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Richard_Head
08-07-2007, 10:32 PM
Barry Bonds hit HR number 756 tonight >:(.

I sure hope they stick an asterisk next to this record >:(.

azdd
08-07-2007, 11:02 PM
Barry Bonds hit HR number 756 tonight >:(.

I sure hope they stick an asterisk next to this record >:(.

OK, I don't want to start a flame war with my buddy RH here, but I don't think there should be an asterisk for Bonds. Don't you think the pitching he batted against for most of his career was superior to that faced by Ruth, Aaron, Mays, etc.? Don't all pro players benefit today from major advances in sports science, sports medicine, sophisticated training methods, that past players didn't have (hitters and pitchers)? Are we supposed to believe that all athletes over the past century would truly be on a level playing field if you removed ONLY steroids from the equation?

Besides, barring a career ending injury or stupidity off the field, A-Rod will probably break Bonds' record in the not-too-distant future anyway.

OK RH and Sporty, go easy on me.....
:)

Richard_Head
08-08-2007, 07:44 AM
Come on now azdd, I wouldn't call it so much taking advantage of advances in sports sciences, sports medicine, sophisticated training methods as much as I'd call it CHEATING, look at the guys head from crying out loud it's huge, I really don't see that as something that should be rewarded. Give me that asterisk!!!

bem401
08-08-2007, 12:43 PM
Don't you think the pitching he batted against for most of his career was superior to that faced by Ruth, Aaron, Mays, etc.? :)

I wouldn't say that is necessarily the case. When Ruth played there were what, a dozen teams? When Aaron played maybe 20 to 24? Now there are somewhere in the 30's. The league had less spots available for pitchers ( or any other position for that matter). Expansion dilutes the overall talent level. By sheer mathematics,2/3 of the pichers Bonds faces nowadays would not have found themselves on a major league team if they had played in Ruth's era and nearly 1/2 in Aaron's/Mays' day. I'm more of a hockey guy but here's an analogy: hockey used to have 6 NHL teams. Now they are in the 30's. Don't you think it was harder to make the roster back then. Same thing with pitching staffs.

Sporty can probably give a more authoritative analysis than me though.

yoda57us
08-08-2007, 01:15 PM
There are dozens of variables involved but, in my opinion only one thing matters: Baseball allowed this to happen. The NFL had substance abuse and steroid baning years ago. MLB ignored the problem and cow-towed to the players union until the issue became an embarrassment and the government had to step in. We live in the era we live in. There is no asterisk for gutless short-sighted greed and stupidity.

doc-catfish
08-08-2007, 01:28 PM
You can really make an argument that any of the home run record holders have had something that might have "tainted" their record, even Babe Ruth. I think we often forget that back in Ruth's day, baseball was not as refined a sport as it is now, and using middle and closing relief pitchers was not commonplace back then. I wonder how many of Ruth's home runs came in late innings off a dead arm pitcher.

Just the same, another thing that has contributed to the rise in home runs over the past fifteen years or so is that all of the big multipurpose cookie cutter stadiums which were more aptly designed for football have been replaced with neo-traditional bandbox ballparks that are more hitter friendly. That being said, the Giants stadium is NOT considered a hitters park, and to my knowledge neither were the other ballparks where BB played home games over his career. So go figure.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?sort=HRFactor&season=2007

As far as any guilt of being juiced, well if BB is guilty then a lot of other guys are going to have to face the music along with him. Perhaps we should asterisk their records too.

In any case, I'm stunned how much different Barry looks now, as compared to 20 years ago.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/babesthatlovebaseball/Rookie%20To%20Now/Barry_Bonds.gif

dlabtot
08-08-2007, 02:08 PM
He's earned a place in the Hall of Fame - right next to Pete Rose.

lestat1
08-08-2007, 03:37 PM
We're debating which of the men who bash a ball with a stick for a living should be recognized and rewarded the most?

(Can you tell I'm not a sports fan?)

GenWar
08-08-2007, 04:36 PM
Everything I would say, as a Bonds supporter, has been said.

The only thing I would add is that...I am first and foremost a GIANTS fan and not a Bonds fan. And yesterday was not a good day for me. So what if barry hit a half a million dollar ball. The Nationals won 8-6. :(

-gen

GenWar
08-08-2007, 04:41 PM
There are dozens of variables involved but, in my opinion only one thing matters: Baseball allowed this to happen. The NFL had substance abuse and steroid baning years ago. MLB ignored the problem and cow-towed to the players union until the issue became an embarrassment and the government had to step in. We live in the era we live in. There is no asterisk for gutless short-sighted greed and stupidity.

This is a damn fine point. If I were commissioner of baseball, there would be no steroids. Of course, I would probably have a short tenure and a LOT of damn fine players would be banned and I would be the most hated man in the history of the sport...but there would be no steroids.

Personally, I fully believe that Barry could have and would have broken Hank's record without the juice. And that is what is truly sad...

-gen

SportsWriter2
08-08-2007, 06:48 PM
In any case, I'm stunned how much different Barry looks now, as compared to 20 years ago.
I looked at his Pirates card and thought, "Would Richard Pryor have been as funny of he hadn't freebased?"

I kind of like the freakdom of it all. He was way out there in 2004 with the 232 walks and .609 OBP. I just don't care much about home runs anymore. I'm into triples now. I saw this sex ed abstinence slogan that said, "I made the pledge to stop at third..."?

Ever wonder if you could hit one out of the park and just stop at third? :-\

SportsWriter2
08-08-2007, 06:58 PM
Personally, I fully believe that Barry could have and would have broken Hank's record without the juice. And that is what is truly sad...
I agree, Gen, especially if he had gotten intense about upper body development a little earlier in his career. It's all about eye-to-hand coordination, and the extra strength gives you bat speed.

Richard_Head
08-08-2007, 08:07 PM
There are dozens of variables involved but, in my opinion only one thing matters: Baseball allowed this to happen. The NFL had substance abuse and steroid baning years ago. MLB ignored the problem and cow-towed to the players union until the issue became an embarrassment and the government had to step in. We live in the era we live in. There is no asterisk for gutless short-sighted greed and stupidity.No doubt that the owners are somewhat complicit in this whole fiasco but at the same time should they really need to have rules telling players not to use ILLEGAL drugs?


We're debating which of the men who bash a ball with a stick for a living should be recognized and rewarded the most?

(Can you tell I'm not a sports fan?)Should have guessed it, damn metrosexuals;D.


Personally, I fully believe that Barry could have and would have broken Hank's record without the juice. And that is what is truly sad... I don't know about that, although there's no doubt he'd have been Hall of Fame worthy even without the juice.

lestat1
08-08-2007, 08:17 PM
^^^ :rotfl:

dayzed
08-08-2007, 08:53 PM
Congrats to Barry! The only thing I admire more than his game is his blatant disdain for the loathesome sports media, and his unyielding refusal to play their game.

Dirty Ernie
08-08-2007, 11:08 PM
This is simply the steroids era in baseball history and Bonds' is the poster child. He's taking entirely too much heat for something that has permeated the game for 2 decades. In the "re-bargained" agreement, random testing would only kick in if more than 5% of the players tested positive in a future scheduled test. Well, 7% failed, even knowing when the test date was. Which, if the 40 man rosters were tested, means about 85 players failed to clean themselves out enough to pass. Who knows how many others did manage to cheat the test? I'd guess 3 or 4 times that many. The pitcher Bonds' homered off of was suspended for testing positive. Cheater.

Clubhouses in Aaron's day were notorious for bowls of greenies and "leaded" coffee, so who's to say his performance didn't get a boost from a pharmaceutical he aquired without a scrip. The money in pro sports today is so life changing, players will rationalize anything if it allows them the oppurtunity to grab for that brass ring. NFL, MLB, cycling, the Olympics, all are overrun with better athletes through chemistry.

They will never put an asterisk next to any of Bonds' records, but every fan will be free to apply a mental asterisk when pondering the current era, and I suspect most will.

Howie
08-09-2007, 12:08 AM
I used to love baseball. I knew the batting line up, pitching rotation and batting averages of the players for my home town club. I went to probably 30 home games a year and always watched them on TV when they were playing. When they went on strike years ago, I lost all interest. I could really care less that the HR record has been broken. I don't even watch the World Series any more. I starting to feel the same way about pro football. Haven't seen an NBA game in years. When I see the salaries and life styles of pro atletes and the owners of the franchises, I can't see myself contributing to their excess.

Docido
08-09-2007, 08:01 AM
What I would like is a truth commission. A group created by baseball where players can get amnesty from sanctions or indictments by appearing before the committee and telling who shot up whom. It might be the only way we’ll ever know who was clean and who was juiced.

What really bothers me about this whole controversy is we’re forgetting those players who didn’t cheat. If you still care about fairness, and I do, then what about them? Players like Ken Griffey Jr., who at one time was an even a better all-round athlete than Bonds. As far as anyone knows, Griffey never shot himself up with ground bull testicles, HGH, or steroids. Maybe if he had, his injuries would have healed faster. He might be the one competing for records instead of being one of the great “might-have-beens” of baseball. It's absurd and wrong that players were effectively penalized by following the rules.

So yes, Barry belongs in the Hall of Fame, but I wonder which hat size they’ll choose for the display.

mr_punk
08-09-2007, 08:59 AM
OK, I don't want to start a flame war with my buddy RH here, but I don't think there should be an asterisk for Bonds.actually, i agree.
Don't you think the pitching he batted against for most of his career was superior to that faced by Ruth, Aaron, Mays, etc.? Don't all pro players benefit today from major advances in sports science, sports medicine, sophisticated training methods, that past players didn't have (hitters and pitchers)?first of all, i think it's difficult to compare baseball eras, but having said that. Aaron and Mays played during the time in the 60's when pitching was so dominant MLB had to implement rules changes to help batters, like lowering the pitcher's mound and shrinking the strike zone. unlike today, it actually meant something when a player hit 20 to 30 HR while SO less than a hundred times a season.

Come on now azdd, I wouldn't call it so much taking advantage of advances in sports sciences, sports medicine, sophisticated training methods as much as I'd call it CHEATING, look at the guys head from crying out loud it's huge, I really don't see that as something that should be rewarded.why not? Gaylord Perry strolled into HOF with a tube of lube in his back pocket. although, roids will help a player recover more easily from a grueling 162 game season. roids won't help a player without talent get almost 3000 hits, steal over 500 bases, develop a good enough eye to draw over 2,500 BB and almost 700 IBB or even hit over 700 HR over the course of a career.

Players like Ken Griffey Jr., who at one time was an even a better all-round athlete than Bonds. As far as anyone knows, Griffey never shot himself up with ground bull testicles, HGH, or steroids. Maybe if he had, his injuries would have healed faster. He might be the one competing for records instead of being one of the great “might-have-beens” of baseball. It's absurd and wrong that players were effectively penalized by following the rules.IIRC, long-term steroid use makes one more injury prone. besides, steroids wouldn't have helped Junior. it can't give you back time. he just was unfortunate to run into a really bad string of injuries. the same thing could happen to A-Rod.

Bob_Loblaw
08-09-2007, 07:34 PM
As much as it hurts me to do it, I actually hope A-Rod breaks Bonds' record.

I don't think an asterisk is necessary. The court of public opinion has already sentenced McGwire & Sosa to relative obscurity. That will be Bonds' fate as well.

Richard_Head
08-09-2007, 09:21 PM
As much as it hurts me to do it, I actually hope A-Rod breaks Bonds' record. According to Jose Canseco that may just open a whole new can of worms (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2953302).

GenWar
08-10-2007, 12:02 AM
My friend, Mr. Jones, theorizes that Canseco's "stuff" is just stories of miscellaneous sexual hijinks amongst the players in the locker room, including specifics of A-Rod's rather zealous devotion to bi-sexuality.

Did I mention that Mr. Jones is an avid Red Sox fan?

The weird thing is, after all this "steroid era" crap, I kinda hope he's right...

-gen

doc-catfish
08-10-2007, 07:10 AM
Canseco is going to end up like Jimmy Hoffa if he keeps on spouting on this kind of hoo ha. Maybe those on his shit list can get ex-NBA ref Tim Donaghy involved.
:killer: