View Full Version : Giving a Tip for a Dance?
Sophia_Starina
10-11-2007, 09:04 AM
For the Sake of Discussion:
Hmmmm... it's pretty odd that it feels customary to tip wait staff and yet (from the looks of this poll) dancers get jipped fairly often.
Unlike Gen, I see my dances as a product.
A product that I have spent countless hours improving with research & development (various classes, DVD's, and trips to the gym, etc.).
The product has a set price of $20 which to my knowledge hasn't increased even with inflation since the 90's. So I'm already starting off in a crappy position. If I offer great service (with a smile, longing looks, looooooots of contact, really precious little gestures, etc.) why shouldn't I get a tip?
Stoopid bartenders that open up a beer bottle get at least a dollar for their "trouble" why shouldn't dancers get a few extra bucks for a job well done?
GenWar
10-11-2007, 09:06 AM
I know where lapaholic is coming from, I think.
I do not view a tip on a lap dance as the same as a tip on a waitress. The waitress is paid less based on being tipped. To my mind, failing to tip a waitress is cutting into her earned pay, based on the system we (society) has established.
A Stripper is being paid a dance price that she chooses (If it is too cheap, she can work someplace that charges more.) She doesn't REALLY have an expectation of getting more and to ask for more doesn't give me positive feelings. In fact, tipping against my will or saying no (my two options) both make me uncomfortable. As I have said, being made to feel anything but great during a dance transaction is EXACTLY what I look to avoid, so I would not reward someone requesting a tip from me with future patronage.
Now, on occasion, when one is very happy with the service, I can see giving a tip. For example, I tip very well when I visit Hooters, because I appreciate the service I receive there. But that is by choice...not based on request.
Does that help?
-gen
Sophia_Starina
10-11-2007, 09:23 AM
Does that help?
-gen
I'm clear on your perspective.
However, I must counter.
The waitress gets paid something, no matter how paltry, to work her shift. Dancers must pay to work. HUUUUUGE difference.
Also, waitresses don't get nekked or offer warm, living, human contact.
So why is carrying a dish more worthy of a tip than a loving moment of my (or any dancer's) time?
P.S. I'm not arguing. Just Discussing.
Jenny
10-11-2007, 10:45 AM
Does that help?
Well I'm not sure who you're trying to help. If it's me... no, not so much. I'm not disagreeing substantively with anything you are saying (here. I strongly disagree with your contention earlier that simply paying for a dance is a "tip".) I agree that it isn't the same as a waitress. I wasn't drawing a comparison. I was explaining why one party wouldn't ask for a tip and another would. I just don't understand the accompanying irritation. This:
A Stripper is being paid a dance price that she chooses (If it is too cheap, she can work someplace that charges more.)
is just naive, Gen. I mean, it is just disconnected with the reality of the working world. No person anywhere has unlimited choices in terms of working locations. If all dancers could just "decide" to work somewhere she could charge more or tip less, she would. There are, unfortunately, always other factors. I'm not saying these factors are your problem; but predicating your irritation on the idea that "she can just work somewhere else" is a little flimsy.
She doesn't REALLY have an expectation of getting more and to ask for more doesn't give me positive feelings. In fact, tipping against my will or saying no (my two options) both make me uncomfortable. As I have said, being made to feel anything but great during a dance transaction is EXACTLY what I look to avoid, so I would not reward someone requesting a tip from me with future patronage.You can not patronize someone based on any criterion you want - arbitrary or otherwise. Obviously. However, I can't help but think that this sounds kind of like guys who say "girls I don't really like asking me for dances make me uncomfortable, and I don't like feeling uncomfortable in a strip club." I get that saying "no" is awkward and uncomfortable, but it is necessary and normal in a stripclub. You would feel absolutely fine telling the same girl, at the same time in the same situation "No" to (for example) "do you want to do one more?" or "would you like to move to the Champagne Room (or CR alternative)?" Or at least you would accept the discomfort as part of the cost of doing business. What I don't see is why you wouldn't just internalize the awkwardness of refusing a tip the same way - what is it about that particular request that is different from every other request that girls make of you?
If a girl asked me, I wouldn't say a flat out "no" either. I would either give her an extremely nominal tip or say "maybe next time?" But I wouldn't take away irritation about it, and if I enjoyed the dance and the girl I would have no issue about repeating business with her.
GenWar
10-11-2007, 12:08 PM
Ladies:
I am afeard that we shall have to agree to disagree. I think we just view things differently.
However, This:
What I don't see is why you wouldn't just internalize the awkwardness of refusing a tip the same way - what is it about that particular request that is different from every other request that girls make of you?
is the crux of the matter. If you put on your "Reading Comprehension" hat and go back and read all of Jenny's posts, this question is there, in one form or another, at every turn. This is the true confusion...what makes "Can I have a tip?" a different question than "Wanna dance?". I know that I can answer "No." clearly, concisely and without problem to the latter but the former sends me into hives.
Maybe it is practice. Maybe it is the clear, unignorable greed in the question in the request. Truth is, I don't know. I can't say. I know that, when I get the question, I go from 0 to annoyed instantly. It is an uncontrolled, undesired and unanticipated response, not at all dissimilar to the way I go from 0 to pissed off when someone uses the "N" word. Could I control it? Absolutely. But I guess I (selfishly, admittedly) feel like I shouldn't have to. I recognize that that is on me and it is stupid to expect a girl to not try and maximize her income with a little appreciation just so I can feel better. But, I don't think my choice to despise this request is any more or less arbitrary than my prohibition on wearing jeans to the club or my refusal to EVER ask for a dance. I will chock it up to the weirdness of Gen the customer and simply accept it and move on. Cop out? Absolutely...but what are my options? Short of diagnosing whatever psychological or psychiatric issue is causing the Pavlovian response of annoyance, that's all I can do.
-gen
Sophia_Starina
10-11-2007, 12:17 PM
I wanna clear up that my post is about Voluntary Tipping.
Let's not reduce this post to "I won't tip girls that ask... only those who don't."
I think dancers are really hard working. Our job is all about customer service and entertainment. Why are custies so shocked and appalled by the mere notion of tipping dancers like they tip other people in the service industry?
I just don't get it.
Svelt
10-11-2007, 01:20 PM
After reading this thread I have been thinking...
If I go to a restaurant I don't chose my waitstaff, I order, perhaps with suggestion, a meal and based on how I experience everything I will tip. That tip is spread out to the people who went into making my experience enjoyable. I don't choose these people, but based on my enjoyment I tip them.
In a SC I do choose who will serve me, and if I enjoy the service I will indulge again, in my mind tipping by ordering more of the service. (aka additional dances) In a restauraunt I wouldn't order another meal, so I tip on the earlier experience. In a SC I take additional service, thats the tip.
So I think that the reason I am shocked and appalled when I am asked for a tip, is because I just tipped you by asking for additional dances. You aren't respecting the tip I just gave you. And I don't frequent people who disrespect me.
Sophia_Starina
10-11-2007, 01:37 PM
So I think that the reason I am shocked and appalled when I am asked for a tip, is because I just tipped you by asking for additional dances. You aren't respecting the tip I just gave you. And I don't frequent people who disrespect me.
As I said before....
I wanna clear up that my post is about Voluntary Tipping.
Let's not reduce this post to "I won't tip girls that ask... only those who don't."
The Question that I had posed involved customers balking at the notion (a.k.a idea) of tipping dancers. Not being "appalled" by dancers asking for tips.
Jenny
10-11-2007, 01:45 PM
Gen - obviously I can't make you not be annoyed at certain girls for their behaviour, even if the annoyance is wholly arbitrary. Although - and honestly, I don't think there is a viable comparison or analogy to be drawn between a person using vile and offensive language and terminology that is generally agreed to be the most egregious of our society and a person who has just performed a good service politely asking for a tip. It's perfectly rational to get "annoyed" at one. I mean there was a guy over in CC once who said he hated it when dancers touched his head. Fine - he might really get mad and refuse to get dances from a girl who touched his head ever again - but it is still a pretty arbitrary reason to get all mad.
Svelt - this is the same as Genwar. Paying for a dance is not a tip. It's just not. I mentioned that is generally immaterial to me the way I get my money - like if I dance for 5 more minutes or you hand me the $20. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference. A tip is on top of the bill, not paying the bill. (like, in a restaurant, if you did just order more stuff rather than tipping... well that would be considered pretty anti-social. And if you left a note explaining that you expressed your appreciation for service by buying more instead of tipping the waitresses would be in a quandary on how to politely explain to you that no, it is not the same thing). So there is obviously no "disrespect" for a pre-existing tip because there is no pre-existing tip. A lot of guys seem to hate this - I'm kind of hammering it, not because I think you all ought to tip, just because I really, really want a reasonable articulation on why this sends all of you into such a spiral of resentment.
Although I never realize how many guys here thought that they were doing us a favour by actually paying after they get dances. Weird.
Bob_Loblaw
10-11-2007, 01:55 PM
I think dancers are really hard working. Why are custies so shocked and appalled by the mere notion of tipping dancers like they tip other people in the service industry?
It's due to the mere fact that it's not the societal norm. For example, I think we can all agree that there's a greater percentage of people who will tip a bartender for just twisting the top off a beer than those who will drop a few coins in the tip jar of someone actually making a specialty coffee at Starbucks. Why is this? Is it fair? Probably not when you think about it but it's what social norms have deemed acceptable.
Here's another example. Waitress comes to you, you order a drink, she brings it to you and you pay for the drink and give a tip. Drive your car to a full service gas station. Gas attendant comes you you, you tell him what type and how much gas you want, he fills your tank, you pay for the gas and don't give a tip. Again, if you really break down the service being offered to you, it's really the same thing.
There are also regional variations in tipping culture. Those who have visited (or worked at) clubs in different cities will notice this. Here in BC, stage tipping is not all that common even though gyno-row may be packed. Every time I've been to clubs in the US, there's an expectation of tips if you're at the tip rail (and even if you're not in some cases). In Alberta, the girls play loonie & toonie tip games (i.e., Canadian $1 & $2 coins) where guys try to toss coins at a target like a jug, rolled up poster or magnet in order to win prizes like at a fair.
It'll be a long time before tipping for private dances becomes a societal norm. I would guess the most effective way for it to happen is to shame a nontipper. Shame isn't really the word I'm looking for but it's close enough. Basically, it's a case of monkey see, monkey do. If there are 10 guys at a tip rail and the first 9 tip, the 10th guy is more inclined to tip also. This would need to be the case with private dances as well. The problem is that guys do not see what other guys do.
So what's a girl to do? Positive reinforcement is about all I can think of. I'm not talking about making dances hotter for a known tipper, just simply acting thankful for a tip (even if it's a nominal one). Most people find intrinsic value in making other people feel good. The feeling of being able to make another person happy is a very powerful feeling. Petting a dog after it brings you your slippers is going to reinforce that behavior and increase the likelihood it'll do it again.
Svelt
10-11-2007, 02:10 PM
A lot of guys seem to hate this - I'm kind of hammering it, not because I think you all ought to tip, just because I really, really want a reasonable articulation on why this sends all of you into such a spiral of resentment.
Jenny I appreciate your desire to understand. I'm not sure we understand, but I will try to also come at this from another perspective.
It ruins the fantasy, pulls us into reality. Its just about the money.
And that depending on how its presented, it can create the impression of entitlement.
Fantasy: all the attention, the ss, the contact, the skill of making us actually believe for a bit we are special, then to pull us out of our afterglow... tip me. Declaring to us it was false, was just all about the money, and ruining our afterglow.
Entitlement: And just as when a server in any other industry demands a tip, which is what you are doing when you ask for one, you are declaring you are entitled to one. This completely turns me off, and ruins the afterglow of what could have been a wonderful experience.
Prolly not what you were looking for, but I felt I should give it a shot.
Casual Observer
10-11-2007, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
Wait, is that what you tip voluntarily or is that what the dancers ask to be paid/tipped above the stated prices? 'Cause that's different.
I usually tip unless the dance sucked or hurt me physically in some way.
can you explain that one?
I know what SusanW means. I've had more than one hot chick hurt me by bouncing on package and/or trying to manipulate it with her knee. I hate that shit.
Also, waitresses don't get nekked or offer warm, living, human contact.
I would tip them more if they did.
:)
mr_punk
10-11-2007, 06:28 PM
I do agree with those posters who say asking for a tip is wholly inappropriate but I have never had that happen to me, but I did have a girl ask me once if I'd buy her a pair of jeans some vendor was selling as we exited the CR. I felt put on the spot, caved in and bought them, but never bought another dance from here.so, you just gave it to her for free!? it's no wonder these girls have a suspect work ethic when guys are giving away something for nothing.
Shit, I've been window shopping with friends, boyfriends, etc before, and have exclaimed "Oooh, I love txxx buy it for me!"okay, but it's not the same thing.
So why is carrying a dish more worthy of a tip than a loving moment of my (or any dancer's) time?again, it's not the same thing.
After reading this thread I have been thinking...If I go to a restaurant I don't chose my waitstaff, I order, perhaps with suggestion, a meal and based on how I experience everything I will tip.once again, it's not the same thing. my point is that while you can compare like items. it simply doesn't work with dissimilar items. for instance, take the maxim "the more money you spend. the better time you'll have" which one often hears in relation to sex work. now, while this maxim might be true for restaurants (ie: say, the quality of a fast food value meal versus a meal at a high end restaurant which costs $300 per person). it is certainly not true for sex work.
Maybe it is the clear, unignorable greed in the question in the request. Truth is, I don't know. I can't say. I know that, when I get the question, I go from 0 to annoyed instantly.
Fantasy: all the attention, the ss, the contact, the skill of making us actually believe for a bit we are special, then to pull us out of our afterglow... tip me. Declaring to us it was false, was just all about the money, and ruining our afterglow.
well, let that be a lesson to ya, BG.
jannisary
10-11-2007, 08:23 PM
The clubs I'm used to going to the dancers keep 100% of the dance price. If the dance costs $40 per song then that's what she gets. If the club was taking a percentage out of each dance then I might be more inclined to tip.
bem401
10-12-2007, 05:16 AM
The clubs I'm used to going to the dancers keep 100% of the dance price. If the dance costs $40 per song then that's what she gets. If the club was taking a percentage out of each dance then I might be more inclined to tip.
Whether the house takes a piece or not really doesn't matter. The girl is charging a price for her time, be it 3 minutes, 15 minutes, or an hour. She sets her price and establishes her terms, much like a plumber, electrician, carpenter, mechanic, lawyer or any other self-employed person would. I can't imagine anyone tipping them for their services. Similarly, I give math tutorials and golf lessons as second jobs. I set my price for whatever block of time that person wants to hire me for and that's it. I have never gotten nor expected any more than the agreed upon price except in those instances ( for friends ) where I was willing to do it for free and they insisted on giving me something for my efforts.
yoda57us
10-12-2007, 06:36 AM
Whether the house takes a piece or not really doesn't matter. The girl is charging a price for her time, be it 3 minutes, 15 minutes, or an hour. She sets her price and establishes her terms, much like a plumber, electrician, carpenter, mechanic, lawyer or any other self-employed person would. I can't imagine anyone tipping them for their services. Similarly, I give math tutorials and golf lessons as second jobs. I set my price for whatever block of time that person wants to hire me for and that's it. I have never gotten nor expected any more than the agreed upon price except in those instances ( for friends ) where I was willing to do it for free and they insisted on giving me something for my efforts.
Bem, help me, I'm confused. What does giving golf lessons or math tutorials have to do with a dancer having to give 5, 10, 30 dollars or whatever the cut to the house may be every time she sells a dance? Are you kicking a percentage back to Spaulding or Nike when you help a guy with his swing? I'm betting the answer is no.
Furthermore, though some girls freelance their prices, for the most part dancers do not set their price, the club does.
I can certainly understand why a dancer would think she deserves a tip. I think anyone who does a good job and works hard will think they are worth more than they are getting for said job. Asking for it is another story however. I never repeat with a dancer who asks for a tip.
Unfortunately dancers have to deal with the fact that they are making better money than most of the guys who spend money on them. I tip more now than I did in clubs 20 years ago but a big part of that is that I'm doing a lot better now than I did 20 years ago. For me at least that plays into it.
As far as a set policy on tipping I don't really have one. I have a fav in every club I visit and we seem to have settled into a scenario where I give her X amount of money and she dances for a while. We dance, we talk, we dance, we talk. When she thinks she's given me my money's worth she gets dressed and we talk some more. We both feel like we got our money's worth and I don't have to do mental exercises trying to count songs while my fav teases the living daylights out of me..
This is probably one of the reasons why I prefer early week day visits.
The Snark
10-12-2007, 06:48 AM
I think anyone who demands a tip--whether a waiter, a taxi driver, or a stripper--is necessarily being rude. The reason is that a tip is essentially a gift, and gifts--as anyone who has read Marcel Mauss could tell you--have a different logic than market exchanges.
One of the signal characteristics of gifts is that one does not haggle over them. If you receive a tie for Christmas, it's unseemly to say "I was hoping for something a little more expensive," and downright barbaric to demand more money to make up the difference.
I think this applies to strip clubs. A dance is clearly a market exchange, and the dancer is within her rights to demand payment for her service. But a tip is a gift, and to demand it violates a social taboo--which is why GenWar (and I) feel a little queasy when this happens.
Sophia_Starina
10-12-2007, 01:37 PM
I would tip them more if they did.
Perhaps we have a new & exciting restaurant concept that would take the world by storm.
Sophia_Starina
10-12-2007, 01:41 PM
Whether the house takes a piece or not really doesn't matter. The girl is charging a price for her time, be it 3 minutes, 15 minutes, or an hour. She sets her price and establishes her terms, much like a plumber, electrician, carpenter, mechanic, lawyer or any other self-employed person would. I can't imagine anyone tipping them for their services. Similarly, I give math tutorials and golf lessons as second jobs. I set my price for whatever block of time that person wants to hire me for and that's it. I have never gotten nor expected any more than the agreed upon price except in those instances ( for friends ) where I was willing to do it for free and they insisted on giving me something for my efforts.
Dancers pay to work... so the club takes some percentage of the dance cost no matter what. If my house fee is $100 and I make $300, the house takes a 33% cut of my earnings. This doesn't even include places that take a cut out of each dance on top of the set house fees.
And P.S. not many clubs offer the option for girls to set their own price. In a $20 dance club a dance costs $20... and if a girl is charging less or more she can get reprimanded.
Phil-W
10-12-2007, 03:38 PM
Speaking from over the other side of the Atlantic, how much of this is cultural?
On my visits to the US I've noticed that it's far more routine for people in every occupation to expect a tip.
In the UK it's more normal to tip when someone's made an effert to give above average service. For example a waitress in a restaraunt just doing her job probably wouldn't get much in the way of tips. An attentive waitresss full of smiles would.
Ditto for dancers in the UK - here I believe dancers being tipped is more the exception than the rule. (On the other hand dances tend to be $40 rather than $20, so a dancer is getting a better payment for each dance).
So - is tipping dancers culturally motivated in the US?
Phil.
Lapaholic
10-12-2007, 04:14 PM
Phil I would say the number of people expecting tips is growing. Today I had lunch at Five Guys Burgers and FRies. I walk to the counter, I place an order then wait and when called I get my order and then eat. I then throw my trash away. Like McDonalds but not as gross. But they have a tip jar. Now why am I tipping them. Im not trying to be cheap but really why?.. Again a waiter is not paid a full minimum wage here Phil - maybe in the UK they get a full wage. So its expected they are working for tips. Not the guys at Five guys. Same thing at starbucks. They will do the same job whether I tip them or not. It strange and personally I think Starbucks and 5 guys should just pay their employees a better wage and get rid of the tip jar.
Ok here is a scenario for the dancers. If I go to a masseuse and pay her 85 bucks for a massage, should I tip her afterwards. I would say no... ( Ok this is a legitmate massage people!!!! ) Lets cancel the word masseuse and say massage therapist. Oh hell I know what u all will say anyway ...
mr_punk
10-12-2007, 06:20 PM
I think this applies to strip clubs. A dance is clearly a market exchange, and the dancer is within her rights to demand payment for her service. But a tip is a gift, and to demand it violates a social taboo.what social taboo? i mean, it's a social taboo to publicly slap a strange woman across the ass and say "great ass, baby!", but it isn't exactly a taboo in a sc. waitresses aren't strippers or cab drivers. they don't have a whore's mentality like a stripper. which is why asking or expecting a tip isn't unnatural, unusual or offensive for a stripper. of course, giving a tip isn't mandatory. it's still totally at your discretion.
whether or not a stripper asks for a tip. if i don't tip a stripper. it simply due to the fact that she did nothing to earn it and her asking amuses rather than annoy. for instance, a stripper once asked me for a tip...after one dance! LOL...i don't know what she was thinking, but she cluelessly asked away. i just gave her a incredulous double-take and snickered loudly as i gave her a $20 bill. perhaps, i should have gave her a tip for making me laugh. LOL...it was a beautiful thing.
xdamage
10-12-2007, 10:32 PM
I'm again utterly mystified at the discussion regarding dancers have to "give some of their earnings to the club", and what this has to do with tipping.
The strip clubs are in business to make money. SCs aren't charity organizations built to provide dancers with free places to work for themselves. SCs aren't simply bars that provide dancers with a free places to work for themselves.
Dancers are independent contractors who are using the club's facilities.
The club pays insurance, for the property (rent, lease, or buy), advertising, liquor license, supplies, maintenance, pays employees, provides security, and so on. All of that costs MONEY folks. Someone has to pay for it with something. Drinks sure, but when you all are strip club owners then you get to decide for yourself if you only want to make money selling drinks.
I mean hell, we'd all love to work for ourselves, keep 100% of our profits, and have someone else pay for the facilities, insurance, upkeep, security, advertising, etc., but that makes no business sense to anyone but someone who is oblivious to what these things costs.
I claim the business contract between the contractor and the facility owner is a complete and utter red-herring with regards to tipping.
xdamage
10-13-2007, 07:46 AM
Dancers pay to work... so the club takes some percentage of the dance cost no matter what. If my house fee is $100 and I make $300, the house takes a 33% cut of my earnings.
Our company (like most companies) has to pay rent for the building we work out of . Even if we lose money or make nothing (break even) in a given month, we still must pay for the use of the building. The building owner takes care of paying the insurance, paying for other employees and contractors to keep up the property, the building owner pays for repairs, the building owner pays for the land, the building owner pays taking care of the grounds around the building, the building owner carries the risk that property value will drop, the building owner pays for all the permits needed to open a business facility, the building owner is on call 24/7 if needed, and so on
We don't say "we have to pay to work" - we just call this part of our operating expenses, and we pay them even if we lose money in a given month. We also understand that the facility owner is in it to make money too and we don't get to use the facility for free just because we had a bad day or month or year.
I don't object to dancers wanting to make as much as they can and tipping increases their income. This is human nature to want to make more. But for the same reason I don't object to the SC owner wanting to make more, or at least make enough every night to cover the cost (and time required) to do business. Likewise for the same reasons that dancers are often worried about their own bottom line, I don't believe for a second that if they were to invest several million of their own and 24/7 of their time to start a SC that they would be any more charitable.
Still, none of this has to do with the real reason dancers want to be tipped. Dancers want to be tipped because they make more money that way. Nothing wrong with that, but it has nothing to do with the business model. Many dancers make more money then their customers (and those that make little or nothing probably are in the wrong business). It's not like they work for minimum wage (about $40 a day before taxes) and the tips are their true core income.
mr_punk
10-13-2007, 08:04 AM
I'm again utterly mystified at the discussion regarding dancers have to "give some of their earnings to the club", and what this has to do with tipping.absolutely nothing, it's just an example of a whore's mentality at work. IOW, customers should tip to cover their overhead costs because they're taking off they're clothes and rubbing on their dicks. after all, it's the least customers can do to show their appreciation.
Still, none of this has to do with the real reason dancers want to be tipped. Dancers want to be tipped because they make more money that way. Nothing wrong with that, but it has nothing to do with the business model. Many dancers make more money then their customers (and those that make little or nothing probably are in the wrong business). It's not like they work for minimum wage (about $40 a day before taxes) and the tips are their true core income.agreed. if a stripper wants tips...fine. if she thinks $20 is too little to rub on dicks and wants a little extra for her trouble...hey, no problem. however, don't blow smoke up my ass and compare yourself to a waitress. don't tell me you're being jipped or cheated by customers who don't tip. it's not the same thing.
bem401
10-13-2007, 09:42 AM
Bem, help me, I'm confused. What does giving golf lessons or math tutorials have to do with a dancer having to give 5, 10, 30 dollars or whatever the cut to the house may be every time she sells a dance? Are you kicking a percentage back to Spaulding or Nike when you help a guy with his swing? I'm betting the answer is no.
Furthermore, though some girls freelance their prices, for the most part dancers do not set their price, the club does.
Actually, Yoda, the golf lessons is a nearly perfect analogy. The driving range ( SC) provides the facility. I give the lesson in a particular stall ( booth ) . There is a fee for my time, but I am not employed by the range, just like a dancer is not employed by the club. I am required to buy the range balls from the shop out of my fee ( essentially a room fee/kickback to the facility). The main difference is I don't hang out at the range and approach people for lessons, nor do I have to pay the range anything other than the cost of the buckets.
I am also free to set my own price but market forces dictate what any of us who teach golf can charge for our time. Except for those with the greatest demand for their time, we all charge about the same, much like what occurs in a SC.
I also give my client more time than I bill for unless I have another lesson waiting and I never get ( nor do I expect to get ) a tip. And to address the point Sophia made, it never crossed my mind that the fact I am forced to share with the facility somehow means a tip is in order. I have to admit it would be nice but it isn't something that is even on the radar in my case.
xdamage
10-13-2007, 11:16 AM
...IOW, customers should tip to cover their overhead costs because ...
I guess I'm just constantly amazed by how many dancers really seem to believe that it makes sense that they should be able to work as an independent contractor in someone else's facility, use the facility for their benefit, keep all profits, yet at the same time feel that they should owe absolutely nothing to the facility, and have absolutely no responsibility to the facility owner (e.g., no responsibility to make a guarantee of income for the facility owner, or even a guarantee that they will show up for work).
Maybe that would make some sense if dancers were rare, and hard to find, but that's sure not the reality in any clubs I visit. They are turning them away left and right. That they have to pay say $100 a night to use the facility, well I just look at that as a guarantee of income for the club.
Guaranteed income for the club??? Why those greedy bastards!!! If I make no money then neither should the club! They should just go on paying the bills for maintaining this facility for me! Pfttt...
Some dancers actually call this "greed", this idea that the club owners want to make money from their business, even a guarantee of $100 a night from a dancer for letting them use their club to sell themselves. Greed? Versus say a dancers want for tips on top of $20 for 3 minutes of entertainment, which is what? Not "greed" because the g-word is bad, and dancers can't possibly be motivated by something as simple as the same desire for money that drives the club owners. That would imply they are greedy, bad, and then they'd feel bad about themselves, and no matter, we just can't have that.
What's ironic is that dancers don't get it when customers view their want for tips on top of $20 for the dance as nothing more then the same ?greed? they complain about club owners of. Everyone in the SC has their hand out and has the "give me more" mindset.
Phil-W
10-13-2007, 12:08 PM
The concept of proportionality has to come in here.
If a dancer is going to use the facilities of a club to earn her living, fine, she should pay a fee to do that.
However, having paid her fee (and all the other costs like associated tip outs) she should be able to walk out of the club with a decent profit.
If a club puts on too many dancers per shift just to maximise it's own income, then that's unfair on the dancers.
Fine, charge the dancers a fee, but also make sure that you book a fair number of dancers on the shift so that they'll all got a chance to earn. Don't put so many on that some are going to struggle to make a living.
All that ultimately results in is the customers being hustled into oblivion, and possibly taking their business to another club that has a more reasonable number of dancers on.
Phil.
LapOfLuxury
10-13-2007, 12:09 PM
I tip about 99.7% of the time for dances. The only way a dancer doesn't get a tip from me is if she displays a bad attitude.
The last time it happened, the dancer stopped dancing about 30 seconds before the song was over and asked if I wanted another dance. I told her the 1st dance wasn't over yet. She replied that the dance was over and asked again if I wanted another one. "No, thank you," I said. So she started to get dressed with the song STILL not over. She couldn't be bothered to finish the 1st dance unless I committed to a 2nd. So no tip.
yoda57us
10-13-2007, 12:20 PM
I am required to buy the range balls from the shop out of my fee ( essentially a room fee/kickback to the facility).
OK, I'll give you that one: Ball fee = Dancer house fee.
The main difference is I don't hang out at the range and approach people for lessons, nor do I have to pay the range anything other than the cost of the buckets.
Right, so your done paying the "house" after you buy the balls. You don't have to tip the kid that goes out to shag the balls (the bouncer), the guy who schedules the time for you(the house mother), the guy who washes the balls (the parking lot attendant) and there is no "per lesson fee" from the club. I'm assuming that you figure the cost of the balls into your fee since you are pretty good at math....
I also give my client more time than I bill for unless I have another lesson waiting and I never get ( nor do I expect to get ) a tip. And to address the point Sophia made, it never crossed my mind that the fact I am forced to share with the facility somehow means a tip is in order. I have to admit it would be nice but it isn't something that is even on the radar in my case.
It's nice that you give them more time... I have to admit that I'm pretty mercenary in the way I bill clients...strippers are an expensive hobby...
Still, it is your choice to give them extra time or not.
When you say "share with the facility" it makes me wonder just how much those balls cost vs. what your fee for a lesson is. I'm not asking you to tell us since I think that sort of thing is a private matter but I can't help thinking the ball fee is relatively low compared to your hourly rate.
Look, my only point here, and not just to BEM, is that, even though a dancer "keeps" her money, she has to pay to play at every turn in a strip club. The entire operation is set up so that the non-dancer employees are payed primarily in tips from dancers and or customers. We can all choose to tip, never tip or sometimes tip but I certainly can't blame a dancer for hoping that we will.
I will never be accused of throwing money around in a strip club like some sort of high roller but I do understand that, particularly on slow days, a big chunk of a dancer's revenue can go toward greasing the palms of those at the club who keep her busy, safe, scheduled and having something to dance to. When you see that roll of 100's, 50's and 20's in her garter that is not the whole story.
bem401
10-13-2007, 12:53 PM
Still, it is your choice to give them extra time or not.
When you say "share with the facility" it makes me wonder just how much those balls cost vs. what your fee for a lesson is. I'm not asking you to tell us since I think that sort of thing is a private matter but I can't help thinking the ball fee is relatively low compared to your hourly rate.
I'm not advocating extra time on anyone's part.
Regarding the fees, the balls cost $8 or $10 a bucket and I get about $60 for an hour's lesson.
Any of the extra expenses you mentioned that are relevant are covered out of the ball fee.
Embyr
10-13-2007, 01:18 PM
It ruins the fantasy, pulls us into reality. Its just about the money....
Entitlement: And just as when a server in any other industry demands a tip, which is what you are doing when you ask for one, you are declaring you are entitled to one. This completely turns me off, and ruins the afterglow of what could have been a wonderful experience.
I see this as the crux of the 'tipping when asked' problem. The rare times that I am a customer, I would agree wholeheartedly with the majority of respondents in this thread... a dancer may or may not get a tip depending on how enthralling a dance was, but upon asking for/demanding one- the tip is going out the window, regardless. Entitlement just ISN'T sexy. As a dancer, I refuse to ask for tips. No matter how much I may feel I've gone out of my way for a customer who I thought was going to come through (dances at my club are $50.00 bed dances, 2-way contact, full nude... use your imagination), I still keep my mouth shut. Why? Because I've heard, time and time again, that the first time a dancer asks for a tip is the last time she gets a dance. And in dayshift, every customer counts. We can't afford to lose one to greed or entitlement.... not worth it. The ONE time I asked (alright, DEMAnded) a tip (err, compensation, in this case) was when a customer pulled out my nipple ring. Oh HELL no. But OTHEr than extreme circumstances... :P
xdamage
10-13-2007, 02:28 PM
However, having paid her fee (and all the other costs like associated tip outs) she should be able to walk out of the club with a decent profit.
I wish we all had guarantees of profits, but none of us do. In every business we have expenses and competitors and no guarantees that we will recoup our expenses or that our competitors won't take our business.
If a club puts on too many dancers per shift just to maximise it's own income, then that's unfair on the dancers.
Fine, charge the dancers a fee, but also make sure that you book a fair number of dancers on the shift so that they'll all got a chance to earn. Don't put so many on that some are going to struggle to make a living.
The problem with that is it appeals to those who are the ones who are hired, and seems then "unfair" to those who are not. Let's say a club fires 1/2 of the dancers allowing 1/2 to make more. Fair? Certainly fair to those who get to stay, but the other half will feel it's not.
Personally I don't believe there is an answer that makes everyone happy all of the time. You just have to trade off and there are different winners and losers. And face the fact that as more girls are willing to do the job, the amount they will tend to be paid for it will tend to decrease. Basic supply and demand that applies to other business as well.
p.s. I generally tip, but still, it has nothing to do with the business arrangement between the club owners and dancer. I tip because a.) feel like it, and/or b.) plan to get another dance and it tends to work out that a tipped dancer is happier and so tends to do a better job next time around. Still, one could argue even that's my greed, I tip to insure good service for me.
xdamage
10-13-2007, 02:53 PM
...but I certainly can't blame a dancer for hoping that we will. ...
I don't think anyone does, or at least I don't. It's human nature that people want to make more if they can.
I guess though what I do think is that even if they weren't having to give something to the club for using the club, they'd still want tips because given a choice between being tipped or not tipped, people in services businesses will tend to choose to want to be tipped.
That's why I believe much of the rest of the discussion is a red-herring, true, but not really relevant to the real motivation for wanting tips. They are not asking for tips because some of the money goes to the house. They are asking for tips because they make more money then if they did not receive tips.
Imagine a dancer gets to keep it all. It's a slow night. Choices are make $60, or make $60+tips. Why would she say well, I don't need tips, I made $60 and I don't have to give any of that back?
Really though that they don't get to keep everything is not unique to dancing. There aren't too many professions I can think of where what you hand someone in $$s they get to keep it all. In most every case some of that money is handed off to others and expenses. Strippers aren't being persecuted because they would like to keep more. We all would like to make more and keep more, but in most businesses what the customer hands us in $$s is not 100% keepable profit. A big chunk invariably goes to pay off our operating costs (e.g., rent, other people, insurance, upkeep, lawyers, etc.) I mean it does suck that everyone from the landlord to the insurance company to service contractors want more, but they aren't asking more from us to persecute us. They just want more just like we want more.
Sophia_Starina
10-14-2007, 08:34 PM
waitresses aren't strippers or cab drivers. they don't have a whore's mentality like a stripper.
Whore's mentality? Have you gone completely off the deep end?
That was a pointless insult..... a crude generalization that has no basis in fact.
You are trying to be vulgar just for the sake of being vulgar. I'm not impressed.
Sophia_Starina
10-14-2007, 08:42 PM
what social taboo? i mean, it's a social taboo to publicly slap a strange woman across the ass and say "great ass, baby!", but it isn't exactly a taboo in a sc. waitresses aren't strippers or cab drivers. they don't have a whore's mentality like a stripper.
Do you honestly think that the price of admission to a club grants you the right to completely abandon all social and cultural norms. Do you think that another human being (stripper or otherwise) would appreciate you slapping their ass for any reason?
Why do you assume you get to work out all of your disrespectful, degrading impulses in a strip club???????
Last I head, people went to clubs to have a good time and be entertained, not to degrade the workers.
I'm not arguing either and really it's an interesting discussion but I had to point out a couple of things...
First of all where I'm from (Montana) everyone gets paid minimum wage. The bartender makes $6.15 an hour, so does my waitress at Dennys. So do I for that matter. Does this fact somehow make it less appropriate to tip your waitress in Montana? The whole premise of some of the statements I've been seeing is that they get tipped beause they NEED it (i.e. the house takes a cut or they're not making minimum wage). Is that really the only difference?
Also there is a difference between demanding and asking. When I finish a set of dances and tell the gentleman that "that'll be $75. Tips are always appreciated!" He then an hand me $100, $77, $75 or any other amount he likes and the no will never have to be spoken. Now if he were to hand me 75 nor 77 dollars and I were to behave inappropriately (i.e. getting angry, making him feel guilty, or otherwise causing a scene) THEN I could see him being inclined to take his buisness elsewhere. Simply asking though? I don't see how that would be the least bit offensive.
I don't know, that it's really even a greed issue. I just feel that it never hurts to ask and that to no longer patronize a dancer who merely asked is slightly unreasonable.
mr_punk
10-15-2007, 04:52 PM
That was a pointless insult.no. this is an example of a pointless insult (http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1239544&postcount=119). believe it or not, i do have a point and while you may like it. it is what it is.
a crude generalization that has no basis in fact.it doesn't? hmmm....that's funny. IIRC, you stated:
If I offer great service (with a smile, longing looks, looooooots of contact, really precious little gestures, etc.) why shouldn't I get a tip?IOW, you think you deserve additional compensation because you feel that you sell a high quality, intimate service not to mention a high overhead. frankly, that notion is more analogous to one of your sex worker counterparts (ie: a whore) than a waitress. like i said, i don't have a problem with you wanting to be tipped. however, you not being tipped by a customer in a sc is not even remotely analogous, by any stretch of the imagination, to a waitress being stiffed on a tip by a customer in a restaurant.
mr_punk
10-15-2007, 04:55 PM
Do you honestly think that the price of admission to a club grants you the right to completely abandon all social and cultural norms.no. my point is that often social and cultural norms OTC have nothing to do with social and cultural norms ITC.
Do you think that another human being (stripper or otherwise) would appreciate you slapping their ass for any reason?you tell me. recently, i walked ITC and spotted this stripper i was looking for and done business with in the past. she's leaning against the wall talking to another stripper. anyway, as i walked past her. i slapped her across both ass cheeks with one shot and without braking stride. i motioned for her to head over to my table. now, what did she do? did she? (a) hit me over the head with a beer bottle, (b) chastise me for degrading her or (c) came right over to my table faster than a speeding bullet with dollar signs in her eyes and cocktail napkins in her hand? do you need a hint?
Why do you assume you get to work out all of your disrespectful, degrading impulses in a strip club???????just because you would feel degraded doesn't mean she would feel the same way. in fact, if you think a slap across the ass is degrading. oh, that's tame compared to what i've done to their ass cheeks during a PD.
Phil-W
10-15-2007, 05:27 PM
Do you honestly think that the price of admission to a club grants you the right to completely abandon all social and cultural norms.
But we do swap one set of norms for another. For example, you wouldn't dream of stripping naked for strangers except in the SC environment - and we would not dream of staring as obviously as we do except in that same environment.
Ditto, it's acceptable to mislead our friends when playing poker in order to take their money (but not to cheat them). Similarly, it's acceptable to cheer violence in a boxing ring, but not outside of it.
Social and cultural norms do get substantially changed inside a SC - the question is how much change is acceptable. Everyone will have their own interpretation about how much change is OK. And if the interpretations are widely different, someone is going to feel offended.
recently, i walked ITC and spotted this stripper i was looking for and done business with in the past....as i walked past her. i slapped her across both ass cheeks with one shot and without braking stride. i motioned for her to head over to my table. now, what did she do? did she? (a) hit me over the head with a beer bottle, (b) chastise me for degrading her or (c) came right over to my table faster than a speeding bullet with dollar signs in her eyes and cocktail napkins in her hand?
An example of norms being bent. As we assume the outcome was (c) thare was a degree of mutual consent. As mr_p has acknowledged she was over "faster than a speeding bullet with dollar signs in her eyes" - this particular dancer has decided that the potential earnings are worth playing mr_p's games.
Those games are not for everyone - I for one would not make with the slap, and it's clear Sophia_s would probably go for mr_p's option (a). But I would assume that both mr_p and the dancer in question have reached a tacit agreement in the past as to what's acceptable and what's not. So they're staying within their unspoken rules.
If I offer great service (with a smile, longing looks, looooooots of contact, really precious little gestures, etc.) why shouldn't I get a tip?
No reason why not, but not all guys will react in the same way.
Some might not like your dance - for example you might get a guy who likes low contact dances.
Others might continue buyng dances rather than tip. You'll still end up with a decent amount of money, but you'll dance longer to get it.
Other guys will tip - particularly if they sense there's above average effort going into the dances. And some guys won't tip - period.
To expect a single standardised response is perhaps a little optimistic.
Phil.
Jenny
10-15-2007, 06:43 PM
Social and cultural norms do get substantially changed inside a SC - the question is how much change is acceptable. Everyone will have their own interpretation about how much change is OK. And if the interpretations are widely different, someone is going to feel offended.
You might say that everyone has their own interpretation of how to behave decently on the subway. Some think that on a crowded subway car you should keep your hands close to your own person and try to invade other's space as little as possible. Some think you should use the opportunity to grope strangers. Now if these interpretations are different - someone is going to be offended. However, there is, in addition to these individual interpretations, a fairly common idea of what is acceptable. And to avoid offended and assaulting people, you should probably go with that one. No sane and reasonable human being thinks that because you pay people you are obliged or entitled to treat them shabbily. And only an idiot thinks that because people put up with being treated shabbily because of financial imperative that it makes it somehow okay.
An example of norms being bent. As we assume the outcome was (c) thare was a degree of mutual consent. As mr_p has acknowledged she was over "faster than a speeding bullet with dollar signs in her eyes" - this particular dancer has decided that the potential earnings are worth playing mr_p's games.
Yeah. Well. Let's see. Because it would be really beneficial for punk to tell us about the 2 girls prior to her who turned around and snarled "don't you TOUCH me". Consent is not something that is determined post hoc. By definition it is established beforehand. So, no - there was no degree of mutual consent unless punk has left something out of the story. Further - women in strip clubs tolerate all sorts of behaviour that meets the definition of sexual exploitation or assault. (Up here that means force applied, without consent, of a sexual nature). That doesn't make it consensual. If a guy has sexual intercourse with a woman (or man) who is passed out and doesn't consent, it doesn't become magically consensual because he buys her (or him) breakfast the next day, and they agree to go out again. Sorry Phil, but you can't say "and then she didn't mind, so there was consent." Consent has to be given beforehand. That is what consent means.
Those games are not for everyone - I for one would not make with the slap, and it's clear Sophia_s would probably go for mr_p's option (a). But I would assume that both mr_p and the dancer in question have reached a tacit agreement in the past as to what's acceptable and what's not. So they're staying within their unspoken rules.
Why do you assume that? My roommate works a "straight" job. Her boss routinely blames her for her own mistakes, and excoriates her if she is having a bad day. My roommate keeps going into work. Does that mean that she's reached a tacit agreement that such treatment is acceptable, or does it mean that she can't afford to quit her job? I have a friend who is a nanny. A friend of hers (who I have never met) is sexually harassed by her boss. The terms of her visa are extremely restrictive and she doesn't want to go home. Are these "rules" then mutual? Have we determined that there is a mutual agreement and post hoc consent? My friend routinely works outside her paid hours (she lives in) and performs duties that she is not paid for - again the terms of her visa are very restrictive. Is this a mutually established framework? Let's not be silly, Phil. The exchange of money doesn't vitiate shabby, discourteous treatment. It means that people might feel that they have no choice except to put up with it.
Sorry - side tracked, I know, but this particular analysis incensed me a little.
mr_punk
10-16-2007, 04:28 AM
Consent is not something that is determined post hoc. By definition it is established beforehand.you hear that? you guys be sure to press criminal charges for sexual assault, the next time a stripper sticks her knee in your crotch or sticks her hand up your shorts without your consent (and these girls do) in an attempt to get you to buy another dance. let's throw all of these these nasty skanks in jail.
The exchange of money doesn't vitiate shabby, discourteous treatment.bwhahahah...you mean like stringing a PL along for a ride? of course, we all know you girl scouts are above this sort of behavior. but hey, i understand. after all, it is a sc.
Sorry - side tracked, I know, but this particular analysis incensed me a little.oh, no need to apologize. side tracking is your speciality. you go grrrl!
Jenny
10-16-2007, 05:15 AM
Sigh. Punk, I thought I told you that I'm on sabbatical from you until you're funny again. Nothing you said mitigates or changes anything I said at all - so if you're not at least funny, there is no point at all to your response.
Sophia_Starina
10-16-2007, 10:31 AM
I have a few thoughts to add:
1. I and the vast majority of women who strip are not whores. They don't have a whore's mentality/outlook/or predisposition. To say otherwise is pure fallacy.
2. Men who brag about going to third world countries and fucking women for pennies on the dollar are vile slugs and deserve to be called such because they contribute to the situation where women are placated with some money but not enough money to actually get out of their current circumstances thus "keeping them in their place" and ensuring that there plenty of "attractive" prostitutes to suit the tastes of dickwads like arctic717. Not that arctic717 has anything to do with this thread but since we're taking things out of context I felt that I should join in.
3. Punk, if you ever slap my ass in a club I will have you bounced out on YOUR ass as I have done many times to to other custies that touched me inappropriately.
4. You go to strippers to get sexy dances, you go to waitresses to get dinner. You should tip both if you get good service.
Phil-W
10-16-2007, 03:52 PM
No sane and reasonable human being thinks that because you pay people you are obliged or entitled to treat them shabbily. And only an idiot thinks that because people put up with being treated shabbily because of financial imperative that it makes it somehow okay.
I personally am boringly polite to dancers - in terms of courtesy you will see no difference how I behave towards a dancer at work and a woman outside of it.
However, a significant percentage of customers do behave badly towards dancers, and most dancers put up with a degree of discourtesy they would not put up with outside of work. They put up with it for financial imperitives - if they didn't, they wouldn't earn anything like as much. I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it is a fact of life - and one many dancers acquiesce in.
Sorry Phil, but you can't say "and then she didn't mind, so there was consent." Consent has to be given beforehand. That is what consent means.
As I read it, there was a degree of consent in that mr_p knew the dancer, and she knew that she had the chance to earn money from him. She may or may not have liked the way she was treated, but the fact she came over with the expectation of getting some dances would suggest that mr_p assumed her 'consent' beforehand and was proved right by her actions.
What the dancer thought privately was another matter - but she can't have been too offended, or she would have called the bouncers.
And on the subject of consent, one dancer recently grabbed my family jewels as part of her sales pitch - an action which I had zero interest in her doing. Would you class that as acceptable behaviour?
Let's not be silly, Phil. The exchange of money doesn't vitiate shabby, discourteous treatment. It means that people might feel that they have no choice except to put up with it.
In which we are totally in agreement. I will treat any dancer politely, but I am not my brother's keeper. And I am under no illusions about what dancers put up with - I've had too many dancers vent to me on the subject not to realise how deep the hurt can go.
However, it comes back to choice. You and every other dancer has the option to say "you're treating me shabbily". Most dancers won't say it because of financial imperitives.
You're right in saying customers should not behave badly towards dancers, but do they not tacitly condone that bad behaviour by not protesting about it in order to maximise earnings?
Here's a final conundrum for you, Jenny. As I've said in earlier posts, I do pick up several dancers from work. From time to time, guys suss out that the dancers and I get on well and try to find out some personal info about them. I've got two choices:
(a) I can say she's a perfectly normal girl outside of work, this is all an act, and in reality she gets upset by the treatment she gets from many customers.
(b) I can duck the questions and leave her to get on with it.
In practice I chose (b) because (a) will cut into her earnings. - and I would not be thanked by the dancers for causing that.
What would you do in that situation?
Phil.
Jenny
10-16-2007, 04:08 PM
However, a significant percentage of customers do behave badly towards dancers, and most dancers put up with a degree of discourtesy they would not put up with outside of work. They put up with it for financial imperitives - if they didn't, they wouldn't earn anything like as much. I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it is a fact of life - and one many dancers acquiesce in.
On. Then this is one of those statements that is indicative of nothing. Lots of unjust, bad things are "parts of life." Being groped on the subway is a "part of life". I still get on the subway (acquiescing in your world view). Therefore it becomes a neutral act?
As I read it, there was a degree of consent in that mr_p knew the dancer, and she knew that she had the chance to earn money from him. She may or may not have liked the way she was treated, but the fact she came over with the expectation of getting some dances would suggest that mr_p assumed her 'consent' beforehand and was proved right by her actions.
Interesting. I read it as the gentleman in question didn't care about her consent and would view it as extraneous.
What the dancer thought privately was another matter - but she can't have been too offended, or she would have called the bouncers.
Again - that is a post hoc analysis that is not a valid way of obtaining consent.
And on the subject of consent, one dancer recently grabbed my family jewels as part of her sales pitch - an action which I had zero interest in her doing. Would you class that as acceptable behaviour?
No. Did you really need to ask me that?
In which we are totally in agreement. I will treat any dancer politely, but I am not my brother's keeper.
Indeed not. Apparently you are his apologist though.
However, it comes back to choice. You and every other dancer has the option to say "you're treating me shabbily". Most dancers won't say it because of financial imperitives.
Well yes. And my friend the nanny and my roommate can quit their jobs. What do you think this means? Like I don't really understand what you are extracting from this, or why you think it is a particularly valid extraction.
You're right in saying customers should not behave badly towards dancers, but do they not tacitly condone that bad behaviour by not protesting about it in order to maximise earnings?
No. I think I kind of already met this argument. Remember all the parallels with people in other workplaces? Would you tell my friend of a friend that she is tacitly condoning her sexual harassment? If no - what do you think is the distinguishing factor in your opinion? How about my roommate - there is no visa there. Is she tacitly condoning shabby treatment in her workplace by tolerating it? If so - I think you are either putting me on or have a very unrealistic understanding of most people's working situation. If not - where is the distinguishing factor?
Here's a final conundrum for you, Jenny. As I've said in earlier posts, I do pick up several dancers from work. From time to time, guys suss out that the dancers and I get on well and try to find out some personal info about them. I've got two choices:
(a) I can say she's a perfectly normal girl outside of work, this is all an act, and in reality she gets upset by the treatment she gets from many customers.
(b) I can duck the questions and leave her to get on with it.
In practice I chose (b) because (a) will cut into her earnings. - and I would not be thanked by the dancers for causing that.
What would you do in that situation?
Phil.
Um... I don't see those as being the only, or most desirable choices or that the question has so much to do with the issue at hand. Are we assuming that this guy is a guy who is regularly offensive? If so, is he like that on purpose, or does he just not know any better? What information is he trying to get? I would always say you should, except in some very particular circumstances, not answer personal questions about your "friends" in the strip club because of privacy issues. Nothing to do with any "persona." This doesn't seem particularly conundrumy to me at all, actually.
mr_punk
10-16-2007, 06:47 PM
Sigh. Punk, I thought I told you that I'm on sabbatical from you until you're funny again.if that means i'll see less of you around here. it's music to my ears, raed.
Nothing you said mitigates or changes anything I said at alli'm sorry. i fell asleep while you side-tracked into another feminist lecture. besides, it's not like it was relevant to what i said. but hey, you go, grrrl.
1. I and the vast majority of women who strip are not whores. They don't have a whore's mentality/outlook/or predisposition. To say otherwise is pure fallacy.yeah, you tell em, sophia. you're an artiste not a sex worker.
3. Punk, if you ever slap my ass in a club I will have you bounced out on YOUR ass as I have done many times to to other custies that touched me inappropriately.oh, scary, scary! is this supposed to be some kind of warning or shaming device? LOL...oh, you girls are so precious.
mr_punk
10-16-2007, 06:49 PM
She may or may not have liked the way she was treated, but the fact she came over with the expectation of getting some dances would suggest that mr_p assumed her 'consent' beforehand and was proved right by her actions. What the dancer thought privately was another matter - but she can't have been too offended, or she would have called the bouncers.exactly. basically, this boils down to two broads overreacting to the incident as if it happened to them. if they don't like being slapped on the ass..fine. however, it wasn't me. i never slapped either one on the ass. still, that's no reason to impose their outrage on me or the stripper. we got along just fine.
And on the subject of consent, one dancer recently grabbed my family jewels as part of her sales pitch - an action which I had zero interest in her doing. Would you class that as acceptable behaviour?tsk, tsk...sometimes, these girls are so incorrigible. i think you should press charges and send her ass to jail.
Darcy Foxx
10-16-2007, 09:31 PM
I think it all comes down to location.
At the club mr_p frequents, it's more than likely that slapping the girls on the ass (and much, much more) is a normal, accepted behavior. Whether they actually 'consent' to it or not is another matter, but since they obviously either aren't offended by it or are willing to look past any offense they may have taken for the opportunity to make more money, I guess it doesn't matter. It's entirely possible that this girl may go into the dressing room after the dance and complain to her colleagues about this asshole that slapped her, but if she showed no signs of being upset over the incident and actually used it as an earning tool, then obviously any offense she may or may not have taken towards the act obviously meant less to her than making a few extra dollars.
At my 'lame' club, slapping a girl on the ass will, nine times out of then, get you bounced right out of that door. Apart from a select few girls who just generally don't care, me and the majority of my co-workers will turn around and tell anyone who slaps us on the ass to 'fuck off', and there's a few little firecrackers that'd probably start slapping and pushing and screaming or even throw a drink.
That being said, I don't think it's acceptable to randomly going around slapping every stripper you see on the ass. In mr_p's case it seems that it was a behavior which had already in the past been deemed as appropriate by both him and the girl in question, so I don't see where the problem is.
Jenny
10-17-2007, 07:29 AM
I think it all comes down to location.I think location is pertinent for some things. Like for example - when I agree to do a dance a certain amount of contact is understood to be a part a part of that. So "Yes I'll dance for you" in my town will include "You have permission to feel my breasts" (sorry Darcy) and correspondingly that I have permission to, for example, sit on their laps. That does not mean, however, that customers have permission or consent to randomly slap me, on the ass or anywhere else, as I'm walking by - that is, before consent/permission has been exchanged. So while I agree that location can inform what kind of consent you give when you agree to do a dance, I don't think it informs or structures any pre-agreement contact. In the context of a dance, I think both parties should seek permission when doing anything outside of a standard dance-agreement. That is - certain things are implicitly agreed to when one agrees to do a dance. If I'm doing things that are or even may be different than those things, yes, I absolutely do get the customer's permission first. Always. "May I untuck your shirt?" "Can I pull your hair a little?" "Can I smack you across the face?" "Oh, oh, can I do it again?" "Can I scratch you?" or if I'm in a subtle mood a pause just before whatever I'm about to do and a "Do you mind?" Do they ever say no? Not often, but sometimes. And those few times definitely make it worth to ask to my mind.