-
US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Another example of why 'serious professional dancers' may need a passport to find their (former) high roller club customers !
(snip)"Here's one way to deal with the brutal U.S. job market: Leave the country.
With the nation's unemployment rate at a 26-year-high of 10.2%, more Americans are hunting for, and landing, work overseas, according to staffing companies and executive search firms.
Jeff Joerres, CEO of Manpower, the No. 1 U.S. staffing company, says about 500 clients are seeking jobs abroad, up from a few dozen six months ago.
"It suddenly looks like there may be better opportunities outside the U.S.," Joerres says. "It is a phenomenon we haven't had before."
While the number of globe-trotting job candidates is still relatively small, the trend reverses a longtime pattern of far more foreign workers seeking jobs in the U.S., Joerres says.
Fifty-four percent of executives said they'd be likely or highly likely to accept a foreign post, according to a survey of 114 executives Friday by talent management company Korn/Ferry. Just 37% of those surveyed in 2005 said they'd go abroad.
The hottest international job markets include India, China, Brazil, Dubai and Singapore, recruiters say. International companies are largely seeking candidates in engineering, computer technology, manufacturing, investment banking and consulting."(snip)
(snip)"After completing his junior year at Georgia Institute of Technology, Charles Wang, an industrial engineering major, worked as a project manager for United Parcel Service in Dubai from July 2008 until last May. His task: develop a delivery system for the Arab state's first-ever network of streets and addresses. After graduating next month, he plans to return to Dubai for a permanent job.
It's "because of ... my inability to find good jobs in the U.S.," says Wang, 22, adding he'll stay in Dubai until the U.S. job market is "back to normal."
At MIT's Sloan School of Management, 24% of 2009 graduates got jobs overseas, up from 19% last year. It's "tied to the (U.S.) economy," says career development head Jackie Wilbur."(snip)
from
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
I wonder if any Silicon Valley dancers can weigh in here with their observations.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Not surprising since a lot of foreigner professionals have wanted to get jobs in the US. At least it was so a few years ago.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
threlayer
Not surprising since a lot of foreigner professionals have wanted to get jobs in the US. At least it was so a few years ago.
Many people who can, are opening up to the idea of working outside the United States.
Some of them, such as those working for international companies, don't have a choice. The purpose of the department goes over seas - often the management has a choice to go with it or move to another part of the company. The cubicle serfs generally are just let go.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
threlayer
Not surprising since a lot of foreigner professionals have wanted to get jobs in the US. At least it was so a few years ago.
A lot of them who used to come here are now staying home. Indian professionals are more likely t0 stay there as the middle class has grown and economy improved. Even illegals are more likely to stay home; no jobs for them here.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
^^ I see this part as only good for both countries.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
threlayer
^^ I see this part as only good for both countries.
Only if, IF the U.S. produces enough doctors and engineers to meet our own demand. Lately, we have NOT been doing so thanks to restrictive Medical School admission policies and not enough engineers being produced by American schools.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
^^^ and one major reason that America has not been producing enough doctors, engineers etc. isn't all that hard to figure out either. Like everything else in economics there is a cost / benefit ratio involved. Becoming a licensed doctor or professional engineer requires investing the tuition cost and lost opportunity cost of the college education to start with. Then both professions require investing a whole bunch of work effort in exchange for not much in the way of a paycheck during an 'internship' period. And once fully credentialed, both professions then face a 'fork in the road'. One option is to become the 'employee' of some big corporation or gov't entity under working conditions and/or philosophies that may not be optimal - in exchange for a 'paycheck' that, while comfortable, is not likely to put one in the 'rich' tax bracket. The other option is to 'hang out your own shingle' to increase income potential and optimize working conditions / professional philosophy, but assume the potential malpractice / liability risks ( and insurance premiums ) that go along with it.
To prove the point anecdotally, I have a reasonably good friend who is a licensed medical doctor. However, about 10 years ago, he chose to obtain a JD and is now practicing law ! He tells me that this yields twice as much income for half as much work effort, and ten times less stomach acid !
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
That is true about doctors, but not engineers.
An individual with a mechanical or electrical engineering degree can get a job right out of school, paying a decent living wage. Within 5 years, they can be making 6 figures. Going "independent" as an engineer isn't really popular, since most things that require engineering expertise are multi-million/billion dollar projects owned by larger companies.
However, the engineer can leverage their skills and experience into another job at another firm, with mor optimal working conditions. Both of my parents are engineers. My father did go independent and have his own firm, learning that it is far more lucrative to be employed than to be independent.
Truth is, people don't go into engineering in this country because the public education system is HORRIBLE at teaching math and science. Young people don't feel they are smart enough to get into these programs, or just simply can't cut it in the curriculum because they have never learned the basics adequately.
Look at math/science education in China, Inda, and the former Soviet Union. Now, look at the amount of very skilled engineers from those countries.
The US needs to step up their education and promotion of math and science, so we can start producing real competitors in these highly important and lucrative industries.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
^^^ and one major reason that America has not been producing enough doctors, engineers etc. isn't all that hard to figure out either. Like everything else in economics there is a cost / benefit ratio involved. Becoming a licensed doctor or professional engineer requires investing the tuition cost and lost opportunity cost of the college education to start with. Then both professions require investing a whole bunch of work effort in exchange for not much in the way of a paycheck during an 'internship' period. And once fully credentialed, both professions then face a 'fork in the road'. One option is to become the 'employee' of some big corporation or gov't entity under working conditions and/or philosophies that may not be optimal - in exchange for a 'paycheck' that, while comfortable, is not likely to put one in the 'rich' tax bracket. The other option is to 'hang out your own shingle' to increase income potential and optimize working conditions / professional philosophy, but assume the potential malpractice / liability risks ( and insurance premiums ) that go along with it.
To prove the point anecdotally, I have a reasonably good friend who is a licensed medical doctor. However, about 10 years ago, he chose to obtain a JD and is now practicing law ! He tells me that this yields twice as much income for half as much work effort, and ten times less stomach acid !
The US produces as many doctors as medical schools will allow. There is no shortage of applicants to become doctors. There are far more people applying to medical school than the number of people being accepted.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle2
The US produces as many doctors as medical schools will allow. There is no shortage of applicants to become doctors. There are far more people applying to medical school than the number of people being accepted.
Yes, but.... many of the applicants are foreign students because of a lack of student positions elsewhere.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
That is true about doctors, but not engineers.
An individual with a mechanical or electrical engineering degree can get a job right out of school, paying a decent living wage. Within 5 years, they can be making 6 figures. Going "independent" as an engineer isn't really popular, since most things that require engineering expertise are multi-million/billion dollar projects owned by larger companies.
However, the engineer can leverage their skills and experience into another job at another firm, with mor optimal working conditions. Both of my parents are engineers. My father did go independent and have his own firm, learning that it is far more lucrative to be employed than to be independent.
...
Look at math/science education in China, Inda, and the former Soviet Union. Now, look at the amount of very skilled engineers from those countries.
The US needs to step up their education and promotion of math and science, so we can start producing real competitors in these highly important and lucrative industries.
Absolutely TRUE.... :)
Starting salaries are often in the mid 50s to low 60s. And that ain't hay.
Many of the engineering schools are also highly populated by foreign students.
A lot of this aversion of US students is also the social stigma (the nerd effect) promulgated onto impressionable kids by the media, movies, etc. And it is purely STUPID nd even suicidal to the US position in the world! Besides there are lots of fascinating engineering challenges that produce significant improvements to peoples' lives. Biggest problem I've had in the profession is that there some jerks (not just bosses) in the profession, just like in every other profession.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
latest statistics don't match these numbers anymore ...
shows that average starting salaries for new engineers are now in the mid to upper $40's. This is not a lot of money if that new graduate happens to be carrying $100k worth of student loan repayment obligations.
This figure has dropped recently because of two factors which have both been previously mentioned. The first is a steady increase in the percentage of 'foreign' engineers who are willing to work for these lower rates of pay. These can either consist of 'foreign' engineering students who graduate from US schools without tuition repayment obligations ( their tuition payments have been subsidized by foreign sources ) or 'foreign' engineers now working in the US under H1B visas.
This figure has also dropped because of recent willingness on the part of experienced US engineers who have lost their $100k a year former jobs to accept $60k per year job openings versus remaining unemployed.
Also, while US private sector engineering jobs have been disappearing, lately this loss has been offset by the new demand for engineers created by US federal 'stimulus' / green energy spending. However, it remains to be seen if this will amount to much more than a 'cash for clunkers' one time spike that goes away as soon as the gov't funding goes away. And to add insult to injury, I see that some recent state level 'stimulus' funded infrastructure projects have been granted to Asian firms in an effort to save taxpayer money. This will probably lead to an even greater influx of 'foreign' engineering work, either via H1B or outsourcing, which will in turn apply the same sort of global arbitrage pressure being applied to US engineering 'labor' as has already been applied to less skilled US 'labor'.
~
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
What year is your list from? The data seems old. Here's a list from 2009:
http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html
There are a number of engineering fields starting at over $60k.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
^^^ actually it's just the opposite ... YOUR link is for 2007-2008 average salaries, whereas mine is for current average salaries ! Also YOUR government link is arguably 'loaded' towards public sector pay rates ... which unlike the private sector can arguably never go down.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
The top of the page I linked to shows average salaries for 2009. There is an article below it, which shows salaries for 2008. The starting salary for chemical engineers increased approximately $1,800 dollars from 2008 to 2009.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
^^^ I'm still not buying that your link's ( actually a link within your link's) starting pay rate numbers are mainstream ... since they are only based on a survey of 200 college career centers. This skews the survey in favor of 'name' engineering colleges ( such as RIT referred to in your link ) and high profile large corporations ( your link mentioned defense contractors, oil companies, microsoft etc.) that seek new graduates from those 'name' colleges.
I would also add that NACE - the group that conducted the 200 college based study in your link - has a vested interest since they offer paid job matching services for high profile corporations and name colleges. Even more curious is the fact that while NACE performed their survey based on 200 'member' colleges, they advertise the existance of 900 'member' colleges on their own website. See Hmmm ... perhaps they simply didn't have time to include data from the other 700 member colleges ? Yup, that makes perfect sense ! And undoubtedly the 200 colleges surveyed out of their 900 member base accurately reflects a true cross section of all 900 member college starting salaries instead of just the 200 highest ? Yup, that goes without saying !
Considering that there are probably 200 colleges in the state of NY alone that offer engineering degrees, whereas this survey is based on the 'top' 200 NACE colleges nationwide, your link clearly constitutes 'cherry picking'. Additionally your link includes a disclaimer to that effect
(snip)"Left behind. Of course, not every student with an engineering degree will score a fat paycheck. RIT's Contomanolis noted that "average" graduates are feeling the pinch of fewer job offers. Still, in a tough job market, graduates with technology degrees have an advantage"(snip)
^^ if RIT is admitting that it's 'average' performance level graduates aren't receiving a surplus of job offers, one can only imagine the type of job offers being made available to graduates of no-name or state colleges ! In fact one does not need to imagine ... merely read the actual starting salary levels included in MY link that are based on a far wider sample !
~
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
http://www.engineersalary.com/entry.asp shows that average starting salaries for new engineers are now in the mid to upper $40's. This is not a lot of money if that new graduate happens to be carrying $100k worth of student loan repayment obligations.
~
Actually, that's pretty darn good money considering the alternative starting salaries for liberal arts graduates. Remember, not everyone is entrepeneurially minded, they cannot run their own business, they need to be working rats for an employer.
Not everyone graduates college with $100K in debt..people get scholarships, parent's pay, work/study. Here in Texas, the two state universities run about half of that for a full four year program, including student housing and books.
Anyway, why do people freak out so much about student loans? They tend to be subsidized, low-interest, and the loanee can take a credit or deduction for the interest on their taxes. My student loans, while only about $22K in total...have an interest rate of about 5%...effectively about 3% with tax credit, and monthly pay is ~$200...depending on how much I want it to be. Doesn't break the bank does it? I've paid in as low as $90 a month when times were tough. Also, my loans were for a graduate program, where there are no Pell grants, and far less loan options than an entering student might have.
Plus, its easy as pie to get forbearance or deferrment. I've done it before when money was tight.
$40K a year starting salary down here is a great salary for a single 22 year old. Not so much in urban NYC, but in Texas, a frugal person could easily save half of their earnings, and be out of school loan indebtedness in less than 10 years. I got my undergrad in liberal arts and my starting salary was about $24K, and I had a lot of technical skill and experience, just not the degree.
Also, of course not every engineer is going to be making 6-figures...sooner, later, or ever. There is a bell curve distribution based on talent, productivity, expertise, "connections", office politics, etc......
Its still a better gamble financially to get an undergraduate degree in elec. engineering or accounting than in art history. Odd are in your favor. Doesn't mean that a person doesn't need to do other things to get ahead; internships at companies, join professional organizations, network, etc.....
I really don't understand why people think that a degree, any degree, from any school, will guarantee them anything. That 1950's era thinking.
MELONIE, WHAT DO YOU ALTERNATIVELY PROPOSE FOR THE YOUTH OF THIS COUNTRY...IF EVERYTHING SUCKS SO BADLY?
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Did you know that in the state of New Mexico, if a doctor from the state practices medicine there after graduating from med school, the state will payoff their medical debts? Its a kind of a stimulus program, as NM is really poor, doctor salaries are low, and they have trouble retaining good talent.
My Dr. friend is from there, and actually is just paying down his $100K loans himself, because he said NM is such a shithole he would never want to live there again. However, he is an entrepeneaur and built his very own practice from scratch.
I wonder how many other states have a program like this? Sounds like a good possibility for a person leaving medical school, not the "best" doctor willing to start his own practice, and saddled with debt.
Interesting.....
Edit to add: I do not know what the cap is on the med school debt payoff, it might not cover the entire costs of tuition, FYI.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
if a doctor from the state practices medicine there after graduating from med school, the state will payoff their medical debts? Its a kind of a stimulus program, as NM is really poor, doctor salaries are low, and they have trouble retaining good talent.
From what I have heard, several states offer similar deals. However, they also require that the doctor accept medicare and medicaid patients ... such that the doctor is not free to establish the price of treatment and must accept the below market 'reimbursement rates' for treatment that are dictated by the state / federal gov't. Thus the overall effect is that the state appears to 'give' with one hand while simultaneously 'taking away' with the other hand.
Also, this principle goes even farther in some states ... with the doctor avoiding having to pay medical practice insurance premiums out of their own pocket by becoming the 'employee' of a state sanctioned medical facility. However, this also sets / limits the doctor's income potential at state established levels.
Circling back on topic, these sort of options might be acceptable to recent graduate doctors with mediocre talent and/or country club work ethics. But they are a major dis-incentive for other doctors with exceptional talents and and/or extreme dedication.
Quote:
$40,000 per year (sic) - Actually, that's pretty darn good money considering the alternative starting salaries for liberal arts graduates. Remember, not everyone is entrepeneurially minded, they cannot run their own business, they need to be working rats for an employer.
These are two separate issues ... with the fact that the costs of obtaining a liberal arts degree constitute an arguable 'waste of money' in today's economy being a whole 'nuther issue. But they both share a common underlying issue in regard to the abilities and 'market value' of the types of jobs that would-be liberal arts students and would-be engineering students are capable of doing in the absence of a 4 year degree.
Where a would-be engineer is concerned, you're talking about a person who, without the engineering degree, actually has highly marketable mechanical / electrical abilities. Thus the cost-benefit equation you are really talking about is investing 4 years worth of tuition and lost income potential into becoming an engineer in order to receive a starting salary in the mid $40's, versus investing one year and accepting a job right out of 'trade school' in order to earn something in the high $30's to low $40's range. And if you add in the consequences of progressive income tax rates, as well as the necessity of paying back ( much higher cost ) student loans, the net after tax pay differential is even less.
Let's try putting some guesstimated numbers to this cost-benefit equation. Scenario 1 the enginnering student 'gives up' 4 years worth of earnings potential at other work and obtains an engineering degree ... with a 'bargain' $60,000 student loan at 5% interest. After graduation the engineer accepts a $50k per year job offer. With progressive tax rates, say $8k per year go to federal and state income tax, leaving $42k. Then another $6k per year must go to repaying student loans, leaving $36k.
On the other hand Scenario 2 the 'trade school' student 'gives up' one year's worth of earnings potential at other work and obtains a certificate ... with a $10,000 student loan at 5% interest. The certified mechanic / electrician accepts a $40k per year job offer. With progressive tax rates, say $5k per year go to federal and state income tax, leaving $ 35k. Then another $1 per year must go to repaying student loans, leaving $34k ... a net after tax after loan difference of $2,000 per year.
BUT ... the mechanic / electrician will also be earning money 3 years sooner than the engineer. As a result, the mechanic / electrician's additional $103k of gross earnings during those three years would allow them to 'bank' or invest some portion of those additional 3 years worth of earnings if they choose to live as 'cheaply' as a college student during those 3 years the same as they would have at an engineering college. Even if the mechanic / electrician only banks $10k per year, after three years this would provide at least an additional $1000 in annual income ... thus reducing the overall differential down to the $1000 per year ballpark.
Of course there will be those that point out that, after 10 years, student loans will be paid off and the differential will increase. This is true on the face of it. But many things can change over the course of 10 years, not least of which could be a further increase in progressive income tax rate differentials. And no matter what changes take place, 10 years down the road the electrician / mechanic will still have that initial $30k in savings or investments, whereas the engineer will not !
~
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
^ The final salary of a technician is likely to be under $60k in most industries while a staff engineer's final salary in today's dollars is often over 80,000 in the same industries, with a top supervising project engineer's salary could be over 120,000. (Given that one can obtain employment in the first place.)
BTW where did you get your '2009' figures?
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
Circling back on topic, these sort of options might be acceptable to recent graduate doctors with mediocre talent and/or country club work ethics. But they are a major dis-incentive for other doctors with exceptional talents and and/or extreme dedication.
~
Yes, but most doctors are just average. And for a non-risk taker physician just wanting to land a comfy job and saddled in debt, this is an option.
Or, its an option for a few years. Not every doctor wants to be a multi-millionaire hero, some are pleased to help out communities in need, with lack of great medical care.
Just sayin...its an option. My doctor friends who were all $100K in debt don't complain on it. Oh, and I worked on their books and business plans, this is how I know....
They just paid the minimum on their loans for a few years in residency...got the tax credit for their interest. Then, when they started practice, they made enough to up the monthly payments, and usually eradicate the debt within 10 years. Med school debt is simply not as large a deterrant as you think.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
When I think of engineers with a college degree, I think of electrical engineers building logic boards, or someone designing an oil refinary for BP.
I don't think of electricians and car mechanics. Although all of these trades use mathematics, and involve "build and repair", they are completely different disciplines and jobs.
But yes, a mechanic and electrician can make pretty fat bank helping people out locally, and can run their own business. A talented degreed engineer can built spaceships for NASA and go to the moon.
But I do know some talented engineers that got their first degrees at ITT, worked for a few years, then got additional credentials through various certifications.
Really, both scenarios you pointed out were fine Melonie, but its not an apples:apples comparison.
We need ALL sorts of engineers. And a person doesn't really learn some of the more complex engineering principles, by being an electrician's apprentice.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
threlayer
^ The final salary of a technician is likely to be under $60k in most industries while a staff engineer's final salary in today's dollars is often over 80,000 in the same industries, with a top supervising project engineer's salary could be over 120,000. (Given that one can obtain employment in the first place.)
My parents are the same age, both engineers in the mechanical arena (NOT mechanics). They have the same amount of experience. My father got the equivalent of a technician's diploma, and various certifications over the years. He did a lot of apprentice kind of work, learned on the job. My mom got equivalent pf master's degree from a proper university and went to work for large companies. She makes well over 6 figures, and has for over a decade. My dad just had to take a pay cut after getting laid off, and now maybe makes $50K a year, at age 60, with 35 years experience.
These are just average people, they just want to work and make a living, they never wanted to be the next CEO of Shlumberger, or invent the laptop. That's more of what you're likely to have seen with the scenario Melonie described.
Although, who knows, times are changing.
-
Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
...
Where a would-be engineer is concerned, you're talking about a person who, without the engineering degree, actually has highly marketable mechanical / electrical abilities. Thus the cost-benefit equation you are really talking about is investing 4 years worth of tuition and lost income potential into becoming an engineer in order to receive a starting salary in the mid $40's, versus investing one year and accepting a job right out of 'trade school' in order to earn something in the high $30's to low $40's range. And if you add in the consequences of progressive income tax rates, as well as the necessity of paying back ( much higher cost ) student loans, the net after tax pay differential is even less.
...Scenario 1 the engin[e]ering student 'gives up' 4 years worth of earnings potential at other work and obtains an engineering degree ... with a 'bargain' $60,000 student loan at 5% interest. After graduation the engineer accepts a $50k per year job offer....
...Scenario 2 the 'trade school' student 'gives up' one year's worth of earnings potential at other work and obtains a certificate ....
Two problems with these scenarios....
Scenario 1: the engineering student is the more likely of the two to find an assistantship or scholarship or be in a work-study program which reduces his/her financial obligation.
Scenario 2: the technicial will be in school 2 years and has a decent change of a good placement after that, likely as an apprentice at maybe $30-35k for at least a year.
General: The earnings potential of either/both, without any further education, is about maybe $20-25k, or if unlucky slinging burgers at maybe $10-15k.
Look at my previous post to see what typically happens in the future for both.