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gingerlee
08-18-2007, 01:48 PM
i dislike the way the american public (in general) treats the homeless and the schizophrenic.

about a third of the homeless population is schizophrenic. anyone who has watched someone fall victim to schizophrenia knows it's not a joke or a choice. it's a horrible disease that takes over a persons life and causes many of them to live in complete terror and paranoia.

most of them are "missing" because they've either wandered off from their families or their famlies have forgotten them. most of them can't get a job without very specific treatment and medication over a long period of time.


Thank you. Reading that made me cry, because it's so true. It's not their fault that they are in the position they are in. There will always be scammers, no matter what, but there are so many homeless people that really do need help.

Hatshepsut
08-18-2007, 01:48 PM
i'm going to try not to take offense to this. that isn't true. it just isn't. its only true for SOME PEOPLE. do you know how hard it is for someone who is mentally ill to get by? ok. im not even getting into this.
Yes, I know how hard it is for mentally ill to get by. It's even harder when you don't have the resources, such as medication and therapy. In fact, a lecture in psychiatric nursing was dedicated to community health and how the homeless are a very ignored, very needy group. I took care of a bunch of homeless people who kept checking into the mental hospitals because it was the only place where they could go.

Withdraw your claws, please, and please take the time to read into things rather than lash out on instinct. Not everyone is trying to offend.

Pretty_Penny
08-18-2007, 01:48 PM
How does a person brag in another thread about ripping people off and then lecture in this thread about karma and treatment of others? I either can't put myself in another's person's position as well as I thought, or I've underestimated people's ability to rationalize. Heh, or both.

who are you talking about?

Tart
08-18-2007, 01:49 PM
Hyde I understand what you are saying. I agree with some of what you are coming from

Tart
08-18-2007, 01:52 PM
How does a person brag in another thread about ripping people off and then lecture in this thread about karma and treatment of others? I either can't put myself in another's person's position as well as I thought, or I've underestimated people's ability to rationalize. Heh, or both.

What?

Mr Hyde
08-18-2007, 01:55 PM
I am not defending this...but many mentally ill people can't turn to their families because they have done so much to their families that the family can't take it anymore. My sister is on the verge of this...she is on coke, has made one pseudo-attempt to kill herself, drifts from one dead end job to the next, usually getting fired because she doesn't show up, takes advantage of friends to the point that she has none any more (except a loser BF who takes advantage of her), lies to everyone, manipulates people to get her way...the only way she isn't homeless is because our mom lets her live with her (and take advantage of her). If my mom died tomorrow (and she's old and sick...), my sister would be on the streets...and you know what? I love her, but I wouldn't help her because she'd fuck my shit up...I've see her do it.

She needs mental help, but guess what? She's been prescribed meds...and she doesn't freaking take them. How the hell does one deal with someone like this? And I'm willing to bet a lot of homeless are like this.

Jenny
08-18-2007, 01:58 PM
I am going to add to what I posted before, because I know to some of you I am coming off as heartless...You're not coming off as heartless; I think you're coming off as wrong. Anyone in social work and social service will tell you that the majority - by a long shot - of homeless people are mentally ill, and that the notion of just "lazy homeless" is largely a myth. I mean - you cannot honestly believe that someone sleeping outside on a subway grate has an easier life-of-luxury than you do. If you are honestly telling me that someone in the field told you otherwise, I question what she did, or I question your memory of the event. As for "fixing" somebody's life, or providing them with exhaustive treatment (when effective treatment even exists) - do you know the side effects to some of the treatments? Believe me, a lot of times one is just as incapable of working. Plus - really the handout of my pocket change is really inadequate for that. It is a charitable impulse so that they can get through the day.

Also keep in mind good people, that the majority of people in the US (and Canada for that matter) are exactly 1.5 monthly paychecks away from being homeless.

Mr Hyde
08-18-2007, 02:00 PM
The stats I've seen elsewhere in this thread say that about 1/3rd of the homeless are mentally ill, and I've said they deserve some help. But let's say it's even more...let's say half...

WHat about that rest?

Pretty_Penny
08-18-2007, 02:02 PM
Thank you. Reading that made me cry, because it's so true. It's not their fault that they are in the position they are in. There will always be scammers, no matter what, but there are so many homeless people that really do need help.


NP.

i'd also like to say that one of the biggest reasons most of the homeless people you see are men, is because it is (in general) easier for women to get a "helping hand". i think people are just more willing to help women and children.

people are just so quick to judge. many of us tend to think anyone who is poor or homeless is in that situation because they somehow "deserve" it or "don't work hard enough".

well i grew up in a household with my mother, and her parents. her father was a disabled navy vet and her mother has always been a "house wife" so she never finished school or had a job.

anyway.. my mother worked 2 full time jobs to take care of all of us and we -still- needed food stamps. i know there are a lot of people who take advantage of the system (and they super piss me off) but there are also plenty who do not. it pisses me off to no end when people act high and mighty when someone pulls out full stamps.

i saw my mom get looks MANY times in the grocery store as a kid. none of those people had any fucking clue how hard she worked and how much she did for her dying mentally ill father.

that's what i think of when i see homeless people. i think about the multitude of factors that could have contibuted to them being that way, and the MAJORITY of them are not the person's fault.

not to mention, i've spent money on worse/dumber things. when i was 16 and first started driving, my friend and i saw a homeless guy on the side of the road with a "will work for food" sign. we were going to mcdonalds right down the road anyway, so we decided to get him a meal. we brought it back and handed it to him. i think in the back of our minds we both thought "he probably won't care.. probably just wants money for alcohol..." but he was so thankfull

and as we drove away i saw him SCARFING that food down... like someone who hadn't eaten in a very long time.

that changed the way i thought about things.

Tart
08-18-2007, 02:05 PM
Hyde, I think there are a lot like that. Without a doubt. And honestly without having power of attorney over them and placing them into a mental health facility to get on a schedule of meds etc it's probably impossible.

She sounds like she's manic or bi polar. I had a best friend once that was like that as well, she went from doing great to smoking crack and stealing etc. It was insane the decent into that shit was so quick. She had to get arrested before she understood it's not productive.

I have NO idea how she's doing now though, that was 2.5 years ago.

I think SOME of those that are homeless with a mental illness may fall into the abuser of drugs/drinking and refusing to take meds.

Then there are those ( at least here in chicago ) that without doubt are schizo,older and I believe wander the streets . Seriously..wander. I know the lady behind my flat is like this. We talk a lot. She takes her meds but they make her feel even worse. She has uncontrollable ticks ...drooling etc. It makes it hard for her to even be socially responsive. she sleeps in the shelters a lot but since it's warm out she sleeps in the building next to me that's being built. I think she honestly feels safer. She's 65, bad back ..so much so she's hunched. She has no family. Never had kids. She is on the street because when her parents passed away there was no one to care for her. She became homeless because no other family members wanted the added responsiblites of her life. So they dropped her off at a shelter with her shit.

She doesnt drink and her crew..aka her friends are the same way. They stick together. I like em' actually. Good people. Just bad situation.

And before anyone chimes in that they could get into a home etc...there are waiting lists sooo long it's sick. Same to get free or discounted drugs.

Pretty_Penny
08-18-2007, 02:11 PM
The stats I've seen elsewhere in this thread say that about 1/3rd of the homeless are mentally ill, and I've said they deserve some help. But let's say it's even more...let's say half...

WHat about that rest?

sure, plenty of homeless people are -not- mentally ill, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve help.

my mother and i would have been homeless when i was a kid if it weren't for my grandparents.

some people don't have family they can readily shack up with. what happens to those people when they fall on bad times? where do they go?

nowhere. they go to the streets.

and once you're on the street it gets harder and harder to get back on your feet.

in a dream world everyone would be able to "get a job" and "save up to get a place" but that's -very- difficult for a homeless person.. for reasons i already stated.

the only places i know of that will hire ANYONE are those "work today get paid today" labor places....

#1 you have to be physically capable of doing the work
#2 you have to find your way to the office in the morning
#3 (at least around here) they take huge fees out of the money you make. you're lucky if you walk with 25 bucks at the end of the day.
#4 availability of jobs is still limited

Pretty_Penny
08-18-2007, 02:16 PM
I think SOME of those that are homeless with a mental illness may fall into the abuser of drugs/drinking and refusing to take meds.

with scizophrenia a large part of the problem is refusal to take meds, BUT it usually occurs when the ill person has missed a dose.

IOW

lets say the person misses a dose (like we all do with things) on accident, or that the doses aren't strong enough anymore..

once that medication starts wearing off it's VERY difficult to get them to start taking the pills again. why? because paranoia sets in. they think the pills will harm them or they think people are trying to control them, etc.

also, many people go through depression and feeling like a "zombie" when they're on anti psychotic drugs. that, combined with the paranoia, is usually the reason they "refuse" their drugs.

and shortly after that comes the "wandering" and the "getting lost".

Mr Hyde
08-18-2007, 02:18 PM
So you all are telling me that the guys I see sleeping in tents in St Petersburg, forming together and speaking with newspapers, and the ones I see sleeping under freeway overpasses, etc etc...that's an infintessimally small percentage of the homeless?

Uh uh. I don't buy it.

I've said the truly mentally ill and truly homeless deserve help.

The bums...sorry. I'll save my charity for those who truly need it...kids with inoperable diseases, animal shelters, etc. I've volunteered at an animal shelter, and let me tell you, it was WORLDS better than when I helped build two houses for Habitat for Humanity.

britt244
08-18-2007, 02:57 PM
Yes, I know how hard it is for mentally ill to get by. It's even harder when you don't have the resources, such as medication and therapy. In fact, a lecture in psychiatric nursing was dedicated to community health and how the homeless are a very ignored, very needy group. I took care of a bunch of homeless people who kept checking into the mental hospitals because it was the only place where they could go.

Withdraw your claws, please, and please take the time to read into things rather than lash out on instinct. Not everyone is trying to offend.

i didnt lash out at all, actually. im just saying that a case worker etc isnt all that they need. the autistic child i babysit, as well as many of the kids ive worked with, when they are old enough, they could have a case worker, and therapy, and meds, and it still wouldnt be enough.

Jenny
08-18-2007, 03:53 PM
Again - it is so incredibly foolish and just... blind to say that it is just a merry hop, skip and jump to get off the street. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the term "working poor" - when such a person loses his or her job, that person has until the next rent check is due to find another one. If not, the debt piles up, he or she cannot afford to pay the back rent that has accrued while the landlord has been trying to evict, and they are successfully evicted and very seldom have the funds to find somewhere new. It has been pointed out that it is actually very difficult to get a job when you are homeless, and those employers who are willing to hire the homeless are few and far between; even if you do get a job, you will likely shortly lose it because you don't have a place to live (and on the kind of salary you would normally be offered, it would take at least weeks to find one), a regular place to shower and keep yourself clean and people don't like working with you. More likely, you find a place to squat, or a doorway to sleep, do what you can to make it through the day (which may include liquor - and no, the $6 spent on liquor would not pay for a room for the night) and live in the downward spiral. People do not want to be homeless. They are not homeless because they are lazy. Like I'm looking out my window right now and I see an older man who obviously sleeps on the street. Now, granted he is crazy and probably couldn't do any job; but if he could - is anyone trying to say that if a fully employed and housed person offered to trade places, he be all "No thanks, I like sleeping until noon"? Just - what a ridiculous projection.

Hyde - at least some of the guys you are talking about ARE mentally ill. Just because you can't pick out their symptoms as you drive by on the freeway doesn't mean that they are not.

Mr Hyde
08-18-2007, 04:00 PM
Jenny, Google "St Petersburg Tent City" and read all about how these people are squatting in defiance of the law. I have no sympathy.

Vivacious
08-18-2007, 04:10 PM
Grrrrrrrrrr, sorry, but some hopeless people who used "digging stuff out of the trash" in the back where I park my car as their cover stole a big bag of clothes out of my car. So I'm not happy with the homeless right now!!!

And the other thing I hate is when people beg when you're going through the drive through at night. That makes me so angry. It's scary.

I have given money to a woman whose car broke down and she was trying to push it to the gas station but didn't have any money, a newspaper guy who got sick trying to sell papers in the rain....there's something about a person who is fighting and going forward without asking for anything. Those are the people I will do anything to help.

Jenny
08-18-2007, 04:20 PM
Jenny, Google "St Petersburg Tent City" and read all about how these people are squatting in defiance of the law. I have no sympathy.
Okay - I'm tempted to think that what you mean is that you don't think they should be there in defiance of the law. Like how does the creation of a tent city (even an illegal tent city) bolster an argument that homeless people are homeless because they are lazy and don't want to work? And I don't see that believing that they should not be there necessarily means that you can't have sympathy for them for being homeless.

BTW - from what I gathered they weren't squatting. They were there by open invitation of the owner. The issue is the violation of by laws regarding camping. Which, if you're me, camping by laws are kind of minor and incidental compared to a homeless crisis. So I do have sympathy.

Buggs
08-21-2007, 06:45 PM
"Homeless" guy folds his wheelchair and drives off in a Mercedes.

Dottie Rebel
08-22-2007, 01:13 PM
^^I think we can pretty much ignore this, hopefully.

So, true or false--if I packed up a couple of backpacks of supplies for some homeless folks I could just wait until I saw one, hand them the bag, and that'd be ok? Like Dylan, I'm always afraid of hurting their feeling or offending them. Unlike some, I'm very well aware that they are people. Jesus, how could you not be?!

I was going to respond to this thread last night, but decided to sleep on it. I'm glad I did. There is no reason for us all to focus on the few members who seem to have no sense of empathy for others. I truly believe their lives must be sadder and lonelier than we can imagine for some of them to say the things they've said. I'm just happy so many of us seem to be so incredibly touched by this thread!

Is anyone else interested in packing a backpack for a homeless person? We could all do it together!

PaigeDWinter
08-22-2007, 01:31 PM
So, true or false--if I packed up a couple of backpacks of supplies for some homeless folks I could just wait until I saw one, hand them the bag, and that'd be ok? Like Dylan, I'm always afraid of hurting their feeling or offending them. Unlike some, I'm very well aware that they are people. Jesus, how could you not be?!



Just like folks with homes, you're gonna meet homeless folks all over the pride spectrum. Many are gonna just lurv you to bits for the stuff. Some might be embarrassed but thankful. Some might even feel foolish and butthurt. Honestly? The % of rude ones when offered charity items? Very low from my experience.

alani.girl
08-22-2007, 03:53 PM
I either give change or ignore. It depends.

carolina6
08-22-2007, 05:48 PM
I'm glad that this thread is prompting people to do something positive. I've always dealt with homeless people or those begging on the street as individual cases. Sometimes the desire to not be made a fool of (i.e. giving my money to someone who is indeed not in need of it) has gotten the better of me, and I've not given when I probably should have. I think Tart said that it would be worse to not give to someone who needs it than to give your money to a scammer. I agree with that, and that statement changed my attitude.

I've definitely had some people scare me and put me in a situation that made me uncomfortable, and I don't feel bad about getting away from them and not giving them anything. No one should be risking their safety, especially when you're a female going somewhere on your own. I will keep this thread in mind though from now on when I deal with people panhandling or soliciting donations.

I think the backpack idea is great, especially since I have a couple laying around that I'm not using.

kandie_kitten
09-13-2007, 09:42 PM
I'm sorry to ressurect this thread, but now that I work in the city, I have a lot more exposure to the homeless, and how they are treated.


There's this older lady, in her 40's, who is horrifyingly thin and dressed in rags, but she has a little pug with her, that has a brand new collar/leash, and is plump, sleek, and obviously well loved. I always try and bring her food, and it makes me so sad, because she always gives the majority to the dog. Today I had a little extra time, so I stopped at the local store, and got her food and some cash, and also bought a small bag of dog food (I would've gotten a bigger bag, but I was afarid she wouldn't be able to carry it easily). I don't think she even noticed the food or money, she started crying when she saw the dog food and was so grateful.

When I walked away, this businessman stopped me, and told me I shouldn't do that, because she'll probably mug me. It just made me so sad and angry to see how people treat others.

At the train station, there's this little old man. He asks each person, very politely, if they anything to spare. What breaks my heart the nost is not how many people tell him they don't have anything, but how many just ignore him and act like he doesn't exist. That has to be horrible, not even being acknowledged.

ITgirl
09-13-2007, 09:55 PM
If I were homeless I would certainly have a shitty life and I might want to soften the harshness of my reality with some drugs or alcohol, so I give money to homeless people and don't give a damn what they do with it. They do have to eat eventually, or else die. So I know some of it will go towards food. If they use it to get fucked up, then I hope that makes their crappy life a little better.

Jenny
09-13-2007, 10:07 PM
That has to be horrible, not even being acknowledged.Just on the other side - there are SO MANY homeless people and panhandlers in urban areas, that the "non-acknowledgment" is because they are just part of the landscape. I mean there are stretches here where you'd be "sorry, man; sorry, man; sorry, man" if you wanted to do that.


They do have to eat eventually, or else die. So I know some of it will go towards food.
Funny story - I was talking to a homeless guy (don't ask how I get into random conversations with strange homeless men) and he said that he regularly assured people that gave him money that he ate everyday - because if he didn't, there was no way he could drink as much as he did. It was funny, not sad - just in case you were wondering.

kandie_kitten
09-13-2007, 10:10 PM
I understand that it would be hard to respond to everyone, but this man was alone, talking to the people at the terminal waiting for the trains. Most didn't even look up from their newspaper, or just stared right through him.

confrontingmydemons
09-13-2007, 11:04 PM
I give what I can, wether it be money or food. That's just the way I am. Some may think I'm crazy for doing this, but I don't give a rat's ass.. It makes me happy to help when and where I can.

Ferret
09-14-2007, 08:04 AM
My policy is simply to never give money to a homeless person. I will however provide food. If someone is hungry enough to ask for for food then I'll provide food for them.

Even something as simple as providing food can have its problems. I have suddenly had several other people on hard times asking for food after observing a similar generosity toward one.

My brother has worked jobs at the lowest rank all his life. He suffered from being at war - the idea that some of us are expendible still pisses me off, he got in trouble with the law, got raped in prison, he nearly drowned a perpetrating prisoner in a jail commode, he had so much happen against him but he has never held his hand out for begging. He worked crap jobs all his life instead. His eyes are tired, his skin is cracked but there is beautiful light in him. He never cries but I cry for him. He lived in a little box of a place for endless years. He lived an imaginary existence in that little box. He didn't spend his money on much of anything. He saved and then one day ... he bought himself this little house...it's his little house now...I've just put a roof on it for him. May he live many happy years in his bigger box. *smiling*

Homeless people look hapless but they are not helpless. Don't ask me for money.

Taylorlila
09-14-2007, 08:58 AM
I was in Montreal the other weekend and there were alot, a lot of homeless people, more than I've seen in Boston or Portland, or anywhere I've been. It made me sad...but what made me more sad was when I tried to give some spare money and my bf would squeeze my hand and drag me so I couldn't! I was so pissed! He's giving me the whole "they make so much money blah blah" maybe some of them do, but thats my choice. Luckily his brother told him he was an asshole and gave them money.

I was telling my mom about it, and she was telling me stories about this homeless man and his dog that would sit outside an upscale bakery/deli, and that they'd always get their food, and something for him, I thought that was nice. She said my brother wouldn't give money, but he'd take them to mcdonalds or wherever with him and buy them lunch.

Jenny
09-14-2007, 09:36 AM
My policy is simply to never give money to a homeless person. I will however provide food. If someone is hungry enough to ask for for food then I'll provide food for them.

Even something as simple as providing food can have its problems. I have suddenly had several other people on hard times asking for food after observing a similar generosity toward one.

My brother has worked jobs at the lowest rank all his life. He suffered from being at war - the idea that some of us are expendible still pisses me off, he got in trouble with the law, got raped in prison, he nearly drowned a perpetrating prisoner in a jail commode, he had so much happen against him but he has never held his hand out for begging. He worked crap jobs all his life instead. His eyes are tired, his skin is cracked but there is beautiful light in him. He never cries but I cry for him. He lived in a little box of a place for endless years. He lived an imaginary existence in that little box. He didn't spend his money on much of anything. He saved and then one day ... he bought himself this little house...it's his little house now...I've just put a roof on it for him. May he live many happy years in his bigger box. *smiling*

Homeless people look hapless but they are not helpless. Don't ask me for money.
Okay, this is why so much bad blood gets injected into these conversations. If you don't want to give spare change - don't. If you don't want to give to charity - don't. And of course we all realize that no individual can support the homeless population of her city, any more than she can support every worthy charity. You don't need an excuse. You don't need to paint the refusal to give charity with some kind of ethical brush. If you don't have change, or your change is earmarked for other things, or you don't like the look of panhandlers - fine. I mean it - it's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Nobody is trying to force you to. But me, I personally resent it and get irritable when people feel the need to frame that in such a way as to make it sound like I'M doing something wrong, or encouraging bad social ethics, or being bamboozled or being stupid because I do. We are not judging you because you don't give away your spare change - we just don't want to be judged because we do. You don't need to be so defensive because some people have different charitable impulses than you do.

alani.girl
09-15-2007, 12:03 AM
On Wednesday a friend and I went downtown to grab a bite to eat. While we walked around trying to find a place with an open kitchen (it was late), I was approached twice by (homeless?) ''panhandlers.'' They were within three paces of each other. Both asked if they could, ''have a dollar.''

The first was a man who looked like he'd had a very hard life and had been on drugs at some point. I didn't break my stride as he approached and said, ''Naw, I don't have it. I wish I did. Damn. Can I get one?''

My friend and I hadn't gone three paces when a woman with bleach-blond hair who appeared to be in her 30's asked for a dollar from a stoop. She was sitting with a guy. Unlike the man who asked me for money, she appeared to be well kept and clean with not-toxshabby clothes. She looked like she was on a dope high though.

I think that I said no to the guy because he was more aggressive in his approach. He actually walked towards me (my friend was kind of lagging behind). If I had actually paused and given him a chance to get within close proximity of me and I had been alone, he would've had the opportunity to do anything.

I know that a good number of the homeless panhandlers do have mental and/or emotional imbalances.
The state mental hospital here kicks out a disproportionate # of minority patients before they have been rehabilitated. So, they are put right back where they were before or worse.

Plenty of these people I imagine are on the edge and are desperate. They may be at the point where they are ready to do just about ANYthing to survive. And my ''no'' may just be the last straw for some desperate soul. That said, I am cautious when it comes to people asking for money.

I said no to the lady with the because, well she looked good. What I mean is that she didn't look destitute. I commented to my friend that she could've spent the money she used on her hair to get her fix.

That's when my friend asked me if I had a thing against homeless people asking for money. I told him I didn't, and I don't but I guess I was a little salty that night too b/c they asked me for money amd not him. It was as if they were picking the easiest targets- like I was the most likely to give. Maybe I am a softy/sucker but I sure as hell don't like being reminded of it on the street.

Yesterday afternoon I saw a guy on the median strip of a major road in a monied part town (Towson, MD) just off the beltway. He had a sign and appeared to be neat and clean. He however, was a younger guy no older than 26 with a severe leg deformity. His knees seemed to be permanently bent at 120% angles or something. He couldn't straighten them and had a mean hobble thing going on. He was out there on the median strip all alone at this busy, but not pedestrian friendly, intersection and not one person stopped to give him money even at the red light! That made me mad (go figure) and it pained me to see him out there like that. I helped him out with a little cash and told him I hoped he made some money that day. He told me that he would, and that he would head in about 4 o'clock. He asked me what time it was and I told him. That was pretty much it. I don't know why seeing that guy affected me so much or why seeing all those well-to-do people ignore him (I mean, they couldn't give $1???) made me so angry. Maybe part of me identified with the fact that his hustle seemed futile. It seemed like he SHOULD have been making a lot of money, but he wasn't-sort of like stripping for me....

Um, so sometimes I do give and other times I don't. I guess it just depends on my mood/gut at the moment. But no, I don't ask questions or try to lecture when I do give $.

Sometimes seeing people without homes who panhandle reminds me how easy it is for any human to find himself without a dwelling to call home (with or without a drug addiction). It's scary. I can only imagine the courage it takes to humble oneself to ask another for help - money or otherwise.

Yeah, I guess I'm all over the place with my feelings on this one!

stripperMBA
09-15-2007, 02:23 PM
Homeless people look hapless but they are not helpless. Don't ask me for money.
I have to aggree here. I do not give money to panhandlers. Because many times they are more likely to go up to a woman in am intimidating way in order to get money. This past summer when I was in montreal. A panhandler was even hitting up my blind friend who had two young kids in tow. She has next to nothing since her move to montreal. Here in Dallas about 99% of panhandlers are males. But truthfully nationwide most of the homeless and impoverished are single mothers with children. I give to organizations that help the homeless single mothers and their children. Not to the overly agressive panhandlers in Dallas.