View Full Version : Ebonics: Your Thoughts?
Optimist
08-19-2007, 10:32 AM
http://i14.tinypic.com/4q7i6up.jpg
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I LOVE that! I knew the world was ending when Cheez Whiz came out and people started adding those damn Zs to everything.
All Good Things
08-19-2007, 11:02 AM
So, in this sense, Standard Vernacular English is a dialect, just as AAVE is a dialect. (Given this fact, Cameron is probably correct in describing speakers fluent in both vernaculars as "bidialectical.")
Not exactly. If that were the case, there would be no "bilinguals," only "bidialecticals." Here is why this is not true.
In one sense, linguists say that "we all speak a dialect" to emphasize that even within an established language, there are a huge number of subtle dialects. However, in practice, there are a substantive number of evolved dialects that have moved away from the core language and assumed a complexity of their own. This is what AAVE is. A person who is bilingual speaks SAE or SVE and a substantively different dialect of it; a person who is bidialectical speaks two different dialects of one or more languages.
In Chinese, the word "dialect" has an entirely different meaning. It's the only language where the word "dialect" is used to describe languages that are totally mutually unintelligible in the spoken form. In written form, however, there is great uniformity, as all written Chinese is in either Simplified and Traditional and speakers of all dialects can read them.
Nicolina
08-19-2007, 11:22 AM
Not exactly. If that were the case, there would be no "bilinguals," only "bidialecticals." Here is why this is not true.
In one sense, linguists say that "we all speak a dialect" to emphasize that even within an established language, there are a huge number of subtle dialects. However, in practice, there are a substantive number of evolved dialects that have moved away from the core language and assumed a complexity of their own. This is what AAVE is. A person who is bilingual speaks SAE or SVE and a substantively different dialect of it; a person who is bidialectical speaks two different dialects of one or more languages.
Yeah. I understood that (I think. I dunno. It was four in the morning and I was drunk). I was just trying to point out how the meaning of language vs. dialect can shift depending on context. I guess I didn't do a very good job.
All Good Things
08-19-2007, 11:30 AM
^ It's a very slippery slope, baby. And I think you did a great job.
Nicolina
08-19-2007, 01:36 PM
Not exactly. If that were the case, there would be no "bilinguals," only "bidialecticals." Here is why this is not true.
In one sense, linguists say that "we all speak a dialect" to emphasize that even within an established language, there are a huge number of subtle dialects. However, in practice, there are a substantive number of evolved dialects that have moved away from the core language and assumed a complexity of their own. This is what AAVE is. A person who is bilingual speaks SAE or SVE and a substantively different dialect of it; a person who is bidialectical speaks two different dialects of one or more languages.
You know, now that I've re-read this more carefully, I think I didn't understand the precise definition of "bidialectical" vs. "bilingual." Thanks for explaining. :)
In Chinese, the word "dialect" has an entirely different meaning. It's the only language where the word "dialect" is used to describe languages that are totally mutually unintelligible in the spoken form. In written form, however, there is great uniformity, as all written Chinese is in either Simplified and Traditional and speakers of all dialects can read them.
See, I didn't know that, either. You so smart, baby. :-*
BrunetteGoddess
08-19-2007, 01:58 PM
Wow, this is the most active I've seen Nic OR TOO in a long time. Yay!
hardkandee
08-19-2007, 02:10 PM
Language, dialect, ehtnolect, whatever. It's abused as an excuse for poor communication skills by too many.
Other day at work:
(After not giving guy I work with a cookie.)
Him: I see how you is.
Me: What?
Him: You's bein' a bitch wit dem [cookies], shorty.
Me: You just called me a bitch? Right, dude. (Starts to walk away.)
Him: *laughs* Naw, shorty, I fluent in ebonics... (yadda yadda yadda)
I'm sorry, but no language/dialect is an excuse for being downright rude to someone else.
FrustratedBunny
08-19-2007, 02:53 PM
It's not a language. It's slang..or at most a regional dialect.
Honestly..I hate it. It sounds low class and uneducated. And when you consider that, like said above, most of the kids speaking this arent actually from the ghetto or that particular region..they are just posers copying what they see on MTV....it's just retarded.
I mean..people STRIVE to become and sound educated to distance themselves from that life so they can have a better life for themselves...and these kids are TRYING to sound lowbrow? I just want to smack them.
yep. I agree.
FrustratedBunny
08-19-2007, 02:57 PM
t/jack:
TOO, do you get to put 'lexicographer' on your customs form for occupation? Do they go, 'wha...?'
My brother put "bum" as his occupation one year on his income tax return. I always wondered what they thought of it.
miabella
08-19-2007, 04:07 PM
Language, dialect, ehtnolect, whatever. It's abused as an excuse for poor communication skills by too many.
Other day at work:
(After not giving guy I work with a cookie.)
Him: I see how you is.
Me: What?
Him: You's bein' a bitch wit dem [cookies], shorty.
Me: You just called me a bitch? Right, dude. (Starts to walk away.)
Him: *laughs* Naw, shorty, I fluent in ebonics... (yadda yadda yadda)
I'm sorry, but no language/dialect is an excuse for being downright rude to someone else.
he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.
you were actually the rude one in this example.
dialects aren't 'lazy' or 'trashy' unless you are applying the rules of one dialect to another ignorantly. if you are ignorantly mapping rulesets from one dialect onto another, then of course the improperly mapped dialect will sound 'wrong'. which is pretty much what is happening throughout this thread.
also, actual slang is being collapsed as representing AAVE or ebonics (a term attached to both AAVE and slang by some california educators, but mostly meant to refer to AAVE), which further muddies things.
the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.
and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.
don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
Nicolina
08-19-2007, 04:17 PM
he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.
You know, I was sort of thinking the same thing. The problem was not that he was speaking AAVE, but that he was speaking AAVE to someone who was not fluent in the dialect. Misunderstanding is sure to ensue.
dialects aren't 'lazy' or 'trashy' unless you are applying the rules of one dialect to another ignorantly. if you are ignorantly mapping rulesets from one dialect onto another, then of course the improperly mapped dialect will sound 'wrong'. which is pretty much what is happening throughout this thread.
also, actual slang is being collapsed as representing AAVE or ebonics (a term attached to both AAVE and slang by some california educators, but mostly meant to refer to AAVE), which further muddies things.
the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.
and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.
don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
Thank you. Nice post.
cameron_keys
08-19-2007, 04:23 PM
the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.
and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.
don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
See..the problem with this is that the majority of people who speak this way DO speak proper English. They KNOW that they may be misunderstood outside their group..thats half the point. They CHOOSE to speak this way specifically to appear ghetto and thug.THERES the stigma.
White or black...thug life is considered cool. And thugs are not educated and proper..they are trashy and preferably have criminal backgrounds. And I have little to no patience for people STRIVING to be a criminal element.
Nicolina
08-19-2007, 04:34 PM
...y'all brainiacs should start posting your arguments/discussions in ebonics. Just for fun that is. :D
Y'know, I would if I could. But I am not fluent in the dialect. If I tried, I would sound like an idiot. I would make mistakes that would make it difficult for an AAVE speaker to glean my exact meaning.
This seems to support the notion that AAVE really is a language in its own right (i.e. a dialect that differs significantly from SAE, to the extent that the two are not always perfectly mutually intelligible).
Optimist
08-19-2007, 04:47 PM
See..the problem with this is that the majority of people who speak this way DO speak proper English. They KNOW that they may be misunderstood outside their group..thats half the point. They CHOOSE to speak this way specifically to appear ghetto and thug.THERES the stigma.
White or black...thug life is considered cool. And thugs are not educated and proper..they are trashy and preferably have criminal backgrounds. And I have little to no patience for people STRIVING to be a criminal element.
Thanks Cam!
Is everyone ignoring my post? Would you guys rather think you know what a Black dialect is even though you haven't heard much beyond rap lyrics? HELLO, is this mike on?!!
Corgan
08-19-2007, 04:57 PM
i'm not rascist (sp?) but when i hear ebonics... i run the other way.
why not say "what's up" instead of "what it do?"
if that's even what it means... lol
Nicolina
08-19-2007, 05:13 PM
Is everyone ignoring my post?
Nope, I really liked your post about the difference between hip-hop slang and everyday AAVE. I thought it was spot-on, and enlightening. :)
People do seem to be persistently confusing the two in this thread, though.
NOT THE SAME!
exotisch23
08-19-2007, 06:02 PM
Damn. I am just highly opinionated lately. I really should try to reign that in a bit....
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, why should you feel sorry or bad for yours?
Sirona
08-19-2007, 06:04 PM
he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.
you were actually the rude one in this example.
dialects aren't 'lazy' or 'trashy' unless you are applying the rules of one dialect to another ignorantly. if you are ignorantly mapping rulesets from one dialect onto another, then of course the improperly mapped dialect will sound 'wrong'. which is pretty much what is happening throughout this thread.
also, actual slang is being collapsed as representing AAVE or ebonics (a term attached to both AAVE and slang by some california educators, but mostly meant to refer to AAVE), which further muddies things.
the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.
and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.
don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
Ya uh if someone I don't know calls me a bitch in any context it's in bad taste and rude. Period.
hardkandee
08-19-2007, 06:11 PM
he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.
you were actually the rude one in this example.
I was the rude one?
What he said to me bugs me because (to me) it seems like he finds it ok to be on the boundaries of respect just because I'm younger (and maybe female - the guy has serious female issues). I'm his boss and he talks to me like that yet NEVER speaks to the male managers like that. It's always "yes sir" and so-called proper English around them. Which seems like he does not respect me in the same capacity he respects others.
I suppose this is a sensitive spot for me because of more than just the language thing.
miabella
08-19-2007, 06:13 PM
to sirona: if you read the conversation excerpt, he specifically was not calling the girl in question a bitch at all. that is clear even from context. she wilfully chose to claim something that wasn't true due to her own preconceived notions about the guy talking to her.
some people do hear what isn't there if it suits their prejudices.
G-Real
08-19-2007, 06:24 PM
before we keep attcking hardkandee's example, why don't we find out what the context was,..... ie, miabella said she was being stingy, but was she?
Its very easy to take that short abbreviated conversation out of context because we do not know what led up to it.
but, mia, to counter your example, while you state he was using proper aave vernacular, does that mean I have the right to call an african-american the N-word, as it is part of AAVE vernacular? If he is offended, should I tell him that he is offending me for getting upset at me for using that word. (Which I find henious for the record).
hardkandee
08-19-2007, 06:29 PM
I bake. People that work for me are always wanting "samples." He ate 7 (yes, I'm anal and count but I never charge them like I should and am happy that people like my treats). I was putting the rest out for sale, that's all. I don't think I was being stingy.
G-Real
08-19-2007, 06:32 PM
thanks hdk, I think it clear that while he didn't realize it he did insult you, even if he had 1 or 2, or none, doesn't mean you talk to anyone like that.
Sound liek to me that he speaks proper to everyone else, but, for some reason lacks respect for you.
hardkandee
08-19-2007, 06:34 PM
Sound liek to me that he speaks proper to everyone else, but, for some reason lacks respect for you.
Yeah, like I said before, I think it runs deeper than just some sort of language barrier. I'm younger than his kids and his superior.
But while we're talking about it, can someone please clarify shorty to me? Is it just like dude or something?
Katrine
08-19-2007, 06:37 PM
If hip-hop slang and AAVE differ, then why did our resident linguist use Kanye West lyrics to point out the efficiency of AAVE? Are the words in hip=hop rhyme really AAVE, or are they poetry/prose, which often morph's word for the sake of maintaining foot and meter?
Everyone really seems to have a strong opinion here.
LoveSexMoney
08-19-2007, 06:44 PM
can someone please clarify shorty to me? Is it just like dude or something?
I always interpreted it as a term of endearment towards a hot chick.
hardkandee
08-19-2007, 06:46 PM
I always interpreted it as a term of endearment towards a hot chick.
Lol, ok. I knew it had nothing to do with my height challenged-ness.
JustJayda
08-19-2007, 06:46 PM
Yeah, like I said before, I think it runs deeper than just some sort of language barrier. I'm younger than his kids and his superior.
But while we're talking about it, can someone please clarify shorty to me? Is it just like dude or something?
"Shorty" or "Shawty" is the same thing as "Baby" or "Ma/Mami". Used by a male, when speaking to a female.
"What's up Shorty, can I get your math?(phone number)"
I guess it comes from the fact that women are generally shorter than men.
I laugh when little dudes call me shorty:D
Nicolina
08-19-2007, 06:47 PM
If hip-hop slang and AAVE differ, then why did our resident linguist use Kanye West lyrics to point out the efficiency of AAVE? Are the words in hip=hop rhyme really AAVE, or are they poetry/prose, which often morph's word for the sake of maintaining foot and meter?
Good questions. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it's because the two are closely related. I mean, hip-hop lyrics often do employ AAVE, and hip-hop artists are often fluent speakers of AAVE...but so many people in the thread were referring to white kids who adopt hip-hop slang, trying to be "gangsta." Those kids are not speaking AAVE, they're just picking up a bunch of "non-standard usage" and tossing it around.
I think AAVE is a language/dialect, and hip-hop-speak is sort of a related subdialect? It seems to be changing a lot more rapidly than AAVE overall. (often true of youth culture language use, right?)
I don't know! Good point about the poetry in hip-hop, too...
Sirona
08-19-2007, 08:20 PM
to sirona: if you read the conversation excerpt, he specifically was not calling the girl in question a bitch at all. that is clear even from context. she wilfully chose to claim something that wasn't true due to her own preconceived notions about the guy talking to her.
some people do hear what isn't there if it suits their prejudices.
I read the conversation that was quoted thanks. You completely missed my point. I honestly don't feel like explaining myself either as you've already cried prejudice based on the fact that as someone who doesn't use ebonics and isn't particularly familiar with it I might not understand it and therefore take it wrong (as would any number of other people).
miabella
08-19-2007, 11:28 PM
you know, i almost want to post a 'racism card' macro right now. it would be so totally fitting for this entire thread and in fact any discussion on SW that might involve racial issues.
there is no 'racism card'-- it's just how white people react to the idea that their subconscious prejudices don't magically appear from nowhere.
but i digress. you should undress....
DJ Maimed
08-20-2007, 12:46 AM
he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.
you were actually the rude one in this example.
dialects aren't 'lazy' or 'trashy' unless you are applying the rules of one dialect to another ignorantly. if you are ignorantly mapping rulesets from one dialect onto another, then of course the improperly mapped dialect will sound 'wrong'. which is pretty much what is happening throughout this thread.
also, actual slang is being collapsed as representing AAVE or ebonics (a term attached to both AAVE and slang by some california educators, but mostly meant to refer to AAVE), which further muddies things.
the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.
and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.
don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
N.W.A. Lyrics
A Bitch Is A Bitch Lyrics
[Eazy E]
Oh shit. I guess there's one less bitch you gotta worry about.
[Narrator]
Let's describe a certain female. A female with the disease of character
and attitude. If you will a snob. However in a view of NWA...
[Ice Cube]
A bitch is a bitch (bitch)
So if I'm poor or rich (word up)
I talk in the exact same pitch
Now the title bitch don't apply to all women
But all women have a little bitch in 'em (yeah)
It's like a disease that's plagues their character
Takin' the women of America (yeah)
And it starts with a letter B
It makes a girl like that think she better than me (bitch)
See, some get mad and some just bury
But, yo, if the shoe fits wear it (wear it)
It makes 'em go deaf in the ear
That's why when you say 'hi' she won't say 'hi'
Are you the kind that think you're too damn fly?
Bitch eat shit 'n die (ha, ha)
Ice cube comin' at you at crazy pitch
(Why?) I think a bitch is a bitch
'Who the fuck you think you're callin' a bitch you little ? muthafucka?
I dunno who the fuck you think you're talkin' to. Let me tell you one
muthafuckin' thang, I'm not a...' [Eazy E] 'Bitch, shut the fuck up.'
Yo, you can tell a girl that's out for the money (How?)
She look good and the bitch won't phony
She ain't no dummy she's right the ...
Yo, bitch fuck when I'm driving
See a young nigga that's striving
You're thru' without a BMW
That's why a bitch is a bitch
I guess, or ether P-M-S
Here, test the girl that's kinda snobby (a'ight)
And I bet you dis a nigga is her hobby
And after she finished the test
Write today a B-I-T-C-H
And watch her get mad 'cause she know it's true (she know it)
But a nigga like me, I say 'fuck you'
Do like Ice Cube, slam her ass in a ditch (slam her ass)
'Cause a bitch is a bitch
'Why I gonna be a bitch?'
'I ain't call you no bitch. If you'd listen to a goddamn song it'd tell
you what a bitch is.'
'Fuck the song 'cause I'm not no muthafuckin' bitch.'
'I didn't say you was a bitch.'
'Fuck you, punk-ass nigga!'
'Fuck you, bitch!
'Fuck you! Who the fuck you think you are?
'Fuck you! Suck my dick, bitch!
I once knew a bitch who got a slack
'Cause she playing me like she was all that
A bitch can be your best friend talking behind your back (yeah)
About who's fucking who and who's getting fat
Look at yourself for me, (look bitch)
Now do you fall in this category?
Or you're the kind that won't bleak
'Cause you don't think, yo, shit stinks
Luckily I haven't had a drink
'Cause I'll down you ass
Than I'll clown your ass
'Cause the niggas I hang with ain't rich (I ain't rich)
We're all saying 'Fuck you bitch!' (Word up!)
Now, what I can do with a hoe like you
Been your ass over then I'm thru'
? that you see Ice Cube ain't takin' no shit
(Why?) 'Cause I think a bitch is a bitch
[Narrator]
There you have it. The description of a bitch. Now ask yourself,
are they talking about you? Are you that funky, dirty, money-hungry,
scandalous, stuck-up, hair piece contact wearing bitch? Yep, you
probably are.
Bitch!
Gee willakers.......that thars be some fine rhyme,meter and iambic pentameter.....yeah I totally see where it's all Hardkandees fault:O
you know, i almost want to post a 'racism card' macro right now. it would be so totally fitting for this entire thread and in fact any discussion on SW that might involve racial issues.
there is no 'racism card'-- it's just how white people react to the idea that their subconscious prejudices don't magically appear from nowhere.
but i digress. you should undress....
I'd just like to go on the record in stating I dislike you not because you aren't white, but because you suck.
Thanks.
Jenny
08-20-2007, 08:10 AM
^^^
I think that is uncalled for. I would actually further suggest that the reason you think she sucks is because she "plays the race card" and suggests that subconscious attitudes don't come out of no where, and that insofar as that, it does have something to do with the fact that she isn't white.
I would question, mia, though, whether the conversation as you "interpreted it" would really be that neutral. Like, I'm not fluent in AAVE, but I would suggest that using the word "bitch" even as an adjective is still intended to be a little more incendiary than "stingy" would be to (for example) me. Like, I find it hard to believe that it would be a friendly and courteous way of talking to someone.
BrunetteGoddess
08-20-2007, 08:11 AM
Oh Miabella, get over it. Jesus. Anyone who thinks this thread stemmed from racism obviously didn't understand the premise in which it came from. I started it because some thought it was ridiculous how BlackSheep was using it to sound like a wannabe gangster and how it was weird, and that topic was getting derailed so I started a new one so Kaylinn and others could take the offtopic issues with the use of BS's ebonics use. It was also half heartedly a joke.
I swear, I don't mean any disrespect when I say this, but some people are so quick to cry "Racism!" What the fuck people? You don't have any idea wtf you're talking about; you don't know me for one at all then. I for one grew up with best friends that were black, my UNCLE who's my favorite uncle and the coolest guy ever is black. So shove it.
BrunetteGoddess
08-20-2007, 08:16 AM
Oh, and by the way. I was raised in a multi-racial family and love them dearly so eff you all with your accusations. >:(
JustJayda
08-20-2007, 08:19 AM
Gee willakers.......that thars be some fine rhyme,meter and iambic pentameter.....yeah I totally see where it's all Hardkandees fault:O
By reading what you quoted of Miabella's post, I don't see where she was trying to assign "fault", but rather she was explaining that is was a misunderstanding due to Hardkandees "ignorance" of the fella's dialect.
People get soooo sensitive when the word "ignorance" gets thrown in the mix.
Ignorance does not always equal "fault".
LoveSexMoney
08-20-2007, 08:24 AM
Oh, and by the way. I was raised in a multi-racial family and love them dearly so eff you all with your accusations. >:(
And you would still love them dearly if they spoke differently than the "mainstream" and others viewed them as trashy and uneducated, right?
Circe
08-20-2007, 08:25 AM
It's important to keep in mind that if someone says you may be saying unintentionally racist things, they are not necessarily accusing YOU of being a racist. Lots of people unwittingly use subtle, inherently racist language or meanings (not the obvious things like the slurs, but subtler things that come from a more unconscious place), just like a lot of people may use inherently sexist or homophobic language without truly thinking about it. Your intentions may not be bad, but the fact remains that the statements you make continue to be racist.
Like, I don't think that many people saying that something is "gay" to mean stupid are stone cold homophobes...but they are certainly using homophobic language.
Also, saying that you have plenty of friends and family in ___ group, so you can't possibly be prejudiced against _______ is not the best defense. People are certainly capable of befriending those groups or belonging to those groups and harbouring racist sentiments, either consciously or unconsciously.
BrunetteGoddess
08-20-2007, 08:53 AM
And you would still love them dearly if they spoke differently than the "mainstream" and others viewed them as trashy and uneducated, right?
If you read BOTH this thread and Black Sheeps's thread, you will see that nowhere did "I" say it was trashy. Other girls had posted in his thread that THEY thought BS was purposefully trying to make him self sound "dumb", and asked why he would even do that. THAT is why I posted that as one of the topics in the OP of this thread. Not because "I" thought it makes them sound trashy. Notice I have not said anything to that effect in my own thread. I was trying to present views that I heard in other threads from other people for discussion.
Maybe if you have such a problem with it then you should go to BS's thread about being reported by motorists, read who said what, and question THEM. Whether their views were racist or not, I wanted to include tidbits of what I heard to include in this debate.
So maybe y'all should read everything before you start slinging mud at an OP who was only trying to be all inclusive and trying to take derailing topics out of other threads and let the derailers duke it out in their own threads. No where in the OP or this thread or the other did I say "I" thought this that or the other.>:(
BrunetteGoddess
08-20-2007, 08:56 AM
It's important to keep in mind that if someone says you may be saying unintentionally racist things, they are not necessarily accusing YOU of being a racist. Lots of people unwittingly use subtle, inherently racist language or meanings (not the obvious things like the slurs, but subtler things that come from a more unconscious place), just like a lot of people may use inherently sexist or homophobic language without truly thinking about it. Your intentions may not be bad, but the fact remains that the statements you make continue to be racist.
Like, I don't think that many people saying that something is "gay" to mean stupid are stone cold homophobes...but they are certainly using homophobic language.
Also, saying that you have plenty of friends and family in ___ group, so you can't possibly be prejudiced against _______ is not the best defense. People are certainly capable of befriending those groups or belonging to those groups and harbouring racist sentiments, either consciously or unconsciously.
They are not MY statements for fuck's sake. The statement's in this OP, which is the only thing I have referred to in my OP, were other's statements I pulled out of the original thread to make another thread for the others.
Fine. When a topic goes wildly off topic and no longer becomes useful, I will not try to help out by starting a thread for other people. I'll let people tear each other apart even when it's no longer useful. Fuck trying to be helpful anymore >:(
I'm out.
Jenny
08-20-2007, 09:01 AM
CF - I'm confused. Where is all this vitriol coming from? I haven't seen any accusations towards you or even references to you until you suddenly and inexplicably went off at post #136. Even then - people were pretty nice. Are you receiving nasty messages or something that is causing you to take this so personally?
LoveSexMoney
08-20-2007, 09:07 AM
If you read BOTH this thread and Black Sheeps's thread, you will see that nowhere did "I" say it was trashy. Other girls had posted in his thread that THEY thought BS was purposefully trying to make him self sound "dumb", and asked why he would even do that. THAT is why I posted that as one of the topics in the OP of this thread. Not because "I" thought it makes them sound trashy. Notice I have not said anything to that effect in my own thread. I was trying to present views that I heard in other threads from other people for discussion.
Maybe if you have such a problem with it then you should go to BS's thread about being reported by motorists, read who said what, and question THEM. Whether their views were racist or not, I wanted to include tidbits of what I heard to include in this debate.
So maybe y'all should read everything before you start slinging mud at an OP who was only trying to be all inclusive and trying to take derailing topics out of other threads and let the derailers duke it out in their own threads. No where in the OP or this thread or the other did I say "I" thought this that or the other.>:(
My bad for quoting you. I have not read the "other" thread. I don't intend to nor did I realize I was required to. It was so magnanimous of you to start this new thread on ebonics, CF. Really. ::)
Circe
08-20-2007, 09:15 AM
Er, I was speaking in general terms. Like a general, hypothetical "you" that applies to all of us when we speak and are not fully aware of what we are saying.
And regarding the friends/family defense thing, I was building on your earlier post, because I understand that that particular defense is common, but in my opinion a sort of irrelevant statement. It's the old cliche of "but I have a black/gay/jewish friend..." that I wanted to comment on.
They are not MY statements for fuck's sake. The statement's in this OP, which is the only thing I have referred to in my OP, were other's statements I pulled out of the original thread to make another thread for the others.
Fine. When a topic goes wildly off topic and no longer becomes useful, I will not try to help out by starting a thread for other people. I'll let people tear each other apart even when it's no longer useful. Fuck trying to be helpful anymore >:(
I'm out.
BlackSheEp3
08-20-2007, 10:01 AM
First off if me using Ebonics was "trying to sound dumb" or "wannabe gangster" then you guys seriously dont know Ebonics.....=P
Also I think Ebonics should be reserved for the people who can interpret it.
JustJayda
08-20-2007, 10:25 AM
First off if me using Ebonics was "trying to sound dumb" or "wannabe gangster" then you guys seriously dont know Ebonics.....=P
Also I think Ebonics should be reserved for the people who can interpret it.
You know what though, some people are always ready to diss (criticize) what they don't understand, especially when it pertains to "Black" culture, until they put their own spin on (a.k.a. whitewash it...YES I SAID IT!!!), or decide they can make money off of exploiting it.....just like rap music, our fashion, and our hairstyles.
Just look at the commercials on t.v. who really jumps phucking double-dutch and sings "I wanna be one less, one less, o-n-e-l-e-s-s"
LuckiCharm
08-20-2007, 10:28 AM
I just want to reply to whoever thought HardKandee was the rude one in her conversation...
Just because she got offended that someone called her a "bitch" does not mean she has some prejudice in the back of her mind. Blacksheep is right...if you speak ebonics save it for the people who will understand you. I'm around ebonics every day, but no one EVER directs the word "bitch" at me. HardKandee...you were NOT the rude one. He was the disrespectful one for saying that word to you and you had every right to get pissed.
JustJayda
08-20-2007, 10:33 AM
^^^^She(Miabella) was saying she(HK) was rude (or so the guy thought), in the sense that she was being stingy for not sharing her cookies.
I'm not endorsing the guy's comment to HK, btw, just clarifying.
britt244
08-20-2007, 10:37 AM
Maybe if you have such a problem with it then you should go to BS's thread about being reported by motorists, read who said what, and question THEM. Whether their views were racist or not, I wanted to include tidbits of what I heard to include in this debate.
So maybe y'all should read everything before you start slinging mud at an OP who was only trying to be all inclusive and trying to take derailing topics out of other threads and let the derailers duke it out in their own threads. No where in the OP or this thread or the other did I say "I" thought this that or the other.>:(
i have a few things to say to this. first of all, i really dont understand why you started a thread to let everyone else "duke it out" when you dont care to share your own opinions. that seems silly to me, and kind of like youre starting trouble. i wouldnt start a thread just for other people without adding my own opinion. so.. may i ask why you started a thread that you have no intentions of adding anything to, except for the fact that you started it?
secondly, i was one of the people commenting on his "wannabe gangsta" act, and that doesnt make me racist. it makes me dislike people who act that way. as i said.. white, black, asian, whatever. its how they act, not what race they are. i dont like black trash anymore than i like white trash. if thats being racist, than im racist i guess, but not againt any one race. against all of them. except it ISNT. i dislike people who act that way, like a wannabe, regardless of race.