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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flickad
I know. Damn strange. It's not as if murder is a legal right, so it strikes me as odd that murder weapons should be.
Self defense is a legal right.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Ahhh ... sorry about that. I was on the phone when I was reading your post and didn't realize ...
It works out pretty good from my viewpoint. It isn't perfect, but personally I feel that it is better than the alternative.
I don't think it is absolutely necessary for a population to own weapons for there to be peace or anything resembling a civilization ... however, I do find comfort in knowing that the citizens of this country have the option of defending themselves in numerous different scenarios, if they so choose to own a gun.
By the way, those forefathers that you so glibly referred to as 'living in a universe far, far away' seemed to have done a pretty fantastic job at creating a system of government that has lasted through a series of changes that no one could have imagined, much less predicted. So what else in the U.S. constitution do you think is antiquated and unneeded? Anyone that holds your views on owning a weapon to defend yourself, your family, your rights, etc ... must have strong views on other (of our) freedoms as well.
Narcissus
P.S. Since you are from Canada and want to be condescending, I'm forced to ask: how is that health care system working out for you? Also ... where are your elite going to get their health care at, now that America appears to be starting down the same failed road your country traveled?
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Narcissus
Ahhh ... sorry about that. I was on the phone when I was reading your post and didn't realize ...
It works out pretty good from my viewpoint. It isn't perfect, but personally I feel that it is better than the alternative.
I don't think it is absolutely necessary for a population to own weapons for there to be peace or anything resembling a civilization ... however, I do find comfort in knowing that the citizens of this country have the option of defending themselves in numerous different scenarios, if they so choose to own a gun.
By the way, those forefathers that you so glibly referred to as 'living in a universe far, far away' seemed to have done a pretty fantastic job at creating a system of government that has lasted through a series of changes that no one could have imagined, much less predicted. So what else in the U.S. constitution do you think is antiquated and unneeded? Anyone that holds your views on owning a weapon to defend yourself, your family, your rights, etc ... must have strong views on other (of our) freedoms as well.
Narcissus
Some of those guys owned slaves at the time they crafted that constitution. Life was way different back then. Look, I'm not saying it's all bad, it's actually very good...just that maybe the conditions requiring the general citizenry be armed have changed. If you as a citizen are happy with the effects of gun proliferation in your country, then, well, good. Great. Carry on.
Quote:
P.S. Since you are from Canada and want to be condescending, I'm forced to ask: how is that health care system working out for you? Also ... where are your elite going to get their health care at, now that America appears to be starting down the same failed road your country traveled?
Last time I checked, nobody here has a problem with our healthcare. Our "elites" will continue to do what they want, just like yours. But lets stick to the guns, shall we?
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
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Originally Posted by
hockeybobby
Some of those guys owned slaves at the time they crafted that constitution. Life was way different back then. Look, I'm not saying it's all bad, it's actually very good...just that maybe the conditions requiring the general citizenry be armed have changed. If you as a citizen are happy with the effects of gun proliferation in your country, then, well, good. Great. Carry on.
Last time I checked, nobody here has a problem with our healthcare. Our "elites" will continue to do what they want, just like yours. But lets stick to the guns, shall we?
Life was different, I agree. My point was that they were brilliant men who attempted to guard against government totalitarianism in the future. Not a bad idea. :)
Sorry for the low-blow health care comment, I mis-read your intent in the previous post and thought you went from debate mode to attack mode. Hard to tell on forums and my apologies for the mistake.
Anyways, the point is: while I personally dislike guns, I strongly support the right to own them. The right to defend yourself is moot if you are not allowed the right to have the weapons in which to do so.
Narcissus
EDIT: Just noticed your signature ... grats on kicking the habit. Wish I could get enough motivation to do so ...
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
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Originally Posted by
Narcissus
EDIT: Just noticed your signature ... grats on kicking the habit. Wish I could get enough motivation to do so ...
Here's a great website that helped me: http://www.whyquit.com/
Good luck.
/end threadjack
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr Hyde
Self defense is a legal right.
Yes, I know, but guns are far more frequently used in offence than defence.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
A legal right to self defense doesn't necessarily give you carte blanche to arm yourself anyway you choose. How it's worded in our (Canadian) constitution when a "right" must be limited for the greater good is:
"subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society"
Like, for instance, if it is clear that the presence of guns increases the likelihood of homicide to occur, it may be in the greater good to limit the presence of guns. We call it the "Not Withstanding Clause" up here.
You couldn't have Nukes, for instance, for personal protection. Limits are sensible, and justifiable. If too many guns around means too many people gunned down...limit the guns, and you increase society's ability to "self defend" on the whole.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hockeybobby
...I mean, if you really think it's necessary for citizens to be armed in order to keep the peace and have something resembling a civilization, I'd only ask this: how's that working out for ya?
Uh, not too well actually. The US one of the most violent countries in the well-to-do world.
On another topic raised by another, on criminals bringing guns into your home/business... Criminals do NOT know if you are armed, and they probably think you're not because most people are not. Now if you put out a sign saying, "I have a gun and I will use it"...' Well, that is just an invitation for another criminal to sneak in and steal your gun. Seems like the only thing that would work is a live confrontation in which the non-criminal is surprised. Who keeps a shotgun beside them in bed or while watching TV? So to me that argument is very weak.
Besides if your wife finds out you are getting VIPs, she may consider using it on you. :)
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr Hyde
Self defense is a legal right.
This is what I have heard, not being a lawyer but only reading a law book on torts....
Actually you have that right when you are chased down and cannot escape. The courts would rather you try to avoid/escape the situation--the reasonable man argument. If you are in, eg, an attempted mugging and you slug, cut, shoot the perpetrator without attempting to escape, you ae in legal jeopardy. To an extent, if you are confronted in your residence (permanent or temporary) you have a right to disarm/disable the perp. That is, you did until some naive courts decided that you could be sued in a civil court for damages to the perp.
Hoping some lawyer here will clarify this....
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
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Originally Posted by
flickad
And without the gun, it would be much harder to kill.
It wasnt a question of ease.
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flickad
I know. Damn strange. It's not as if murder is a legal right, so it strikes me as odd that murder weapons should be.
You implied that guns should be illegal because murder is.
Many murders are commited using chemicals, blades, bare hands, vehicles, piano wire, bricks, and any number of odd objects.
Yes, guns make it easier.
But that doesnt make it a good idea to just make all firearms illegal.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
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Originally Posted by
Jabba_WTF?
It wasnt a question of ease.
You said:
You implied that guns should be illegal because murder is.
Many murders are commited using chemicals, blades, bare hands, vehicles, piano wire, bricks, and any number of odd objects.
Yes, guns make it easier.
But that doesnt make it a good idea to just make all firearms illegal.
Well, it is a question of ease. A large part of the reason I am against the wide-spread availability of guns is that they facilitate violent attacks via ease and speed.
Is it your contention that violent attacks would be just as likely to turn fatal if all guns magically disappeared off the face of the earth?
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flickad
Well, it is a question of ease. A large part of the reason I am against the wide-spread availability of guns is that they facilitate violent attacks via ease and speed.
Is it your contention that violent attacks would be just as likely to turn fatal if all guns magically disappeared off the face of the earth?
If there were no guns, then a great many attacks would be just as fatal.
It would only take longer.
I can grant you the fact that "impulse" murders would likely drop considerably, but there would still be the planned murders, as well as murders with other weapons.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Aren't most murders committed impulsively, in the heat of some strong emotion?
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
i wont read the entire thread, but someone mentioned that people who cant legally own a gun doesnt need to have one.
i woud like to point out how very false that is.
felons (who are not allowed to own guns) most often live in the most crime ridden cities in America. they are often drug dealers, or snitches, or have killed someone's family.
they are the ones who are most likely to be hunted down, robbed and shot, and are most in need of self defense weapons. they are much more likely to be at gunpoint then a well to do redneck.
not sure what the solution should be for that issue, since I dont think its a good idea to give them guns with their release papers, but just wanted to point it out.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flickad
Aren't most murders committed impulsively, in the heat of some strong emotion?
I can't find the numbers, but strong emotion isn't what makes it an impulse killing.
(Sorry for being a nerd here, but I had to get the definition of impulse.)
Quote:
2. sudden, involuntary inclination prompting to action: to be swayed by impulse.
Impulse murders are no longer in the heat of the moment if the killer has to spend time finding the victim.
Most murders (that I know of) are not quick or instant.
I could be wrong, and if so, then I apologise.
But this is just my own point of view.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
IMO the real problem here is that we can't trust police to protect us.
Root issue ahoy!
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
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Originally Posted by
LizardQueen
IMO the real problem here is that we can't trust police to protect us.
Root issue ahoy!
No, no.
There'll be no getting to the bottom of this.
This is all about surface issues.
KTHX.:D
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
look, we can debate the NEED for guns all we want, the the point is: the constitution gives us the right to bare arms. That being said, if we want them, we should be allowed to have them unless our personal right has been taken away due to punishment or mental incapability.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
What I'm saying is that violence begets violence, and Americans have a unique hyper-vigilantism compared to other developed nations. Statistically, we have reason to be so afraid considering our astronomically high homicide rates. However, there has got to be some underlying issue whether it be cultural, infrastructural, or otherwise that is preventing us from being able to feel at peace.
I mean, it would be less disturbing if the pro-gun people here kept bringing up how fun hunting is, or how much they love participating in gun shows instead of continually citing paranoia as their #1 reason to maintain and/or expand gun rights.
And yes, the Constitution does ensure the right to bear arms, but unfortunately with an excessively vague wording that leaves a bit too much room for interpretation. And I'm pretty sure our founding fathers never dreamed of AK-47s or M-16s when they wrote that part of the constitution. ;)
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
are gun ppl proposing we be allwed ak-47 and m-16???
That is not a rhetorical question. Im serious. Cuz I was not aware of it.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
^^^
As of April 2008:
http://www.cjonline.com/stories/0422...70889198.shtml
"Kansas dealers and private citizens can own automatic weapons, silencers and short-barrel shotguns after July 1. Gov. Kathleen Sebelius on Monday signed a law legalizing possession of such weapons."
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
hmm thats interesting. Although I dont see any need for that sort of crap, collectors and stuff may just want them. I dont know. People collect all kinds of things that I wouldnt want ... like troll dolls.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kikidejavu
i wont read the entire thread, but someone mentioned that people who cant legally own a gun doesnt need to have one.
i woud like to point out how very false that is.
felons (who are not allowed to own guns) most often live in the most crime ridden cities in America. they are often drug dealers, or snitches, or have killed someone's family.
they are the ones who are most likely to be hunted down, robbed and shot, and are most in need of self defense weapons. they are much more likely to be at gunpoint then a well to do redneck.
not sure what the solution should be for that issue, since I dont think its a good idea to give them guns with their release papers, but just wanted to point it out.
That is about the most socially-convoluted argument I've ever heard about weapons. You think felons should be allowed to have guns so they can live in the ghettos and shoot it out with other criminals. I'd say OK if only other violent criminals lived ther and we could somehow isolate the communities, which we cannot. Short of that, it's like adding gasoline to the house fire to cool it down.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lady
hmm thats interesting. Although I dont see any need for that sort of crap, collectors and stuff may just want them. I dont know. People collect all kinds of things that I wouldnt want ... like troll dolls.
Automatic weapons and troll dolls are very different beasts.
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Re: You knew this was going to be a result of Obama getting elected
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Originally Posted by
flickad
Automatic weapons and troll dolls are very different beasts.
Maybe, but they are still beasts.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7...rollyk7.th.jpghttp://img236.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif