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An actual, serious question
I first went to strip clubs about 20 years ago -- late 80s, early 90s. Back then, EVERY club I went to (I can think of clubs in St. Louis, New Jersey, Miami, Boston, New Orleans) was "you touch, you get thrown out. NO TOUCHING!" Then I took 10+ years off.
Started going again a couple of years ago, mostly in St. Louis. The game has completely changed...even (mostly?) at stage, it's a grope-fest. Not to even mention private dances..... And I know that St. Louis is a notoriously high contact area, but here the grope-fest is at the instigation of the dancer (taking your hands, guiding them, etc). Not that the darker parts of me don't like that....but why has so much changed in just a little over a decade? Why has the business gone from looking at naked women, to feeling the bodies of naked women?
I have a couple of theories of at least what's contributing to this (no one thing can explain it entirely), but I wonder if those of you who are older who have some historical perspective think you know why this is -- or if those of you who are younger know it wasn't always this way.
My leading theories:
1) The explosion of the internet, internet porn, and the "normalization" of porn/naked culture (Playboy has a mainstream TV hit? Really?) makes "going further" more normal and expected.
2) (Related) in the late 90s/early 00s -- much less so now -- there was a whole "girls gone wild/mardi gras/flashing/exhibitionism" craze in the meanstream -- lowering collective inhibitions about this kind of thing.
3) Basic competition driving things down to the lowest common denominator.
Thoughts?
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Re: An actual, serious question
I'd have to say it's all of the above, some combination of them. Seeing a nude woman is much easier now. It's the physical contact - even if not sexual! - that makes it worth spending the money lately.
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Re: An actual, serious question
There are about a zillion threads on this, if you look around. We talk about it all the time. But generally, yes, a lot of the speculation agrees with your own. Stripping's gone mainstream to an extent, the novelty is not what it was, more girls apply for the job which means more competition driving up contact levels, a post-boom economy where more girls are competing for fewer dollars. And so on.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Society has had an exponential moral decay in the sexuality/censorship department. There's no going back to those days of no-touch, prostitution-free strip clubs.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AznExtasy
Society has had an exponential moral decay in the sexuality/censorship department.
A good question to ask would be: exponential moral decay or exponential sexual liberation?
We, as sex workers, thrive off of sexual taboos. We cater to them where "normies" aren't able to bring themselves to provide a similar experience. In a much more liberal culture, all the "normies" could be said to be benefitting by the pogressive validation of exhibitionism, sexuality, etc, only at the expense of our collective livelihood as the tiny sex worker minority.
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Re: An actual, serious question
To me, sexual liberation is like what happened in the 60s(make love, not war). It still happens today in some cultures, but breast/pussy groping and extras in the club is anything but liberation to me.
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Re: An actual, serious question
No, I'm not really saying that (although there are some chicks that are ok with that w/in the clubs these days). I'm saying rather that our industry is almost serving as a martyr for the sexual lib of the general populace, or a reflection, or some weird combo of both.
I'm a stripper too, dont get me wrong. I wish men were still perfectly content and giggly to look my body without having to try and touch it too, but alas!! At least the civilians are getting more sexuality? Whether that's bad or good is very subjective.
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Re: An actual, serious question
only speaking for vegas one thing can explain it; girls became independent contractors and bouncers went from telling guys "hands off" to keeping quiet and leaving the monitoring of the groping to the girls. In las vegas every dancer is required to obtain a business license making her an owner and proprietor of her own business which in this instance is her body so now imagine every girl as a store with the "storefront" being what touching she allows, now imagine each girl or store in competition to deliver more to the customer so that they will get more business than their competitor. When the touching became self regulated instead of none across the board girls began to "up the ante" with touching.
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Re: An actual, serious question
I'd say all the theories you mentioned have some part in the reason for this.
I myself blame MTV and pop culture, the devil that it is, for alot of things. Don't even get me started on my hamster wheel about that.......:-X
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Re: An actual, serious question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AznExtasy
Society has had an exponential moral decay in the sexuality/censorship department. There's no going back to those days of no-touch, prostitution-free strip clubs.
I beg to differ since I work at just such a club. In Melbourne CBD thankfully there is no touching. There aren't extras to speak of - an extra would be something like kissing a customer.
Why? well it prob still works here because we have legal brothels everywhere around here. They are not strange "bunny ranch" type brothels where the women live there, they are just places where the woman shows up for work and leaves at the end of her shift. no big deal here. want to touch shit? go there.
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Re: An actual, serious question
It all comes down to competition weather it be among dancers, clubs, the internet or any other source of titillation. I also started going to clubs in the mid-eighties when there was no touching.
The old combat zone clubs in Boston had a hardcore drink hustle. The girls would sit with you and rub your leg under the table for as long as you kept buying them $20 watered-down champagne cocktails. In those days the up sell was as simple as rubbing the your middle leg under the table or taking it outside the club. The combat zone and it's clubs were considered pretty much morally depraved back in the day but where nothing compared to what has evolved in the last fifteen years or so.
I don't really give the internet all that much credit as this shift started long before the internet was a force. The internet has had a much more prominent effect on porn and prostitution than it has had on dancing, in my opinion. Of course in 2008 the internet effects everything, dancing included.
I think the biggest reason for the shift in contact is simple competition between clubs and between dancers. The first time I saw a dancer come off stage and dance in front of a customer for a tip was an eye-opening experience for me. The club in question only allowed the girls to lean in for a tip but eventually gals started pushing the envelope. Some would brush their butts against your lap or lean in and brush their boobs against your face. Eventually one girls would start pulling her G aside and grind her bare pussy on a guys lap...then another would let her nipple slip into a guy's mouth...still another would reach down and diddle herself and, of course, eventually some of the more adventurous ladies would allow a guy to quickly slip a finger into her vagina...This club was packed every night, seven nights a week for a couple of years. Beautiful women from all over New England commuted to this tiny little club in in Central Mass. to earn as the money was fantastic for that era.
The same sort of subtle but definite shift in contact was taking place in clubs all over the place but the thing to remember here is that it was all about competing. No state or city ordinances where changed in order to allow contact in strip clubs. A simple decision on what to enforce or not to enforce gets made every day in cities and counties all over the country. It could all stop tomorrow if the local authorities wanted to crack down. Since all healthy business, including strip clubs, contribute to a successful local economy, I don't see anything changing soon.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Yep, there are a lot of threads on this.
There many combinatorial factors.
Yep, those you listed I think many would agree are important factors.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yoda57us
The old combat zone clubs in Boston had a hardcore drink hustle. The girls would sit with you and rub your leg under the table for as long as you kept buying them $20 watered-down champagne cocktail
It's your third leg they're rubbing nowadays.
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Re: An actual, serious question
i just don't understand why dancers can't compete with conversation/entertainment/stage performance/dances
WITHOUT much contact.
like, when did none of that become worth spending money on? it's not like "everyone can do it". in fact, i swear my dances are better now that i don't do high contact...
but tell that to the guy trying to force my ass/leg/whatever onto his shaft.
*sigh*
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Re: An actual, serious question
It's fairly obvious you're not a guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pretty_Penny
i just don't understand why dancers can't compete with conversation/entertainment/stage performance/dances
WITHOUT much contact.
like, when did none of that become worth spending money on? it's not like "everyone can do it". in fact, i swear my dances are better now that i don't do high contact...
but tell that to the guy trying to force my ass/leg/whatever onto his shaft.
*sigh*
For most guys, contact trumps everything.
All of "conversation/entertainment/stage performance/dances" for them is about
the promise/possibility/simulation of contact. Actual contact, even if less competently
delivered, is better.
This still doesn't excuse the rudeness you've experienced.
What it comes down to is that if more contact is available for the same price, it
will tend to draw the dollars.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Over the years the business went from entertainment to sex.Besides other things,I personally think it's the internet that contributed to this change mostly.
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Re: An actual, serious question
I remember finding an issue of Penthouse in my brother's room years ago (late 80's?) that had pictures of "Texas style" lap dances at Ricks in Houston. They had various shots of businessmen looking dumb and happy while gorgeous girls were just all over them. I assumed this is where the phenomenon either started or got popularized and that other clubs decided to follow suit to keep up with the Jonses. This is long before I ever heard of the internet.
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Re: An actual, serious question
LOL so Texas was always dirtier, then!! ^^^
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Re: An actual, serious question
"Don't Mess with Texas"? Maybe it should read "Make a Mess in Texas"?
Sorry Texas.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CherryBomb954
I myself blame MTV and pop culture, the devil that it is, for alot of things.
I would agree whole heartedly. I think MTV, tabloid journalism and pop culture in general are in a huge part responsible for glamorizing stripping to the point where young women who are interested in doing it have no idea what is really involved or how you REALLY make money as a dancer. Extras are, to a large degree, an easy way out for a girl who can't carry on a conversation or can't manage her money well enough to not be desperate to bank on every single shift. The push toward extras is tied in to the never ending supply of clueless young women who show up, house fee in hand, are hired by greedy managers and thrown out on the floor to fend for themselves...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CherryBomb954
It's your third leg they're rubbing nowadays.
Actually that was not unheard of in the early 80's either, though the Combat Zone is pretty much parking garages and office buildings now...
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Re: An actual, serious question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lklucky
only speaking for vegas one thing can explain it; girls became independent contractors and bouncers went from telling guys "hands off" to keeping quiet and leaving the monitoring of the groping to the girls. In las vegas every dancer is required to obtain a business license making her an owner and proprietor of her own business which in this instance is her body so now imagine every girl as a store with the "storefront" being what touching she allows, now imagine each girl or store in competition to deliver more to the customer so that they will get more business than their competitor. When the touching became self regulated instead of none across the board girls began to "up the ante" with touching.
That's not really accurate. We only had to get business liscences in late 2003. We were still Independent Contractors before that.
And also, legally, we are required to stay within the rules of the club. The club is basically allowing us a place to work and for this we pay them a fee. They can still ask us to leave if we violate their rules.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Somebody said that first we reject something, then we tolerate it, and last we embrace it.
So as something becomes more ordinary and loses its naughty thrill, something just a little naughtier will be requested/offered to provide that thrill again.
This leads me to wonder what will be going on in strip clubs twenty years from now. Any futurists want to speculate on that?
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Re: An actual, serious question
It's really just a matter of continuous improvement propogated by the customer.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lklucky
only speaking for vegas one thing can explain it; girls became independent contractors and bouncers went from telling guys "hands off" to keeping quiet and leaving the monitoring of the groping to the girls. In las vegas every dancer is required to obtain a business license making her an owner and proprietor of her own business which in this instance is her body so now imagine every girl as a store with the "storefront" being what touching she allows, now imagine each girl or store in competition to deliver more to the customer so that they will get more business than their competitor. When the touching became self regulated instead of none across the board girls began to "up the ante" with touching.
Lklucky...we've been independent contractors here in NC at my club since I was hired in 1994. That did not seem to affect the way the bouncers handled the no touch policy.
Independent contractor status for entertainers is just a tax dodge for the employer. That's really why it was first introduced to this business. Any advantages it has for us as entertainers is really secondary,and that status is conveniently ignored when it does not suit the club's purposes.
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Re: An actual, serious question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yoda57us
It all comes down to competition weather it be among dancers, clubs, the internet or any other source of titillation. I also started going to clubs in the mid-eighties when there was no touching.
I think the biggest reason for the shift in contact is simple competition between clubs and between dancers. The first time I saw a dancer come off stage and dance in front of a customer for a tip was an eye-opening experience for me. The club in question only allowed the girls to lean in for a tip but eventually gals started pushing the envelope. Some would brush their butts against your lap or lean in and brush their boobs against your face. Eventually one girls would start pulling her G aside and grind her bare pussy on a guys lap...then another would let her nipple slip into a guy's mouth...still another would reach down and diddle herself and, of course, eventually some of the more adventurous ladies would allow a guy to quickly slip a finger into her vagina...This club was packed every night, seven nights a week for a couple of years. Beautiful women from all over New England commuted to this tiny little club in in Central Mass. to earn as the money was fantastic for that era.
The same sort of subtle but definite shift in contact was taking place in clubs all over the place but the thing to remember here is that it was all about competing. No state or city ordinances where changed in order to allow contact in strip clubs. A simple decision on what to enforce or not to enforce gets made every day in cities and counties all over the country. It could all stop tomorrow if the local authorities wanted to crack down. Since all healthy business, including strip clubs, contribute to a successful local economy, I don't see anything changing soon.
Yoda57us is exactly correct. This is ALL about competition.
Rusdancer says above : "Over the years the business went from entertainment to sex." Since it was such a competition between clubs, girls started crossing that fine line between entertainment and sex. Very easy to do, if not enforced by FIRST the clubs, then the law. The clubs were nearsighted and greedy (surprise surprise) and did not see that if they let the line be crossed, eventually they made themselves much more vulnerable to losing the battle against other clubs AND to being shut down by law enforcement. They really just played into the hands of those zealots who want us driven out of the community. I personally think that the owners have only themselves to blame. The rot starts from the top down. If you hire bad VPs and associates and managers, then how can you blame them when they don't have a brain and are corrupt? And so on.
Don't get me wrong, I also vehemenently agree again with Yoda57us; when he says:
"I think MTV, tabloid journalism and pop culture in general are in a huge part responsible for glamorizing stripping to the point where young women who are interested in doing it have no idea what is really involved or how you REALLY make money as a dancer. Extras are, to a large degree, an easy way out for a girl who can't carry on a conversation or can't manage her money well enough to not be desperate to bank on every single shift. The push toward extras is tied in to the never ending supply of clueless young women who show up, house fee in hand, are hired by greedy managers and thrown out on the floor to fend for themselves..."
My SCdj husband an myself are FOREVER and ALWAYS going on about this point. Back to the greedy owners and managers, again.
Bottom line: This business needs to remember that at it's core; it is about ENTERTAINMENT. The sooner that they all remember this, the sooner we can ALL start making money without being groped again.
See, here's the argument against the 'it can't come back from the idea that now, this is the place to get sex/grindage/gropage/etc.' The self-same young girls that Yoda is referencing above are also oftentimes going out to 'regular' nightclubs, which if you have not noticed, have become a lot more 'stripperized'. This whole new culture of strip has encouraged everyone from high school students to housefraus to take up pole and lap dancing. Of course they have no idea what the real business of entertaining is about, so they do imitation lap dances and think they know it all if they can spin a pole in one direction. This also means that a man can go to his local watering hole and see almost as much action as he would in a strip club. I know, I watch it every other week when I take my best friend to our local hot spot with three spinning poles, and more drunk college pussy than you can shake your five inch heels at. Even if a guy doesn't get laid, he will almost certainly be able to grab a lap dance--including grindage. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I've seen it with my own eyes.
This actually plays into our hands beautifully. If the managers and owners start realizing that by providing entertainment and not sex will enable them to 1) Compete and win in their respective markets and 2) NOT get shut down and demonized by local law and politics; then the time to practice the art of 3 minute and 15 second seduction becomes very, very profitable again.
Sorry, everyone. I will stand firm on this point. It is not out of reach, it is NOT unrecoverable, and the money is not gone from the idea of dancing without serious contact!
The responsibility, and weight, is right where it should have always been - the owners and managers. It's time for the grownups to step up to the plate. This kind of business needs to be run by businesspeople; not just some yokel who thinks he can make a buck showing titties and serving beer. Just like everything else, it has become corporatized. This has both advantages and disadvantages. But the best one is to realize that the industry needs to be run as entertainment. It cannot continue to be run on sex; not in this widespread a way, unless the owners are committed to the repeal of anti-prostitution laws across the country and indeed, the world. That is a Herculean task that will probably not happen in our lifetime. So,the most common-sense and the most profitable course of action is to return to entertainment. Vegas has always made it work (in an general entertainment sense, not referring to the SC's specifically).
It's a DUH moment.
Oh, and lest you think I am crazy for suggesting that it cannot continue to be run on sex, I refer you to examples 1) Ohio new laws, and 2) Houston new laws. And it's spreading, as anyone who reads the boards and the news can tell you. Isn't the same guy who is responsible for the draconian laws in Ohio attempting to get the same passed in South Carolina?
The crackdown is already at hand...and the only people we have to blame for it are the greedy, nearsighted owners.