View Full Version : Are you security for her?
Jenny
08-22-2007, 04:50 PM
Like I said - I don't think a non-paying customer has anything to offer. You are trying to convince me that they do. Moreover, you really want to convince me that you have something to offer beyond either booze or the vague potential to sell a dance. I know more dancers than you do. I don't hear them talking about how much they like having you around to hang out with when it's slow. I know you really don't want to hear this. I'm sorry.
It has nothing to do with me being "shrewd"; much less does it have anything to do with me being obsessed about making money every minute of the day. I mean, for one thing, I am neither of those things (I don't work every minute of the day. I don't even work every day).
yoda57us
08-22-2007, 05:06 PM
I know more dancers than you do. I don't hear them talking about how much they like having you around to hang out with when it's slow. I know you really don't want to hear this. I'm sorry.
I'll go a step further. I know tons of dancers that I spend money on. I also know what they say about the guys who don't spend money on them or the other girls (and trust me, they ALL know who spends and who doesn't).
While it's true that buying drinks or food and even offering rides home may qualify you as not a total waste of time to a dancer it does not put you in the same category as someone who buys dances.
True friendship is something that goes on outside of the club, when a dancer is not working. At the risk of over-simplifying things, If you are in the club and not spending money you are just an obstacle in the way of the guys who are.
Casual Observer
08-22-2007, 05:23 PM
True friendship is something that goes on outside of the club, when a dancer is not working. At the risk of over-simplifying things, If you are in the club and not spending money you are just an obstacle in the way of the guys who are.
Amen.
Stop being an emotional fucko, dude.
evan_essence
08-22-2007, 05:46 PM
Wow. I see I haven't been missing much by not hanging around. If I wanted a thread to provide an example of what SCJ is all about, this would serve nicely.
-Ev
I agree Ev. CC threads like "Am I a BF or what?" are way more interesting.
FBR
xdamage
08-22-2007, 07:40 PM
Seems like this is just another "does she really like me" thread.
mr_punk
08-22-2007, 09:32 PM
There's a middle ground (grey area) there when a favorite of yours comes over and sits for 10-15 minutes for drinks. She knows you won't fondle her, play-cate(sp), make fun of her, look at her ugly, say anything stupid, have awkward moments, and whatever billion complaints dancers have to the people that give them their living. Instead, they know the "regular customer of theirs" will speak to them like their a real woman and not a toy, won't judge them, will treat them with respect, will buy them a drink, and will talk about their day or whatever is on their mind to make it better so that the rest of the night will be ok.ROTFLMAO...that's funny. of course, you'll never know why it's funny, but trust me. it's hilarious.
Seems like this is just another "does she really like me" thread.not quite, IMO. it's more like cruelly telling a PL there is no Stripper Claus. of course, they have a hard time believing it because exceptions are like assholes. everybody has one.
slims099
08-23-2007, 05:04 AM
much less does it have anything to do with me being obsessed about making money every minute of the day. I mean, for one thing, I am neither of those things (I don't work every minute of the day. I don't even work every day).
You don't work every minute of the day??!! Alert the press. "Stripper decides not to work every minute of the day and also takes everything everyone else says too literally"
You know what I mean. You seem like you're a shrewd business woman, when you're knocking certain dancers for chilling for 15 minutes. Nevermind.
slims099
08-23-2007, 05:05 AM
ROTFLMAO...that's funny. of course, you'll never know why it's funny, but trust me. it's hilarious.
not quite, IMO. it's more like cruelly telling a PL there is no Stripper Claus. of course, they have a hard time believing it because exceptions are like assholes. everybody has one.
Come on, you know it's true. There's easy customers and asshole customers. That's all I'm saying.
bem401
08-23-2007, 05:42 AM
Actually I think that order is kind of interesting. That the industry professionals are bracketed. I don't think you are taking our word for anything. I think you are taking punk and Yoda's word. I think it is interesting that point blank say Kat is lying or mistaken (because what would she know about this industry) and then take Punk at his word.
Of course their word carries more credibility regarding this particular point. When someone from the blue side admits to admit a certain behavior among his peers, it carries more weight than comments from pink. Similarly, your comments on dancer mentality would carry more weight than anything a person in blue said.
And I never said Kat was lying or mistaken. I said I disagreed with her POV. I don't understand why I'd want to have a girl waste her time talking to me or why I'd waste my time talking to her unless I intended to spend money on her.
mr_punk
08-23-2007, 06:24 AM
Come on, you know it's true. There's easy customers and asshole customers. That's all I'm saying.LOL..you still don't get it. but hey, i understand. i know many customers need it seem more than what it really is in order to,metaphorically speaking, put the lead in their pencil. otherwise, their dingles would start dangling.
Jenny
08-23-2007, 06:44 AM
Of course their word carries more credibility regarding this particular point. When someone from the blue side admits to admit a certain behavior among his peers, it carries more weight than comments from pink. Similarly, your comments on dancer mentality would carry more weight than anything a person in blue said.
Well. Technically. Neither Punk nor Yoda "admitted" to such behaviour. Neither of them engage in it themselves. They simply asserted - the same as Kat did - that other guys do it. In fact, they both said, more or less "No, Kat is right" at which point your attitude changed to "punk and yoda may be right about these time wasting customers." So it really has nothing to do with first party corroboration, does it? And seeing as it has nothing to do with either first party corroboration or personal preference, it would seem, to a casual observer, that Kat should have more credibility. You know. Actually being in the industry for a long period of time, in a variety of clubs in a variety of states and countries, and having dealt with tens of thousands of customers - it seems that she might know SOMETHING about it. But like I said - emerging pattern of behaviour (although, I noticed you left that part out) and - if I may say - hardly one that is unusual among strip club patrons.
And it hardly surprises me that you find your "peers" (and I scare-quote that out of respect to these so-called peers) have more credibility than Kat or me. That was kind of my point.
And I never said Kat was lying or mistaken. I said I disagreed with her POV. I don't understand why I'd want to have a girl waste her time talking to me or why I'd waste my time talking to her unless I intended to spend money on her.
Well we're at these technical issues - this is not a "POV". Kat asserted a fact. You may think she is wrong or lying, but you can't call it a point of view. Like, it is either true or it's not - some custies deliberately waste your time, or they don't. This is not a question of "I like red better than black."
xdamage
08-23-2007, 06:47 AM
slim,
I guess I just don't see what difference it makes other then looking for a she really likes me ego stroke, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but at least be clear minded about it.
The thing is, it wouldn't make any sense for me to give any thought to does a dancer really like me. First, I'm a customer. Second, I'm quite a bit older then many dancers who tend to be younger. It doesn't even make any sense that they'd see me as a friend. There are plenty of guys, who are not customers, in their own peer group that they are bound to be more comfortable with, relate too better, and they'd find a better match age wise and interest wise. It's not that I don't get why us guys chase after younger women, or strippers, but realistically, if I was a young female stripper I wouldn't see me as friend. I really do understand why us guys want the ego strokes, but if that's what you want, it's probably best to not ask for confirmation, and just enjoy believing whatever makes you happy. Once we start asking others to confirm it's bound to happen that at least some others are going to tell us the truth. And yea, I know it could happen, you could run across a dancer who is the exception, and really really likes you, but the odds are against it.
Jenny
08-23-2007, 06:51 AM
You don't work every minute of the day??!! Alert the press. "Stripper decides not to work every minute of the day and also takes everything everyone else says too literally"
My point was that it has nothing to do with avarice in my character. Yes - I did pick up on your subtle implications.
You know what I mean. You seem like you're a shrewd business woman, when you're knocking certain dancers for chilling for 15 minutes. Nevermind.
Baby. You misunderstand. Really there is no need to fight. I'm not knocking them for chilling for 15 minutes (I have personally slept through the final hour at my club when I was on schedule three weeks ago). I'm saying that they, in fact, are not chilling with you. They are still working - just poorly and in exchange for liquor and vague hope than hard cash.
yoda57us
08-23-2007, 10:44 AM
This is the best thread ever!!!!
Katrine
08-23-2007, 11:14 AM
And I never said Kat was lying or mistaken. I said I disagreed with her POV. I don't understand why I'd want to have a girl waste her time talking to me or why I'd waste my time talking to her unless I intended to spend money on her.
Then what about all of these dancers that invite you to the club to drink for an hour? You ARE talking to them, right? And no dancer, except for idiots, count drinks as money. Unless they are making money off a drink hustle. You are the epitome of the guy that wastes the dancer's time. And you actually think you are friends with these girls? They must not be very bright. What dancer would regularly spend an hour at the club sitting around with one non-spender, in exchange for drinks? Girls that have to be drunk to work? Alcoholics? I'm so confused....
Sure, I'd spend the 15 minutes chilling with a regular...who does spend at other times ...but its mostly because they would be sitting at a good vantage point for me to stalk other prey.
We can just agree to disagree if you please, Bem. Our paths would never have been crossed in a real SC environment, except for when I'd join the dancers mocking you from afar.
yoda57us
08-23-2007, 11:27 AM
I've never had so much fun stuck on the GWB....
Docido
08-23-2007, 04:05 PM
In the club, there's no difference between socializing and selling. End of story. ;D
crizgolfer
08-23-2007, 08:41 PM
When I am in a club that I am recognized there are always have several dancers that stop by for a few minutes and chat me up. Many of these dancers have never made much off me. Perhaps I have given them a good stage tip at one time or another. Something along those lines, but I have never really spent that much on them.
The reason they stop by is more than likely for one of two reasons. Number one (the main reason) is that I am a decent spender and they know it. I may not have spent on them in the past, but they think that by being nice that one night I may drop the larger roll on them. This is not misguided as it is possible that one night I will. The second reason (the lesser one) is that I can carry a conversation and am nice unless someone gives me a reason to be an ass.
I do business everyday. I have to argue and negotiate all the time. I have to direct people so they get their tasks completed in an efficient and proper manner. I prefer to do business with people that I enjoy the company of at some level, but in the end it is still business. Not personal.
When I am in a club that I am recognized there are always have several dancers that stop by for a few minutes and chat me up. Many of these dancers have never made much off me. Perhaps I have given them a good stage tip at one time or another. Something along those lines, but I have never really spent that much on them.
The reason they stop by is more than likely for one of two reasons. Number one (the main reason) is that I am a decent spender and they know it. I may not have spent on them in the past, but they think that by being nice that one night I may drop the larger roll on them. This is not misguided as it is possible that one night I will. The second reason (the lesser one) is that I can carry a conversation and am nice unless someone gives me a reason to be an ass.
I do business everyday. I have to argue and negotiate all the time. I have to direct people so they get their task completed in an efficient and proper manner. I prefer to do business with people that I enjoy the company of at some level, but in the end it is still business. Not personal.
I agree criz. Back in my flockette days they were all jostling for the payout. I mean, I was obviously promoting the competition and paid accordingly. But I really don't see why it's so hard for some to believe that a dancer might just stop by for a minute. Kind of like well it's dead or I'm waiting for my money dude to show and he gets pissed if I'm in LD with someone when he gets here. It's defacto free time and attention for the customer I suppose but if he's not soliciting it I don't see how he's being a douche.
FBR
crizgolfer
08-23-2007, 09:59 PM
^^^^
I am NOT implying that the guy is being a douche. I did not mean it to come out that way. My only point really is that the SC is a place of fun (fantasy) whatever you want to call it. It is also a business environment. Too many times I see guys ruin it for themselves by taking it too seriously. Some of them end of being "Jeffs" and others just put themselves through discomfort that they do not need to.
I also agree that some dancers stop by and say "hi", because they like a guy at a certain level. That does not mean they are not acting with a business motive. I too have experienced the flockettes and at times I encouraged the competition. It was fun....for a while...;) ...but in the end it ruined the club for me. I really disliked saying "no" to some little cutie that was giving me that pouty look. I am such a sucker that way.
mr_punk
08-23-2007, 10:05 PM
slim, I guess I just don't see what difference it makes other then looking for a she really likes me ego stroke, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but at least be clear minded about it.what i find ironic is the amount of sheer embellishment on his part about these girls "real" motivations. i mean, he attaches these overly flattering qualities which transforms them from mere strippers looking to make a buck into these mystical, magical caricatures out of a fairy tale. it's akin to describing an experience with a coke whore as an erotic encounter with Queen Scheherazade...not that's there's anything wrong with that, but at the end of the day. she's only willing to be a plaything for the guy with a key of blow just as long as she can snort some lines.
xdamage
08-24-2007, 06:39 AM
It's defacto free time and attention for the customer I suppose but if he's not soliciting it I don't see how he's being a douche.
I wouldn't worry about it. They are adults, most work full or at least part time so eventually should have a handle on who is buying and who is not. They are capable of deciding for themselves if they want to stop by and have a drink, and capable of deciding if they are wasting their time, or not. If they repeatedly come back and choose to hang out for a few minutes, regardless of the underlying motive, that's their choice and we as customers are there to have a good time, not to stress over the individual plight of each and every dancer that the club has hired/contracted.
Jenny
08-24-2007, 07:13 AM
But I really don't see why it's so hard for some to believe that a dancer might just stop by for a minute. Kind of like well it's dead or I'm waiting for my money dude to show and he gets pissed if I'm in LD with someone when he gets here.
FBR - no offence, or anything - but obviously it is because I don't believe that they actually enjoy your company. It's not because I think you're, like, a bad person, or exceptionally boring - it's just because they are at work, and socializing while you are professionally socializing is inherently different than doing it for fun. Like, I may enjoy giving a lapdance to a particularly delightful customer - it doesn't mean that I want to do it for free (and if I do, well, I don't do it. I get his email like a normal person and meet him outside the club). Customers are not relaxing, and even if you enjoy them, they are still work. Like - if you offered to meet one of these girls for coffee, just to continue the delightful conversation you were having, does she say yes? (You can't offer to pay her. You can pay for the coffee.) If not - then she obviously doesn't enjoy your company that much. Maybe she is more interested in drinks and vague hope after all?
It's defacto free time and attention for the customer I suppose but if he's not soliciting it I don't see how he's being a douche.Well, I could tell you why I think it's douchey; but I suspect you really just more want it to be removed from the "douche" category of behaviour.
The Snark
08-24-2007, 12:42 PM
This is the best thread ever!!!!
If your idea of a good thread is a dialogue of the deaf, then yeah, I suppose it is.
yoda57us
08-24-2007, 12:58 PM
If your idea of a good thread is a dialogue of the deaf, then yeah, I suppose it is.
Excellent! When you don't have anything to ad just take an unwarranted shot at another poster! See what I mean. Everyone can play!
Like I said, the best thread ever!
The Snark
08-24-2007, 02:58 PM
Not a shot at you, Yoda; just an exasperated sigh at the utterly predictable responses on this thread.
Never mind. Proceed.
crizgolfer
08-24-2007, 03:19 PM
This thread really needs to end with some truth...and the truth is so obvious. Anyone can see it! All strippers want to have my babies. Aaah yes...marauding packs of little crizgolfers rampaging across the earth...*sniffle*...it brings a tear to my eye...
yoda57us
08-24-2007, 03:36 PM
This thread really needs to end with some truth...and the truth is so obvious. Anyone can see it! All strippers want to have my babies. Aaah yes...marauding packs of little crizgolfers rampaging across the earth...*sniffle*...it brings a tear to my eye...
Finally...the truth....
FBR - no offence, or anything - but obviously it is because I don't believe that they actually enjoy your company. It's not because I think you're, like, a bad person, or exceptionally boring - it's just because they are at work, and socializing while you are professionally socializing is inherently different than doing it for fun. Like, I may enjoy giving a lapdance to a particularly delightful customer - it doesn't mean that I want to do it for free (and if I do, well, I don't do it. I get his email like a normal person and meet him outside the club). Customers are not relaxing, and even if you enjoy them, they are still work. Like - if you offered to meet one of these girls for coffee, just to continue the delightful conversation you were having, does she say yes? (You can't offer to pay her. You can pay for the coffee.) If not - then she obviously doesn't enjoy your company that much. Maybe she is more interested in drinks and vague hope after all?
The coffee experiment is an excellent idea. But since Miss D is always a part of those table side chats and would likely want to come along for the coffee and conversation, might that skew the results? The dancers I could potentially invite are all pretty friendly with her.
Well, I could tell you why I think it's douchey; but I suspect you really just more want it to be removed from the "douche" category of behaviour.
Well, I would like it if at some point after sufficient debate you conceded that there might be a rare occasion when it wasn't douchebaggery. You know, just to show that you don't always have to win.
FBR
yoda57us
08-24-2007, 06:33 PM
Not a shot at you, Yoda; just an exasperated sigh at the utterly predictable responses on this thread.
Never mind. Proceed.
Well, OK, so I'm assuming you don't have anything non-predictable to ad then?
^^^^
I am NOT implying that the guy is being a douche. I did not mean it to come out that way. My only point really is that the SC is a place of fun (fantasy) whatever you want to call it. It is also a business environment. Too many times I see guys ruin it for themselves by taking it too seriously. Some of them end of being "Jeffs" and others just put themselves through discomfort that they do not need to.
Criz, my first two sentences were in response to your comment. The rest was general blathering on the subject matter and not directed towards you. I apologize for my lack of clarity.
I also agree that some dancers stop by and say "hi", because they like a guy at a certain level. That does not mean they are not acting with a business motive. I too have experienced the flockettes and at times I encouraged the competition. It was fun....for a while...;) ...but in the end it ruined the club for me. I really disliked saying "no" to some little cutie that was giving me that pouty look. I am such a sucker that way.
Indeed. Managing a table full of flockettes week after week can eventually become trying and more like work than fun even given the ego stroking we receive.
I'm still not convinced that every single dancer that stops by is trying to extract money from me. It is too broad a statement. It assumes that customer/dancer interaction is identical everywhere and under all circumstances.
FBR
xdamage
08-24-2007, 09:04 PM
I'm still not convinced that every single dancer that stops by is trying to extract money from me. It is too broad a statement. It assumes that customer/dancer interaction is identical everywhere and under all circumstances.
Probably true. When it comes to people there are bound to be exceptions and shades of grey. OTOH I wouldn't trust us guys to be the best judge of what is business vs what is friendly for the sake of it. We tend to see what we want to see when it comes to women ;)
Probably true. When it comes to people there are bound to be exceptions and shades of grey. OTOH I wouldn't trust us guys to be the best judge of what is business vs what is friendly for the sake of it. We tend to see what we want to see when it comes to women ;)
X, are you saying a woody clouds one's judgment? Perish the thought ;)
FBR
mr_punk
08-24-2007, 10:34 PM
I'm still not convinced that every single dancer that stops by is trying to extract money from me. It is too broad a statement. It assumes that customer/dancer interaction is identical everywhere and under all circumstances.ok. how about if she stops by and asks you to hold her stash because management is searching her locker? seriously, it's too broad of a statement? well, isn't a stripper's primary agenda extracting cash, the drug of her choice or something of equivalent value out of a customer? call me crazy, but i thought that was the whole point.
frankly, i think guys tend to overreact to the idea by jumping through hoops to fill the vacuum (ie: ah ha! look, here is an exception!) because there just has to be more to it than that. it's like they can't accept that, no matter how innocuous the circumstances, a stripper can seem friendly, fun, and really into him. Yet, at the same time, still want to get paid for it.
I wouldn't worry about it. They are adults, most work full or at least part time so eventually should have a handle on who is buying and who is not. They are capable of deciding for themselves if they want to stop by and have a drink, and capable of deciding if they are wasting their time, or not. If they repeatedly come back and choose to hang out for a few minutes, regardless of the underlying motive, that's their choice and we as customers are there to have a good time, not to stress over the individual plight of each and every dancer that the club has hired/contracted.i agree. customers shouldn't sit around the sc wringing their hands about it. what's next? should we start wiping their asses too? i don't do it, but not because i'm a thoughtful and considerate person who is sensitive to their needs (lol..yeah right). i don't want strippers hanging out around me for extended periods of time because they're cock blocking the other girls.
xdamage
08-25-2007, 08:17 AM
i agree. customers shouldn't sit around the sc wringing their hands about it.
I don't.
I honestly don't see any moral imperative reason why I should. I go to relax and have a good time. A dancer goes to make money. What she may not grasp is that I've already worked my ass off for my money. So while she is busy working, guess what, so have I. And my time and money is worth at least every bit as much as hers.
Frankly at $20 for 2-3 minutes of entertainment, when I translate that into how much time I had to work for the money, it's a simple thing... of course I'm going to try and maximize my benefits. Is that douchy? Nope. It's just narcassistic that she can only see things from her POV. But I'm not her daddy or mommy. I'm not there to tell her she is the most important person on the planet and suck up to her to keep the peace like mommy and daddy. I'm also not her PL who will tell her anything she wants to hear because she is hot and I'm hoping she will "really like me". Nor am I her BF who needs to suck up to get some tonight. Nor am I always a "nice guy" who believes we should always be nice, no matter how badly the other person behaves. Quite honestly it's douchy if she is too narcassistic to see that my money and time is worth at least as much as hers, and some would say more say in terms of social productivity, and given the charge, she is going to have to earn my entertainment money, which I earned through a lot of hard work and painful stress.
And I don't want to hear how I should be "thankful" she will do it. That's a crock of shit since I could get it for free. The SCs are just easy and convienent, nothing more. If I believed that then I could just as well say she should be thankful there are customers willing to pay her. And if she tells me customers are a dime a dozen, I'd say, yes and so are dancers, so I don't want to hear how special she is. At $20 for 2-3 minutes of entertainment, she is going to have to earn it from me.
Also my business is first and foremost with the club. They are the ones who own the facilities, who I paid to enter, who are paying for the insurance, and since I don't go and visit "regulars" or "ATFs", it's the club that's going to be there on my next visit, not the contractors.
To me it's retarded when guys get sucked up into the SS and think they are special. How many times have these girls told us the TRUTH (and thanks, the TRUTH rocks), we are nothing but a walking wallet and material to be laughed at in the backroom. I'm good with that, but OTOH eventually the message sinks in, and you really can't expect the enlightened customer not to see the mockery behind the faked smile.
Bottom line, the notion that a customer is a douche for offering a dancer a drink (an overpriced drink no less) when she chooses to sit, when she chooses to waste his time on a sales pitch, and yet still he is cordial enough to offer her drink (or stupid enough), is plain out a douchy narcissistic (aka "I can only see things from my POV") attitude, more so if after accepting the drink and wasting his money she goes off to mock the customer for being so stupid as to buy her an over priced drink.
Customers, grow a pair, and a spine to hang them from, please.
slims099
08-25-2007, 09:18 AM
Fuck you all, all strippers want me! They sit with me 'cause they think I'm attractive and want to fuck me!! duhhh...
This thread is the best ever. I'm going to start another one.... hold on....
aggieed
08-25-2007, 09:24 AM
Reading this thread I keep thinking about this one stripper that sat the entire night (about five hours or so) with a friend of mine. Her compensation for the night was $40 and a couple of drinks. She was trying a "new" (to her) club, but it was incredibly dead (a Monday night after all). She came into work but really didn't feel like working.
I have always thought that was just plain weird.
LapOfLuxury
08-25-2007, 09:36 AM
Like - if you offered to meet one of these girls for coffee, just to continue the delightful conversation you were having, does she say yes? (You can't offer to pay her. You can pay for the coffee.) If not - then she obviously doesn't enjoy your company that much.
That's not really fair. It's more complicated than that. There are a number of reasons the dancer may turn down the coffee invitation (even if she thinks the the actual meeting, itself, might be enjoyable). A quite common reason, for example, is that she would likely be worried the customer might be trying to use the meeting for coffee as a stepping stone to more elaborate and intimate activities.
xdamage
08-25-2007, 10:10 AM
She came into work but really didn't feel like working. ... I have always thought that was just plain weird.
What is weird about it? It's one of the perks. While some clubs have requirements, it looks like a lot don't demand much. Basically the girl pays her door fees, and from there on out, as long as she is not a complete ass or out right dishonest, she is free to work as hard (or not) as she chooses. Presumably she is motivated to make at least her door fees so that she breaks even, but it's a perk that management is not breathing down her neck demanding she make money every night or meet a set of goals like an employee, or a contractor who is contracted to complete a task by time T.
Hell, we are all feel lazy at times, but I clearly remember being younger and thinking how cool it would be to have a job with no boss, no demands, no stress (of course in my fantasy I was going to be paid for this). My own kids remind me, work is not something that necessarily comes naturally to everyone. Like exercise, you can build a tolerance for it and even develop habits and come to look forward to it, but for a lot of people work is "work" and they do it begrudgingly at best, and would love to have a job where they can not work for a night because they don't feel like it.
yoda57us
08-25-2007, 10:43 AM
That's not really fair. It's more complicated than that. There are a number of reasons the dancer may turn down the coffee invitation (even if she thinks the the actual meeting, itself, might be enjoyable). A quite common reason, for example, is that she would likely be worried the customer might be trying to use the meeting for coffee as a stepping stone to more elaborate and intimate activities.
Actually it couldn't be any simpler. The reason you just stated, among others, is exactly why a dancer who strikes up a convo in the club is probably NOT going to meet you for coffee after her shift.
I don't think anyone is trying to say that men and women can't be social with each other in the customer/dancer/club/working environment. At least I'm not. It is however much more common for customers to think about OTC than it is for dancers (unless they are involved in OTC paly for pay). Dancers are at the club to work, socializing is part of that. The socializing always has a means to an end. Just because she doesn't say "hmmm, guess I'm wasting my time here" out loud doesn't mean she isn't thinking it.
Nothing that I have observed over the years has led me to believe anything other than that every dancer has an angle. A couple of weeks ago I ran into a dancer that I used to see two or three times a week when visiting my retired ATF a few years back. She has never danced for me though she has spent plenty of time sitting and chatting with me while my regulars were on stage or otherwise occupied. I always assumed that she was comfortable with the "friend" vibe until I was leaving the club a few weeks ago. As I was leaving she gave me a hug and asked if I was going to buy that dance that she's been waiting six years for on my next visit...
Phil-W
08-25-2007, 11:24 AM
London cab fare home 4x a week: 100 quid
Tipping the driver extra to make sure he watches you enter your flat before he speeds away: 20 quid
Money saved by having Phil drive your cockney ass around: 400 quid/month. That's what, $850?
Sexy dress, night out in Chelsea, new guitar for boyfriend and vibrator for self: 400 pound
Knowing that Phil is funding all of your good times: Priceless!!
Hmm, having trouble with your maths Katrine.
3 dancers known for 5 years @ Katerines $850 per month per dancer = $153,000. That's out by an order of magnitude. (Ever considered a career in economics?)
And to be a cockney, you've got to be born within the sound of Bow Bells. In each case they miss by several hundred miles.
Still, not bad guess about the London cab fare.
One outa three aint bad.....
Phil. ;)
crizgolfer
08-25-2007, 11:27 AM
Nothing that I have observed over the years has led me to believe anything other than that every dancer has an angle.
Bingo! Couldn't agree more.
Since this is a version of the "does she really like me? Am I different?" thread I will add one more thing. This is to the dancers that state "if a stripper really liked the guy he would know it." Fact is, I probably wouldn't. I give little thought to what is said in the club (and directed at me) by any stripper. If she really thought I was hot and she told me that, well, I doubt I would believe it. I usually don't even respond to compliments from a dancer. I just let them pass by without acknowledgement.
Do iIbegrudge dancers putting these lines on me? Not generally (although there somes a point when it becomes a bit much and gets annoying), as that is her job. I respect the hustle to make a buck.
Phil-W
08-25-2007, 11:46 AM
Everyone seems to behave as if there's a rule book for SC'ing that prescribes one way and one way only for people to behave in that environment.
Yep, it's a very unusual environment, where we behave in ways we wouldn't behave in the *real* world, but in reality there is a wide range of behaviours.
At one end of the spectrum for example are the totally money orientated dancers. I know one that has deftly extracted £160,000 ($320,000) from a single guy over 3 years on a pay for play basis.
At the other end of the spectrum are what I call the 'casual' dancers who dance a few shifts a month to top up earnings. For one semi-retired dancer who's become a wage slave (her phrase) it's as much about keeping in touch with the girls she's worked with as making money.
You can get very different attitudes to the work environment, and what suits one dancer won't suit another.
Some dancers come in with targets as to how much money they intend to make, and can be pretty relentless in hustling to achieve it. Others are less money orientated (and dare I say it) more philosophical about what they do. They don't want to spend every moment of their time in pursuit of $$$'s while working.
The two types of dancers will have very different attitudes to sitting and chatting.
Phil.
Jenny
08-25-2007, 03:57 PM
That's not really fair. It's more complicated than that. There are a number of reasons the dancer may turn down the coffee invitation (even if she thinks the the actual meeting, itself, might be enjoyable). A quite common reason, for example, is that she would likely be worried the customer might be trying to use the meeting for coffee as a stepping stone to more elaborate and intimate activities.I would absolutely assume that. But still - intuitively - how many dancers do you think WOULD find such a meeting "quite enjoyable"? Many? Some? Few? Or would you feel comfortable saying that "dancers wouldn't want to meet me to be friends outside an environment in which they can get something out of me."
Again, this is not an indictment against any of you as people. It's not like "you're all so uninteresting". It's just a matter of the role that strippers and customers play in relation to each other in the club. We owe each other certain courtesies that we do not owe each other in other environments, and we have different expectations and reactions to each other. It's not a mystery. It's not to say that we don't have customers we enjoy. It is merely to say that we perceive customers as customers.
They don't want to spend every moment of their time in pursuit of $$$'s while working.
Phil - do you understand how stupid this sounds? It's like me saying about you "He doesn't want to get paid for every single hour he works." You may get stuck doing unpaid overtime sometimes. But you probably don't enjoy the prospect, and you probably think that whoever pays you SHOULD be paying for the hours you work.
xdamage
08-25-2007, 05:37 PM
Phil - do you understand how stupid this sounds? It's like me saying about you "He doesn't want to get paid for every single hour he works." You may get stuck doing unpaid overtime sometimes. But you probably don't enjoy the prospect, and you probably think that whoever pays you SHOULD be paying for the hours you work.
Not really. Dancers are not employees as you all keep telling us. If you want the benefits of being paid for every "hour" that you are at work, then become employees (and enjoy the consequences that you really MUST work every hour for your pay). But as private contractors, you've chosen such you won't be paid for every hour that you are there, only for every hour that you are making a sale. And he is correct that many dancers do end up just sitting around and drinking and not really working. If they think they should be paid for that it's because their immature fools that don't understand the basic notion that their time is not worth anything to anyone just because.
So now that that myth has been debunked. Let's debunk one more. Our business is with the club, not with the dancer. It's the club that owns the property. It's the club that collects the door fees. It's the club that pays for the insurance on the place, and the club that will bear the brunt of the cost and responsibility if a customer is hurt while on the premises. The club has menu of things that it charges for, entry fee, drinks, etc., and on that menu is lap dances. There is nothing on the menu about paying dancers for their time while they are sitting, or while they are talking, or while they are trying to make the next sale. Now if you are lucky enough to find customers willing to do that, that's great, but it's not OWED to you because your time is valuable. Nobody cares because OUR time is valuable. And frankly for many people in sales, they don't make squat while they are selling - they only bank if they sell. But regardless, we ALL worked our asses off, many of us without breaks, for our money, and frankly most of us just don't think talking with a girl, no matter how pretty, is worth much in terms of dollars. Be happy you can get it when you can, but value is in the eye of the beholder, and for many of us that's no value at all. You may get some extra $$s out of good will, but not because the club requires and it not because it's owed to you while you happen to be on the club's premises. Your deal with the club is between you and the club, not between you and the customer.
yoda57us
08-25-2007, 07:45 PM
Not really. Dancers are not employees as you all keep telling us. If you want the benefits of being paid for every "hour" that you are at work, then become employees (and enjoy the consequences that you really MUST work every hour for your pay). But as private contractors, you've chosen such you won't be paid for every hour that you are there, only for every hour that you are making a sale.
Um, hello, excuse me, Private Contractor talking here....
Trust me X, I get paid for EVERY hour that I work. In fact, the reason I became an independent contractor was because I was tired of getting treated unfairly as an hourly or salaried employee in my line of work. I don't see Jenny or anyone else implying anywhere that dancers are employees. What I do see is her and others saying that anyone who works for a living wants to get paid for every hour that they work. Obviously, as an independent contractor in the business of selling dances part of that hour is going to involve the sales pitch...are you following this? I hope so because it's pretty much what the argument against "homeland security" has been about for most of this thread. Of course not every sales pitch is going to result in a sale. That's when the dancer moves on. Again, this is what we have been talking about.
So now that that myth has been debunked. Let's debunk one more. Our business is with the club, not with the dancer.
Well, if you are buying dances or watching the stage show your business is with the dancer. If you are "just looking" that puts you squarely in the category that dancers don't care about so yeah, have fun watching the club manager shake his package in your face as he finishes his pole work...
Doing business with both works for me.
Katrine
08-25-2007, 10:35 PM
You all are pathetic, boring scumbags...except for yodachka....
xdamage
08-25-2007, 10:36 PM
Um, hello, excuse me, Private Contractor talking here....
Trust me X, I get paid for EVERY hour that I work.
Um, hello, I've hired several private contractors - most of us have. I'll tell you how it works since you seemed to have overlooked the important part that is relevant to the thread and my comments...
See none of them got paid during the period while they were busy drumming up new sales. In some cases they got nothing because their bid was too high, their sales pitch unconvincing, upon researching further I found they did not come highly recommended. Nobody compensates them for that time during which they are drumming up business. It's their own job to make enough to cover themselves during that time.
Haven't you ever hired a private contractor, or had one phone your home looking to make a sale? If so you would know this yoda. It's a plan duh that we all know. Basic stuff. Yes, they get paid for working. What they don't get paid for is sitting around shooting the shit. They don't get paid to imbibe alcohol. And they don't get paid while they are on their own time drumming up new business.
Now I'm being sarcastic but you show know this Yoda, and you should know that we all know this and so the fact that you over looked it must mean your trying to pull the wool over our eyes - which works with the dancers if you want to suck up and side with them to make yourself look good, but it does not work with the rest of us who know full well that most private contractors don't get paid for the time they have to spend to drum up new business. We also don't expect them to come visit us over and over and over after we've already told them no, expect us to buy them alcohol, and then have them go in the back with the other contractors and whine about what douches we are. That's just downright un-professional, and it's definitely not "work" - just bad sales.
Yes, I followed it very well.. and as usual I followed that your sucking up.
So within the contract of the thread, I stand by what I wrote. When they are busy drumming up business, or putting their feet up, or getting smashed, or gossiping at the bar, or various other things that are not working, they are not working just because they happen to be on the club premises. And while I'm sure they can find some suck ups and PLs who will pay them just for being there, the point was more power to them if they can get so lucky, but it's not owed to them... just being there is not "work."
To be quite honest I think you did get my point, but were so intent on twisting it so that you could suck up that you basically just re-iterated the facts I wrote, really said nothing of value, but said it in a way that would make yourself look good. It's cool that you can find dumb girls to fall for this, but sad that you feel you need to, and sadder still that they do. Oh well.
Well, if you are buying dances or watching the stage show your business is with the dancer.
It's not so cut and dry. The dancer does not have free reign while she is in the club. She is a contracted out with the owner of the club. She has obligations to them, and represents them while she is working under that contract. And I guess you haven't noticed but clubs do hire and FIRE these private contractors. And it's the club that sets the prices for LDs, and VIP time.
It's really no different then if I go visit IBM, and I speak with a contractor working for IBM. IBM can fire them if they don't measure up to IBM's expectations, and the contract between the two of them. Just because I speak with the contractor, doesn't mean that my business is with the contractor. Ultimately my business is with IBM, and their business is with the contractor.
The reason this is not obvious and clear is that in most clubs you give the money to the dancer so it may seem your doing business with her, but it's an illusion. In other clubs the money goes to the club, and they do the handing outs of the contractors share. The other reason it's not so clear is that most contractors receive $X for a certain job (e.g., $20 for a 3 minute dance), but since dancers are also allowed to collect tips, and since so much of their income is tipped based, that business is between you and them. Also if you engage in activities which are not on the menu, or illegal, then of course the club would argue thats not the deal, and that's between you and her.
xdamage
08-25-2007, 10:53 PM
You all are pathetic, boring scumbags...except for yodachka....
What is boring and predictably pathetic is the whiny me-me-me, pay-me, I'm owed, if I don't get what I want you're a douche, etc., attitude. Yoda feeds into it because you girls like to have guys tell you what you want to hear, and you all don't have the ability to cope with men who don't always tell you what you want to hear. But anyway, you gave yoda his stroke for sucking up, so he'll keep on doing it, and as long as there are PLs who are going to suck up, there is no real need to have to cope with guys who tell the truth and feel no need to suck up. You can always write them off as scumbags... and let me tell you, people that do that are incredibly boring and predictable.
Still, it will be interesting to see who here goes into PL mode because they are so afraid they might say something that offends a hot woman that they leave their nuts and spine behind... I'm waiting...