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NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
it seems that this topic of occasional discussion has finally gotten some serious study !
(snip)"The four-year college degree has come to cost too much and prove too little. It's now a bad deal for the average student, family, employer, professor and taxpayer.
A student who secures a degree is increasingly unlikely to make up its cost, despite higher pay, and the employer who requires a degree puts faith in a system whose standards are slipping. Too many professors who are bound to degree teaching can't truly profess; they don't proclaim loudly the things they know but instead whisper them to a chosen few, whom they must then accommodate with inflated grades. Worst of all, bright citizens spend their lives not knowing the things they ought to know, because they've been granted liberal-arts degrees for something far short of a liberal-arts education.
I'm not arguing against higher learning but for it -- and against the degree system that stands in its way.
STARTING OUT BEHIND
Consider two childhood friends, Ernie and Bill. Hard workers with helpful families, each saves exactly $16,594 for college. Ernie doesn't get accepted to a school he likes. Instead, he starts work at 18 and invests his college savings in a mutual fund that tracks the broad stock market.
Throughout his life, he makes average yearly pay for a high school graduate with no college, starting at $15,901 after taxes and peaking at $32,538. Each month, he adds to his stock fund 5% of his after-tax income, close to the nation's current savings rate. It returns 8% a year, typical for stock investors.
Bill has a typical college experience. He gets into a public college and after two years transfers to a private one. He spends $49,286 on tuition and required fees, the average for such a track. I'm not counting room and board, since Bill must pay for his keep whether he goes to college or not. Bill gets average-size grants, adjusted for average probabilities of receiving them, and so pays $34,044 for college.
He leaves school with an average-size student loan and a good interest rate: $17,450 at 5%. The $16,594 he has saved for college, you see, is precisely enough to pay what his loans don't cover.
Bill will have higher pay than Ernie his whole life, starting at $23,505 after taxes and peaking at $56,808. Like Ernie, he sets aside 5%. At that rate, it will take him 12 years to pay off his loan. Debt-free at 34, he starts adding to the same index fund as Ernie, making bigger monthly contributions with his higher pay. But when the two reunite at 65 for a retirement party, Ernie will have grown his savings to nearly $1.3 million. Bill will have less than a third of that."(snip)
much, much more at
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Is your article saying that an expensive college education for a degree which is nebulous (such as art history or liberal arts) is not worth the investment compared to a high school educated person who invests wisely (and theoretically)?
Compare that to a college education in a moderately expensive institution in, say, mechanical engineering or business admin. verses and average high school educated person who invests in an average method.
The article's comparison was chosen to NOT show an advantage. It is certainly possible not to get much advantage out of a college education.
However, actually several scenarios should have been evaluated, so that the article would actually be Meaningful.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Nice example, but I have a couple of observations.
1. The average student does not transfer from a public university to a private college in mid-course. That raises the cost of a college education far beyond the additional tuition. Additional classes are often required because of lack of transferability. If the example used a four year public tuition, then that would trim off a lot of the cost of college.
2. The college graduate making more money each year, has an easier time of saving 5% of her after tax income. A certain amount, not percentage, of income is required for basic survival. The same regardless of educational attainment. That fixed amount though is a larger percentage of the lower income earners total income, leaving less "disposable" income for saving.
Actual savings and retirement studies show that college graduates tend to retire with more money than those who did not attend college at all.
Z
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
A woman with no education is almost always dependent on a man.
Strippers are the exception, of course.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
If a high school educated worker has the smarts to invest, then an equivalent college-educated person has that also.
Basically a college education is an investment in oneself. And that's the most controllable investment a person can make. It certainly avoids the flim-flams of the 'market' which are many. Given that both people in the comparison can make investments, the college-educated one, realizing that education IS an investment, will make a wise choice of majors and employment. S/he will then receive higher pay; will pay off any college loans (a point of departure for the comparison) and also have funds left over, at least in time as their pay-scale rises, to also invest; and probably be able to invest more because of the higher salary.
Not withstanding any brainstorms from a high school educated enterpreneur (an outlier like Steve Jobs etc), the better-educated one will command a higher salary because a stonger education allows her/him to be more valuable on the job than a similar person without that education. Another thing, there are fewer of them with that in-demand ability.
Again an education is an investment. Choose it wisely.
<You think education is expensive? Try ignorance.>
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LuvlyDancer
A woman with no education is almost always dependent on a man.
Strippers are the exception, of course.
Yes. Why don't people just realize that?
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LuvlyDancer
A woman with no education is almost always dependent on a man.
Strippers are the exception, of course.
For a moment in time. Like many on this board, when there is money, there should be some education going on.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
I know that this is a difficult paradigm to see beyond ... however, consider this point about 'low cost' college degrees (from the same link).
(snip)"Students want jobs and respect. Degrees bring both. Employers, meanwhile, want smart, capable workers. A degree is a decent enough proxy for intelligence, but we want it to be more than that. We want degrees to mean that students have learned the foundations of human knowledge: literature, chemistry, physics, composition, metaphysics, psychology, economics and so on. If we didn't, we'd replace degrees with inexpensive vocational exams.
Charles Murray, a fellow at American Enterprise Institute, calls for just that in a recent book, "Real Education." He argues that too many kids who lack the ability to complete a liberal-arts education are being pushed into four-year liberal-arts schools, because there's a steep societal penalty for not getting a degree. Schools, in turn, have made their degree programs easier. Murray provides a sample of courses that students used to fulfill core degree requirements at major universities in 2004, including History of Comic Book Art (Indiana University), History and Philosophy of Dress (Texas Tech University) and Campus Culture and Drinking (Duke University). He documents not only falling standards but rampant grade inflation.
He's not alone. In 2005, the Department of Education created a commission to study the college system and recommend reforms. A year later, the Spellings Commission (named for then-Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings) reported a long list of shortcomings, including "a remarkable absence of accountability mechanisms to ensure that colleges succeed in educating students." It found "disturbing signs" that degree earners "have not actually mastered the reading, writing and thinking skills we expect of college graduates." Literacy levels among college graduates, the commission noted, fell sharply over the 12 years ending in 2003."(snip)
in other words, potential employers are now recognizing that many degrees obtained from 'low cost' state subsidized universities are NOT the equal of degrees obtained from 'high cost' private universities. This is the arguable result of 'diversity' policies reducing the academic talent pool of new students, of public university 'civil service' hiring practices which often results in 'less than ideal' professors, of politically driven 'grade inflation' etc. This is beginning to translate into a two tier system, where holders of degrees from state subsidized universities may not be afforded anywhere near the same job opportunities / pay scales as private university graduates in the future. And this will particularly be the case if economic recovery is slow ( or never happens ) - leaving employers with a surplus pool of college graduates from which they can pick and choose to fill any vacancies.
However, the larger point being made is that going the full time college route involves many direct and indirect costs, whereas bypassing full time college attendance results in immediate income. The typical college graduate passes up 4 years worth of income which the high school graduate worker earns / saves / invests. The typical college graduate typically carries a significant amount of student loan debt, thus interest and principal payments 'subtract' from his post-graduation earnings for the next 10-15 years ( thus often reducing the 'net' annual earnings of the college graduate down to or below the level of the high school graduate for those 10-15 years). And where the typical college graduate is finally able to start saving / investing a significant amount of money at age 35-40, the high school graduate of the same age has already been saving / investing / receiving compound interest for 15-20 years. Certainly, from age 35-40 through to retirement age, the college graduate's higher income (in the absence of student loan payments) will 'whittle down' the deficit of savings / investments. However, with increasingly progressive income tax rates etc. the 'net' difference in annual earnings between the college graduate and high school graduate won't be anywhere near as large as the 'gross' difference in earnings.
Ultimately, a time value of money equation is formed. The author's point is that, in light of recent economic developments, that time value of money equation no longer automatically favors the college graduate. Do the math ! Yes there are 'societal penalties' for not obtaining a college degree, but this isn't the same as cold hard economic analysis.
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Actual savings and retirement studies show that college graduates tend to retire with more money than those who did not attend college at all.
This is undoubtedly true. However, this is also the result of economic conditions existing over the past 40 years which are now changing in a big way ! What matters will be the economic / employment opportunity / income tax conditions that will apply for the NEXT 40 years. In essence, your point is analogous to pointing out 40 years worth of past real estate price increases as reason to invest in a new house today, without acknowledging that real estate economic conditions have changed drastically in the last few years.
~
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
The only reason to get an old-fashioned 'Liberal Arts' degree is if you want an education. Which certainly does have value, but it might not make you more money.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Don't you think that those kinds of courses or fields of study are POOR investments of time and money? I think that article is over-rationalized and sensationalized to sell copy. Anyone going to college knows ther are many great and useful courses that are excellent investments. There are also useless, meaingless, time-wasting courses too.
When its time to go to college, high school is over. It's time to get to work on one's life. Play in summer when courses are over. These little vanity course, designed perhaps to get non-serious kids closer to a degree are NOT going to be useful in their lives. Do what makes you proud to be a graduate.
I've never had a problem showing my trancript as a prerequisite for a further degree, to get jobs, or to sign up for tutoring students. The more difficult the field, the more impressed people are going to be when evaluating you for jobs. That's the kind of investment I'm talking about.
No wimpy courses. Work it.
I would never disrespect myself or anyone helping me financially by sloughing off and partying. Besides interviewing for jobs, this is the most serious you'll have to be for preparing for your life's work and income.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
The NY Post is well known for it's sports and gossip pages, and sensationalism. Leaving that aside for a moment, I have a few personal observations on the subject.
First, I think some women on Stripperweb are hostile towards education and educated women and I think that's sad. ...However it is also unsurprising considering the superior attitude both here and in the dressing room of dancers who are in college etc. A thread like this, which is a kick in the face to women trying to get an education, is to be expected.
Women tend to shit on each other in the worst of times (and the best of times), I'm not sure why that is.
Now lets get down to it: first, a college degree is not the same as a liberal arts degree. Liberal Arts is the refuge of people who weren't smart enough to pick a money-maker as a career (sorry just my opinion).
By having no education you are crossing off the most stimulating careers out there:
doctor, pilot, lawyer, finance executive, geologist, astronaut, environmentalist, helicopter pilot, fire fighter, artic/amazon explorer, microbiologist, geologist, veterinarian, most FBI agents, etc etc etc
No college education? You want to know what the market says about your career?
Go work at Dillards down at the mall !! Sell pretzels in the food court. This isn't 1985, you can't go work for GM now.
Sure there are dream jobs like video-game tester and scuba instructor but these are anecdotal, like becoming a movie star etc. You can get by with stripping... but that won't be a bed of roses, nor will it pay like it did when Melonie was dancing.
With dancing for life, your exposure surges for problems like trumped up criminal charges, physical demands of stripping, sudden job loss with no severance and no unemployment insurance, injuries at work that cannot be insured against, lack of workers compensation in those situations, as well as exposure to second hand smoke, potential loss of income for women during pregnancy and child-rearing, possible future detriment to the stripper-mother if she gets into a custody dispute... a secure career affords so many benefits when you just don't have to worry about this shit... and it requires and education.
I find the likelihood of an uneducated woman faring better than any of the college-educated professional ladies listed above unlikely.
Stay in school.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
The problem with college is that it stifles creativity and entrepeneurship (and wastes four years of valuable business development and income-producing years)... People get brainwashed into thinking that the only way to succeed financially is by studying hard, getting a college degree, and then landing a corporate job...
I followed this path and went to college and then law school. I make a decent six-digit salary, so I can't complain... But, I've had clients who never completed college and make a lot more money than I do... They are entrepeneurs that forged their own path... They have construction, janitorial, manufacturing, retail and other businesses... If you read "Start Small, Finish Big: 15 Key Lessons to Start--and Run--Your Own Successful Business" by Fred DeLuca (who started the Subway franchise) you'll learn about people without college degrees that started small businesses that grew exponentially and made them millionaires... Of course, some businesses fail, but you just file a Chapter 7 and start all over again... That's the beauty of this country's bankruptcy laws... The next time you fail, you file a Chapter 11 or 13 and start all over again... then, its back to Chapter 7... until, you strike it rich... Just about any successful entrepeneur has been through at least one bankruptcy.
All in all, I'm in favor of a college education, but not for the sake of landing a traditional job... Even before you start college, you should already have started your own business and you should continue to develop it while in college... Your college education should not be for the sake of getting a degree, but for the sake of learning how to manage your business... marketing, finance, accounting, business law, even psychology, to learn to motivate your "team", etc...
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
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No wimpy courses. Work it.
This is of course the root of the problem with a growing number of 'public' colleges. Either in fact or in perception, the scope of course material and grading standards applied by 'public' colleges are judged to be inferior to those of 'private' colleges by potential future employers.
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I think some women on Stripperweb are hostile towards education and educated women and I think that's sad. ...
Not wanting to cause controversy, but that is a bit of a reach. For example, before I became a 'serious' full time dancer I had already obtained a college degree and was licensed as a respiratory therapist in NY and NJ. I wound up working at least 50-60 hours per week whether I wanted to or not. Yes the hourly pay was very decent by 'general wage' standards ( something like $25-$35 per hour depending on the hospital and the shift - and this was in the 90's)... however with limited potential for tax write-offs I was lucky to actually keep 2/3rds of my gross earnings. Convenience expenses then ate up too large of a chunk of what I was 'netting' ... because the last thing you feel like doing after coming home from working a 16 hour double shift is cooking dinner / shopping for bargains / gardening etc.
At any rate, in exchange for my years of college, I got to ...
- work every other holiday - no excuses
- deal with HIV / Aids / TB / Pneumonia infected patients
- have doctors instruct me to do things that were not in the best interests of 'my' patient
- not 'clearing' enough money after taxes and convenience expenses to ever achieve the lifestyle I dreamed about.
One of the things that convinced me that Respiratory Therapy might not have been the best career choice was contracting TB from a hospital patient and having to undergo 6 months worth of treatments ! Luckily I left the profession before being exposed to something worse (like an accidental HIV needle stick, which happened to a co-worker).
In retrospect, I earned more money 'net' of taxes in the first two years of dancing than I did in a sum total of 7 years spent in college or working in hospitals. And dancing only involved an average of 32 hours per week instead of 50-60 hours !
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
by sheer coincidence, here's another example of college graduates with technical degrees in a 'practical' field taking a hosing ...
(snip)"A News 8 investigation found that hundreds of aircraft mechanics have been brought into the United States to work at aircraft repair facilities.
Insiders say the companies that are importing the mechanics are so eager to save money, they’re overstating their qualifications. The result may be a threat to safety, abetted by lax enforcement of immigration law.
At daybreak any morning at San Antonio Aerospace, hundreds of workers amble through the gates for the day shift. They repair big jets like Airbuses, Boeing 757s and MD-11s.
Jada Williams used to work for one of the contracting companies, Aircraft Workers Worldwide (AWW), based in Daphne, Alabama. AWW supplied workers for two facilities, Mobile Aerospace Engineering (MAE) in Mobile, Alabama and San Antonio Aerospace, which are both controlled by ST Aerospace. San Antonio Aerospace is a division of ST Aerospace, the largest aircraft repair company in world.
"They’ve employed over 200 since I left,” said Williams, who said she was unfairly fired by the contractor last fall. "And I know we had over a hundred when I was in there, just in Mobile.”
San Antonio Aerospace uses several contracting companies to supply it with workers. It can be a high-profit business for the contractors. They can make $3 to $12 an hour for every worker hired by SAA, contractors say.
The drive for profits is so big, Williams and other insiders said, that the contractors often falsify the qualifications of the imports.
"We had two,” she said. “One of them was a female. She was about 16. It was a brother and a sister. One guy was a grocery bagger, one was a security guard in Puerto Rico. Their ages were between 18 and 22.”
Their ages are important because it takes years of experience or schooling to learn how to repair a big jet, experience they couldn’t have had.
One former SAA mechanic, who spent years learning his trade before being laid off, said foreign workers got their training on the job from the Americans they worked with.
"The more experienced mechanics, we would get paired up with either one or two of these guys,” he says. “And they would watch us for a month or so. And that’s how they would get their training.”
Williams is suing her former boss, Daniel Harding, for unlawful termination and racial discrimination. She has a computer full of company documents that were acquired accidentally when AWW got new computers for its office and gave her an old one. Spreadsheets, resumes and payrolls revealed many company practices, from interviews, to trips to the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City for visas, charts marked the progress of Mexican workers to the United States."(snip)
The real point here is that international 'wage arbitrage' is going to continue exerting downward pressure on the earnings of college educated US 'professionals', from aircraft maintenance technicians to software engineers to doctors. Thus Americans who invest years of effort and thousands ( more like tens of thousands) of dollars to obtain a college degree in a field that is 'marketable' today is making a high risk 'bet' ! The criteria for the bet of course is whether or not their future employment prospects / pay levels will be sufficient to cover their student loan debt and years of 'lost earnings' while attending college.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
There certainly are big problems with business and even taxes. But ther are many professions that need to start in college where one is not exploited as in the medical or social services fields. Not that each doesn't have its own set of problems and salary ceilings, if you don't start up your own business.
I know doctors, lawyers, professional engineers, and businessmen who started with college educations from Bachelor to Doctorate degrees. Some worked for corporations and some went into enterpreneuerships. Except for the recent economic downturn which affect almost everybody, they've done quite well.
I realize that it often takes luck and intelligence in addition to a college degree. Well, luck is a sometime thing. And not everyone has the required intelligence. But hard work and good judgement (as well as good associates and useful mentors) count for a lot also. But for all that, a college education can greatly amplify what you are able to do without one.
Everyone has their own story, but personal anecdotes give only a small insight into the whole picture of education.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
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I know doctors, lawyers, professional engineers, and businessmen who started with college educations from Bachelor to Doctorate degrees. Some worked for corporations and some went into enterpreneuerships. Except for the recent economic downturn which affect almost everybody, they've done quite well.
Again, that was then and this is now. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but this point is analogous to someone 'recommending' investing in real estate 5 years ago based on 25 years worth of uninterrupted gains in real estate values. Like real estate's 'paradigm' failing to recognize the festering impact of structural changes in the housing economy (i.e. HUD / Fannie repurchase of poor creditworthiness mortgages, unregulated lenders getting away with writing 'liar loans' etc.), the college degree 'paradigm' fails tor recognize the festering impact of structural changes in the 'professional' economy (i.e. outsourcing of engineering work, offshoring of US manufacturing facilities, increasing importation of H1B foreign 'professionals etc.).
To name just a few examples, new doctors with a degree from an Ivy League college and $200k in student loans will be facing both H1B doctors from India willing to work for $100k a year plus increasingly gov't set reimbursement rates for medical services. New engineers face all manner of outsourcing, from Chrysler's engineering now being done in Italy, to software being written in India, to oil refining being offshored to avoid having to pay a 'double' carbon tax, to US manufacturers offshoring production operations.
However, I'll grant you that government funded 'professional' employment should remain good as long as the stimulus money keeps flowing. This covers engineers in the solar / wind industry, road and bridge work etc. Unfortunately, just like synthetic fuels research of 30 years ago, as soon as the gov't spending / subsidies stop the jobs will disappear since the underlying economics are incapable of generating a profit in the absence of those subsidies. And just like California / NY / NJ, at some point soon it will no longer be possible for the gov't continue borrowing money ad infinitum in order to keep funding current levels of 'public sector' employment of 'professionals'.
Of course ever increasing gov't regulations will provide excellent job security for lawyers !
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I realize that it often takes luck and intelligence in addition to a college degree. Well, luck is a sometime thing
The same element of luck is arguably responsible for an equal number of successful entrepreneurs without college degrees !
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
So due to current conditions in the US we just ought to dumb down our workforce or be content with having huge personal debts and jobs that may be transported to Singapore or being laid-off by professionals hardly conversant in English?
I guess I just don't want to be as ultimately pessimistic as do you.
That is a good lead you gave me. But it can be handled partly by further limiting the H1B visas to say 20,000/yr, which I'm sure industry doesn't want, but may be something Obama could do. I suppose that is number per year. From USCIS:
Q : Is there an annual limit on the number of H-1B aliens?
Yes. The current law limits to 65,000 the number of aliens who may be issued a visa or otherwise provided H-1B status in FY2004. (The numerical limitation was temporarily raised to 195,000 in FY2001, FY2002 and FY2003.)
From wikipedia:
Quote:
The current law limits to 65,000 the number of aliens who may be issued a visa or otherwise provided H-1B status. (The numerical limitation was temporarily raised to 195,000 in FY2001, FY2002 and FY2003.) In addition, excluded from the ceiling are all H-1B non-immigrants who work at (but not necessarily for) universities and non-profit research facilities. This means that contractors working at, but not directly employed by the institution may be exempt from the cap...Laws also exempt up to 20,000 foreign nationals holding a master’s or higher degree from U.S. universities from the cap on H-1B visas.
The Department of Homeland Security approved about 132,000 H-1B visas in 2004 and 117,000 in 2005. [I suppose that includes the 'exceptions.']
Visa renewals do not count towards the annual limits. Transfers among employers only count when changing jobs from an employer exempt from the limits (academia or research) to one that is not exempt.
Employer attestations to protect U.S. workers
The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) is responsible for ensuring that foreign workers do not displace or adversely affect wages or working conditions of U.S. workers.
The Department of Labor states that the H-1B law doesn't require employers to seek local talent before recruiting abroad for their US job openings, except in limited circumstances when the employer is considered H-1B dependent:
The DOL's Strategic Plan, Fiscal Years 2006-2011 (pg. 36) states: "... H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker."
The Federal Register, dated June 30, 2006, Section II, paragraph 4, "the statute does not require employers...to demonstrate that there are no available US workers or to test the labor market for US workers as required under the permanent labor certification program."
Employers must attest that wages offered are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or alternatively, pay the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is greater. By signing the LCA (Labor Condition Application), the employer attests that: prevailing wage rate for area of employment will be paid; working conditions of position will not adversely affect conditions of similarly employed American workers; place of employment not experiencing labor dispute involving a strike or lockout.
Prior to 2005, the law required H-1B workers to be paid the higher of the prevailing wage for the same occupation and geographic location or that which the employers pays to similarly situated employees. Other factors, such as age and skill were not permitted to be taken into account for the prevailing wage. Congress changed the program in 2004 to require the Department of Labor to provide four skill-based prevailing wage levels for employers to use. Employers using this system classify most workers at the lowest skill level. This is the only prevailing wage mechanism the law permits that incorporates factors other than occupation and location.
The law was written and modified under Republican administration. Looks like it has been poorly enforced because of the political leanings. Further and maybe most importantly, it was written to BENEFIT companies looking to hire lower-paid foreign professional workers.
So I say it can be changed AGAIN. Now I have to get busy with my contacts.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
We want degrees to mean that students have learned the foundations of human knowledge: literature, chemistry, physics, composition, metaphysics, psychology, economics and so on. If we didn't, we'd replace degrees with inexpensive vocational exams.
There is the rub; in the computer driven world a vocational education in that field can command a very high salary. In fact one may even be given an honorary degree.
Quote:
Bill Gates, co-founder and chairman of Microsoft, will from Harvard University after speaking at their commencement ceremony.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
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So due to current conditions in the US
Again the low starting salaries for college grads, and the lack of in-field job offers for college grads, is NOT exclusively due to current economic conditions. It is due to a structural change which has been intensifying lately, but a structural change nonetheless. That structural change is based on growing outsourcing of software / engineering / medical services to low cost foreign countries. This is based on the closing of US manufacturing plants / oil refineries / other private sector business activities thus eliminating their US employees. The structural change also includes the ongoing flow of non-citizen H1B visa 'professionals', who are often willing to do the same 'professional' job as an American professional for 1/2 the salary. Truthfully, I have seen nothing to indicate that any of these recent trends will be reversed !!!
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
I am someone who has both a BA and a MA. I'm also the first to admit college can be the biggest scam ever. People might say how can I say that, but college itself taught me that, though they probably never intended.
I was a bright high school kid. I was one who should have gone to a great school. Instead I chose an open admission art college to study radio (after switching from a more expensive college). In my classes were people who were barely literate. I knew people who couldn't write an essay, let alone a research paper. I felt like I was in class with remedial students. In fact, this school had many remedial classes and many students were those who shouldn't have been in college. They didn't have any honors courses, something many students fought for. Other students were lazy and never did work. On top of this, the school changed the scholarships from those with 3.0 GPA to those in the ghetto regardless of GPA. I know people are wondering why I didn't change schools, and honestly I'm not sure why. Maybe because I had to drop out of a more expensive college because I couldn't afford it (incidentally the reason I started dancing). The other reason was because it was a famous college and has many famous alumni. I've been banned for life from the college and the alumni association because I gave an interview to a business paper about this school and the remedial students. These students (who never should have gone to college) water down degrees. Many other schools (including top notch colleges) are accepting many students they never would have before and offer remedial. I went on to grad school (at a state college) and didn't have the same issues because for now grad schools are picky and only accept those who got good grades.
College is good, but when too many get degrees it hurts those who worked hard. The fact is not everyone should go to college. If you were in the bottom of your class, learning a trade is a better idea. Maybe working yourself up at a store is another good idea. Getting a decent degree is the key. Many classmates got degrees in art history or womens studies. Many of these students (many were very bright) are now working jobs they didn't need degrees for. One person graduated with an art history degree $100,000 in debt. Guess what she's doing? Making $8 hour at an art store. I've done ok (except recently because I was laid off) and will but I have many skills in addition to my degrees.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
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In my classes were people who were barely literate. I knew people who couldn't write an essay, let alone a research paper. I felt like I was in class with remedial students. In fact, this school had many remedial classes and many students were those who shouldn't have been in college. They didn't have any honors courses, something many students fought for. Other students were lazy and never did work. On top of this, the school changed the scholarships from those with 3.0 GPA to those in the ghetto regardless of GPA. I know people are wondering why I didn't change schools, and honestly I'm not sure why. Maybe because I had to drop out of a more expensive college because I couldn't afford it (incidentally the reason I started dancing).
This is the general observation of private sector industries seeking 'qualified' new employees as well ! As posted earlier, more and more potential employers are operating under a 'two tier' system ... where a person with a degree from a (comparatively expensive) private college is definitely given more credibility / job opportunities than a person with the very same degree from a (comparatively inexpensive) 'public' college. It is arguable that the 'public' colleges are subject to pressures re 'diversity' of the student body ( bringing in a significant percentage of students who have not been properly prepared for college by inner city high schools etc.), are subject to pressures not to 'flunk out' too high a percentage of minority students (thus curricula / tests are 'watered down') etc. An unintended consequence of the gov'ts supposedly meritorious measures to provide greater access to a college education for minority / 'poor' students has now arguably devalued ALL 'public' college degrees.
Thus for prospective college students, investing in a comparatively inexpensive degree from a 'public' college now involves a growing risk that prospective employers won't consider you sufficiently qualified and won't hire you for 'choice' positions. As a result, the probable pay differential compared to a 'no degree required' job probably isn't earth shaking. On the flip side, investing in a comparatively expensive degree from a 'private' college may result in prospective employers thinking you are more qualified and increasing the chance of landing a 'choice' position with a larger salary. However, because of the burden of principal and interest payments on a massive student loan for 10-15 years after graduation, the TRUE earnings differential compared to a 'no degree required' job - while better - is not an automatic winner either.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
The sad thing is it's a private school. Part of the reason I went there is because I thought it was more selective. Instead I found that it was expensive because of the name.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Interesting post, Melonie. This is something that's been on my mind for many years now. My fathers been a professor for 40 years. Throughout my childhood, I saw his advice go from "college is essential!" to "Getting a degree is no longer worth the investment." He's seen far too many students, even those who thought they were on the "safe track" and who had chosen their majors according to what they thought they could get a good paying job in, who have to go right back to working entry level jobs. But, of course, with a lot more debt. He's seen internships go from something that one did for a little bit, maybe even got a little pay from, to be something that people are expected to do for years for absolutely nothing, and with less and less chance of it leading to a career in the desired field. One famous ad agency in Portland is now even charging students for internships. It's really getting ridiculous.
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
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Originally Posted by
Elvia
Interesting post, Melonie. This is something that's been on my mind for many years now. My fathers been a professor for 40 years. Throughout my childhood, I saw his advice go from "college is essential!" to "Getting a degree is no longer worth the investment." He's seen far too many students, even those who thought they were on the "safe track" and who had chosen their majors according to what they thought they could get a good paying job in, who have to go right back to working entry level jobs. But, of course, with a lot more debt. He's seen internships go from something that one did for a little bit, maybe even got a little pay from, to be something that people are expected to do for years for absolutely nothing, and with less and less chance of it leading to a career in the desired field. One famous ad agency in Portland is now even charging students for internships. It's really getting ridiculous.
There are several companies here offering "internships" to those with degrees. One company is requesting people with 5 years corporate experience, and degrees (they prefer MBA but will take any degree) for "professional internships" in fields like law and marketing. I'm also seeing places actually charging people money to apply.
Not that this will surprised any long time dancers, but I made more money dancing, modeling and running a dance agency than I ever did in the corporate world. I made a decent salary in the corporate world, but nothing like I did when I was younger. Yet, the corporate jobs I had all required college degrees (and later on both degrees and experience).
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Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
Nationally 26% are collage graduates but in some cities over 50% are. That is a lot of people wanting high paying jobs.
A collage degree may still provide some advantage as; six states with high percentages of college graduates (New Jersey, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Minnesota) also were among states having the highest estimated median household income.