-
UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
650 dissenting scientists to be precise ...
(snip)"POZNAN, Poland - The UN global warming conference currently underway in Poland is about to face a serious challenge from over 650 dissenting scientists from around the globe who are criticizing the climate claims made by the UN IPCC and former Vice President Al Gore. Set for release this week, a newly updated U.S. Senate Minority Report features the dissenting voices of over 650 international scientists, many current and former UN IPCC scientists, who have now turned against the UN. The report has added about 250 scientists (and growing) in 2008 to the over 400 scientists who spoke out in 2007. The over 650 dissenting scientists are more than 12 times the number of UN scientists (52) who authored the media hyped IPCC 2007 Summary for Policymakers.
The U.S. Senate report is the latest evidence of the growing groundswell of scientific opposition rising to challenge the UN and Gore"(snip)
Keep in mind that Barack Obama has expressed support for enacting a new tax equal to 0.7% of America's annual GDP to fund the UN's proposed program. This new tax will be on the order of $65-70 billion per year and will likely be collected via a tax on 'carbon emissions' ( i.e. remember 'bankrupting the coal companies' ). That translates into about $2500 per US taxpayer.
One of my favorite 'dissenting' scientists points out the following ...
OOPS, we forgot Siberia !!!
(snip)"The thing that these skewed charts never take into account is the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990. This brought the number of reporting weather stations around the world down from a high of 15,000 in 1970 to 5,000 in 2000. This takes some of the coldest places on the planet out of the equation, like Siberia."(snip)
http://www.m4gw.com:2005/m4gw/06.13....balairtemp.jpg
~
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
and the new European Union president calls global warming remediation issues an 'expensive luxury' ...
(snip)"Czech president hits at EU climate deal
PRAGUE, Dec 12 (AFP) Dec 12, 2008
Czech President Vaclav Klaus hit out at the EU climate deal concluded Friday and described global climate issues as "a silly luxury."
"I do not like the way they forced it", Klaus said shortly after an agreement was announced in Brussels.
He also claimed that his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy had "pushed" the deal so that it would not be left when the Czech Republic takes over the EU presidency from France on January 1.
"This is scandalous," he said. "We should have been able to discuss it during our presidency, to force it now is not very good."
"Environmental issues are a luxury good," Klaus added. "Now we have to tighten our belt and to cut the luxury."
Global climate issues "are a silly luxury good," he repeated.
Czech environmentalists had expressed fears that an EU agreement on how to tackle global warming would never have been concluded during the six-month Czech presidency of the bloc because of Klaus's views."(snip)
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Interesting. Paying attention to our air, water, soil, and climate are luxuries we can't afford? I guess now that we are in a worldwide recession, we will be hearing more opinions like this. Personally, I think the environment could be a source of a lot of jobs with some government leadership.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hockeybobby
Interesting. Paying attention to our air, water, soil, and climate are luxuries we can't afford?
Finding the air, water, soil and climate to be necessities or not apparently depends on a person political leanings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hockeybobby
Personally, I think the environment could be a source of a lot of jobs with some government leadership.
Agreed and thankfully in a little over a month we will have a Liberal leadership in the US ( I have heard rumblings about Canada wanting to give Harper the boot too) and then progress can be made again on things like jobs, the environment and the economy.
Plus with less and less politically conservative minded people on the planet all the time there is light at the end of this dark tunnel to hell right-wingers have been leading us all down. Some of us kicking and screaming but being dragged down nonetheless. Those days are about to be over. For awhile anyway and hopefully for good.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Unfortunately, at this moment, Canada is the leading recipient of the "Fossil-of-the-day" award at the current United Nations Climate Change negotiations taking place in Poznan, Poland:
http://www.fossil-of-the-day.org/go/
Since the Conservatives took over a couple of years ago, we pretty much got into lock-step with the US positions.
But there is political turmoil here at the moment, and possibly another election looming in the new year. I'd post a link or two about the politics, but really, nobody down there cares LOL.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
well you will soon be 'paying the price' for this gov't spending ...
(snip)"Treasury Studying ‘Novel Approaches’ to Sell Debt (Update2)
Email | Print | A A A
By John Brinsley and Dakin Campbell
Dec. 10 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S may introduce new financing methods to sell a record amount of debt needed to pay for as much as $2 trillion in borrowing needs this year, Treasury’s debt-management chief said.
“Treasury needs to be prepared to meet additional financing needs if necessary,” Treasury Assistant Secretary Karthik Ramanathan said in a speech today in New York. “This challenge may require novel approaches to debt management.”
Ramanthan said public spending and a slowing economy will require “conventional” ways to raise money -- increasing the size and frequency of debt issuance, selling cash-management bills when short-term funds run low and reintroducing securities when necessary. He said debt sales may occur “in a short period of time.”
“There is plenty of uncertainty and risk that they need to borrow more,” said Michael Pond, an interest-rate strategist in New York at Barclays Capital Inc., one of 17 firms required to bid at government auctions. “They are trying to prepare the market for any potential changes down the road.”
Ramanthan said the introduction of a new seven-year note and the additional issuance of existing 30-year bonds has been suggested as ways to increase debt sales to close a federal deficit in fiscal 2009 expected to reach a record, according to Wall Street economists. He cited private analysts’ estimates of borrowing needs that may reach $1.5 trillion to $2 trillion in the financial year that ends in September 2009.
Market Catalyst
“The fact that Ramanthan was on the tape with the seven- year and the 30-year is significant,” said George Goncalves, chief Treasury and agency strategist with Morgan Stanley, another primary dealer. “There is going to be a need to flesh out the curve in order to raise the cash that’s needed.”
The government has pledged $700 billion for a financial- system rescue plan and another $800 billion to buy mortgage- backed securities and other debt backed by consumer loans to soften the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Financial firms have now lost nearly $1 trillion related to soured subprime mortgages.
“The growth of Treasury and government-guaranteed debt will act as a catalyst for the return of smooth functioning credit markets and economic recovery, both of which will gain momentum as risk appetite returns,” Ramanathan said.
The budget deficit swelled to $164.4 billion last month, the Treasury Department reported separately, the second straight month it widened. It was $98.2 billion last November.
“Novel” Approaches
Treasuries have returned 11.9 percent in 2008, their best year since 2000, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. indexes. During that time, the three-month bill rate declined zero percent from 3.24 percent, while the yield on the benchmark 10- year note fell to 2.69 percent from 4.02 percent as the meltdown of the mortgage market pushed the U.S. into recession.
In calling for the consideration of “novel” approaches, Ramanthan fueled speculation about how the government may look to fund the budget and the financial-system rescue.
The Treasury may introduce a 50-year bond, though it’s not expected, while the Fed may issue bills or bill-like securities and use the proceeds to buy longer-term Treasuries, Pond said.
“You just never know what they are going to do,” Pond said. “I wouldn’t rule anything out.” (snip)
from
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
^^^ Bobby, Americans DO care !!! After all US taxpayers will soon be bailing out your CANADIAN auto workers.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
and the new European Union president calls global warming remediation issues an 'expensive luxury' ...
Here are some interesting points of fact on Václav Klaus:
On 30th November 2008, the Czech Education Minister Ondřej Liška stated that he would attempt to open up discussions on the possible impeachment of the Czech president on the grounds that Václav Klaus is purportedly undermining the foreign policy of his country by publicly campaigning against the Lisbon Treaty.
Klaus was elected President of the Czech Republic by secret ballot of the parliament. He won with a narrow majority of 142 votes out of 281, with, notably, support of the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia.
Klaus received the 2007 Pushkin Medal for the promotion of Russian culture from Putin
Klaus has reversed Havel's policy of avoiding many countries like China. His first major visit was to Russia and in 2006 he hosted Vladimir Putin in a style which was described by some pundits as "borderline-sycophancy"
He disagrees with all criticisms of recent developments in Russia.
he described the bill as being "dangerous", a threat to the fabric of Czech society and representing militant "homosexualism."
His veto was overturned by the Parliament in March 2006, thus making the Czech Republic the first post-communist country to grant legal recognition to same-sex partnerships.
He also vetoed the Anti-Discrimination Law passed by parliament in 2008.
So we have a guy who was elected by secret ballot. Receives and gives large support to and from communist in his country. He thinks Putin and Russia can do no wrong. Plus he is a bigot and even tried to create or destroy laws based on his personal bigotry.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hockeybobby
Unfortunately, at this moment, Canada is the leading recipient of the "Fossil-of-the-day" award at the current United Nations Climate Change negotiations taking place in Poznan, Poland:
Since the Conservatives took over a couple of years ago, we pretty much got into lock-step with the US positions.
But there is political turmoil here at the moment, and possibly another election looming in the new year. I'd post a link or two about the politics, but really, nobody down there cares LOL.
Post em or pm em because I care!
I know conservatives up there have been causing havoc but I also know that is making many of you angry and that the' kick the bums out' drum is beating up there loud and clear. I have faith that good will prevail over evil soon and current conservative leadership in Canada will be short lived.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
^^^ Bobby, Americans DO care !!! After all US taxpayers will soon be bailing out your CANADIAN auto workers.
Hey! We're prepared to kick in our pro-rated fair share:
Ottawa pledges billions to avert auto meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lucy in the Sky
Post em or pm em because I care!
I know conservatives up there have been causing havoc but I also know that is making many of you angry and that the' kick the bums out' drum is beating up there loud and clear. I have faith that good will prevail over evil soon and current conservative leadership in Canada will be short lived.
Except...if elections were held today (they can't be), Harper would win a majority government (yikes!).
Harper tories keep big lead in polls
Here's one of our Comedians busting on our politicians (The video that comes up "space agency" is funny, but not the one I'm referring to. You have to click the little video picture on the list at the right, 5th one down called "Rick's Rant"...it's priceless):
http://www.cbc.ca/mercerreport/video.html
And the same guy's column in one of our National newspapers:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../politics/home
We've just now got a new opposition leader in a lightning quick process, without a convention, and with parliament shut down till January 26th.
The new guy:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/553341
That'll bring you up to speed on the happenings here!
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Thanks for the links, Hockeybobby. They did put me a little more up to date.
As for support for Harper, try not to worry too much. Even the majority of Americans finally woke up and smelled the coffee in regards to Bush and his ilk. A little late but it happened none the less so don't lose hope!
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lucy in the Sky
Finding the air, water, soil and climate to be necessities or not apparently depends on a person political leanings.
Agreed and thankfully in a little over a month we will have a Liberal leadership in the US ( I have heard rumblings about Canada wanting to give Harper the boot too) and then progress can be made again on things like jobs, the environment and the economy.
Plus with less and less politically conservative minded people on the planet all the time there is light at the end of this dark tunnel to hell right-wingers have been leading us all down. Some of us kicking and screaming but being dragged down nonetheless. Those days are about to be over. For awhile anyway and hopefully for good.
Toxic sludge and smog-filled air is good for you, you should try it sometime...
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
^^^ if you live in California, you're absolutely right ! Despite the fact that California has the strictest environmental regulations in the USA, and the highest environmental compliance costs imposed on California businesses ...
(snip)"But China is also an environmental time bomb. Its polluted air is not only choking its citizens but also spreading 6,000 miles across the Pacific, giving Californians - even those with no other ties to China - a personal stake in that country’s exploding environmental crisis.
Microscopic soot particles belched from coal-fired plants across the ocean are settling in Sierra Nevada snowpacks. Low levels of mercury from those plants are showing up in soil and water. And dust from expanding deserts in China and elsewhere in Asia can be found in the air high above the state."(snip)
(snip)"Much of the year, Asian pollution - including soot, ash and dust from farms, factories and coal-fired power plants - hovers high above the Golden State and is, on average, equal to a quarter of the state’s legally allowed concentrations of these particles, said Richard “Tony” VanCuren, a researcher with the California Air Resources Board. "(snip)
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
If you want other countries to act responsibly you've got to set the example. It's no use preaching to them. California is doing the right thing, and China's devastation of their own environment doesn't change that.
What should we all do? Throw our hands up in the air and give up?
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
What should we all do? Throw our hands up in the air and give up?
this is of course the bottom line. As it currently stands the good intentions of the Kyoto treaty are essentially meaningless on a global basis because the treaty allowed China and other 'developing countries' to exempt themselves (and thus their industries) from compliance (and thus the costs of compliance). As is amply demonstrated by the California example, the primary result was NOT a reduction in global pollution but merely the relocation of pollution sources ... along with the relocation of industries and jobs that accompany industrial pollution. And even that situation might have been considered to be a worthwhile trade-off if it weren't for the fact that the relocated pollution is still finding its way right back across the Pacific ocean thanks to the trade winds ... which in California's case means that the industries are gone and the jobs are gone but the pollution (or some fraction of it) still remains !
Unless and until the 'loopholes' are closed, good intentions are not going to achieve positive results on a global level. But hey it makes some people feel good thinking that they have done the right thing by 'cleaning up their own back yard' ... despite the fact that they have also cost their neighbor his job and have allowed an even larger mountain of garbage to grow just beyond the 'city limits'.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Unfortunately because of the penchant capitalists have for money, over social and environmental responsibilities, it would seem that only financial penalties would have any effect. How those penalties are structured and administered ultimately would determine their effectiveness. Carbon exchanges would be a way to do this if only it could be enforced by monitoring ethically. But ethics is a very costly commodity in capitalism.
I know a lot of people believe that the effluents of humans could not possibly have any effect on such a huge planet. They believe what they want because they want to continue to exploit it as much as or more than they have, since that put them in the fortunate financial position they are in now. Yes, taking responsibility for one's trash has some consequences, but living in a stinky, polluted, steamy, waterworld will have consequences too.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Mel: Just to be clear...China pollutes, therefore the US (and Canada for that matter) should pollute?
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Considering it is the United States who is the number one cause of problems related to global warming it is absolutely ridiculous and insanely hypocritical to point the finger of blame at China.
It will remain ridiculous and hypocritical until we clean up our own act. The good news is now that Dems will be running the show soon we actually have a chance to start that process.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
^^^ if in manufacturing the same products Chinese factories now produce 10 times as much pollution as the previous US and Canadian factories used to emit making those products (before the US and Canadian companies closed their factories and outsourced to the Chinese factories), then yes I would prefer retaining the 1/10th as much former pollution as China is now generating, in conjunction with retaining the former US and Canadian manufacturing jobs.
This is the inherent flaw in attempting to enact environmental regulations in a vacuum. Let's take a specific example i.e. a pair of blue jeans. When they were still made in the US and Canada, each pair of jeans produced say 1 gallon of polluted water with basic inexpensive pollution abatement equipment that costs $1 per pair of jeans to operate. The US and Canadian gov'ts, in a well intentioned but myopic move, enacted regulations that allowed a maximum of 0.1 gallon of polluted water per pair of blue jeans produced ... but which would require the jean manufacturer to spend an additional $5 per pair of jeans to achieve using exotic pollution abatement equipment. On the other hand, if produced in China, creating 10 gallons of polluted water while not employing ANY pollution abatement equipment is perfectly acceptable ... and adds zero costs for pollution abatement to the cost of the Chinese jeans compared to the $1 in environmental costs that previously existed under older pollution laws and the $5 in environmental cost that would be required if the jean manufacturer wished to continue producing jeans in US or Canadian plants under new and stricter pollution laws.
Quote:
It will remain a ridiculous and hypocritical until we clean up our own act
in terms of manufacturing pollution, the US already had the 'cleanest act' in the world. And the US 'act' continues to get 'cleaner and cleaner' as more and more US manufacturing closes down.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
So to simplify your response to his question is it fair to say that your answer is yes?
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
in terms of manufacturing pollution, the US already had the 'cleanest act' in the world. And the US 'act' continues to get 'cleaner and cleaner' as more and more US manufacturing closes down.
While I don't know off hand if your claim is true or not and since I find your info to be beyond biased more often than not I tend to just think it less than accurate. And no I don't care to see your source right now because for the purpose of this topic I was speaking in terms of total CO2, not just from one area such as manufacturing. The United States emits more carbon dioxide than China, India and Japan, COMBINED!
Now I DO agree that China is a problem but being that the U.S is the biggest problem it only makes sense to start fixing things here prior to blaming China- even if for no other reason than we can't make changes for them BUT we can makes changes here.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
this is of course the bottom line. As it currently stands the good intentions of the Kyoto treaty are essentially meaningless on a global basis because the treaty allowed China and other 'developing countries' to exempt themselves (and thus their industries) from compliance (and thus the costs of compliance). As is amply demonstrated by the California example, the primary result was NOT a reduction in global pollution but merely the relocation of pollution sources ... along with the relocation of industries and jobs that accompany industrial pollution. And even that situation might have been considered to be a worthwhile trade-off if it weren't for the fact that the relocated pollution is still finding its way right back across the Pacific ocean thanks to the trade winds ... which in California's case means that the industries are gone and the jobs are gone but the pollution (or some fraction of it) still remains !
Unless and until the 'loopholes' are closed, good intentions are not going to achieve positive results on a global level. But hey it makes some people feel good thinking that they have done the right thing by 'cleaning up their own back yard' ... despite the fact that they have also cost their neighbor his job and have allowed an even larger mountain of garbage to grow just beyond the 'city limits'.
The leading causes of air pollution in the US are trucks and automobiles and electric power plants. The US cannot import electricity from China, so requiring power plants to reduce their pollution will not cause them to relocate to China. The US government has complete control over how much pollution trucks and automobiles sold in the US are allowed to emit, regardless of where they are produced.
China is changing from a primarily agricultural economy to a primary industrial economy so no matter what you do, pollution is going to increase in China. On a per-capita basis, the United States still pollutes far more than China.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
in terms of manufacturing pollution, the US already had the 'cleanest act' in the world. And the US 'act' continues to get 'cleaner and cleaner' as more and more US manufacturing closes down.
No we don't. Far from it. Most of our manufacturers get their electricity from coal-burning plants, which is a leading cause of pollution. In France, all manufacturers get their electricity from nuclear power plants, which doesn't give off any pollution.
On a per-capita basis, the United States pollutes more than any other country, far more than China.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
To be competitive in an unfair, unintelligent market, yes. But if we regressed to that industrial state we, the world, would never have any incentive to reduce pollution. And that would be tragic.
We need to develop incentives to reduce pollution and CO2 on a somewhat equal playing field. Then technology could be developed and marketed to those that were not able to develop it on their own. It would be another big market. Capitalists alone will never give us that because their hearts are all green, as in money and algae-covered lakes. What we need I guess is a KLAATU.
-
Re: UN meets to plan 'global warming tax' ... a few scientists dissent
to paraphrase a famous quote...
' and that is part of a dangerous notion '
... that Carbon Dioxide is an equally dangerous 'air pollutant' . Granted that the US supreme court has issued an opinion to that effect. However, if one looks at serious pollutants, i.e. mercury, sulfur, lead, and a host of other noxious chemicals, American industry has FAR lower emissions than China.
I'm in total agreement about increased use of nuclear power in America. You'll have to talk to the environmental lobby / attorneys as to why a new nuclear plant hasn't been built in America in the past 25 years.
And yes China can 'export' the cost difference between their unscrubbed coal fired electricity and America's natural gas fired electricity as an embedded cost savings in every product that requires large amounts of electrical energy to produce i.e. steel, copper, glass, chemicals etc. as well as applicances and machinery which use large amounts of energy intensive raw materials.