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Jenny
10-28-2007, 06:57 PM
No, I just won't be trapped into what you want to hear, which is you are guiltless, with no responsibility for anything that happens, and men are bad. Fortunately, there are people who will tell you precisely what you want to hear, and you will stroke their egos and your own and tell them how wonderful they are. I keep avoiding your questions because they are bad questions to begin with, so can have no valid answers other then men are bad, dancers/women are good.
X, honey - I've got it. You have no intelligent response. It's okay. I'm not judging you. After all - you're just a customer, after all.

xdamage
10-28-2007, 07:05 PM
X, honey - I've got it. You have no intelligent response. It's okay. I'm not judging you. After all - you're just a customer, after all.


I expected you'd fall back on something like this... read between the lines... you did a great job of insulting every customer, "you're just a customer after all"...

I guess it amazes me though for some reason while your loathing for customers is so blatantly transparent to so many of us, it seems you still have managed to pull the wool over many of these guys eyes. Kudos to you, or poor poor them for not seeing through it. I guess on the bright side a bit of flash, smile, clever verbage will win over the "customers" who aren't smart enough to see your venom for them.

Me on the other hand, I see right through it, and there is no place to hide. Well except on the pink side, where you can surround yourself with people that tell you only what you want to hear. It's not a great way to grow, but it is a perfect way to feel good about oneself.

Jenny
10-28-2007, 07:07 PM
Now xdamage. Don't be bitter. I gave you a very even chance to post intelligent, reasonable rejoinder. I was more than fair to you.

xdamage
10-28-2007, 07:17 PM
Now xdamage. Don't be bitter. I gave you a very even chance to post intelligent, reasonable rejoinder. I was more than fair to you.


LOL. It's all good. Trust me, I'm not the least bit bitter. It happens. Relatively young people with relatively little practical experience let alone truly difficult experiences who think they know it all. I didn't expect you to understand everything I wrote. I'm however disappointed that so much of it, pretty much all of it, doesn't sink in. I mean I could so easily play you with compliments like some of the guys, but I keep hoping, because you do have potential, that you'll let go and broaden your mental horizons. At the moment though, you are very predictable. Maybe some more real life experience and you'll start letting go of the naive and politically correct and expected views.

Jenny
10-28-2007, 07:27 PM
I think that's great x. Really - I think it is super that you don't consider your... condition as something to be ashamed of. So many people think it is so crucial to be smart. But I'm sure you're a super nice person. And you've probably got a really good personality. And that's important too.

xdamage
10-28-2007, 08:34 PM
Really - I think it is super that you don't consider your... condition as something to be ashamed of.

I'm definitely not ashamed. I would be ashamed of of being an entirely predictable tool who repeats the PC beliefs of the moment in history in which the are born, with no real deeper understanding of human nature or why people behave as the do. If that's a condition, I hope I pass it on to more people.

Jenny
10-28-2007, 08:38 PM
X - there's the bitterness again. Just let it go. Just be who you are, okay?

Svelt
10-29-2007, 11:38 AM
Jenny I would like to make a request.

Would you present an intelligent argument countering your position?

I think we would all find it instructional.

Jenny
10-29-2007, 11:55 AM
I'm sorry - you want me to posit an intelligent argument on why guys don't need my permission before touching me?

Yeah... that's not happening. I'm sort of invested in the position that they do; you know, valuing my physical autonomy and all.

But to start - I could be over focused on the argument with x, so forgive me if I'm making this inappropriately narrow - again, simply presenting some basis for the conjecture that permission is not needed in a stripclub at leastto the degree to which it is needed outside the stripclub (because like I said - I think one could reasonably infer that there is a heightened need for permission). If you want me to give that to you - no, I don't have anything. I think that position is... you know. Wrong. And so far as I can see, it is pretty meritless. But I'm interested if you have anything - if for no other reason, than I really don't. By the same token, if I am making it overly narrow, I'd be interested in how you'd like to frame it.

Lapaholic
10-29-2007, 12:32 PM
OK ... My prob with this whole argument is the nature of the touch ... It started as a booty slap and I think most would say no thats not appropriate even in a sc.

But if a guy comes up to dancer and puts his arm around her and asks to go do a PD . I think an independent observer on the event horizon of the black hole that is male/female interaction would say that was ok.

In fact take that same situation to a disco/night club to ask some nice young lady for a dance. The some observer would not find an issue with that. And really, I think many SC are in fact trying to duplicate that environment - albeit with all the women being paid to say 'yes'.

When u go to a SC or Night club, you check your coat and some ( not all ) inhibitions at the door. I mean there is appropriate touching and then there is inappropriate. Now some times no touching.... is the proper ethic.

IE - your in the megalo-mart and walk up to the female store clerk. You would not wrap your arm around her waist to ask her where they keep the condoms. If u did, that poor guy observing all this crap would not approve.

I wonder if Jenny's objection has less to do with physical integrity and feminism and more to do with an objection to being touched. I mean i can empathize in that I am not a touchy-feely kind of person. I dont hug everyone i meet but some people do. This may have less to do with proper etiquette, genes, hormones and the like and more to do with one's comfort level at being touched.

Jenny
10-29-2007, 12:48 PM
Okay, I can grant that there is a difference between innocuous touching and sexual touching. So slapping my ass is out; tapping me on the shoulder is okay.

And I think you're right in that it doesn't have anything to do with feminism - except insofar as feminism had a role in altering social stereotypes about touching certain kinds of women (i.e. marital rape, loose women, sexual harassment in the workplace). But I don't see that as a particularly close connection.

Regarding my feelings about being touched - I would say that I'm average. I hug my friends, but not acquaintances. I do have a serious aversion to being touched (in a sexual or violent manner), without payment or negotiation, in a stripclub (not that I would have taken money from the guy who wanted to burn me with his cigarette, but you know what I mean). I do think that is about physical integrity, though. I mean, it may not seem that way to you because nobody is arguing that everyone you meet (the one's that you don't hug) have some sort of presumptive right to you. If they were - you might feel a little more like your physical integrity was under attack.

Svelt
10-29-2007, 01:49 PM
I'm sorry - you want me to posit an intelligent argument on why guys don't need my permission before touching me?

Yeah... that's not happening. I'm sort of invested in the position that they do; you know, valuing my physical autonomy and all.

But to start - I could be over focused on the argument with x, so forgive me if I'm making this inappropriately narrow - again, simply presenting some basis for the conjecture that permission is not needed in a stripclub at leastto the degree to which it is needed outside the stripclub (because like I said - I think one could reasonably infer that there is a heightened need for permission). If you want me to give that to you - no, I don't have anything. I think that position is... you know. Wrong. And so far as I can see, it is pretty meritless. But I'm interested if you have anything - if for no other reason, than I really don't. By the same token, if I am making it overly narrow, I'd be interested in how you'd like to frame it.

Here lies the rub, I agree with you Jenny, there should be consent before contact. Its also my opinion that most of the posters here do as well.

I think we are struggling to explain and justify actions that we don't condone. To better understand our struggle in providing an intelligent argument I want you to try to attempt it as well.

I understand you maybe vested, emotionally and perhaps with a bit of identity in your position. Please understand our struggle to provide an intelligent argument for something we may not believe in as well.

Jenny
10-29-2007, 02:01 PM
Oh dear... and this is the problem in girls coming across as so aggressive. I'm really not trying to force you to justify opinions and actions that you dont condone. That's not what I meant at all; I'm just easily excited. So - Oops. Sorry.

Here lies the rub, I agree with you Jenny, there should be consent before contact. Its also my opinion that most of the posters here do as well.

I think we are struggling to explain and justify actions that we don't condone. To better understand our struggle in providing an intelligent argument I want you to try to attempt it as well.

I understand you maybe vested, emotionally and perhaps with a bit of identity in your position. Please understand our struggle to provide an intelligent argument for something we may not believe in as well.

mr_punk
10-29-2007, 03:33 PM
OK ... My prob with this whole argument is the nature of the touch ... It started as a booty slap and I think most would say no thats not appropriate even in a sc.really? no matter the circumstances? funny, in an earlier post, neither Phil nor Darcy seemed to have a problem with my actions and this was despite the fact there was an absence of explicit consent from the stripper to have her ass slapped out on the floor. yet, i did it and she had no problem with it.

I wonder if Jenny's objection has less to do with physical integrity and feminism and more to do with an objection to being touched.well, you can sit there and ponder her issues if you like. suffice it to say, they are her own idiosyncrasies. they're not mine, yours or another dancer's or like i said before this thread got buried under 9,763 pages of complete thread-jacking BS. YMMV.

xdamage
10-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Well, I lost track of a lot of this, but personally I don't slap women on the ass in or out of the club. It's not a thrill for me.

I have however walked up to a dancer, put my hand out, she intuitively put her hand in mine, and told her let's go... I need a dance now. In every case they walked away without bruises, a little wealthier, there wasn't the slightest flicker of "OMG you fucking bastard violated my space" to be seen in their faces, and quite the opposite, I've heard quite the opposite, "thanks for coming to get me, it's made me feel good that you came to get me without my asking".

So how often do I walk up to women on the street and put my hand and expect them to take mine... never...

If some dancer somewhere is truly and honestly offended by what I described above, I'm sorry for her but I don't make my choices strictly based on the worst case. I'm sure there is a dancer out there who will one day flip out, and lose it for a guy not coming out and saying "May I touch your hand" but I'll deal with that when I come to it. The rest of the dancers though seem to be just fine with it, and so I'd call them the norm, and the set the standard for what I think of as allowable behavior in the club.

Simple as that.

mr_punk
10-29-2007, 05:36 PM
Well, I lost track of a lot of this, but personally I don't slap women on the ass in or out of the club. It's not a thrill for me.of course, you lost track of it. after all, that was the point of the thread jack. like i said, some of these girls can create drama out of thin effing air.

I have however walked up to a dancer, put my hand out, she intuitively put her hand in mine, and told her let's go... I need a dance now.i did that to a dancer i heard good things about. i walked up, grabbed her hand and started dragging her off for some LD. at first, she started walking and then, strangely enough, stopped and gave me this incredulous look that said,"why are you grabbing my hand?". i gave her an incredulous look that said,"why do you think i'm grabbing your hand?". finally, a lightbulb came on somewhere and she said ,"oh..ohhh, you want a dance.". i gave her a double-take and off we went as she started babbling all friendly like a chatty cathy. LOL...oy vey, these girls. i guess, you not only have to serve it to them on a silver platter. you have to draw them a map as well.

xdamage
10-29-2007, 05:41 PM
of course, you lost track of it. after all, that was the point of the thread jack. like i said, some of these girls can create drama out of thin effing air.

It's fun. After all, without the drama their life would be pretty boring and mundane.

Q: "What did you do at work today?"

A: "I ground on some guys lap for 15 minutes for $100"

See? Boring.. Now try it like this:;


Q: "What did you do at work today?"


A: "I fought the good fight. I struggled against the evil patriarchy that suppresses us all. The force is strong with me"

See? Much much more exciting and meaningful.

Lapaholic
10-29-2007, 07:00 PM
really? no matter the circumstances? funny, in an earlier post, neither Phil nor Darcy seemed to have a problem with my actions and this was despite the fact there was an absence of explicit consent from the stripper to have her ass slapped out on the floor. yet, i did it and she had no problem with it....

Nope -- u r right, we had established quite some time ago that a booty slap was OK if there had been some consent and ur booty slap was with an ATF ( or should I say wench ) of yours - or at least some one u had seen on previous visits. So yeah I phrased that badly ...


Previoulsy by Jenny >>>Regarding my feelings about being touched - I would say that I'm average. I hug my friends, but not acquaintances. I do have a serious aversion to being touched (in a sexual or violent manner), without payment or negotiation, in a stripclub (not that I would have taken money from the guy who wanted to burn me with his cigarette, but you know what I mean). I do think that is about physical integrity, though. I mean, it may not seem that way to you because nobody is arguing that everyone you meet (the one's that you don't hug) have some sort of presumptive right to you.


OK I get it ... I think ... Tho it does sound at odds with the environment u work. So u dont like to be touched because the customer feels he has a right to touch u. Even tho it may be innocent touching like putting his arm around your waist. Am I getting close?

xdamage
10-29-2007, 07:11 PM
[quote=Lapaholic;1263374] ... Tho it does sound at odds with the environment u work[./quote]

Well, for those who enjoy living the life of a victim (there are benefits, which I will explain below), it's quite common and enjoyable.

The victim loves it, but won't admit it. As a victim, they get to feel blamless, because victims are helpless, their persecutors have control. As a victim, they get to enjoy feeling like a key figure in a major drama, the heroin or hero in a major drama revolving around them. As a victim, they get to benefit from others with no actual sense of responsibility for the invariable negatives. Plus, those who have been victimized often try to relive it over and over again, hoping to find some solice or meaning in repeating history. It doesn't work, but they try, on the hand detesting their persecutors, on the other finding some sense of satisfaction in it. Victims should choose to break the cycle, but they rarely do, most often repeating and validating that they are victims endlessly.


It's really quite a good life and makes complete sense when you view it from the victim's point of view.

Jenny is someone who clearly does not belong in this industry, yet remains in it. Shame on the guys who go on encouraging her, and the girls too, who don't have the balls to see a pattern of emotional inability to cope, and keep on encouraging her. You all do more evil and harm then you can imagine, and frankly it's a terrible shame you care more about your egos then just telling her the truth - get the fuck out, and get a job that working along side or in competition with men instead of as a stripper where she clearly cannot handle it. Shame - it's incredibly cruel to tell people go go go when they are in over their head, just to avoid making a few waves or to suck up and be on a hot woman's good side.

Jenny
10-29-2007, 07:15 PM
OK I get it ... I think ... Tho it does sound at odds with the environment u work. So u dont like to be touched because the customer feels he has a right to touch u. Even tho it may be innocent touching like putting his arm around your waist. Am I getting close?Not precisely. I don't like being touched without giving permission to be touched. Honestly, I would never walk up to a strange man and touch him in a sexual manner (strip club or otherwise) stereotypes about male libido notwithstanding. It would be a) impolite and b) whether or not he'd be interested if I trotted up and said "So, hey, I would really like to take you somewhere and do lots of intimate touching" I sort of take it for granted that he... you know. Wants to have control over who is touching him.

Arm around the waist... I don't know. That could be innocuous, or it could be sexual in nature. It's hard to tell - can you characterize the nature of the arm? (I'm kidding. Sort of). But like I said - I am prepared to separate out sexual touching from innocuous touching. (Just as a side thing - you are the first person who actually brought that up). As for being at odds with the environment I work with.... it doesn't seem to be. Like I said - I like clearly delineated boundaries and questions and answers. It's not dislike for contact per se - I mean I have sexual contact frequently for free outside the stripclub - it doesn't mean that I don't want to exercise control over who is touching me (sexually) on the subway. I do a reasonably good lap dance - I don't just phone it in. I just want to grant and have permission granted before doing it.

Jenny
10-29-2007, 07:20 PM
Well, for those who enjoy living the life of a victim (there are benefits, which I will explain below), it's quite common and enjoyable.

The victim loves it, but won't admit it. As a victim, they get to feel blamless, because victims are helpless, their persecutors have control. As a victim, they get to enjoy feeling like a key figure in a major drama, the heroin or hero in a major drama revolving around them. As a victim, they get to benefit from others with no actual sense of responsibility for the invariable negatives.

It's really quite a good life and makes complete sense when you view it from the victim's point of view.
X - with the bitterness - I'm telling you it's not healthy. Is all this anger sheerly because I think you're not very smart? I mean - I can't possibly be the only one who thinks that. And, really - what does it matter? I'm sure, like, your mom thinks you're very clever indeed. And probably your wife. Maybe your kids. Why don't you just focus on them?

mr_punk
10-29-2007, 07:56 PM
Not precisely. I don't like being touched without giving permission to be touched. Honestly, I would never walk up to a strange man and touch him in a sexual manner (strip club or otherwise) stereotypes about male libido notwithstanding. It would be a) impolite and b) whether or not he'd be interested if I trotted up and said "So, hey, I would really like to take you somewhere and do lots of intimate touching" I sort of take it for granted that he... you know. Wants to have control over who is touching him.
okay. so, you're not a plopper. yay! i'm sure that's a load off everyone's mind or lap. now, if you would only take your thread jacking act upstairs and create a 9,732 post lecture series for the actual ploppers on the subject of why you think plopping is impolite.

But like I said - I am prepared to separate out sexual touching from innocuous touching.LOL...oh gee, what a coincidence.

xdamage
10-29-2007, 08:12 PM
X - with the bitterness - I'm telling you it's not healthy. Is all this anger sheerly because I think you're not very smart? I mean - I can't possibly be the only one who thinks that. And, really - what does it matter? I'm sure, like, your mom thinks you're very clever indeed. And probably your wife. Maybe your kids. Why don't you just focus on them?

Actually my mom died this year and being the Borderline Personality Disorder type she also lived the life of a victim. Trust me, it did not serve her well, particularly once she grew older and once her looks faded, men stopped sucking up to her, and she couldn't bare the truth.

As for the kids, they are both Engineering students, my daughter has a free ride for her Masters, and my son is well on his way, his teachers and hers have nothing but praises for their ability to write and think clearly.

As for the wife, except for vast differences in our emotional outlooks, well, like my work, which does involve me using my brains vs grinding on dicks for a living, I do impress.

On the other hand you are a dancer, on a customer oriented site, little practical experience in a world where decisions mean millions of dollars lost for customers (vs say my job, where an answer and solution or fuck up means several million an hour).

I think I know precisely how I value myself, and you can bet, there is absolutely nothing you can say that will alter my opinion that you are a self-centered naive young girl.

Jenny
10-29-2007, 08:15 PM
Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. That was really inappropriate, and I really wish I hadn't brought it up. Apparently my needling can go too far.

xdamage
10-29-2007, 08:19 PM
She died 3/31/2007

Jenny
10-29-2007, 08:20 PM
Again - I'm sorry. I don't know what to say. It was just a snide needling comment; I had no idea.

xdamage
10-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Forgiven - I'm sorry if I went too far too.