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U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
In the 1980's one in three pregnancies was terminated by an abortion. Today it is one in five and most women are NOT having abortions in clinics and doctors offices. They are having them at home using post conception pills.
This ought to make all but the worst extremists on either side of the abortion debate happy. Fewer abortions ought to please the RTL crowd. Less doctor and more PERSONAL involvement compounds the PRIVACY argument of the Women's Rights supporters. Moreover increased use of abortion inducing drugs ( legal in the U.S. since 2000 ) have strengthened the personal autonomy argument and here's how. Long before Roe v. Wade there was a Supreme Court case called Griswold v. Connecticutt giving women an absolute right to use birth control which includes "the Pill". It can be argued that modern post conception drugs like RU486 are just variants of the same thing. Only the most fanatical Right To Lifers have a problem with them- the Catholic Church; George Bush.
In fact Bush's appointees to the FDA were repeatedly caught with their pants down in dragging out approvals for other drugs like the "Plan B Pill" essential to insure that rape victims are not impregnated. Reams of statutes make it crystal clear that the only operative standard for approval of any drug is "safety and effectiveness" and Bush's FDA Director repeatedly made himself look like an ignorant jerk in trying to concoct data questioning both when none in fact existed.
In fact the current situation goes even a little further and creates greater discomfort for Republican candidates pandering to the Fundamentalists and Right to Lifers ( Huckabee; Romney ? ; McCain ). Science is trumping Roe v.Wade. Even if it is overturned and abortion regulation is returned to the states; some MIGHT be able outlaw D & C's and saline abortions which require a doctor's office at the least. But HOW could they outlaw certain drugs proven safe and effective and NOT run afoul of Federal statutes and Griswold ? How can RTL candidates explain away intrusions and interference with personal liberty and then turn around and say they favor "limited government" ?
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
there is a simple way to prevent abortions in the vast majority of circumstances that involves no drugs or chemicals or injections or some USUALLY MALE DOCTOR performing a procedure on female bodies.
catholics originally did an inaccurate version of it, but in the last 30 years have refined the method to something truly accurate and individual for each woman. it works over 95 percent of the time to prevent pregnancy. again, no chemicals. and it is increasingly popular among non-catholics (the most popular text on this method is in fact not religious in any way) because of its accuracy and simplicity. it's great to prevent pregnancy or increase one's chances of becoming pregnant.
where's the focus on this type of privacy, that doesn't involve putting anything in your body other than a thermometer for 60 seconds per day? and which reduces the odds of abortion being an option at all?
oh wait. no money for doctors in this one, and nothing to falsely ban like contraception. can't pass a law against thermometers and paper. i guess the extremists on both sides don't have an incentive to encourage a chemical free, easy to learn method that any female over the age of puberty can do.
it's even useful during menopause (when pregnancy doesn't even factor in) to better get along without needing a lot of artificial hormones.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
Rhythm method?
Oh, and D&C is not just used for abortion. Its also sometimes needed for miscarriages. How can they ban that?
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
Katrine
Rhythm method?
lol Yea kinda it is now termed "The fertility awareness method" (FAM) there are various ways of doing this by using a bbt (basal body thermometor) and a temping chart/software, checking your cervical fluid and/or cervical position, tracking ovulation using ovulation predictor kits....
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
There are those that would argue the reduction in abortions is the result of reduced access to providers; there are over 500 laws on the books that affect abortion provider availability.
Look at recent US birth rates and who's having those kids: the illegal, the poor, the uneducated and those that can't get access to abortion providers.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
It looks like "Plan B" is working great. I had to take it once, and will never do that again! Just imagine the worst hangover ever that hangs around for 2-3 days...That's what "Plan B" was like for me:crazy:.
I didn't know that RU486 was legal in the US. That's good. It is about time we came into the 80's medical science::).
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seraya
lol Yea kinda it is now termed "The fertility awareness method" (FAM) there are various ways of doing this by using a bbt (basal body thermometor) and a temping chart/software, checking your cervical fluid and/or cervical position, tracking ovulation using ovulation predictor kits....
it's not 'now termed' FAM-- they are two different methods. the rhythm method doesn't take into account varying cycle lengths-- FAM does, and also takes into account fertility shifts after pregnancy or if you don't have regular periods, etc. that is what makes it reliable in contrast to the rhythem method-- the goal is to precisely measure fertility for birth control or pregnancy methods. but it only costs a few dollars for the thermometer, not 30+ per month for the pill, or hundreds up front for an abortion. so of course there's no incentive to start with this cheap, easy, reliable method first.
hell, if you don't want to mess with the thermometer, you can just check cervical fluid, which works surprisingly well by itself. and that takes about 10-15 seconds per day.
of course, the stuff i'm talking about was well known in some non-white (the ones i know of are african-based) cultures long before the catholics got to it, or anyone western, for that matter. and it was valuable in managing pregnancies in a world without surgical abortions. and it's still valuable to think about cheap, easy, effective ways to avoid the hassle and expense and often physical strains of surgical and chemical abortions.
FAM as widespread, encouraged knowledge among women would reduce both incidence of abortion AND incidence of pregnancy.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
The method I learned is a combination of taking your basal body temperature, cervical fluid AND keeping track of calendar days. I'm thinking of doing this again, since condoms are not always the best and we hate using them.
I wasn't aware that Plan B is a form of abortion. I personally don't consider it as such, since the "baby" in question is just a very small cluster of cells, if the egg has even been fertilized at all. Often, sperm sits just below the cervix for days before it enters the uterus, and Plan B must be used within 72 hours to be effective. I'm not totally sure how the drug works chemically but I don't think it terminates the life of an embryo, or zygote.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
since plan b is an overdose of birth control pills, it is not clear whether it terminates a fertilised egg or not. some consider it likely given the dosage level; others rank it with the pill as 'not provable one way or the other'. it's theoretically possible, but there's no way to prove for sure it does or doesn't.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
miabella
since plan b is an overdose of birth control pills, it is not clear whether it terminates a fertilised egg or not. some consider it likely given the dosage level; others rank it with the pill as 'not provable one way or the other'. it's theoretically possible, but there's no way to prove for sure it does or doesn't.
There ARE absolutists and fanatics out there that want to ban RU-486; Plan B AND the pill claiming all are "abortive agents"; that once sperm and egg come together conception occurs and a "life" has been created.
While I lean toward being "pro-life" I'm far from a fanatic or absolutist. I have no problem with birth control pills; RU486 or Plan B. I can even accept ( reluctantly )1st trimester abortions. What bothers me are politicians who seem to have forgotten the days when abortion was mostly illegal and somehow want to return to that bygone era .
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
Casual Observer
There are those that would argue the reduction in abortions is the result of reduced access to providers; there are over 500 laws on the books that affect abortion provider availability.
Look at recent US birth rates and who's having those kids: the illegal, the poor, the uneducated and those that can't get access to abortion providers.
Then how do you explain the fact that over half of all abortions are occurring AT HOME via the use of drugs ?
It's true that a number of abortion clinics have shut down. It's also true that some pharmacies refuse to fill prescriptions for RU-486 or Plan- B drugs. Nonetheless it's how most abortions today are taking place.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
Eric Stoner
There ARE absolutists and fanatics out there that want to ban RU-486; Plan B AND the pill claiming all are "abortive agents"; that once sperm and egg come together conception occurs and a "life" has been created.
While I lean toward being "pro-life" I'm far from a fanatic or absolutist. I have no problem with birth control pills; RU486 or Plan B. I can even accept ( reluctantly )1st trimester abortions. What bothers me are politicians who seem to have forgotten the days when abortion was mostly illegal and somehow want to return to that bygone era .
the pill (and plan b) work by keeping the egg and the sperm from getting together in the first place. preventing implantation is a distanct third-line method that is unmeasurable because as far as anyone can tell, the first two methods (which only prevent sperm and egg from meeting) work the vast majority of the time. that is why anyone claiming otherwise is basically lying.
the majority of all conceptions fail to implant, period. it is a literal miracle any kid gets born, really, because most conceptions die naturally long before they can get to even the embryo stage.
since so many conceptions NATURALLY fail to implant, it is impossible with modern technology to make any useful guesses about whether the pill represents any portion of failed implantations. at BEST, the pill and plan b are responsible for PERHAPS a few failures to implant, but there is again absolutely no way to look at 1000 failed implantations and say 'x percentage are from the pill/plan b' and 'x percentage are CLEARLY natural-only'.
this is why the pharmacists refusing to dispense the pill make me so angry. they are clearly lying about the current state of affairs medically and scientifically and also not telling women that MOST CONCEPTIONS FAIL NATURALLY.
i should mail them some verses regarding the sins of self-righteousness and pride...
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
A kind of interesting notation from a book -
From Robin Baker's Sperm Wars - (see the chapter on "Routine Sex")
"Clearly, they have not repeated this particular act five
hundred times in order to have children. Nor are they unusual
in this. The average man and woman, no matter whether they
live in the bush of the Kalahari desert or in a multi-bedroomed
executive house, will have penetrative sex about two to three
thousand times in their lifetime. Yet, even without modern
contraception, most people have fewer than seven children.
This works out at about five hundred inseminations to produce
each child, though the precise figure is unimportant. Whatever
the fine details of the arithmetic, the conclusion is inescapable.
From the viewpoint of reproductive success, people do not have
routine sex primarily to produce children.
Nor are humans unique in this respect. In fact, compared
to other primates, we are probably fairly average in terms of the
number of inseminations per offspring. We pale into
insignificance compared with pygmy chimps, who seem always
to be having sex. Outside of primates, the lion, which takes three
thousand inseminations to produce another lion, also beats us
fairly easily. Some birds may mate only a handful of times for
each nestling, but others are about the same as us and mate
hundreds of times to produce each young bird. So why do we,
and all these other animals, mate so often if not to procreate?
How does routine sex help both men and women in their pursuit
of reproductive success?"
(read the book for the theories as to why)
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xdamage
A kind of interesting notation from a book -
From Robin Baker's Sperm Wars - (see the chapter on "Routine Sex")
"Clearly, they have not repeated this particular act five
hundred times in order to have children. Nor are they unusual
in this. The average man and woman, no matter whether they
live in the bush of the Kalahari desert or in a multi-bedroomed
executive house, will have penetrative sex about two to three
thousand times in their lifetime. Yet, even without modern
contraception, most people have fewer than seven children.
This works out at about five hundred inseminations to produce
each child, though the precise figure is unimportant. Whatever
the fine details of the arithmetic, the conclusion is inescapable.
From the viewpoint of reproductive success, people do not have
routine sex primarily to produce children.
Nor are humans unique in this respect. In fact, compared
to other primates, we are probably fairly average in terms of the
number of inseminations per offspring. We pale into
insignificance compared with pygmy chimps, who seem always
to be having sex. Outside of primates, the lion, which takes three
thousand inseminations to produce another lion, also beats us
fairly easily. Some birds may mate only a handful of times for
each nestling, but others are about the same as us and mate
hundreds of times to produce each young bird. So why do we,
and all these other animals, mate so often if not to procreate?
How does routine sex help both men and women in their pursuit
of reproductive success?"
(read the book for the theories as to why)
the bible pretty much explains why more than adequately. :)
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
^^^^
LOL, I guarantee the theories put forward in this book are not in the bible the same way you won't find any periodic table of the elements in the bible, the same way you won't find any details of quantum electro-dynamics in the bible, or any detailed anatomy and physiology in the bible. Believe it or not, some of us love that level of detail ;)
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Then how do you explain the fact that over half of all abortions are occurring AT HOME via the use of drugs ?
I don't explain that, because that's factually inaccurate. Less spittle, more empirical please.
Quote:
The French abortion pill RU-486, on the market since 2000, has become an increasingly common alternative, making abortion less clinical and more private. At a time when the overall number of abortions has been steadily declining, RU-486-induced abortions have been rising by 22 percent a year and now account for 14 percent of the total -- and more than one in five early abortions performed by the ninth week of pregnancy.
Guttmacher--whose stats are used by everyone and anyone on the subject matter--shows that 14 percent does not equal 50 percent. Not even close.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
Casual Observer
I don't explain that, because that's factually inaccurate.
Less spittle, more empirical please.
Guttmacher--whose stats are used by everyone and anyone on the subject matter--shows that 14 percent does not equal 50 percent. Not even close.
Hmmm. Then I wish the New York Times; MSNBC and Guttmacher would put their
heads together and agree on the numbers. MY source was the N.Y. Times and the figures I quoted were theirs.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xdamage
^^^^
LOL, I guarantee the theories put forward in this book are not in the bible the same way you won't find any periodic table of the elements in the bible, the same way you won't find any details of quantum electro-dynamics in the bible, or any detailed anatomy and physiology in the bible. Believe it or not, some of us love that level of detail ;)
:heartbeat
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seraya
lol Yea kinda it is now termed "The fertility awareness method" (FAM) there are various ways of doing this by using a bbt (basal body thermometor) and a temping chart/software, checking your cervical fluid and/or cervical position, tracking ovulation using ovulation predictor kits....
This seems like a lot of work. I think I've heard of people doing this who have problems conceiving and WANT to.
But for prevention? Augh. Seems time-consuming. I prefer other methods.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xdamage
^^^^
LOL, I guarantee the theories put forward in this book are not in the bible the same way you won't find any periodic table of the elements in the bible, the same way you won't find any details of quantum electro-dynamics in the bible, or any detailed anatomy and physiology in the bible. Believe it or not, some of us love that level of detail ;)
what details? science is not exclusively physics, y'know. and you even mentioned some of the not so falsfiable/unprovable bits that lurk even in quasi-sacred physics...
science is primarily a PROCESS, in which things are determined to be facts and then, later, reconsidered/rejected or kept.
science is what told people women were stupider than men, after all. and that's been found to be untrue. it also held that black people were 'scientifically' not really human, too. and that's untrue. there is a long list of scientific ideas that took centuries to be rejected as false (and not always through falsifiability or scientific proofs).
dark matter and memes are unprovable. evolution is a series of unfalsifiable theories, some of which can be aligned with biblical descriptions if one chooses, and some of which cannot.
there are bible verses describing why sex for pleasure is a great idea, saying pretty the very stuff you think scientists magically discovered very recently-- that is all i referred to. this hardly means the bible=science in anyone's mind, except those who worship science and worry someone's trying to take their god's spot somehow...
the bible is God's Word. it verifies some conclusions of science and doesn't verify others. but then, it wasn't written to be a new kind of 'science', or even to be compared directly to 'science'. fundies who say the earth is 6000 years old are falling into the same traps as people like you.
humans love to mask their doubts with a presumption that if they try hard enough, that they can become gods themselves, able to comprehend all that is or will be in creation. it's amazingly arrogant and pathetically human.
i love science (my non-stripping work and some of my hobbies kind of require a love of scientific processes and scientific principles) but for me, it's a tool to understand the immensity and glory of God's creation, not a god itself, to be worshipped and held infallible when it's a constantly changing process and series of theories.
you can be christian and notice the bible's accuracy predicting human behaviors and still think science is cool and think that things discovered via scientific mechanisms are pretty keen. they aren't mutually exclusive, sorry.
much of modern science's foundations were laid by christians eager to use the tool of science to better understand their relationship and interactions with God's creation.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
ahmeerah
This seems like a lot of work. I think I've heard of people doing this who have problems conceiving and WANT to.
But for prevention? Augh. Seems time-consuming. I prefer other methods.
1-2 minutes to check your temperature each day and write it down is 'time-consuming'?
you can also (or additionally) check cervical fluid, which is less than a minute per day for about 7-10 days per month after your period ends.
interesting definition of the term. didn't realise less than five minutes TOTAL a day was 'time-consuming'.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
Its still faster to pop a pill or ask your mate to wear a condom! This method just seems to leave more room for human error.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
Katrine
Rhythm method?
Oh, and D&C is not just used for abortion. Its also sometimes needed for miscarriages. How can they ban that?
They can't. My daughter had a Molar pregnancy (and yes it turned to cancer) and had to have that surgery...there is no way in hell they can stop any method needed to save ones life, baby on board or not.
She has been cancer free for 3 years!!!! Thanks to the surgery to remove a fetus with many cancer cells growing on the placenta.
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
Eric Stoner
Then how do you explain the fact that over half of all abortions are occurring AT HOME via the use of drugs ?
It's true that a number of abortion clinics have shut down. It's also true that some pharmacies refuse to fill prescriptions for RU-486 or Plan- B drugs. Nonetheless it's how most abortions today are taking place.
Morning after drug, i hardly would call that an abortion. The drug makes a women get her period. There is no baby at that point. It's not murder... 8)
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Re: U.S. Abortion Rate Declining
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Originally Posted by
Pamela
Morning after drug, i hardly would call that an abortion. The drug makes a women get her period. There is no baby at that point. It's not murder... 8)
Technically you are correct and it's also may be why and how the Times got sloppy with their numbers. The RTL fanatics consider it to be an abortofacient even though on a scientific, biochemical basis it is not. I think the Times included "morning after" and Plan B usage to come up with their 50% number counting them along with RU486 terminations.
There are many pharmacies and hospitals in the U.S. that will not stock or prescribe RU486; morning after or Plan B meds considering them all to be essentially the same.