothing to do with either my personal entitlement or any stripper's entitlement.
on the basis that the tipper is somehow being discourteous isn't mitigated by the fact that (a) the amount of money and whether or not it's considered discourteous is irrelevant because (b) ultimately, the money was given in error. the customer never intended to give X amount of dollars and he wants his money back.
I have no idea what you are talking about here.
so, act like a effing pro and give it back instead of acting like a weasel.
Oh yes. I really need your advice on how to act professional. Tell me that part about wadded up napkins again and nylon shorts again?
like i said, save the social arm-twisting and shakedowns for sunday school or CC, sister. LOL..anyway, i hope it's clear why i sarcastically refer to you ladies as mormons and girl scouts.Well we do all know that "social arm twisting" aka social niceties and courtesies and treating service providers like actual people worthy of, you know, politeness is not really your thing. But it really is mine. Anyway. I'm kind of professionally charming, with a lot of old friends, exes I'm still friends with and reasonable to excellent prospects from the opposite sex. You are bitter, divorced three times, probably live with your mother, by your own admission have an incredibly small penis and have to pay for all human contact. Tough call. Hmm. Tell me that part about sunday school again?
bem401
08-06-2007, 05:38 AM
Like whether you get your money back or not - in any establishment where you left a large, but not obscene, tip and then came back to ask for its return you would be the subject of indignant mockery and ridicule. Did none of you ever wait tables in college?
As customers in the stripclubs, aren't we already subjected to indignant mockery and ridicule in the first place?There seems to be no shortage of comtempt for customers coming from the pink side.
I did wait tables for 5 years while i was in school and if someone overtipped me, I'd return the money or do what you said you'd do - point out the denomination of the bill. Furthermore, if a waiter can expect a $3 tip on a $20 check, and instead gets a $22 tip on that same check, he knows damn well something is probably wrong.
I suspect she returned the money because she knew it was a mistake. I probably spent less than a minute at the rail and if memory serves me that was the very first time we met. If she knew me, it might have been different, but under the circumstances, the only way she could see it was as a mistake by me. She did the right thing by taking the position of " take the money and run".
LilyLove
08-06-2007, 06:00 AM
^ I've never second guessed a guy who gave me 20 dollars at the tip rail, even guys who marched up from the dark recesses of the club and then promptly dissapeared. Why in the world would I assume it was a mistake? I know I deserve great tips because I'm a good dancer and am reasonably hot. I get big tips all the time from guys who haven't had a chance to talk to me in person and have only briefly seen me dance.
I think it would make me look bad and make the customer think that I thought he was mistaken in tipping me if I went up to every guy who tipped me a ten or a twenty or a fifty and asked if he really meant to give me that ammount. Not to mention that it would be a huge waste of time.
Jenny
08-06-2007, 06:21 AM
Like I said bem - if it was a gross amount it might be different. $20 at a stripper's tip rail is not THAT much. I mean, it's generous, but hardly obscene. Like, you might as well go up and say "I meant to give you a $1 not a $5, or "I meant to give you 3 $1s not 4." $100, however, although not unheard IS kind of obscene. And yes, even if the amount of the tip was merely "generous" you would likely get your money back, because you've been discourteous and created a socially awkward situation in which someone can only meet your discourtesy by accommodating it or being discourteous back. It doesn't make being discourteous a good idea.
As for dancers holding you in contempt - I don't know that I can take such a complaint seriously on the heels of a customer asking for the return of a reasonable tip. I mean - (do I have to say it?) - no freaking wonder.
mr_punk
08-06-2007, 06:32 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about here.of course not, that's why it called selective amnesia, red.
Well we do all know that "social arm twisting" aka social niceties and courtesies and treating service providers like actual people worthy of, you know, politeness is not really your thing.well, this particular instance has nothing to do with politeness. it's one thing if the customer intended to give x amount of dollars as a tip and asks for it back. however, in this instance, x amount of dollars was given in error and was never intended to be given in the first place. he's should be perfectly free to ask for it back without being subject to mockery, ridicule or feelings of entitlement on the stripper's part.
I'm kind of professionally charming, with a lot of old friends, exes I'm still friends with and reasonable to excellent prospects from the opposite sex. You are bitter, divorced three times, probably live with your mother, by your own admission have an incredibly small penis and have to pay for all human contact. Tough call. Hmm. Tell me that part about sunday school again?LOL. i'm sorry, but is this supposed to be a cogent argument? nonetheless, that's my little barracuda. i just love it when you girls drop the temple virgin act and throw a little princess tantrum.
I think it would make me look bad and make the customer think that I thought he was mistaken in tipping me if I went up to every guy who tipped me a ten or a twenty or a fifty and asked if he really meant to give me that ammount. Not to mention that it would be a huge waste of time.actually, i'm not even remotely asking you to second guess every customer. all i'm saying is if he tells you he made an error and overtipped you. the stripper should correct the mistake. it's the only time you have to take action. otherwise, don't worry about it.
Jenny
08-06-2007, 06:47 AM
of course not, that's why it called selective amnesia, red.
Or just lack of clarity on your part.
well, this particular instance has nothing to do with politeness. it's one thing if the customer intended to give x amount of dollars as a tip and asks for it back. however, in this instance, x amount of dollars was given in error and was never intended to be given in the first place. he's should be perfectly free to ask for it back without being subject to mockery, ridicule or feelings of entitlement on the stripper's part.
Except for. The service provider (of any kind - not just dancers) has no way of differentiating the first and second situation; the service provider actually has no way of knowing that the customer was even telling the truth, that as a stripper you do your "stage side performance" based on that denomination, and and it is just unbelievably cheap and bald to take back a merely generous tip (seriously - around here a 15% tip is the norm. If I tip 25% (generous, not ridiculous) and then ask for it back giving "it was a mistake, I actually meant to tip 13%" as an excuse - yes, I would be mocked, ridiculed and there would be a sense of entitlement). As for him being free - well, nobody is going to imprison him, but I don't think that a person in that situation does have the right to be free from mockery, ridicule or irritation.
LOL. i'm sorry, but is this supposed to be a cogent argument? nonetheless, that's my little barracuda. i just love it when you girls drop the temple virgin act and throw a little princess tantrum.
Really it was more a pondering on why anyone would ever think that your way of socially constructing the world could ever have anything lacking. As that - I think it is pretty on point.
bem401
08-06-2007, 06:48 AM
^ I've never second guessed a guy who gave me 20 dollars at the tip rail, even guys who marched up from the dark recesses of the club and then promptly dissapeared. Why in the world would I assume it was a mistake? I know I deserve great tips because I'm a good dancer and am reasonably hot. I get big tips all the time from guys who haven't had a chance to talk to me in person and have only briefly seen me dance.
I think it would make me look bad and make the customer think that I thought he was mistaken in tipping me if I went up to every guy who tipped me a ten or a twenty or a fifty and asked if he really meant to give me that ammount. Not to mention that it would be a huge waste of time.
No one ever said you should assume it was a mistake and no one is saying you should confirm the guy tipped what he meant to tip. The question is : if both parties know the tip was in error, what do you do?
bem401
08-06-2007, 07:04 AM
Like I said bem - if it was a gross amount it might be different. $20 at a stripper's tip rail is not THAT much. I mean, it's generous, but hardly obscene. Like, you might as well go up and say "I meant to give you a $1 not a $5, or "I meant to give you 3 $1s not 4." $100, however, although not unheard IS kind of obscene. And yes, even if the amount of the tip was merely "generous" you would likely get your money back, because you've been discourteous and created a socially awkward situation in which someone can only meet your discourtesy by accommodating it or being discourteous back. It doesn't make being discourteous a good idea.
As for dancers holding you in contempt - I don't know that I can take such a complaint seriously on the heels of a customer asking for the return of a reasonable tip. I mean - (do I have to say it?) - no freaking wonder.
Well Jenny, let me pose a question to you; lets say I buy a 3-song dance from you for $60. I pay you with a $100 bill. You think you goive me 2 20's change but I find out you gave me 3 20's while you are freshening up in the dressing room. What should I do? I know what I would do but what do you think I should do? What if while back in the DR you realized you gave me too much, what should you do?
As far as the contempt comment is concerned. whether or not I "asked" for my money back has nothing to do with how dancers in general look men in the club.
Jenny
08-06-2007, 07:22 AM
Well Jenny, let me pose a question to you; lets say I buy a 3-song dance from you for $60. I pay you with a $100 bill. You think you goive me 2 20's change but I find out you gave me 3 20's while you are freshening up in the dressing room. What should I do? I know what I would do but what do you think I should do? What if while back in the DR you realized you gave me too much, what should you do?
There is a fixed price for dances, and you know I'm not tipping you. That isn't analogous to you giving me a generous tip. That is analogous to taking more change back from a cashier than you know you are owed. I don't do that either. I've already said that in a similar situation (that is, I've overtipped but not grossly) I wouldn't ask for it back. If that was unclear - in cases where I've overtipped, but not grossly, I wouldn't ask for it back.
As far as the contempt comment is concerned. whether or not I "asked" for my money back has nothing to do with how dancers in general look men in the club.
Of course it does. My point is, that it is kind of hard to take a customer complaining that we treat him with contempt seriously when he is describing how he behaves contemptibly. (Sort of like mr_punk telling me to behave professionally).
rockie
08-06-2007, 07:32 AM
Bem: Haven't you learned by now, it's Jenny's way or the highway!
Jenny
08-06-2007, 07:35 AM
Bem: Haven't you learned by now, it's Jenny's way or the highway!
Oh I'm sorry. Maybe all the boys would like me more if I twirled my hair and said "Don't ask me; I'm just a girl! So, what do you guys think of my breasts? Do you think I'm pretty?"
rockie
08-06-2007, 07:42 AM
Or maybe there's more than one type of hustle in a stripclub. The dancer who inquires about the legitimacy of a $22 tip as part of her - You can trust me sale! Jenny - You are more than capable of debating, but do like to beat a dead horse!
Docido
08-06-2007, 07:44 AM
:argue: :beat: :banghead:
bem401
08-06-2007, 07:55 AM
There is a fixed price for dances, and you know I'm not tipping you. That isn't analogous to you giving me a generous tip. That is analogous to taking more change back from a cashier than you know you are owed. I don't do that either. I've already said that in a similar situation (that is, I've overtipped but not grossly) I wouldn't ask for it back. If that was unclear - in cases where I've overtipped, but not grossly, I wouldn't ask for it back.
I see them as being exactly the same. One party gave the other party more money than was intended. Rectifying the situation is clearly the right thing to do in both cases. I agree my situation was an awkward one because of the nature of the payments, but think about it. I spent 30 seconds at the stage . For that 30 seconds, she had a right to expect a tip, probably $1. I meant to tip her $3, triple what she had a right to expect. I gave her $22, which was 7 times more than I meant to give and 22 times more than she probably expected. To me that's a significant difference. Please don't throw the fact that you get $20 and $50 tips on stage all the time at me. First off, it doesn't happen all that frequently, at least around here. And secondly, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The fact that other guys give ridiculous tips doesn't mean you should expect the same from me anymore than the fact that some girls do extras means I should expect that from you.
Of course it does. My point is, that it is kind of hard to take a customer complaining that we treat him with contempt seriously when he is describing how he behaves contemptibly. (Sort of like mr_punk telling me to behave professionally).
My point has little to do with me or my experience. I'm talking about the average dancer's view of the average customer.
xdamage
08-06-2007, 07:59 AM
This seems to have gotten off track. It started with this:
bem wrote...
I visited a girl on stage that I thought was attractive and I mistakenly tipped her a $20 and 2 $1's instead of 3 $1's. at the end of her set i said to her " I think I gave you a $20 by mistake". She promptly flipped through her stack of bills, saw the $20, and handed it right back to me.
Jenny replies...
See - interesting. I'm not sure I would have given it back, and I don't see accepting a large tip and then refusing to refund it as unethical.
Bem didn't ever suggest that she should have to "guess" when she is over tipped. However in this case the situation was such that it was clear that bem had over tipped. The girl chose to give it back, which bem appreciated it and engaged in more business with her later.
Jenny, your first response is why the reaction... you were very clear that if you were in the same situation you might "not" give it back. You've been back peddling and side-tracking since then.
As for feeling that the customer is cheap, worthy of mockery, and indignation. Sure, human nature. People engage in emotions because they are what work. In this case, seeing the customer as cheap, worthy of mockery, and indignation are what what is most likely to cause the customer to let it go and let the overpaid keep the extra money. It's not even necessarily done consciously, in fact emotions work best when we fully believe them (the best actors are often the ones who blur reality and act), but all of that aside, people do make mistakes, and if a customer over tips and wants his money back, he or she may choose to ask for it back.
Bem's point was (originally) that if the overpaid chooses to keep the extra money, in the long run they may make a lot less then if they give it back. Seems like common sense and good business to me. OTOH the short-sighted person would probably just fight to keep the over-tip because it's clearly in their benefit over the short term.
bem401
08-06-2007, 08:00 AM
Bem: Haven't you learned by now, it's Jenny's way or the highway!
I'm still holding hope that someday, some way, she'll give an inch. LOL.
Unfortunately, there is no impartial arbiter to determine who wins.
rockie
08-06-2007, 08:03 AM
"I spent 30 seconds at the stage . For that 30 seconds, she had a right to expect a tip, probably $1. I meant to tip her $3, triple what she had a right to expect."
Bem: I'm sorry, I misjudged you! You like the beating!
Jenny: I'm sorry, Bash on! He lost me on the tip entitlement view which I hadn't seen in this post. I can believe his scenario as it plays out in his club of choice, but I bail when we discusss it as a matter of tip entitlement. I think I'll go twirl what's left of my hair!
bem401
08-06-2007, 08:15 AM
"I spent 30 seconds at the stage . For that 30 seconds, she had a right to expect a tip, probably $1. I meant to tip her $3, triple what she had a right to expect."
Bem: I'm sorry, I misjudged you! You like the beating!
Jenny: I'm sorry, Bash on! He lost me on the tip entitlement view which I hadn't seen in this post. I can believe his scenario as it plays out in his club of choice, but I bail when we discusss it as a matter of tip entitlement. I think I'll go twirl what's left of my hair!
Rockie: What's the problem? If I visit the stage I ought to tip. If a girl dances in front of me, she ought to get a tip. I brought up the 30 seconds because the fact it was such a brief encounter is relevant. If I stayed there for the entire 15 or 20 minute set, it would be a different story. Some of the girls brought up the notion of tip entitlement because other guys tip 20's and 50's and what not. The funny thing is I feel like I am defending myself and the dancer at this stage.
Jenny
08-06-2007, 08:43 AM
I see them as being exactly the same. One party gave the other party more money than was intended.
Um, okay. But you do realize that assertion is just... wrong, right? Like there is more to the situation than "one party gave the other party more money than was intended"? And me, I tend to think that the situation and context and reasons for giving the money, matters. Like, if I'm giving a panhandler my change, I think that a different set of rules and courtesy and expectation applies than when I'm buying ice cream from the store. Saying "but they are the exact same because there is an exchange of money" is... well, not exactly useful, is it? And as I said - in your situation or in another situation in which I overtipped, I would not ask for the money back.
To me that's a significant difference.
It is a significant difference. It is a generous tip. But it is not such an obscenely generous tip that it really warrants asking for it back.
Please don't throw the fact that you get $20 and $50 tips on stage all the time at me. First off, it doesn't happen all that frequently, at least around here. And secondly, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The fact that other guys give ridiculous tips doesn't mean you should expect the same from me anymore than the fact that some girls do extras means I should expect that from you.
I don't "expect" it. It is merely a fact that $20, while generous, is not unreasonable and it probably does happen all the time, and it's not a "ridiculous" amount. And while here there is really no tipping at all, when I've worked places with tips I would regularly get $10 and $20 tips, and occasionally $50 and $100. My point is not that you are obliged to tip $20 - it is that the amount is not so outlandish as to justify being discourteous. Sort of like tipping a server 25-30% rather than 15%. Generous - yes. Going in and asking for it to be returned would be weird.
My point has little to do with me or my experience. I'm talking about the average dancer's view of the average customer.
I don't know that you really have a point. I just don't think that after marching up and demanding the return of a reasonable tip you (like you personally) are in a good position to complain about dancers holding customers in contempt. Next time I (like me, I, personally) strut on down here and brag about stealing a customers wallet and then complain that customers think dancers are dishonest I'm sure you will think that me and my personal experience certainly impacts the way I'm entitled to be thought of by customers.
rockie
08-06-2007, 08:44 AM
I believe your scenario as origonally stated! I understand where your coming from. I will not defend or discuss a specific $3 tip entitlement. It's a no win conversation. Good Luck to all!
yoda57us
08-06-2007, 09:22 AM
As customers in the stripclubs, aren't we already subjected to indignant mockery and ridicule in the first place?There seems to be no shortage of comtempt for customers coming from the pink side.
Bem, when you read most of the pink side you are basically eves-dropping on locker room talk. The ladies know that we may be reading it but they simply don't care. Most of pink is not intended for customer interaction. It is a web site intended for dancer support.
Is what the ladies say in pink really any less respectful than what some customers say about dancers behind their backs? Doubtful. Read SCL, TUSCL, USA Sex Guide etc for a few hours and tell me that ridicule and disdain isn't present on both sides of the tip rail.
As for dancers holding you in contempt - I don't know that I can take such a complaint seriously on the heels of a customer asking for the return of a reasonable tip. I mean - (do I have to say it?) - no freaking wonder.
It's tough to disagree with this. Honestly Bem, even if I tipped a dancer $20 by mistake I would never ask for it back or even accept it voluntarily from the lady. Nickel and dimming dancers over drinks, tips, and their time is just not what clubs are about for me. I go to have a good time. I'm not a high roller by any stretch of the imagination but spreading around some cash is, quite simply, what it's all about in a strip club.
yoda57us
08-06-2007, 09:39 AM
I'm still holding hope that someday, some way, she'll give an inch. LOL.
Give it enough time, that hope will pass....
Unfortunately, there is no impartial arbiter to determine who wins.
Winner? This is a message board. The debate is the fun part! We don't need no stinking winners...
xdamage
08-06-2007, 09:57 AM
I see them as being exactly the same. One party gave the other party more money than was intended. Rectifying the situation is clearly the right thing to do in both cases.
I see them as different if the issue revolves around whether or not the overpaid should initiate returning the extra money, otherwise same or nearly so if the issue revolves around if the overpayee asks for a refund, which is how the situation started (and has since been derailed).
I also notice nobody responded to the cabby analogy, tipping $22 when $3 was intended. I can only guess that's an affirmative then, that most of this is noise, and the only real difference between one situation and another is that in one case the dancer benefits, and in the other not.
Finally there is a subtle difference as to the dynamics in the SC. The dynamics are this... In an OTC situation women do partially judge potential male partners by how generous they are with tips, drinks, gifts, gestures, etc. Even though ITC is a completely different scenario, people do what works, and what works is for dancers to judge men in the club based on their generosity. I'm not even saying they are fully cognizant that they do this, as I said, the best hustlers have no tells, and the best way to have no tells is to believe your own hustle, but the point is dancers in SCs will often behave towards men in ways that they would OTC *IF* it increases their probability of making more money. So basically when it comes to generosity (e.g., large tips), or cheapness (e.g., asking for a refund due to over-tipping) women in the club often do judge a man in a way similar to how she judges a man OTC.
Now the question is whether or not you care more about how they judge you in this regard, or about the money you tipped. On the flip side you may well get a better SC experience if you feed into the hustle.
What is true is that if a dancer refuses to give back the extra money (as Jenny first replied that she is not so sure she would), the customer will do the normal human thing and apply some of their own emotional reactions to try and persuade her to return the money including --- perceiving her as unethical, as a weasel, as un-trustable and not worth doing future business with.
And as to whether or not the dancer cares that the customer perceives her this way... /shrug, if she doesn't care then she really has no issue with the customer not carrying how she feels either. Ultimately it still comes down to a mistake was made, either the dancer will benefit from it or she won't, and while I'd say her choice is very telling about her personality, no law has been broken so we can only get so worked up over it (which isn't much).
Jenny
08-06-2007, 10:00 AM
Give it enough time, that hope will pass....What? I've said "good point" occasionally.
But fine...
okay. So. I don't have any photos but I'll post some as soon as I can. But I have the area, like right behind my knee (I don't remember what it's called), and... well... I'm afraid it looks fat. I mean, it's toned; there are no rolls or anything, but it's not thin you know? Customers don't seem to mind, but I'd really like your opinion here. So I was wondering... would you guys buy a dance from a girl with thick, but toned, backs of knees? Or would that be a deal breaker for you?
Better? Will I be popular with boys now? Or do I actually need to post photos of my knee backs for your judgment first?
bem401
08-06-2007, 10:35 AM
Um, okay. But you do realize that assertion is just... wrong, right? Like there is more to the situation than "one party gave the other party more money than was intended"? And me, I tend to think that the situation and context and reasons for giving the money, matters. Like, if I'm giving a panhandler my change, I think that a different set of rules and courtesy and expectation applies than when I'm buying ice cream from the store. Saying "but they are the exact same because there is an exchange of money" is... well, not exactly useful, is it? And as I said - in your situation or in another situation in which I overtipped, I would not ask for the money back.
I'm not so sure you want to bring panhandling into this argument. First we were comparing a dancer's being over-tipped to incorrect change from a store. And now you want to compare panhandling and the store. One could draw the conclusion that you are likening dancers to panhandlers. And I don't think that is the point you mean to make.
And let me say one more time, this happened nearly 6 years ago. I don't recall specifically asking for money back, but the girl was next to me when we discovered I had given it to her. I guess she had no choice but to offer it back but I didn't put her in that position. Its not like I was waiting outside the DR for her, looking to put her on the spot.
And Yoda, when I said pink side I meant dancers in general. Nothing I read on the pink board surprises me. I have heard it all and worse in person.
Regarding the money, I would not ask for it back nowadays but I was brand-spanking new to the scene when this happened.
yoda57us
08-06-2007, 10:43 AM
What? I've said "good point" occasionally.
Why yes, I think you may have even said it to me...once.../:O
Lapaholic
08-06-2007, 11:05 AM
Oh I'm sorry. Maybe all the boys would like me more if I twirled my hair and said "Don't ask me; I'm just a girl! So, what do you guys think of my breasts? Do you think I'm pretty?"
I like u cause u r feisty - Of course u r prolly some 43 year old fat guy with a triple chin and d cup man boobs who smells like 3 day old cheese ;)
But its amazing how a little example of being amenable ( ie BEM's dancer giving him his money back ) has grown into the debate of situational ethics and high drama ... Guess i should be used to it by now. But it seems there is some agreement that if u gave it in error u can request it back. By the same token, the receiver has no ethical reason to give it back. ITs just shows that people - even dancers - can be nice. What is so wrong with that? Does that make BEM a cheap bastard - which is what i think Jenny is saying - well maybe but he admits he was a newbie at the time. But he made a mistake, she gave it back and in the end she made out like a bandit with a nice regular customer. Sounds win-win to me.
Funny how this convo started with the dancer who adds a phantom dance to a her count to get more money from her custy. I still havent heard a dancer cry foul!!! Situational ethics indeed!!
Now about those breasts....
rockie
08-06-2007, 12:04 PM
Come on Yoda! Don't go soft on us now! There is no hope!
yoda57us
08-06-2007, 12:09 PM
I like u cause u r feisty - Of course u r prolly some 43 year old fat guy with a triple chin and d cup man boobs who smells like 3 day old cheese ;)
Dude, your killin' me! Next your gonna tell me that Katrine is a middle aged dentist in Oxnard..../:O
Come on Yoda! Don't go soft on us now! There is no hope!
Huh?
Jenny
08-06-2007, 12:11 PM
I like u cause u r feisty - Of course u r prolly some 43 year old fat guy with a triple chin and d cup man boobs who smells like 3 day old cheese ;)
I'm sorry, would that be a problem for you? You, what? DISLIKE triple chins and 3 day old cheese?
rockie
08-06-2007, 12:22 PM
Why yes, I think you may have even said it to me...once.../:O
Yoda:The one time was probably the result of sleep deprivation. Jenny is stellar in her relentlessness! Don't succumb!
yoda57us
08-06-2007, 12:40 PM
Yoda:The one time was probably the result of sleep deprivation. Jenny is stellar in her relentlessness! Don't succumb!
Lol, Sorry to shatter your image of me Rockie but, in spite of my sarcasm, I tend to agree with Jenny much more than disagree....
Don't tell her I said that, it's a secret.....8)
Katrine
08-06-2007, 01:08 PM
Dude, your killin' me! Next your gonna tell me that Katrine is a middle aged dentist in Oxnard..../:O
Huh?
Aha, my disguise was very convincing then when we met yodachka!
This is all so simple it isn't even funny
1. Tipping and paying for dances are different. Apples: oranges
2. If a patron overtipped the dancer onstage and asked for it back, naturally he would be pissed if she didn't, and would no longer patronize her.
3. If dancer does give it back, it should be out of courtesy. However, if said patron asks for $20 back and then attempts to monopolize her time without paying out anymore, he WILL become a laughingstock for being a greedy,cheapass.
4. $20 tips aren't that uncommon and it doesn't be-hoove dancers to offer them back. HOWEVER, when a smart dancer receives a large tip, she will likely go to the table of the patron as soon as she can. Then, the tipping issue is usually resolved...by dances.
I still have my doubts about Bem's story. The numbers just don't add up. $3K in 3 months from someone who is an obvious and admitted cheapass? My experience tells me otherwise.