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Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
Had considered moving from one desert area to another in the past. Have changed my mind after reading enough about the coming shortage of potable water. Which seems a lot more likely to me than a number of the "climate change" scenarios, from simple population growth, if nothing else.
So now I'm at the start of trying to find a small plot of land to purchase which is located anywhere with year-round access to drinking water, etc.
Any suggestions as to where to start - unfortunately, I really don't want to live where it snows in the winter, so that limits the choices, but a lot of rain would be fine.
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Re: Researching real estate
Agreed that all of the states that depend on the depletion of the Ogallala aquifer are screwed big time in the long run. So that basically wipes the southwest states off your list.
Wanting to avoid snow basically keeps you south of the Mason Dixon line, or even 100 miles further south.
Tennessee ? North Carolina ? Kentucky ? Virginia ? West Virginia ? All have plenty of good quality water if you locate in the right area ( which is one reason why the original whiskey rebellion distillers relocated there ! )
Personally, Northern Kentucky suits me ... although it still gets pretty hot in August ! Close enough to Cincinatti for fulfilling any needs for 'big city' shopping, medical and other services ... but without the Ohio taxes.
For instance ... is 13 acres, part woods part farmable land, with your very own creek running through it !
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Re: Researching real estate
Thank you to both of you! Northern Kentucky sounds pretty good - being a native of SoCal, the August heat shouldn't be a problem. Just don't like, at all, the information I'm finding about running out of potable water, planet-wide, while doing this research!
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Re: Researching real estate
^^^ I actually tried rain water harvesting when I was still living in New York. I attached rain gutters, downspouts, and two 55 gallon plastic drums to collect rainwater from my greenhouse roof. However, while this was OK for watering plants, it was definitely NOT OK for human consumption since everything from the neighboring farmers' air sprayed pesticides to the county's air sprayed insecticides to emissions from a factory in a nearby town to bacteria colonies would wind up in the collection barrels. It's still 'surface water' ... which can only be as clean as the quality of the nearby air that the rain is falling through. Now 'running' water i.e. a river or stream, doesn't have these 'surface water' problems to anywhere near the same degree.
However, I then drove a shallow well point near my greenhouse, and had all of the excellent quality water I could ever want via an old fashioned hand pump ! The earth itself makes a fantastic ( and essentially free ) water filter ! And it's a whole lot better from many viewpoints to find clean water at a depth of 10-20 ft ( which can be pumped by hand or with a simple suction pump ) versus the Ogallala Aquifer states where wells now need to be 300-400-500 feet deep and water pumps need to be as powerful as car engines !
Of course, water isn't the only resource needed for self-sufficiency. You also need fertile land, which is typically better the closer to a stream / river you are and in upstate NY I was in a river vally about 1/2 mile from the river itself. One good snowfall over the winter also helps the soil to 'replenish' itself via natural compost effect ... which is about all the snow that is expected in northern KY ( as opposed to 3-4 months worth of solid snow cover in northern NY ). If you go far enough to the south to never get a freeze / snow at all, you then risk a higher level of fungus and blight problems since the humidity is generally higher ( unless you go west, with increasing water availability problems ) plus one annual freeze will act as a natural pesticide by killing off quite a few nasty bacteria and fungi in the topsoil.
But you also need sunshine ... which was a major problem in upstate NY where local weather means only 46% of available sunshine will actually make it through clouds plus the available sunshine at 44 degrees latitute isn't great to start with. In comparison, northern Kentucky's local weather means 51% of available sunshine will make it through the clouds plus the available sunshine at 39 degree latitude is significantly better.
And down here way south of the border, the available sunshine at 18 degrees latitude is enough to keep all of my plants happy even when it's slightly cloudy !!! But the fungus and bacteria problems are MAJOR ... not to mention the insects !
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Re: Researching real estate
^^^ we're probably taking this thread off topic, but yeah when I was living in New York I was a serious 'companion' planter ... sunflowers next to strawberries, onions next to tomatoes, beets next to bush beans etc. I also planted Bee Balm next to squash for promoting pollination and planted garlic / shallots at the end of my garden to discourage pests.
However, my reasons for doing this were mostly cost / labor related as opposed to ideological. Anything that would 'naturally' save me the cost and effort of having to 'fight' garden pest problems, and anything that would 'naturally' result in my getting a higher yield from my garden, was worth trying. And while most of my garden practices qualified as 'organic' in principle, I was definitely up for the use of hybrid plant seed that would perform better under my particular growing conditions ( from self-pollinating cucumbers for my greenhouse, to disease resistant hybrid tomatoes ) as well as the use of ( gentle and as natural as possible ) fungicides / pesticides when necessary. Trust me, if you have early signs of leaf blight threatening to run rampant through everything growing in a greenhouse, out comes the fungicide even though it doesn't qualify as being 'organic' !
Now that I'm down here way south of the border, I'm having to 'relearn' things, because most of my grandmother's old gardening 'rules of thumb' which were evolved over 200 years of upstate NY growing conditions don't work at all down here !!!
As to the use of 'grow lights', I was getting into these big time while still living in upstate NY. I actually switched from HID to LED because the electricity costs in that area were so friggin high PLUS the state cops were checking power company customer records for high electricity usage ( i.e. operating HID grow lights 16 hours a day ) as a means of tracking down and investigating 'closet pot growers'. The LED grow lights were mui expensive at original purchase, but used less than 1/4 of the electricity to produce the same light !
Back on topic, I'm not exactly sure where Phaedrus was coming from, other than a desire to find a suitable plot of land and an implication of 'living off that land', at least in part.
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Re: Researching real estate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Christany
^^^
This is why I love you. You're my eco-hero. .
She's more a pragmatist and survivalist then an eco-hero type. You can bet her ammo is not far from her seeds.
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Re: Researching real estate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
Now that I'm down here way south of the border,
Which country? Why did you pick that particular country? I'm still interested in Panama.
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Re: Researching real estate
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You can bet her ammo is not far from her seeds
You got THAT right LOL. And down here south of the border I now have a LOT more options available,
like this latest 'toy' I recently picked up at the suggestion of my ex-pat neighbors ...
http://www.enemyforces.net/firearms/ingram_2.jpg
It definitely helps keep the 'natives' from becoming 'restless' ! But it's also 100% effective at eliminating 4 legged 'garden pests'. The only real downside ( beside the ammo cost LOL ) is picking all of the lead out before I can cook 'em up ( and it does taste just like chicken LOL ! )
However, going back to my own Indian 'roots', lately I've been avoiding the noise and gunpowder in favor of a more 'stealthy' weapon ...
http://mathewsinc.com/data/mathewsin...ion-browse.gif
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Re: Researching real estate
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
You got THAT right LOL.
Anyone making plans for future short falls of water, or food, etc, that does not have a means to defend it - and themselves - when others who didn't make such plans figure they will just take yours, is an idiot.
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
And down here south of the border I now have a LOT more options available,
That are legal? Yes, I know "legal" has shades of gray down there.... I'm not asking for you home address, just the freakin' country and why. PM me the info perhaps?
As most countries down there are not pro gun, one reason - among others - that perked my interest in Panama was the guns laws:
http://www.panamalaw.org/panama_gun_laws.html
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
Being most
like this latest 'toy' I recently picked up at the suggestion of my ex-pat neighbors ...
http://www.enemyforces.net/firearms/ingram_2.jpg
It definitely helps keep the 'natives' from becoming 'restless' ! But it's also 100% effective at eliminating 4 legged 'garden pests'. The only real downside ( beside the ammo cost LOL ) is picking all of the lead out before I can cook 'em up ( and it does taste just like chicken LOL ! )
What, no silencer for it? ;D
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Re: Researching real estate
^^^ no silencer needed ! In fact where 'restless natives' are concerned, the louder the better ! And in regard to legality, A. possession is 9/10ths of the law down here, and B. my ex-pat neighbors are better armed than any local cops ! Actually, we all have a general understanding that none of us wants the 'bad element' operating anywhere near our area, so none of the locals ( or local cops ) seems to object at all if the ex-pats provide their own 'deterrent' ! This is also one of the reasons that I chose this area over Panama and some other Central American countries ... because these countries are increasingly stand-offish re ex-pats interacting with locals, and the 'bad element' presence is much higher.
As to your other question ... well let's just say that it's south of the Mexican border, but not so far south that I can't drive to a world class Mexican hospital or a WalMart within a couple of hours ! I picked this location for a number of reasons, from not having a tax treaty with the USA to having a place where rich North American and Western European businessmen like to bring their yachts on vacation, to a high level of English language usage !
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Anyone making plans for future short falls of water, or food, etc, that does not have a means to defend it - and themselves - when others who didn't make such plans figure they will just take yours, is an idiot.
This was always something on my mind while I was still living in upstate NY, where the 'self defense' options were legally restricted, where debt laden state and local agencies were laying off cops, and where the 'natives' were capable of becoming VERY 'restless' as well.
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Re: Researching real estate
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
^^^ no silencer needed ! In fact where 'restless natives' are concerned, the louder the better !
As to your other question ... well let's just say that it's south of the Mexican border ! I picked it for a number of reasons, from not having a tax treaty with the USA to having a place where rich North American and Western European businessmen like to bring their yachts on vacation, to a high level of English language usage !
Yes, that narrows it down a bit, but your PERSEC is not exactly in danger by naming an entire country. Anyway, thanx. ;)
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Re: Researching real estate
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You know it's actually kind of interesting you mentioned Kentucky. At one point, I got really curious about attempting to map the "safest" place in the US as far as natural disasters go (at least historically).
Well, before I decided to totally leave the USA, I did a lot of research into making a state to state move. Northern Kentucky consistently kept coming up at or near the top of every 'list' ... from natural disasters to low taxes to low cost of living to fertile land / clean water to legal self-defense options to local climate to the culture / attitude of the 'natives' ( i.e. alcohol, tobacco, guns, horses etc. )
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but your PERSEC is not exactly in danger by naming an entire country
easy for you to say ... you don't 'stand out' the way I do LOL !!!
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Re: Researching real estate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
Well, before I decided to totally leave the USA, I did a lot of research into making a state to state move. Northern Kentucky consistently kept coming up at or near the top of every 'list' ... from natural disasters to low taxes to low cost of living to fertile land / clean water to legal self-defense options to local climate to the culture / attitude of the 'natives' ( i.e. alcohol, tobacco, guns, horses etc. )
My only major issue is the above is distance to the ocean. I hate being a long distance from the ocean. I come from a long line of sailors and it's in my DNA to be within a short drive of the ocean. I have no idea how people could live in places like Denver. When ever I visit that city I'm like "where the f-ing water front?"
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
easy for you to say ... you don't 'stand out' the way I do LOL !!!
PM is an option, or do you think I will forward the info to the NSA who will narrow their spy sats on that country 'till they find a blond with huge boobs carrying a Mac10? ::)
Regardless, what are the pros and cons of Panama as you see them? So far, that's where my research keeps leading me.
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Re: Researching real estate
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I will forward the info to the NSA who will narrow their spy sats on that country 'till they find a blond with huge boobs carrying a Mac10?
Actually, I have some options re carrying handguns that most people don't LOL
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I hate being a long distance from the ocean
well, down here I can actually bring a boat up through the cay and then a couple of miles up-river to dock within a couple of hundred yards of my 'house' !
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what are the pros and cons of Panama as you see them?
well everything is relative, but ...
The IRS has recently established a permanent presence in Panama for the specific purpose of investigating American ex-pat finances. See This is a BIG issue for some !
Gringo ex-pats living in Panama have been getting a 'bad rep' lately due to some incidents involving smuggling of native art antiquities to a high profile murder. Panama has always had a fairly strong 'us and them' view towards ex-pats, and these high profile 'thorns' have made the 'us and them' factor even higher. Not a big deal if you plan on staying 'confined' to one of the established ex-pat communities, but a potential problem if you want / need to interact with the 'locals'.
Panama no longer offers a 'practical' route toward Panamanian citizenship for most financially 'average' ex-pats.
However, Panama City is undoubtedly one of the cheapest 'First World' quality cities to live in ( if you don't mind the crime rate ! ).
Panama's pensionado resident visa is super-easy to get providing that you can show a gov't or corporate source of at least US$1000 a month in 'pension' income.
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Re: Researching real estate
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
I'm sure walking around like that is very popular with the locals. ;)
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
well, down here I can actually bring a boat up through the cay and then a couple of miles up-river to dock within a couple of hundred yards of my 'house' !
We were talkin' northern KT I recall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
well everything is relative, but ...
The IRS has recently established a permanent presence in Panama for the specific purpose of investigating American ex-pat finances. See
http://www.panamalaw.org/IRS_to_open...australia.html This is a BIG issue for some !
Gringo ex-pats living in Panama have been getting a 'bad rep' lately due to some incidents involving smuggling of native art antiquities to a high profile murder.
Panama no longer offers a 'practical' route toward Panamanian citizenship for ex-pats.
However, Panama City is undoubtedly one of the cheapest 'First World' quality cities to live in ( if you don't mind the crime rate ! ).
Panama's pensionado resident visa is super-easy to get providing that you can show a gov't or corporate source of at least US$1000 a month in 'pension' income.
Good info, thanx.
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Re: Researching real estate
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We were talkin' northern KY I recall.
Well, in both northern KY and upstate NY, you're dealing with fresh water lakes and rivers instead of the ocean. However, if you're a boating addict, in both cases it's totally possible to use inland waterways to reach the ocean ( eventually ).
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Re: Researching real estate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
Well, in both northern KY and upstate NY, you're dealing with fresh water lakes and rivers instead of the ocean. However, if you're a boating addict, in both cases it's totally possible to use inland waterways to reach the ocean ( eventually ).
That being the word right there! ;)
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
for what it's worth ... my 'third world country' situation may not be all that far away for y'all !!!
from Macleans ( Canada )
(snip)Third World America
In February, the board of commissioners of Ohio’s Ashtabula County faced a scene familiar to local governments across America: a budget shortfall. They began to cut spending and reduced the sheriff’s budget by 20 per cent. A law enforcement agency staff that only a few years ago numbered 112, and had subsequently been pared down to 70, was cut again to 49 people and just one squad car for a county of 1,900 sq. km along the shore of Lake Erie. The sheriff’s department adapted. “We have no patrol units. There is no one on the streets. We respond to only crimes in progress. We don’t respond to property crimes,” deputy sheriff Ron Fenton told Maclean’s. The county once had a “very proactive” detective division in narcotics. Now, there is no detective division. “We are down to one evidence officer and he just runs the evidence room in case someone wants to claim property,” said Fenton. “People are getting property stolen, their houses broken into, and there is no one investigating. We are basically just writing up a report for the insurance company.”
If a county without police seems like a weird throwback to an earlier, frontier-like moment in American history, it is not the only one. “Back to the Stone Age” is the name of a seminar organized in March by civil engineers at Indiana’s Purdue University for local county supervisors interested in saving money by breaking up paved roads and turning them back to gravel. While only some paved roads in the state have been broken up, “There are a substantial number of conversations going on,” John Habermann, who manages a program at Purdue that helps local governments take care of infrastructure, told Maclean’s. “We presented a lot of talking points so that the county supervisors can talk logically back to elected officials when the question is posed,” he said. The state of Michigan had similar conversations. It has converted at least 50 miles of paved road to gravel in the last few years."(snip)
(snip)"Arianna Huffington sees an even starker big picture emerging from the reams of bad economic news. “As we watch the middle class crumbling, for me this is a major indication that we are turning into a Third World country,” said Huffington, founder of the Huffington Post, in an interview. “The distinguishing characteristic of the Third World country is you have the people at the top and the rest—you don’t have a thriving middle class,” says Huffington, whose new book is entitled Third World America: How Our Politicians Are Abandoning the Middle Class and Betraying the American Dream.(snip)
(snip)"where does that leave people like the good citizens of Ashtabula County, Ohio? How can they be safe from criminals without a fully staffed local police force, TV station WKYC asked a local judge in April. “Arm yourselves,” came the reply from Ashtabula County Common Pleas Judge Alfred Mackey. “Be very careful, be vigilant, get in touch with your neighbors, because we’re going to have to look after each other.”
And so they did. In July, a group of farmers removed the safeties from their shotgun triggers and surrounded a trailer in which a suspected house robber was hiding while they waited for the county’s last, lone squad car to arrive."(snip)
from
On the 'bright side', at the very least Ohio ( and Kentucky ) still allow their citizens to arm themselves ! I would not want to find myself in a situation where state and local budget cuts allow the 'thin blue line' to be breached in suburban New York or suburban California or suburban Illinois etc. - where very few neighbors trust or even know each other, and where state and local regulations make gun ownership prohibitively difficult !
I don't want to unnecessarily peddle doom and gloom, but the 'gold foil hat' crowd will clearly tell anybody who is living in a suburban area of a high tax rate, strict gun control state that their situation is becoming increasingly 'risky'. This risk begins at the fundamental level of almost complete dependence on working infrastructure ... from municipal water systems, to electric and natural gas utilitity service, to a steady stream of trucks bringing food to a 'secure' suburban supermarket, to working telecommunications and functioning banks / credit card companies for transfer of payments. The risk then expands to the 'criminal element' knowing that suburban middle class households offer the easiest targets ( versus the privately protected 'rich', or the 'poor' who have little of value to steal ), targets that will become even easier as state and local cops are increasingly laid off in response to state and local gov't budget woes.
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
for what it's worth ... my 'third world country' situation may not be all that far away for y'all !!!...
Well, some people in some places look to be doing more than "just surviving" as they plan for what will eventually become inevitable!:
Australian_Solar_House
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
Melonie. How the hell did you get this well-versed on so many topics?? You blow my mind!
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
Phaedrus, I LOVE that Australian Solar House design !!!!! And I especially loved their geodesic dome double glazed greenhouse !!!!!
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
Phaedrus, I LOVE that Australian Solar House design !!!!! And I especially loved their geodesic dome double glazed greenhouse !!!!!
While Dr. Chalko might be a little bit "out there" on a few topics, he is obviously a genius!
He has actually come very close to building an entirely self-contained house, which needs nothing from the electric or gas utility companies, etc.
It would be interesting if a sufficient number of people did what he has already done, spreading their homes across the U.S. and other continents in as decentralized a manner as possible - not only does it have interesting implications re: taxation, but if people lived in a decentralized fashion, it would also make war much more difficult when there are no major cities left to attack! Well, I know it's a "pipe dream," but it's still nice to dream every once in a great while. Happy you loved his site so much. :)
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
^^^ unfortunately, the bigger issue with people setting themselves up for ( even partially ) self-sustaining living means buying a sufficient amount of land, means constructing premium priced energy efficient buildings, means buying relatively expensive solar / wind hardware, means buying relatively expensive greenhouses etc. A wild guess in US terms would be that the minimum buy-in price for a ( partially ) self-sustaining setup would be the $200,000 ballpark ... for 10 acres of fertile / forested land plus construction costs and set-up costs. And since nearly everything is 'custom', there won't be any developer or gov't subsidized lender offering zero down financing ! And even if the person could cough up a $50,000 down payment, it's also problematic attempting to get 30 year financing when a good portion of the collateral i.e. greenhouse, solar panels, wind turbine etc. have a useful life of 20 years or less ! As such, even if they chose to live a ( partially ) self-sustaining lifestyle, the vast majority of people could never afford to do so !
Money issues aside, it also means taking the time and making the effort to both learn and execute self-sustaining skills such as gardening, wood-cutting, cooking, marksmanship etc. And of those people who actually could afford to do so, a significant number of them would not be willing to put forth the additional personal effort nor sacrifice the personal comforts that practicing a ( partially ) self-sustaining lifestyle requires.
Thus you would still wind up with a large number of people renting apartments in cities, or stuck living in underwater mortgaged suburban homes that they cannot sell. You will still wind up with the 'rich' living in their gated, private security force protected urban / suburban mansions. From their standpoint, ( partially ) sustainable living is an expensive and/or uncomfortable 'side show'.
However, from a personal standpoint, I have lots of experience being a 'side show' freak LOL !
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Melonie
^^^ unfortunately, the bigger issue with people setting themselves up for ( even partially ) self-sustaining living means buying a sufficient amount of land, means constructing premium priced energy efficient buildings, means buying relatively expensive solar / wind hardware, means buying relatively expensive greenhouses etc. A wild guess in US terms would be that the minimum buy-in price for a ( partially ) self-sustaining setup would be the $200,000 ballpark ... for 10 acres of fertile / forested land plus construction costs and set-up costs. And since nearly everything is 'custom', there won't be any developer or gov't subsidized lender offering zero down financing ! And even if the person could cough up a $50,000 down payment, it's also problematic attempting to get 30 year financing when a good portion of the collateral i.e. greenhouse, solar panels, wind turbine etc. have a useful life of 20 years or less ! As such, even if they chose to live a ( partially ) self-sustaining lifestyle, the vast majority of people could never afford to do so !
Money issues aside, it also means taking the time and making the effort to both learn and execute self-sustaining skills such as gardening, wood-cutting, cooking, marksmanship etc. And of those people who actually could afford to do so, a significant number of them would not be willing to put forth the additional personal effort nor sacrifice the personal comforts that practicing a ( partially ) self-sustaining lifestyle requires.
Thus you would still wind up with a large number of people renting apartments in cities, or stuck living in underwater mortgaged suburban homes that they cannot sell. You will still wind up with the 'rich' living in their gated, private security force protected urban / suburban mansions. From their standpoint, ( partially ) sustainable living is an expensive and/or uncomfortable 'side show'.
However, from a personal standpoint, I have lots of experience being a 'side show' freak LOL !
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$$$ and effort wise, the economy of scale does not work out well, and unless there's enough people sharing in it, in both $$ and labor, very difficult (damn near impossible) to do. I have known a few people in NH who are close to self sustaining, and it's literally a full time job doing it. From a society POV, it's why a few people, become a village, who become a city, etc. and how "society" functions, such as it is....
To truly go "off the grid" is a life style, and amount off work, very few will tolerate.
However, if a large % of the population simply made some changes that would minimally - or not at all - impact their life style, it would do more for the planet then most realize. Until a true paradigm shift takes place, it wont happen, and human nature being what it is, is reactive vs proactive.
My Panama excursion has gotten much closer to reality as I have made some good contacts who are helping me navigate it.
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Re: Researching real estate ... ( relocation )
Quote:
My Panama excursion has gotten much closer to reality as I have made some good contacts who are helping me navigate it.
Ultimately, any move away from US tax jurisdiction is going to result in a huge increase in 'unearned income' ... in this case US taxes that legally won't have to be paid on your 'earned income'. Talking out of school, moving way south of the border has more or less amounted to an extra $35-$40k per year in additional 'unearned income' thanks to legally avoiding having to pay US federal and NY state / city taxes on my ordinary income and qualified investment income. This savings will increase even more next year if the US cap gains and dividend tax rates are allowed to rise to pre-GWB tax cut levels ( which appears highly likely ).
Also, if you have 'nothing to hide' in the way of personal finances, the huge US IRS presence in Panama and the 'open book' nature of Panamanian bank accounts really doesn't mean anything.